Vengeance – An Unsustainable False Positive

Treeshka

I joined the previous Vengeance but only a few times.
Believe it or not but what put me off was unable to do any quests. I mainly do Cyrodiil for the daily medal. If this Vengeance campaign also blocks players from quests. I will not be participating thoroughly.

LadyGP

MasterSpatula wrote: »

For me, PVP's biggest problem isn't lag; it's imbalance. Vengeance addressed both.

There were lots of things missing in Vengeance that I genuinely missed from PVP, but none of them could outweigh the sheer joy of tanky builds no longer doing the same damage as glass cannons, not getting bulldozed by untouchable ball groups, and actually being able to repair doors without worrying about getting bombed while I was stuck in an animation and unable to respond.

It feels, to me, like much of the hostility to Vengeance comes from those who are upset that Vengeance doesn't allow them to do the precise thing that killed all the joy in PVP for me.

I disagree - vengeance did not address both. It doesn't fix balance at all.. it doesn't even come close to it.

I'd argue the vast majority of people "like" veng because 1) the performance is insanley good compared to how it was and 2) it gets rid of ball groups.

Which ZoS has said they don't want to alienate a section of their community. They will rework the skills, the sets, etc. Ball groups will still be a thing in some compacity (although I hope we are easier to kill.. by alot).

moderatelyfatman

minnowfaun wrote: »

The Vengeance test mode experience is not what you’ll get should it become a live playable mode. Here’s why.

During Vengeance (Round 1) many players new to Cyro and even the Lead PVP Developer have said “this” is what we want to see.* It seems that the ‘record population’ was being conflated with success and popularity when in fact, the high population was manufactured.

Tactics Driving Record Population

Novelty – new things almost always enjoy and immediate surge in popularity. However, this is short lived as the ‘new-shiny’ feeling fades.
Scarcity – with availability of only one week, players flocked to Cyro to see what was happening. Should a Vengeance mode become available all the time it will lose the scarcity driving factor as well.
Belonging – Being a part of something, ex. ‘let’s test this together’ tends to drive up participation as people become invested in an outcome. When tests are over the motivation to ‘be a part of something’ will subside.

Additional Forced Population Tactics

Restricted Choice - Vengeance was the only Cyro campaign available. The only way to potentially maintain the population level is to only offer one campaign.
Golden Pursuits – The GPs that coincided with Vengeance were Cyro driven, forcing even more people into the campaign. Players strive to complete GPs for a multitude of reasons that have nothing to do with loving PVP. In fact, the desire to complete the GP can compel even a PVP hater to go into Cyro.

Fading Excitement

After the first four days, as GPs were completed and the novelty wore off, you could see the population decline. Had there been other Cyro options you would have seen even fewer players in the Vengeance Campaign.

For those of you who think Vengeance should be a live playable mode, as we enter into Vengeance Round 2, be mindful of the tactics that are manufacturing excitement and high population. Try to imagine what it will be like without all the hype. This will give you a more realistic view of what you could be left with.

And yes, I do understand that Vengeance is supposed to be a test mode only. However, seeing the Lead PVP Developer and many others (especially players who don’t regularly PVP) say “this” is what we want to see* concerns me enough to write this. I’m deeply concerned that the manufactured population popularity is clouding people’s judgment.

*Paraphrased from stream - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2429316140?filter=archives&sort=time

You could just as easily be describing Subclassing or Scribing or Hybridisation. Too much of the game is rotten underneath and in need of fresh ideas and talent.

Nemesis7884

I loved vengeance and hope it becomes a staple...great for pvp noobs amd new players too

minnowfaun

Marto wrote: »

OP, you have entirely misunderstood the point of the Vengeance PVP test.

The point of the test wasn't to get loads of players just for the fun of it. The point was to find when, where, and why server performance becomes degraded as a function of player counts.

I completely understand the point of the Vengeance tests. I understand that the next test is meant to have strict a/b test components.

However, listening to the Dev in the stream wax poetic, ("this" is what we want! All these people! Big battles! Waging war), instead of scientific (great data!) it seems people are falling into the trap of thinking that this test mode is a game play mode. I hear them saying over and over that it's a test, and then acting like it's more than that.

Heren

So, your argument is only that players judgment about Vengeance is biased because for now it's a scarcely available novelty ?

Sure enough I can agree with that - but it tells nothing about Vengeance itself.

You could also say that MM events manufacture high population in PvP, and it's also true. And it don't say nothing about PvP in itself.

