Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Vengeance is a stellar good game mode for Cryrodiil.

The issue is not the gameplay, the issue is the lack of meaningful rewards. ESO has a terrible rewards structure in it's entirety (because they'd rather sell you the item on the crownstore/through crowncrates).

If Vengeance gave out meaningful rewards, then a ton of people would play it. Without those, I agree that it will die down significantly after people get burned doing the same thing over and over without any real reward.

But the no skill, no armor gameplay....is spot on, ESPECIALLY now with subclassing. Most folks do not like being free deaths to hardcore players. That chases them away from the game/from cyrodiil.

This is indeed a huge problem that devs massively underestimate. Progression and rewards are at the very core of mmorpg genre, it is what entices players to try and complete activities. And while this goes for all kinds of content in eso, pvp is probably even worse off, offering absolutely no special rewards to players. This is probably the main reason for pvp’s unpopularity

I wish devs would finally acknowledge this for a grave issue that it is

What kind of reward are you going to offer to players that have 10 years in a game with basically infinite gold, ap, items, etc?

Like crowns or quality of life fixes would be the only thing endgame players care about. Like make it so i don't have to swap characters because of goofy inventory rules or subclassing restrictions. IDK the only reward I want is a working cyrodil

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

I shouldn't like Vengeance. But I do because Cyro PvP has become so boring. Same "3,2,1 ult" ball groups, same lag spikes, everyone wearing the same gear and using the same skills. ZoS has made good changes. They removed cross-healing. They removed proc-sets. Then they brought them back lol. And here we are. All I can say is that I'm looking forward to the next Vengeance campaign.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

Vengeance is like the best thing for solo players lol. Live pvp is only zergs and ball groups. Unless you go to bgs it is a barren wasteland for casuals and solo players. Our solo 5 piece bonuses are worth 300-600wd whereas if you play in a group with group sets your 5 piece bonuses are worth 3k+ wd. Solo and casual players have literally been power crept out of existence. Before the game was designed to give tools to solo players with active skills to level the playing field when outnumbered. Now those have been stripped away and given to zergs and groups. Not only that but the fact that it is just passively boosting groups makes it worse......you can't mess up passive no brain stat boosts.

How can pvp tests do nothing positive? They hardly impact your gameplay as is being a week long test every 3 months. If anything, the fact that they are doing the tests shows that the pvp team within zos has been given more power or freedom after recent hierarchy changes. As they implement more systems as tests, they will hopefully balance out things like Foods being clearly better, mundus, enchants, etc.

---

Also the biggest perk, vengeance provides way more solo and 1vX fights on the forums here than there are actual fights in live cyrodil.

No. Just no.

I'm a primarily solo PvP player and have been most of the duration of the game. Nothing you posted here reflects what any of the other mainly solo PvP players I know think or what I think about vengeance.

LPapirius wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

Comped groups that think they are a ballgroup but aren’t still get much higher stats+healing+shielding than a soloplayer. Even if only 30% of population is ballgroups that is still enaugh to constantly farm the remaining 70% until they quit. While most ballgroup only play some(1-3) days a week there are enaugh ballgroups that they reach 30% of the population not only on some days but nearly every day.

And why are all Vengeanceadvocators not regularly playing buildPvP they oppose irrelevant/assumed to be generally uninterested in PvP and not playing Vengeance for more than a few weeks when most players advocating buildPvP rather quit than play in Vengeance they oppose?
You dismiss Xylena’s opinion for not playing since June but probably wouldnt have played yourself if Vengeance would have stayed.

You claim most PvPers hate Vengeance yet tell every PvPer advocating for it they are PvEr or have to stop advocating for it like they have duty to build PvP playerbase.

There are less than a handful of PvP mains pushing for vengeance mode. That's just the fact of it.

And there is SUPPOSED to be advantaged to playing in a group. That's how MMO's work. They're just not supposed to be as OP as ZOS has let them become.

