Vengeance – An Unsustainable False Positive

Unholy_Holywarrior

the real issue with pvp is the crossclassing, everyone is invisible lightning guy with pets that absorb your stuns even though youre not aiming at the pets, who teleport stun while flying around spamming AOE and stunlocks with seemingly infinite stam for infinite barrel roll, or theyre completely immune to stuns, while they blast you for 20k damage, while you do 300 damage per hit to them... i also think most of the high level players script break free/stunlock, because when you can actually stun them, they seem to break free before even hitting the ground and not even breaking their stride...

ArchMikem

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use. The complaints against them will continue. The cycle never ends.

xylena_lazarow

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

GloatingSwine

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

99% of Vengeance is unstoppable doomtrains zerging from fort to fort inevitably capturing them without using most of the siege mechanics because sheer mass of bodies overwhelms the need for them whilst someone else's doomtrain inevitably captures a different fort and then they swap. Successful defences against the enemy mass are rare as hen's teeth because the distance between forts is too long and the attacker gets much more benefit from mass than the defender.

And it's fun but wouldn't hold interest long term.

(Vengeance in something like its current fixed-loadout form as an intermittently recurring event once the testing is finished will get more engagement to the mode than other events though).

Getsugatenso

Revenge is only for those without the ability to think of a build

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Really gotta push zos to try some other game rule changes as they add more systems back into the game.

Is there something the entire player base wants? We got Meatbags by popular request. I'd avoid anything too complicated sounding or too overly specific. My own posts like this have focused on two things, the first being Resto heal stacking in large scale. Meatbags help, but with the damage AoE caps stuck the same as the healing AoE caps, it's already become too easy to stall fights by stacking healers, a very hated problem on Full Build PvP also.

Second is NB infinite sustain with Siphoning + Healy Cloak breaking the small scale meta. Now that you can round out your kit for whatever playstyle, there's little to no reason to play anything but NB in Vengeance small scale.

The problem is the likely changes that are needed WILL NOT be wanted by the playerbase. What is the biggest cluster of a skill calculation we can think of and then how to reduce or limit or shut down each step. Then think how can we limit one button click from becoming hundreds of calculations or going into a runaway events DURING GROUP play, but still act fine for solo or smallman gameplay.

• Aoe - maybe hits 1 to infinite players
• Over time ticks could tick 1 to hundreds of times
• Effects lasts over time and must be accounted for in every future calc hundreds or thousands of times
• Proc status effect recalculate each hit hundreds or thousands of times

These are just broad examples of course, but all of which either existed before or are talked about constantly. Most of them are counter-intuitive in nature because they aim to prevent the mechanic from happening. Because of this, most people would read these and just say oh well that makes no sense lets get rid of these exceptions so everything is equal......so here we are in 2025 wondering why there is lag

• Aoe caps are completely opposite to the point of hitting an aoe skill
• Over time effect stacking limitations would make some players useless essentially
• Cross healing and buffing blockers for players in groups over 5 players puts strange limits that otherwise doesn't exist
• Innate proc effects like status effects shouldn't exist for all damage types. If the majority of the skills were phys or mag damage for instance you would be far less likely to see the server do these extra calculations.

So ideally you need to find ways to allow these mechanics to exist, but not cross pollinate during group play.

MincMincMinc

GloatingSwine wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

99% of Vengeance is unstoppable doomtrains zerging from fort to fort inevitably capturing them without using most of the siege mechanics because sheer mass of bodies overwhelms the need for them whilst someone else's doomtrain inevitably captures a different fort and then they swap. Successful defences against the enemy mass are rare as hen's teeth because the distance between forts is too long and the attacker gets much more benefit from mass than the defender.

And it's fun but wouldn't hold interest long term.

(Vengeance in something like its current fixed-loadout form as an intermittently recurring event once the testing is finished will get more engagement to the mode than other events though).

You have to remember that they are essentially redesigning the game from the ground up......probably not a bad thing after 15+ years of devs pulling and tugging knotted code and interns copy and pasting things all over the place. The reality is that systems like sets and bonuses are still probably several tests out.