It really seems to be more like a veiled attack toward Vengeance, than a honest warning. Moreso because in the end, what players want don't really seem to matter that much - it's what developpers want that do. And they proved time and again a real unwillingness to back down when announced changes are met with a lot of negativity.

Now I'm not saying players are rights ( so many players, so many opinions ), but even if it's a bonus for ZOS if Vengeance is positively welcomed ( if it make as a self cyrodiil mode ), if they planned to do so they will do so.

So once again, what's the purpose of OP ? To warn about manipulation ? Damn, you mean - all the trailers, all the livestreams, all the PR stuff - it's just so we have a positive judgment about coming content ? I'm highly surprised !

Yes, Vengeance is certainly no different, although engineered in a different way. But if you have a beef with Vengeance, I suggest you say it out loud rather than letting people fighting each other in the thread and you blowing on the embers from behind. It's just honesty.

Now, maybe you're entirely sincere, you just don't like the way advertising about Vengeance is engineered, and if so I offer you my excuses. And suggest that adding a 'This thread is not about Vengeance in itself but solely about the way Vengeance is advertised' would do good - even if it's maybe too late ( and maybe useless, but at least the tast of veiled attack would be lessen ).

Marto

minnowfaun wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

OP, you have entirely misunderstood the point of the Vengeance PVP test.

The point of the test wasn't to get loads of players just for the fun of it. The point was to find when, where, and why server performance becomes degraded as a function of player counts.

I completely understand the point of the Vengeance tests. I understand that the next test is meant to have strict a/b test components.

However, listening to the Dev in the stream wax poetic, ("this" is what we want! All these people! Big battles! Waging war), instead of scientific (great data!) it seems people are falling into the trap of thinking that this test mode is a game play mode. I hear them saying over and over that it's a test, and then acting like it's more than that.

In the stream they go into more detail, and even point out the different spikes, what caused them, and what the devs learned from them. Like I said, what's important is there when, where, and why.

Specifically, Wheeler points out the small spikes in the live server and how the simplified combat calculations reduce them. He also showed the breaking point where the player count was so large it caused the server to fail, but importantly, he said that data could help them identify the cause of it. If it could be a specific skill causing server lag, or a crowd, or some other specific event.

You're just listening to a single sentence from the devs and making it your whole talking point. You're willfully misreading everything they say, and you're not participating in good faith.

Joy_Division

Can someone link this stream where they talked about Vengeance please?

colossalvoids

Joy_Division wrote: »

Can someone link this stream where they talked about Vengeance please?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Here is the vod of the Pre-Vengeance 2 LiveStream!

Rungar

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd.

that doesnt even factor in the gameplay aspect where players will just often die because they got hit with 5 things at once by the time the server responds to their first request, and its not a cheat, its just really really *** gameplay. Average players feel like its a cheat though and thus the pvp game between that and hardcore ball groups feels like a negative experience. Experiences and perceptions matter.

sarahthes

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating the gdc and halfing normal players fun.

Because the way it is coded, blocking and dodging would also go on the gcd if they did that.

Joy_Division

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd

No it wouldn't. If I am running around with this:



Putting light attacks on a global isn't going to do diddly squat to the number of calculations the server has to process.

TheRedRavenTR

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd.

that doesnt even factor in the gameplay aspect where players will just often die because they got hit with 5 things at once by the time the server responds to their first request, and its not a cheat, its just really really *** gameplay. Average players feel like its a cheat though and thus the pvp game between that and hardcore ball groups feels like a negative experience. Experiences and perceptions matter.

[snip] is this take

[edited for profanity bypass]

Rungar

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd

No it wouldn't. If I am running around with this:



Putting light attacks on a global isn't going to do diddly squat to the number of calculations the server has to process.

i have a solution for that as well.

Condition Stacking

So when you get a dot or hot on you you get a "condition stack" of whatever that skill/damage type is. The idea here is that you can only have one dot effect on you at the same time from each damage type of skill.

this will dramatically lower game calculations and end some obscene practices like ball groups.

instead youll get a condition stack based on a damage type. So all poison skills are the same. Once your poisoned your poisoned. Once your on fire your on fire though a higher level ability might override a lower ability like a proc or enchant. Whatever you were hit with first will just refresh otherwise. You wont have ten effects ticking away on you anymore.

the condition stack is based on damage type so each damage type is represented and what happens is when your hit with that effect again ( in dot or hot format) the original only refreshes the original timer but everything after increases your condition stack for that damage type.

so your condition stack can progress to 3 levels as follows for a poison attack:

stack 1: minor defile for the dots duration, poison status x1
stack 2: major defile for the dots duration, poison status x2
stack 3: major and minor defile at the same time for the dots duration. poison status x3 . Non purge-able.

and the case for a hot like regenerating

stack 1: minor fortitude for the duration
stack 2: major fortitude for the duration
stack 3: both at the same time. When the effect ends you are purged for free as well.

theres no stack until you get hit with the same damage type twice.