There are more than a handful PvP mains pushing for vengeance mode even in this thread despite PvP mains getting carried by buildPvP therefore nerfing themself. Do you want a list?
And a lot more will become PvP main if Vengeance becomes permanent while half the haters are only PvPmain because carrybuilds allow them to kill players without without having to outplay them.



There is enaugh advantage to playing in a group to make it worth it even with everyone using solobuild or templates as you still have higher numbers at all time and can coordinate skills(not builds). Having a smallscale with everyone in solobuild still improves your experience from getting zerged down as soon as you come near an enemy group until you quit to farming zergs while rarely dying.

Playing with faction stack ungrouped or in pickup group is also massive multiplayer and available to everyone and much closer than what the PvPtrailer shows than running in a ballgroup.

That groupplayers think they are supposed to have advantage over players without group doesnt make it more fun for them to get farmed to the point it isnt an hard to resist encouragement to quit PvP.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

Vengeance is like the best thing for solo players lol. Live pvp is only zergs and ball groups. Unless you go to bgs it is a barren wasteland for casuals and solo players. Our solo 5 piece bonuses are worth 300-600wd whereas if you play in a group with group sets your 5 piece bonuses are worth 3k+ wd. Solo and casual players have literally been power crept out of existence. Before the game was designed to give tools to solo players with active skills to level the playing field when outnumbered. Now those have been stripped away and given to zergs and groups. Not only that but the fact that it is just passively boosting groups makes it worse......you can't mess up passive no brain stat boosts.

How can pvp tests do nothing positive? They hardly impact your gameplay as is being a week long test every 3 months. If anything, the fact that they are doing the tests shows that the pvp team within zos has been given more power or freedom after recent hierarchy changes. As they implement more systems as tests, they will hopefully balance out things like Foods being clearly better, mundus, enchants, etc.

---

Also the biggest perk, vengeance provides way more solo and 1vX fights on the forums here than there are actual fights in live cyrodil.

No. Just no.

I'm a primarily solo PvP player and have been most of the duration of the game. Nothing you posted here reflects what any of the other mainly solo PvP players I know think or what I think about vengeance.

On live there is only like a handful of people to fight, 80% the time its waiting around keep walls while ballgroups and guildzergs fight each other on the roof of a keep, nothing to praise. Vengeance had so many people I could sit at drakelow resources for nearly 6 hours straight pulling groups of 8+ various random people into towers or rocks.

The only major roadblock for solo players is that the aoe caps on damage and cc really hurt your turn and burn. Zos has already talked about potential aoe cap tests where damage may get higher caps than healing which would be a monumental change for solo players.

Vengeance being split rules from pve also has an insane solo potential for changes to reduce ticks on the server with possible changes like preventing stacking effects. Imagine if rules were put in place to prevent an entire zerg from running the same broken dlc proc set or dot to stack on you like how the game was designed back in the day.

Even just not having proc effect sets is a massive improvement for solo players so a zerg of 30 players casting 30 underpowered skills cant also be having 30 full damage proc effects going off on you randomly hitting at the same time. Their only output is how good they are at actually fighting you within the confines of the GCD combat system.

The problem is we need basic building choices to quell the big gripes. However this cant be added yet because we need skills to scale with stats instead of flat values. So at the very least we are 2 tests out before they add any basic passive choices like mundus, race, food. 2 tests, assuming they dont need to do other background and development tests before starting to complicate the player systems.

Iriidius wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

Players without suboptimal builds have no place in Cyrodiil. Players with friends in suboptimal builds have no place in Cyrodiil. Soloplayer have no place in Cyrodiil outside farming PvEr at questspots or homekeep farm but can join AvA in Vengeance.

Disbalance is the opposite skill. Not countering and still surviving a burstcombo then instakilling your opponent with half that combo while he blocks isn’t skill.

Hey, if you guys hate the open world PvP that ZOS created for ESO that's fine. What's not fine is lobbying ZOS with misrepresentations in an effort to get them to shut down the PvP the PvP mains like myself log in to play. Vengeance is a no skill zerg fest. The only thing that matters in vengeance is the size of your zerg. (and this ain't hollywood, so .....)

