Vengeance test key metric - player interest

JustLovely · September 12

aetherix8 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

And PvE'rs aren't victims in this. The PvP players are.

Oh my goodness. So the discussion completely degenerated into let's screw the PvEers and "we are victims".

Obviously, legit points are out of stock for now. We've basically covered it all it seems, both in favor and against, and we're now at a stage of some very sophisticated mental acrobatics to come up with a delirium tremens level of an "argument".

See y'all after run3 when we have actual valid points to discuss again.

What is your legit and valid point in this post I quoted? I happen to know that there are a lot of reasons to distrust ZOS' motives and intentions with vengeance. Just because you disagree with those reasons doesn't mean they are not legitimate.

JustLovely · September 12

Muizer wrote: »

Brian had a few words about the goal of Vengeance.

"The goal has always been to get Cyrodiil to what it should always have been, which is massive PvP warfare in a war zone of 3 alliances and we're trying to navigate the best way for this to happen"

As far as the devs are concerned, Vengeance is the new branch of PvP development. I suppose the current one may stick around as a legacy feature for a while.

Everything ZOS is doing with vengeance appears to be with the intention of making it the only option at some point in the future. They even went as far as to post a deceptive poll to misrepresent the popularity of vengeance after the first test. When they talk about vengeance they don't talk about it like it's a test. They talk about it like they are planning to replace current live cyrodiil with vengeance. That was the case again today during the live stream. They don't talk about it or deal with vengeance as though it's just a test.

aetherix8 · September 12

JustLovely wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

And PvE'rs aren't victims in this. The PvP players are.

Oh my goodness. So the discussion completely degenerated into let's screw the PvEers and "we are victims".

Obviously, legit points are out of stock for now. We've basically covered it all it seems, both in favor and against, and we're now at a stage of some very sophisticated mental acrobatics to come up with a delirium tremens level of an "argument".

See y'all after run3 when we have actual valid points to discuss again.

What is your legit and valid point in this post I quoted? I happen to know that there are a lot of reasons to distrust ZOS' motives and intentions with vengeance. Just because you disagree with those reasons doesn't mean they are not legitimate.

aetherix8 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc

There are many valid arguments indeed; you mention some, but your list isn't exhaustive.

Anyways, I was referring to the "PvE should get its own Vengeance testing" posts.

These aren't even arguments against Vengeance test, and those who suggest some PvE performance tests should open a dedicated thread, as it doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion about PvP performance tests.

xR3ACTORx · September 12

I'm not raging. I'm amused. Helldivers 2 is a good game.

As an Xbox EU player I can only laugh about making cyro a massive pvp warzone. How about a server merge before dreaming of that?

Someone asked for specific reason why people dislike vengeance instead of just stating they dislike it.

Here's mine:

Its boring, it's slow, and it's even more easier for me to kill people im vengeance. Too easy.

Don't make yourself illusions.
A skilled regular cyro player will wipe players in vengeance as well.

In the meantime I am putting my subscription on hold.

I mean why even paying for a dead server and a pvp test I am not interested in?

Muizer · September 12

JustLovely wrote: »

When they talk about vengeance they don't talk about it like it's a test. They talk about it like they are planning to replace current live cyrodiil with vengeance.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. The reason they stress Vengeance is a test is to reassure people they are not dealing with the final product but an iteration. This is a novel approach for ZOS so that is why they stressed it. You are right there is absolutely nothing in what they do or say that suggests the aim of the test is to learn things to improve current Cyrodiil". That's just something some people assumed would be the point. If you let go of that (unfounded) assumption, it's really pretty obvious and transparent where this is headed.

Iriidius · September 14

JustLovely wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Darethran wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I did benefit from those tests that led to no-proc RW - it resulted in a new player friendly environment to learn pvp and I was able to improve, although not as far as I would like to because it got aborted.

Am I the only one who thinks vengeance tests are radically different from other tests that zos have run in the past?

Edit spelling

No you're not, it's just the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players with silly broken sets & skills (always the new stuff that came with the latest DLC...) don't want that changed.

As someone who has played on/off since 2016 ZoS has done nothing like this with PvP before. I'm still so thirsty for third vengeance now that I got a taste of what PvP could have been all these years.

It's not "the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players...." That's what players who don't want to tackle the huge learning curve that is Cyrodiil PvP like to cry about. I agree it's a lot different than PvE, but it's supposed to be. There is supposed to be a skill gap. The daily PvP main players are supposed to be better and stronger than the "on and off" players such as yourself.

ZOS is going to lose most of the PvP vets if they mandate vengeance mode, and the PvE mains are not going to backfill the losses. Vengeance will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP for the most part. At least your admitting that you're only an off and on player. Those of us that PvP every day and that's what we log in to play will not play vengeance in any iteration.

The daily PvP players should be better than „on and off“ players by making better incombat decisions not by having better stats.
If you swap their accounts than you also swap their strength.

Not true.

Part of the skill gap in PvP comes from learning how to make strong builds and play to that builds strengths. It's not just get a couple OP sets and you automatically win....as the PvE mains keep saying is the only trick to being successful in Cyrodiil. Those that say the only trick is to get OP sets are saying that they don't PvP or understand the system as it's set up.