The idea here is to dramatically reduce the number of active hots/dots of each type to one but not completely discount the other players contributions through advancing the stacks with crippling or beneficial effects. To make it interesting when you get to max stacks of a dot you can no longer purge it. Max stacks of a hot gives you a free purge when the effect ends. Each damage type would have its own unique condition stack but they all have three levels to them.

these condition stacks would be independent of the existing "status effects" and thus no changes would be required to them. In order to make the stacks efficient they would always have standard effects, no crit, no proc and cause no enchants or other status effects.

in addition to improving performance there is a group play component here where some players could advance the stacks to achieve an effect that could not be done otherwise.

In the past you would have three skills ticking away under the new system there would only be one but powerful conditions would be added that can be exploited instead.

in addition this system could also be used to improve crowd control in this game. Similar to the above you could only have one snare and one hard cc on you at a time but when more than one is on you you again advance stacks that have different effects on you. So when your hit by three different snares you only have one snare on you ( and all snares should be 30% across the board) but each stack after that will slow you down in the form of a speed and other debuffs. Get too many on you and you wont be able to roll dodge out of it.

hard cc could also use this system though i would separate this into roots and stuns with unique immunities for each. Stuns having a longer immunity ( 10 seconds) and roots a shorter (5 seconds) but also using the condition stack for both processes.

for instance stun could have a woozy style debuff so you get stunned ones its just the stun but if you get stunned again while woozy there could be some other effect that climbs with stuns piled on you. Same thing with roots. The difference with the hard ccs is that you would get not only a debuff but a buff as well possibly making your next root or stun within a timeframe much less effective.

This system could also be expanded to pve to expand viability of alternate builds since alternate sources of damage might be better than everyone doing the same thing. Players would then have two strategies available. 1) advance the same condition to get the debuff and 2) use alternate damage types so damage actually hits rather than refresh the counter.

solves pvp problem and solves this games pve meta problem. Only so many people can be doing the same thing before it becomes counterproductive. At least in terms of hots and dots.

EvilGoatKing

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

It very well might change if ZOS just made a couple changes we've been asking for for years now. Specifically limited heal and shield stacking and removing or radically changing RoA.

So the real question is why hasn't ZOS made any effort to even discuss these numerous feedback requests?

Their answer is Vengeance. It solves the performance in addition to all these meta problems. There's so much to fix that it's more efficient to start over, why keep trying to fix a sinking ship with duct tape, it's still sinking.

Esp. when the new IP brain drain means you dont know how to fix it.

LadyGP

Rungar wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd

No it wouldn't. If I am running around with this:



Putting light attacks on a global isn't going to do diddly squat to the number of calculations the server has to process.

i have a solution for that as well.

Condition Stacking

So when you get a dot or hot on you you get a "condition stack" of whatever that skill/damage type is. The idea here is that you can only have one dot effect on you at the same time from each damage type of skill.

this will dramatically lower game calculations and end some obscene practices like ball groups.

instead youll get a condition stack based on a damage type. So all poison skills are the same. Once your poisoned your poisoned. Once your on fire your on fire though a higher level ability might override a lower ability like a proc or enchant. Whatever you were hit with first will just refresh otherwise. You wont have ten effects ticking away on you anymore.

the condition stack is based on damage type so each damage type is represented and what happens is when your hit with that effect again ( in dot or hot format) the original only refreshes the original timer but everything after increases your condition stack for that damage type.

so your condition stack can progress to 3 levels as follows for a poison attack:

stack 1: minor defile for the dots duration, poison status x1
stack 2: major defile for the dots duration, poison status x2
stack 3: major and minor defile at the same time for the dots duration. poison status x3 . Non purge-able.

and the case for a hot like regenerating

stack 1: minor fortitude for the duration
stack 2: major fortitude for the duration
stack 3: both at the same time. When the effect ends you are purged for free as well.

theres no stack until you get hit with the same damage type twice.