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

Vengeance is like the best thing for solo players lol. Live pvp is only zergs and ball groups. Unless you go to bgs it is a barren wasteland for casuals and solo players. Our solo 5 piece bonuses are worth 300-600wd whereas if you play in a group with group sets your 5 piece bonuses are worth 3k+ wd. Solo and casual players have literally been power crept out of existence. Before the game was designed to give tools to solo players with active skills to level the playing field when outnumbered. Now those have been stripped away and given to zergs and groups. Not only that but the fact that it is just passively boosting groups makes it worse......you can't mess up passive no brain stat boosts.

How can pvp tests do nothing positive? They hardly impact your gameplay as is being a week long test every 3 months. If anything, the fact that they are doing the tests shows that the pvp team within zos has been given more power or freedom after recent hierarchy changes. As they implement more systems as tests, they will hopefully balance out things like Foods being clearly better, mundus, enchants, etc.

---

Also the biggest perk, vengeance provides way more solo and 1vX fights on the forums here than there are actual fights in live cyrodil.

No. Just no.

I'm a primarily solo PvP player and have been most of the duration of the game. Nothing you posted here reflects what any of the other mainly solo PvP players I know think or what I think about vengeance.

On live there is only like a handful of people to fight, 80% the time its waiting around keep walls while ballgroups and guildzergs fight each other on the roof of a keep, nothing to praise. Vengeance had so many people I could sit at drakelow resources for nearly 6 hours straight pulling groups of 8+ various random people into towers or rocks.

The only major roadblock for solo players is that the aoe caps on damage and cc really hurt your turn and burn. Zos has already talked about potential aoe cap tests where damage may get higher caps than healing which would be a monumental change for solo players.

Vengeance being split rules from pve also has an insane solo potential for changes to reduce ticks on the server with possible changes like preventing stacking effects. Imagine if rules were put in place to prevent an entire zerg from running the same broken dlc proc set or dot to stack on you like how the game was designed back in the day.

Even just not having proc effect sets is a massive improvement for solo players so a zerg of 30 players casting 30 underpowered skills cant also be having 30 full damage proc effects going off on you randomly hitting at the same time. Their only output is how good they are at actually fighting you within the confines of the GCD combat system.

The problem is we need basic building choices to quell the big gripes. However this cant be added yet because we need skills to scale with stats instead of flat values. So at the very least we are 2 tests out before they add any basic passive choices like mundus, race, food. 2 tests, assuming they dont need to do other background and development tests before starting to complicate the player systems.

Iriidius wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

who has "no place to play" in current PvP? i mean, why? these tests do not do anything to us, nothing positive, if there would be a real deal with tests - i would notice it, nothing from Vengeance went to live (i know only one good thing and it's a target for target heals). Most likely it's just a job to look like they do something and thinking about something or trying to change current PvP to some sort of stupid boring zergrush which is not fun (and still, nothing disturbs players to zergrush in current PvP). There's nothing about ball groups, small scales, solo player (i am pretty sure devs hate solo pvpers).

Vengeance has no point of existence, beside it goes on forever once they done with "tests". But as i said: many players will leave, coz we play current PvP exactly because of this "disbalance", i mean, skill still matters.

Players without suboptimal builds have no place in Cyrodiil. Players with friends in suboptimal builds have no place in Cyrodiil. Soloplayer have no place in Cyrodiil outside farming PvEr at questspots or homekeep farm but can join AvA in Vengeance.

Disbalance is the opposite skill. Not countering and still surviving a burstcombo then instakilling your opponent with half that combo while he blocks isn’t skill.