Most PvPers don‘t make their builds themself but get them from youtube, website or friends. Sure you have to know how to use them but the build source will probably explain that too and not all builds require actions that you wouldnt do in combat anyway.

If you are testing builds very often you will come to the conclusion you should have just taken the metamost build immediately. Even if you do not understand how exactly itis so strong you could still find out how to use it correctly

Wretchet Vitality or Rallyng Cry get procced automatically when using armor buff, R Vigor or Healing soul.
Pariah, orders wrath and oakfather don’t require activation at all and torc of ayleidking let you ignore managing and theorycrafting sets completely but requires long grind. Trouble is to get everything not to use it.

Iriidius · September 14

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I'm not raging. I'm amused. Helldivers 2 is a good game.

As an Xbox EU player I can only laugh about making cyro a massive pvp warzone. How about a server merge before dreaming of that?

Someone asked for specific reason why people dislike vengeance instead of just stating they dislike it.

Here's mine:

Its boring, it's slow, and it's even more easier for me to kill people im vengeance. Too easy.

Don't make yourself illusions.
A skilled regular cyro player will wipe players in vengeance as well.

In the meantime I am putting my subscription on hold.

I mean why even paying for a dead server and a pvp test I am not interested in?

Nice you succeed in Vengeance.
You just contradicted the narrative that Vengeance is noskill Zergfest where nobody dies.
Maybe players are ok with loosing by getting outplayed but not with getting oneshottet despite blocking with the same combo they hit the opponent before without him blocking.

Iriidius · September 14

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I'm not raging. I'm amused. Helldivers 2 is a good game.

As an Xbox EU player I can only laugh about making cyro a massive pvp warzone. How about a server merge before dreaming of that?

Someone asked for specific reason why people dislike vengeance instead of just stating they dislike it.

Here's mine:

Its boring, it's slow, and it's even more easier for me to kill people im vengeance. Too easy.

Don't make yourself illusions.
A skilled regular cyro player will wipe players in vengeance as well.

In the meantime I am putting my subscription on hold.

I mean why even paying for a dead server and a pvp test I am not interested in?

Strange that only Vengeance haters worry about Vengeance players getting farmed worse than on life where farming is downplayed while Vengeance players dont feel farmed and enjoy it much more than life. Somehow this worry doesnt seem to be about fun of Vengeanceplayers.

SaffronCitrusflower · 1:28AM

Iriidius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Darethran wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

I did benefit from those tests that led to no-proc RW - it resulted in a new player friendly environment to learn pvp and I was able to improve, although not as far as I would like to because it got aborted.

Am I the only one who thinks vengeance tests are radically different from other tests that zos have run in the past?

Edit spelling

No you're not, it's just the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players with silly broken sets & skills (always the new stuff that came with the latest DLC...) don't want that changed.

As someone who has played on/off since 2016 ZoS has done nothing like this with PvP before. I'm still so thirsty for third vengeance now that I got a taste of what PvP could have been all these years.

It's not "the outspoken few who want to continue dominating a small number of players...." That's what players who don't want to tackle the huge learning curve that is Cyrodiil PvP like to cry about. I agree it's a lot different than PvE, but it's supposed to be. There is supposed to be a skill gap. The daily PvP main players are supposed to be better and stronger than the "on and off" players such as yourself.

ZOS is going to lose most of the PvP vets if they mandate vengeance mode, and the PvE mains are not going to backfill the losses. Vengeance will be the end of Cyrodiil PvP for the most part. At least your admitting that you're only an off and on player. Those of us that PvP every day and that's what we log in to play will not play vengeance in any iteration.

The daily PvP players should be better than „on and off“ players by making better incombat decisions not by having better stats.
If you swap their accounts than you also swap their strength.

Not true.

Part of the skill gap in PvP comes from learning how to make strong builds and play to that builds strengths. It's not just get a couple OP sets and you automatically win....as the PvE mains keep saying is the only trick to being successful in Cyrodiil. Those that say the only trick is to get OP sets are saying that they don't PvP or understand the system as it's set up.

Most PvPers don‘t make their builds themself but get them from youtube, website or friends. Sure you have to know how to use them but the build source will probably explain that too and not all builds require actions that you wouldnt do in combat anyway.

If you are testing builds very often you will come to the conclusion you should have just taken the metamost build immediately. Even if you do not understand how exactly itis so strong you could still find out how to use it correctly

Wretchet Vitality or Rallyng Cry get procced automatically when using armor buff, R Vigor or Healing soul.
Pariah, orders wrath and oakfather don’t require activation at all and torc of ayleidking let you ignore managing and theorycrafting sets completely but requires long grind. Trouble is to get everything not to use it.

After reading your posts it's abundantly clear you do not PvP on any kind of regular basis and that you likely don't intend to much in the future. You just have some sort of vendetta against PvP for some reason, so you want to see it destroyed in it's current form. You have proven you don't know anything about how the current live PvP system works or how to be successful with the current system, so you want it gone in favor of something you think you'd like better.