• make base skills
• make morphs
• make damage based on stats ( right now it is just flat numbers like oblivion damage)
• Bring simply stat changes like mundus, food, and passives
• simple gear armor weights and enchants
• basic nonproc armor sets
• stat proc armor sets
• Proc effects like proc effect set, or weapon enchants, or weapon poisons, or status effects
• Group sets

So people are going to be mad and conspiratorial towards vengeance for a while considering we are on a 3 month test schedule. This even assumes that they won't do rule change tests somewhere in this list for things like no cross healing outside of groups, or no over time effect stacking, or no smart healing, or hots cleansing themselves at full hp, etc.

Getsugatenso wrote: »

Revenge is only for those without the ability to think of a build

Honestly i think alot of the hate and love comes from the players that prefer the build side of eso or players that enjoy the fighting game like combat. The players that enjoy both can see the benefit to cleaner combat, but also are scared of losing the build layer. Ideally the game has a balance between how much your build matters and how much your actual player input and skill use matters. This goes for any system in the game, how does XYZ matter towards your output:

• Player skill and combat knowledge
• Ability weaving
• Mechanical reflexes
• Build knowledge
• Build progression
• Proc sets and status effects vs player input

Einar_Hrafnarsson

Well personally i like Vengeance and i literally only play ESO when Vengeance is active. I am so SICK of Ball groups camping the same keep for 2 Hours.

xylena_lazarow

GloatingSwine wrote: »

99% of Live is unstoppable doomtrains zerging from fort to fort inevitably capturing them without using most of the siege mechanics

So it's at worst a sidegrade. At least Vengeance gets rid of the bull crap burying the game itself.

Getsugatenso wrote: »

Revenge is only for those without the ability to think of a build

Vengeance has builds now. Class + Weapons + Skills, so you have many playstyles to choose from.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The problem is the likely changes that are needed WILL NOT be wanted by the playerbase.

Never stopped them before.

Doragren

Performance isnt even that bad, we dont need Vengeance!!!

Fix ball groups (Cross healing vigors and rapid regens) and you will see huge performance increase

AngryPenguin

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

xylena_lazarow

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

Einar_Hrafnarsson

The Hybrid patch was the beginning of the end. Now everybody is a Tank, Healer and DPS at the same time which led to boring, stagnant and never ending fights as well as ball groups camping a keep for two hours.

AngryPenguin

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

xylena_lazarow

AngryPenguin wrote: »

You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate?

Because the remaining daily PvPers are a tiny fraction of what used to be. Vengeance 1 showed the potential of a new Cyro ruleset and mechanical rebuild, which is the "simplest" fix to the layers upon layers of tangles of problems on Live. Something like "heal stacking" is dozens and dozens of smaller problems forming one giant oozing mass of problem.

Vengeance 1 was also the most I've ever seen on the field in this game since 2014. We've never fielded as many as we had in the beginning, poor performance and painful nonsensical combat changes gradually ate away at the player base, until I saw the 150-200+ per side on Vengeance 1 myself, crap mechanics and all, it was unreal. I was hating on the whole concept of Vengeance for a whole month prior, but I did promise I'd change my stance if Vengeance showed promise.

GloatingSwine

MincMincMinc wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

99% of Vengeance is unstoppable doomtrains zerging from fort to fort inevitably capturing them without using most of the siege mechanics because sheer mass of bodies overwhelms the need for them whilst someone else's doomtrain inevitably captures a different fort and then they swap. Successful defences against the enemy mass are rare as hen's teeth because the distance between forts is too long and the attacker gets much more benefit from mass than the defender.

And it's fun but wouldn't hold interest long term.

(Vengeance in something like its current fixed-loadout form as an intermittently recurring event once the testing is finished will get more engagement to the mode than other events though).

You have to remember that they are essentially redesigning the game from the ground up......probably not a bad thing after 15+ years of devs pulling and tugging knotted code and interns copy and pasting things all over the place. The reality is that systems like sets and bonuses are still probably several tests out.

• make base skills
• make morphs
• make damage based on stats ( right now it is just flat numbers like oblivion damage)
• Bring simply stat changes like mundus, food, and passives
• simple gear armor weights and enchants
• basic nonproc armor sets
• stat proc armor sets
• Proc effects like proc effect set, or weapon enchants, or weapon poisons, or status effects
• Group sets

So people are going to be mad and conspiratorial towards vengeance for a while considering we are on a 3 month test schedule. This even assumes that they won't do rule change tests somewhere in this list for things like no cross healing outside of groups, or no over time effect stacking, or no smart healing, or hots cleansing themselves at full hp, etc.