The idea here is to dramatically reduce the number of active hots/dots of each type to one but not completely discount the other players contributions through advancing the stacks with crippling or beneficial effects. To make it interesting when you get to max stacks of a dot you can no longer purge it. Max stacks of a hot gives you a free purge when the effect ends. Each damage type would have its own unique condition stack but they all have three levels to them.

these condition stacks would be independent of the existing "status effects" and thus no changes would be required to them. In order to make the stacks efficient they would always have standard effects, no crit, no proc and cause no enchants or other status effects.

in addition to improving performance there is a group play component here where some players could advance the stacks to achieve an effect that could not be done otherwise.

In the past you would have three skills ticking away under the new system there would only be one but powerful conditions would be added that can be exploited instead.

in addition this system could also be used to improve crowd control in this game. Similar to the above you could only have one snare and one hard cc on you at a time but when more than one is on you you again advance stacks that have different effects on you. So when your hit by three different snares you only have one snare on you ( and all snares should be 30% across the board) but each stack after that will slow you down in the form of a speed and other debuffs. Get too many on you and you wont be able to roll dodge out of it.

hard cc could also use this system though i would separate this into roots and stuns with unique immunities for each. Stuns having a longer immunity ( 10 seconds) and roots a shorter (5 seconds) but also using the condition stack for both processes.

for instance stun could have a woozy style debuff so you get stunned ones its just the stun but if you get stunned again while woozy there could be some other effect that climbs with stuns piled on you. Same thing with roots. The difference with the hard ccs is that you would get not only a debuff but a buff as well possibly making your next root or stun within a timeframe much less effective.

This system could also be expanded to pve to expand viability of alternate builds since alternate sources of damage might be better than everyone doing the same thing. Players would then have two strategies available. 1) advance the same condition to get the debuff and 2) use alternate damage types so damage actually hits rather than refresh the counter.

solves pvp problem and solves this games pve meta problem. Only so many people can be doing the same thing before it becomes counterproductive. At least in terms of hots and dots.

Zos has said they don't want to remove people from playing certain play styles (ball groups) so alot of what you said won't happen. You have to keep in mind pretty much any change they make will also hit the end game pve trial groups - zero chance most of what you said about the skills/status effects would pass with that group.

Now, shielding and hot stacking needs to be reworked 100% I agree with you there and some sets need Cc cool downs and what not.

Rungar

LadyGP wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd

No it wouldn't. If I am running around with this:



Putting light attacks on a global isn't going to do diddly squat to the number of calculations the server has to process.

i have a solution for that as well.

Condition Stacking

So when you get a dot or hot on you you get a "condition stack" of whatever that skill/damage type is. The idea here is that you can only have one dot effect on you at the same time from each damage type of skill.

this will dramatically lower game calculations and end some obscene practices like ball groups.

instead youll get a condition stack based on a damage type. So all poison skills are the same. Once your poisoned your poisoned. Once your on fire your on fire though a higher level ability might override a lower ability like a proc or enchant. Whatever you were hit with first will just refresh otherwise. You wont have ten effects ticking away on you anymore.

the condition stack is based on damage type so each damage type is represented and what happens is when your hit with that effect again ( in dot or hot format) the original only refreshes the original timer but everything after increases your condition stack for that damage type.

so your condition stack can progress to 3 levels as follows for a poison attack:

stack 1: minor defile for the dots duration, poison status x1
stack 2: major defile for the dots duration, poison status x2
stack 3: major and minor defile at the same time for the dots duration. poison status x3 . Non purge-able.

and the case for a hot like regenerating

stack 1: minor fortitude for the duration
stack 2: major fortitude for the duration
stack 3: both at the same time. When the effect ends you are purged for free as well.

theres no stack until you get hit with the same damage type twice.

The idea here is to dramatically reduce the number of active hots/dots of each type to one but not completely discount the other players contributions through advancing the stacks with crippling or beneficial effects. To make it interesting when you get to max stacks of a dot you can no longer purge it. Max stacks of a hot gives you a free purge when the effect ends. Each damage type would have its own unique condition stack but they all have three levels to them.

these condition stacks would be independent of the existing "status effects" and thus no changes would be required to them. In order to make the stacks efficient they would always have standard effects, no crit, no proc and cause no enchants or other status effects.

in addition to improving performance there is a group play component here where some players could advance the stacks to achieve an effect that could not be done otherwise.