Hey, if you guys hate the open world PvP that ZOS created for ESO that's fine. What's not fine is lobbying ZOS with misrepresentations in an effort to get them to shut down the PvP the PvP mains like myself log in to play. Vengeance is a no skill zerg fest. The only thing that matters in vengeance is the size of your zerg. (and this ain't hollywood, so .....)

if you hate the Vengeance PvP that ZOS created for ESO that's fine. What's not fine is lobbying ZOS with misrepresentations in an effort to get them to shut down the PvP the real PvPers like myself log in to play. Blackreach/GH is a no skill zerg fest. The only thing that matters in Blackreach/GH is the size of your zerg and your stats/build.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Progression and rewards are at the very core of mmorpg genre

Having to spend days/weeks grinding and prepping before you can PvP on a level playing field drives potential new players away. My spouse is finally interested in trying this game again after like 8 years because she can immediately jump into the action on Vengeance. Neither of us care about rewards, a good social PvP game is its own reward.

If you want a game that you can simply jump in without progression and growth then mmorpg isn’t the right genre, it’s just a fact.

Im only pvping since years. I have spoken in different discord chats about the new coming vengeance tests on console.

The tonus is overall the same ; People dont like it ane are playing something else then, while this is up.

Im sure there is people who are enjoying it and wish its getting permanently implemented.

It feels like for the most it would be a nail in the coffin and it would push a lot of people away from eso (pvp).

Maybe thats the plan? Less people, less lag?

Its maybe 1% of the players on the forum, most just play the game and dont want to have a deep dive into it, including forum registration and looking up and discuss things.

But overall the mood torwards vengeance, at least in the communities im in, is really negative.

<removed images due to profanity/cursing>

MincMincMinc wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Im only pvping since years. I have spoken in different discord chats about the new coming vengeance tests on console.

The tonus is overall the same ; People dont like it ane are playing something else then, while this is up.

Im sure there is people who are enjoying it and wish its getting permanently implemented.

It feels like for the most it would be a nail in the coffin and it would push a lot of people away from eso (pvp).

Maybe thats the plan? Less people, less lag?

Its maybe 1% of the players on the forum, most just play the game and dont want to have a deep dive into it, including forum registration and looking up and discuss things.

But overall the mood towards vengeance, at least in the communities im in, is really negative.

Depends on friend group really. Your circle of friends that all agree with each other of course are going to be your "majority" of players. For instance my BG community either doesnt care or is just waiting for more tests to bring other systems into the test like passives, morphs, sets. Newer players post summerset era have always played in the proc soup shitshow, so they see vengeance as dumbing down. My 20+ older guildies from 2014-2016 returned for the vengeance test and were reminded of old cyrodil before it got boiled down to procs and effects everywhere with unclear combat. Everyone seems to agree that they want builds to continue, and it is in the best interest of zos to have builds as a main stream of DLC funding

Also realize the survivor bias, if 90% of people leave a game because they hate something about it. The only people remaining apparently are fine or like the current game. Does this mean the game devs trying to go back somewhere in between are ruining it for everyone? No it just means they are ruining it for that remaining portion of players.

We are still in the early stages of vengeance where they are doing background tests and laying out basic skills, no wonder most people find it boring. This is why most games do closed alpha and beta testing.....doing this level of testing is boring for most people who just want a finished product. Right now the major benefits to be happy bout are the split away from PvE and the fact that we cleaned up the random effects that are unnecessary in most cases. By the time you start adding back in all the other systems, combat will basically be the same with newer more performative skills done across the board all at the same time.

I agree on everything of what you said, except that the people in the screenshot are neither my friends or i know them propper.

As i said, i dont know anyone really who enjoyes vengeance.

But that wont stop vengeance and i dont really care, i play expedition 33 while its up

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Kinda funny that they did this to themselves. Ideally test wise you want the daily lag inducing pvp players to abuse as best as they can. However they put the PvP players in a position where they are worried that if they play vengeance it would be seen as wanting vengeance as is.

I don't think this is accurate. There is the official feedback thread, and the form has plenty of room where players can complain about Vengeance.

"What you think of the simplified abilities?"
"What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?"
"Do you have any general feedback?"

Half the form is precisely giving players the opportunity to express their impressions, positive or negative.