I was more talking about how the gameplay loop of vengeance is driven more by its high population relative to normal Cyrodiil, that's what generates the giant doomtrains that overwhelm the utility of siege devices and make attacker highly favoured at forts.

xylena_lazarow

GloatingSwine wrote: »

overwhelm the utility of siege devices

So exactly the same as what a mere 12 guys stacking defensive effects can do on Live.

MincMincMinc

GloatingSwine wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

No matter what or how PvP is made, there will always be found an "I Win Button" build the meta chasers will use.

Literally the job of PvP devs to make sure this doesn't happen. There's no i-win button in Vengeance.

99% of Vengeance is unstoppable doomtrains zerging from fort to fort inevitably capturing them without using most of the siege mechanics because sheer mass of bodies overwhelms the need for them whilst someone else's doomtrain inevitably captures a different fort and then they swap. Successful defences against the enemy mass are rare as hen's teeth because the distance between forts is too long and the attacker gets much more benefit from mass than the defender.

And it's fun but wouldn't hold interest long term.

(Vengeance in something like its current fixed-loadout form as an intermittently recurring event once the testing is finished will get more engagement to the mode than other events though).

You have to remember that they are essentially redesigning the game from the ground up......probably not a bad thing after 15+ years of devs pulling and tugging knotted code and interns copy and pasting things all over the place. The reality is that systems like sets and bonuses are still probably several tests out.

• make base skills
• make morphs
• make damage based on stats ( right now it is just flat numbers like oblivion damage)
• Bring simply stat changes like mundus, food, and passives
• simple gear armor weights and enchants
• basic nonproc armor sets
• stat proc armor sets
• Proc effects like proc effect set, or weapon enchants, or weapon poisons, or status effects
• Group sets

So people are going to be mad and conspiratorial towards vengeance for a while considering we are on a 3 month test schedule. This even assumes that they won't do rule change tests somewhere in this list for things like no cross healing outside of groups, or no over time effect stacking, or no smart healing, or hots cleansing themselves at full hp, etc.

I was more talking about how the gameplay loop of vengeance is driven more by its high population relative to normal Cyrodiil, that's what generates the giant doomtrains that overwhelm the utility of siege devices and make attacker highly favoured at forts.

Oh sure, there could be rebalances for the seige vs the playercount. The population though is what it should be though. Now its a matter of what systems are going to bring issues as they add them back in.

Or they should just remake the whole zone since they are talking about the base game refreshes. Maybe make better keep assets or literally any difference between them. Something like aleswell could have more townhouses around it for city fighting. Ash could be built into the mountain. Allessia could be on the river. IDk shake things up to be more interesting. Maybe more transit lines to connect the outer keeps and towns to trikeeps. There was enough people in vengeance that each direction could have more transitus lines to fight over. Spreading out the players makes the game feel less like mount simulator and helps dilute the potential lag

MincMincMinc

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

Yeah the pop died to zos hitting a brickwall and the corporate overlords thinking it was not worth the risk to resolve the issue when they could just guaranteed pump out more content for pve.

Now adays though group mechanics and interactions are just the nail in the coffin. Cyrodil basically has two playerbases. You have the solo/smallman/pugzergs ......... vs the comp ballgroups and comp guildgroups. Normally this already existed, but the fact zos pushed so many stacking stat bonuses, hots, shields, effects, etc that they just power crept these players 10-100x. When they were already stronger than the others numerically and build knowledge wise.

I mean does it make sense to give more calculations on top of more calculations to your most taxing population base? I mean it already didnt make sense to disadvantage the solo and casual players more while buffing the already advantaged comp groups.

Æthërnüm

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

aetherix8

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Being really good (as in interesting/engaging/fun) isn't the point of Vengeance atm. Since V1 PTS, players have been complaining about balance issues, and pointing out that even if it is only a test, it still needs to be fun to get high and sustained participation. But ZOS replied along these lines "it's a performance test, balance isn't our focus rn". So here we are.
And rewards aren't that great, I mean it's mostly AP.

I'm pretty confident that Vengeance "itself", as we know it so far, isn't the future of Cyrodiil. There will likely be more tests with more systems, and eventually with sets; the mode will evolve.
Hopefully, it will reach a point where it becomes really good to both, players who enjoy current PvP and players who have no place to play in current PvP.