So no, just because I participate it doesn't automatically mean I adore Vengeance. I can post my feedback and if I happen to hate Vengeance, list all the reasons why and illustrate my points with examples from the actual test.

Some players put themselves in a position where their voice might be less powerful if they don't participate. I mean, "I hate it" or "I love it" simply isn't as impactful if not supported by experience.

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Kinda funny that they did this to themselves. Ideally test wise you want the daily lag inducing pvp players to abuse as best as they can. However they put the PvP players in a position where they are worried that if they play vengeance it would be seen as wanting vengeance as is.

I don't think this is accurate. There is the official feedback thread, and the form has plenty of room where players can complain about Vengeance.

"What you think of the simplified abilities?"
"What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?"
"Do you have any general feedback?"

Half the form is precisely giving players the opportunity to express their impressions, positive or negative.

So no, just because I participate it doesn't automatically mean I adore Vengeance. I can post my feedback and if I happen to hate Vengeance, list all the reasons why and illustrate my points with examples from the actual test.

Some players put themselves in a position where their voice might be less powerful if they don't participate. I mean, "I hate it" or "I love it" simply isn't as impactful if not supported by experience.

What is not accurate? my first part of that statement is that zos ideally should use the same lag inducing players for their lag test. Data testing wise it is the only way to get accurate data. Lvl10 newbies that just light attack won't induce the same strain on the server as ball group players stacking within 5m of crown spamming skills that are all aoe smartheals with 20 proc effects going off per cast per player.

Otherwise if you mean the second part. I am just pointing out that if a company sees people interacting with one product over another, they may tend to lean towards the higher interest. So a lot of people are just avoiding the test in protest in hopes the lower turnout sends a message.

I also think everyone should participate because the above boycott mentality works against these boycott people. The most important aspect is that endgame PvPers strain the server differently. If zos bases their performance according to player POPULATION this data is not going to be properly representative. Because 1k pvp players strain the server differently than 1k new players. So by boycotting the test, you are actually leaving your player slot open to a less efficient player helping vengeance perform better and seem more appealing to zos.

At least the test gives you grounds to praise the parts you like and reject the parts you don't. For instance I think the pve and pvp split is a good way for pvp to get specific performative rules and avoid pve dlc power creep. I also think the healing playstyles are better in vengeance than live for the fact that there are more targeted aimed heals instead of automatic aoe smartheals. However the lack of build systems is a clear issue that is the main focal point of everyone's complaining. From the test engineer side of things I understand why they need to do these baseline tests in the order they are planning, but most people don't have the same background as me. Which is why i think it is silly to complain since it is just not possible to add sets in until other systems are tested in order. Like sets and stats do nothing if skills dont scale off of them......but before we change stats we need to test fat value skills, then test skills based on base stats, THEN we can test skills that are based on stats that change with sets.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Kinda funny that they did this to themselves. Ideally test wise you want the daily lag inducing pvp players to abuse as best as they can. However they put the PvP players in a position where they are worried that if they play vengeance it would be seen as wanting vengeance as is.

I don't think this is accurate. There is the official feedback thread, and the form has plenty of room where players can complain about Vengeance.

"What you think of the simplified abilities?"
"What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?"
"Do you have any general feedback?"

Half the form is precisely giving players the opportunity to express their impressions, positive or negative.

So no, just because I participate it doesn't automatically mean I adore Vengeance. I can post my feedback and if I happen to hate Vengeance, list all the reasons why and illustrate my points with examples from the actual test.

Some players put themselves in a position where their voice might be less powerful if they don't participate. I mean, "I hate it" or "I love it" simply isn't as impactful if not supported by experience.

What is not accurate? my first part of that statement is that zos ideally should use the same lag inducing players for their lag test. Data testing wise it is the only way to get accurate data. Lvl10 newbies that just light attack won't induce the same strain on the server as ball group players stacking within 5m of crown spamming skills that are all aoe smartheals with 20 proc effects going off per cast per player.