Iriidius

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

Comped groups that think they are a ballgroup but aren’t still get much higher stats+healing+shielding than a soloplayer. Even if only 30% of population is ballgroups that is still enaugh to constantly farm the remaining 70% until they quit. While most ballgroup only play some(1-3) days a week there are enaugh ballgroups that they reach 30% of the population not only on some days but nearly every day.

And why are all Vengeanceadvocators not regularly playing buildPvP they oppose irrelevant/assumed to be generally uninterested in PvP and not playing Vengeance for more than a few weeks when most players advocating buildPvP rather quit than play in Vengeance they oppose?
You dismiss Xylena’s opinion for not playing since June but probably wouldnt have played yourself if Vengeance would have stayed.

You claim most PvPers hate Vengeance yet tell every PvPer advocating for it they are PvEr or have to stop advocating for it like they have duty to build PvP playerbase.

Iriidius

Æthërnüm wrote: »

all population of Vengeance based on event they actually put into the game for the duration. Last Vengeance i've seen (second one) on EU was quite bad, i mean, 1-2 days of lock and then numbers significantly dropped for the rest of the time.

What makes me think that whole "positive" side of Vengeance is not that it is really good, but because it has rewards. Me myself wasn't participating that crap and won't, once they make it permanent - i leave the game. Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

So Vengeance population is bad because they cant fill triple size campaign after a few days when live PvP cant fill third and very rarely second campaign outside event and even last MYM the population was barely higher than in Vengeance?

Maybe you can have fun 1vXing PvEplayer thinking they can take homekeep ressoursse for endeavour without having to PvP and avoiding enemy PvPers yourself.
But going solo where the action is gets you zerged by both zergs and „honorable“ smallscale/ballgroup (who afterwards claim you are trash zergling).
In Vengeance at least zergs fight other zergs and you can always join one while on live you have no teammates unless you bring them yourself but still have to fight other teams.

Bogaisha

2025 ball group players arguing about ESO ball groups in 2025 is like a bunch of gray parsers in Classic WoW fighting.

LPapirius

Iriidius wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

Comped groups that think they are a ballgroup but aren’t still get much higher stats+healing+shielding than a soloplayer. Even if only 30% of population is ballgroups that is still enaugh to constantly farm the remaining 70% until they quit. While most ballgroup only play some(1-3) days a week there are enaugh ballgroups that they reach 30% of the population not only on some days but nearly every day.

And why are all Vengeanceadvocators not regularly playing buildPvP they oppose irrelevant/assumed to be generally uninterested in PvP and not playing Vengeance for more than a few weeks when most players advocating buildPvP rather quit than play in Vengeance they oppose?
You dismiss Xylena’s opinion for not playing since June but probably wouldnt have played yourself if Vengeance would have stayed.

You claim most PvPers hate Vengeance yet tell every PvPer advocating for it they are PvEr or have to stop advocating for it like they have duty to build PvP playerbase.

There are less than a handful of PvP mains pushing for vengeance mode. That's just the fact of it.

And there is SUPPOSED to be advantaged to playing in a group. That's how MMO's work. They're just not supposed to be as OP as ZOS has let them become.

xylena_lazarow

Æthërnüm wrote: »

Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Huh? 1vX is definitely doable on Vengeance. I remember consistently winning open field 1v2 against mid players on Vengeance 1 playing Warden with only the class skill lines. Adding the generic lines increases the skill ceiling (and therefore skill gap) by a lot for higher 1vX, as would the very skilled decision of "just play NB bro lol."

LPapirius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Æthërnüm wrote: »

Pretty upset to admit, that it may be future of PvP (Vengeance itself) where i have no place to play (i am solo old vXer).

Huh? 1vX is definitely doable on Vengeance. I remember consistently winning open field 1v2 against mid players on Vengeance 1 playing Warden with only the class skill lines. Adding the generic lines increases the skill ceiling (and therefore skill gap) by a lot for higher 1vX, as would the very skilled decision of "just play NB bro lol."

I thought "just play NB bro" was the one single skill there was to doing well in vengeance.

xylena_lazarow

LPapirius wrote: »

I thought "just play NB bro" was the one single skill there was to doing well in vengeance.

Huh? Yeah NB is busted in smallscale, but it's not an auto win. It's PvP, everything takes skill.

MincMincMinc

LPapirius wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

vengeance is the "Nobody wins" button.