Otherwise if you mean the second part. I am just pointing out that if a company sees people interacting with one product over another, they may tend to lean towards the higher interest. So a lot of people are just avoiding the test in protest in hopes the lower turnout sends a message.

I also think everyone should participate because the above boycott mentality works against these boycott people. The most important aspect is that endgame PvPers strain the server differently. If zos bases their performance according to player POPULATION this data is not going to be properly representative. Because 1k pvp players strain the server differently than 1k new players. So by boycotting the test, you are actually leaving your player slot open to a less efficient player helping vengeance perform better and seem more appealing to zos.

At least the test gives you grounds to praise the parts you like and reject the parts you don't. For instance I think the pve and pvp split is a good way for pvp to get specific performative rules and avoid pve dlc power creep. I also think the healing playstyles are better in vengeance than live for the fact that there are more targeted aimed heals instead of automatic aoe smartheals. However the lack of build systems is a clear issue that is the main focal point of everyone's complaining. From the test engineer side of things I understand why they need to do these baseline tests in the order they are planning, but most people don't have the same background as me. Which is why i think it is silly to complain since it is just not possible to add sets in until other systems are tested in order. Like sets and stats do nothing if skills dont scale off of them......but before we change stats we need to test fat value skills, then test skills based on base stats, THEN we can test skills that are based on stats that change with sets.

In general, I tend to agree with your position on Vengeance and I especially appreciate your argumentation. You make some real good points. I guess I should have only quoted the actual thing I was referring to, which is “ZOS put players in a position X”.
Now that you’ve developed further your idea, I see better what brought you there.

I still think that players put themselves in such place by themselves rather than being placed by ZOS. And that whatever “impressions” I might be giving to the company by participating, I have the official feedback thread where I can explain broadly and clearly to the company that I don’t like what they are doing despite taking part. And that I only take part coz I’m sick and tired of getting defeated by lag but otherwise I don’t want a new mode, if that’s the case. That’s it, this is pretty straightforward.

Participate if you want a better performance. Make sure you leave a feedback where you explain clearly that you hate the test and you don’t want it to be a thing ever. Otherwise you’re just boycotting yourself, unreasonable PvP mains.

Edit grammar

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Ok yeah we are on the same page then. I was confused for a second there at what you were commenting towards.

I should drink more than 2 coffees before posting on the forums it seems.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think at best the current vengeance would only be good for a forced learning environment for people under lvl 50. Maybe even the lower CP ranges too. These players could be locked from joining GH so they can learn in a better environment. If someone truly wants to skip ahead to greyhost on a burner new account, they will be smart enough and have the knowledge to farm past in this niche scenario so its on them for doing that.

For Vet pvp you need to have the other systems like sets, morphs, enchants, alchemy. Its the core of the game. Its also the core of zos's income to release dlc sets so people keep paying. Otherwise current vengeance would remove all of the QoL issues for pvp that make you get eso+

Would it be necessarily bad to replace the unmorphed skills with vengeance unmorphed skills and keep the rest of the game the same? The benefits are clean fresh code that hasnt been copy and pasted together over 15 years, while also removing a layer of power creep uniformly across everyone equally. The problem comes when you look at the balance of these skills vs proc set effects (basically sets that do a skill like effect).

Would it be bad to rebalance the mundus system as they add it into the testing? Literally the regen mundus gives more than the WD mundus even though they should be the same based on the 2-4 piece standard

Would it be bad to balance out the triglyph armor enchants and add others so people dont just get power crept and all run the same stats?

Would it be bad to rework and balance out food to be literally any sort of standard?

All these can add way more depth to build choices as they add them in future tests.

No-proc campaign was a very good learning environment, from my PoV. Just badly mishandled by ZOS; it was never truly their idea I guess. And it was laggy too. Current Vengeance is just a test; any permanent learner mode should have pretty much all the same systems enabled, including sets. I mean this entire game revolves around builds, PvE or PvP, so mode without sets, enchants, traits, etc. doesn't make much sense. I would welcome a version where sets with more than 5 lines of 5 piece bonus are excluded though. That would be more new player friendly.

aetherix8 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Ok yeah we are on the same page then. I was confused for a second there at what you were commenting towards.

I should drink more than 2 coffees before posting on the forums it seems.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think at best the current vengeance would only be good for a forced learning environment for people under lvl 50. Maybe even the lower CP ranges too. These players could be locked from joining GH so they can learn in a better environment. If someone truly wants to skip ahead to greyhost on a burner new account, they will be smart enough and have the knowledge to farm past in this niche scenario so its on them for doing that.

For Vet pvp you need to have the other systems like sets, morphs, enchants, alchemy. Its the core of the game. Its also the core of zos's income to release dlc sets so people keep paying. Otherwise current vengeance would remove all of the QoL issues for pvp that make you get eso+

Would it be necessarily bad to replace the unmorphed skills with vengeance unmorphed skills and keep the rest of the game the same? The benefits are clean fresh code that hasnt been copy and pasted together over 15 years, while also removing a layer of power creep uniformly across everyone equally. The problem comes when you look at the balance of these skills vs proc set effects (basically sets that do a skill like effect).

Would it be bad to rebalance the mundus system as they add it into the testing? Literally the regen mundus gives more than the WD mundus even though they should be the same based on the 2-4 piece standard

Would it be bad to balance out the triglyph armor enchants and add others so people dont just get power crept and all run the same stats?

Would it be bad to rework and balance out food to be literally any sort of standard?

All these can add way more depth to build choices as they add them in future tests.

No-proc campaign was a very good learning environment, from my PoV. Just badly mishandled by ZOS; it was never truly their idea I guess. And it was laggy too. Current Vengeance is just a test; any permanent learner mode should have pretty much all the same systems enabled, including sets. I mean this entire game revolves around builds, PvE or PvP, so mode without sets, enchants, traits, etc. doesn't make much sense. I would welcome a version where sets with more than 5 lines of 5 piece bonus are excluded though. That would be more new player friendly.

The problem with noproc was that even endgame theory crafters had to question what worked in the campaign, impossible to expect new players to understand what was going on. I could see the vengeance pve and pvp split making more PvP centered sets available on a vendor or crafting stations in cyrodil. Can also serve to train new players into crafting and what not. You just cant design around a new player needing 5 wiki pages to tell them what gear and items work might work.

---

Likely what they may or may never find is that the issue lies more with game rules and systems compounding. People keep thinking it is a one dimensional variable that Oh it is proc sets causing it or it is aoe or maybe it is dots. More likely it is

• an aoe skill hits 10 people
• it does 30 dot ticks
• it debuffs the enemy counting into each damage tick for 30s
• each tick can proc a status effect that does 4 different effects and ticks every 4s
• Each tick can any of all those people 4 sets that can proc and do other effects
• It buffs every ally in 20m
• etc

What doesn't exist any more is various design standards the original team had in place. Maybe newer members never knew the reasoning. You can find ways to cut out many calculations at each level.

• maybe spammable skills like surprise attack or dizzy swing go back to being simpler and do not have 3-4 effects on them with paragraph explanations. These animations can be kept simple and performative while also having more important animations like CC being the most visible and understood. Then more rarely used higher cost skills like streak would be later on in the tree.
• Maybe less skills have aoe elements that dont need them. Maybe costs are higher and ramp
• Maybe dots hots and effects do not stack like they used to
• Maybe status effects should be simplified non stacking debuffs applied by certain actions
• Maybe heals need to be more aimed single targets like their damage counterparts are, instead of giant aoe conal smart heals that go through walls
• Maybe aoe heals and buffs shouldnt transfer outside of group, but the targeted simplified ones can.
• Maybe group sets need to be far more situational and shorter duration instead of giving a constant 1500-3000wd bonus per 5 piece with 100% uptime.
• maybe aoe dot skills shouldnt update each tick and should snapshot stats at cast.

There are so many standard rule changes that could be done to drastically save resources while barely affecting actual gameplay.