Catering to comp groups resulted in a dead game, so now they need to give the casual zergers a win. They're the bulk of the Cyro player base, so that's the only way this turns around, and that's why I'm pro-Vengeance. It's the best chance for the game to survive. I loved the Live build system for years but it's beyond the point of no return, there's no fixing it.

It isn't the comped groups that killed the Cyodiil population. I think you know that. You've been here for the duration. It was horribly bad performance that killed PvP for most of us. Comped groups, even today, make up less than half the population. Most groups that think they're ball groups aren't. Maybe 30% of the players actually play in a comped ball group, and that's only during prime time on some days. And since when has ZOS catered to anything PvP, let alone ball groups?

I get it. Not everyone is welcome in a group. But that doesn't mean the best business choice going forward is to run off the vast majority of those of us who still play PvP daily or cater to the handful that actually like vengeance. You said yourself you don't play ESO anymore since June, so why keep lobbying for a change you know most of the remaining daily PvP players hate? You're making it seem like a personal thing you have against those of us left that still enjoy the game.

Those of us that still play are still mystified as to why ZOS has made ZERO effort to limit cross healing and shield stacking. It's a much simpler fix than reinventing the wheel....a square wheel in the case of vengeance. Vengeance isn't the only option for the future of Cyodiil. They could always try what almost the entire PvP population has been begging them to try for years.

Comped groups that think they are a ballgroup but aren’t still get much higher stats+healing+shielding than a soloplayer. Even if only 30% of population is ballgroups that is still enaugh to constantly farm the remaining 70% until they quit. While most ballgroup only play some(1-3) days a week there are enaugh ballgroups that they reach 30% of the population not only on some days but nearly every day.

And why are all Vengeanceadvocators not regularly playing buildPvP they oppose irrelevant/assumed to be generally uninterested in PvP and not playing Vengeance for more than a few weeks when most players advocating buildPvP rather quit than play in Vengeance they oppose?
You dismiss Xylena’s opinion for not playing since June but probably wouldnt have played yourself if Vengeance would have stayed.

You claim most PvPers hate Vengeance yet tell every PvPer advocating for it they are PvEr or have to stop advocating for it like they have duty to build PvP playerbase.

There are less than a handful of PvP mains pushing for vengeance mode. That's just the fact of it.

And there is SUPPOSED to be advantaged to playing in a group. That's how MMO's work. They're just not supposed to be as OP as ZOS has let them become.

Dude there are no statistics on this, its all random bias whether you think everyone is for it or against it. Personally I had about 15-20 people come back to the game just to come play vengeance and they are all booking their calendars to not miss the next one. All of which were solo 1vX smallman duelist players. ESO has two main systems, the combat and the build system. Plenty of people enjoyed the older more simple clear and concise non bloated combat. For instance some people like to play Super Smash bros with items, and some people prefer the more raw fighting game..........Or some people just realistically know that it is a test and don't fall for conspiracy drama.


The advantage for playing in a group is the population 2 players is 100% more efficient than one. Before the 1 player would have tools to help even the odds like wings or Ball of lightning or sap essence sustain. However now we have the problem of 10 players is already 10x stronger......but if each one wears a set that scales with more group members it is like fighting 100 players.
A solo player is worth 300wd on a 5 piece
A player in a group of 10x wearing a group 5 piece essentially has a set that is worth 3kwd......I wish I had that for 1vX

Zyaneth_Bal

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Vengeance is a stellar good game mode for Cryrodiil.

The issue is not the gameplay, the issue is the lack of meaningful rewards. ESO has a terrible rewards structure in it's entirety (because they'd rather sell you the item on the crownstore/through crowncrates).

If Vengeance gave out meaningful rewards, then a ton of people would play it. Without those, I agree that it will die down significantly after people get burned doing the same thing over and over without any real reward.

But the no skill, no armor gameplay....is spot on, ESPECIALLY now with subclassing. Most folks do not like being free deaths to hardcore players. That chases them away from the game/from cyrodiil.

This is indeed a huge problem that devs massively underestimate. Progression and rewards are at the very core of mmorpg genre, it is what entices players to try and complete activities. And while this goes for all kinds of content in eso, pvp is probably even worse off, offering absolutely no special rewards to players. This is probably the main reason for pvp’s unpopularity

I wish devs would finally acknowledge this for a grave issue that it is