In the past you would have three skills ticking away under the new system there would only be one but powerful conditions would be added that can be exploited instead.

in addition this system could also be used to improve crowd control in this game. Similar to the above you could only have one snare and one hard cc on you at a time but when more than one is on you you again advance stacks that have different effects on you. So when your hit by three different snares you only have one snare on you ( and all snares should be 30% across the board) but each stack after that will slow you down in the form of a speed and other debuffs. Get too many on you and you wont be able to roll dodge out of it.

hard cc could also use this system though i would separate this into roots and stuns with unique immunities for each. Stuns having a longer immunity ( 10 seconds) and roots a shorter (5 seconds) but also using the condition stack for both processes.

for instance stun could have a woozy style debuff so you get stunned ones its just the stun but if you get stunned again while woozy there could be some other effect that climbs with stuns piled on you. Same thing with roots. The difference with the hard ccs is that you would get not only a debuff but a buff as well possibly making your next root or stun within a timeframe much less effective.

This system could also be expanded to pve to expand viability of alternate builds since alternate sources of damage might be better than everyone doing the same thing. Players would then have two strategies available. 1) advance the same condition to get the debuff and 2) use alternate damage types so damage actually hits rather than refresh the counter.

solves pvp problem and solves this games pve meta problem. Only so many people can be doing the same thing before it becomes counterproductive. At least in terms of hots and dots.

Zos has said they don't want to remove people from playing certain play styles (ball groups) so alot of what you said won't happen. You have to keep in mind pretty much any change they make will also hit the end game pve trial groups - zero chance most of what you said about the skills/status effects would pass with that group.

Now, shielding and hot stacking needs to be reworked 100% I agree with you there and some sets need Cc cool downs and what not.

really though, thats always been the main issue with this game.....zos's lack of fortitude when it comes to certain groups has always held them back. Even ball groups need to have enemies to kill. Not much foresight there. Same with trials. Resistant to change right down to the last man. lol.

xylena_lazarow

LadyGP wrote: »

Zos has said they don't want to remove people from playing certain play styles (ball groups)

You can still ball group on Vengeance, it just won't be the nigh god mode that you're accustomed to.

moderatelyfatman

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Zos has said they don't want to remove people from playing certain play styles (ball groups)

You can still ball group on Vengeance, it just won't be the nigh god mode that you're accustomed to.

I can live with that.
(The genuinely good groups will keep going but the trash spammers won't.)

Bogaisha

I just want to get carried by ZoS making ball groups the easiest they've ever been and delude myself into thinking I'm good. Vengeance makes me madge

Muizer

So my take is this:

When Wheeler says "this is what we want to see" he means "massive battles".

So that is the boundary condition PvP needs to meet.

Now you can approach whatever technical limit the hardware poses from two ends.

1) Throw all stuff you might possibly want included into the mix and then try to whittle things down

OR

2) Start with something simple and increase complexity until you hit the limit.

I mean, there really is no contest here. Option 2 is superior in every way.

The problem is ZOS have been following option 1 and now it feels like option 2 is taking stuff away from players. That's a PR problem they have created for themselves. Not a technical one.

Four_Fingers

Alliance stacking zergs everywhere, what a way to kill a game.
Small scale will be obsolete.

ForumBully

I was excited about subclassing, but that excitement was quickly dispelled by the reality that I would have to return to Cyrodiil as it is. I have no interest in that laggy broken land of procs and nonsense.
With Vengeance coming console, I will be logging back in after a long, long time.

Joy_Division

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alliance stacking zergs everywhere, what a way to kill a game.
Small scale will be obsolete.

Legit question.

How would you realistically (i.e., dont ask ZOS to remake Cyrodiil from scratch) raise the population cap and without creating the game killing situation you fear?

What is going to convince average player X to ignore the "stacking zerg" fight going on at Chalman and instead do something else?

ForumBully

I do have a question re: Vengeance, are werewolves a thing? I imagine their skills are all different if so...

xylena_lazarow

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alliance stacking zergs everywhere, what a way to kill a game. Small scale will be obsolete.

Small scale is already obsolete on Live. Sure you can occasionally still 3vX or whatever but 18 hours a day you are getting zero action because the server is dead, and the other 6 hours you're left with whatever scraps of action are left over after the ball groups suck it all into one laggy emp keep mess. No impact on large scale either way anymore.

DeadlySerious

LadyGP wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

it still amazes me that they wont put light attacks on the gdc. It literally up to halves the server requests. makes no sense. They will gut every ability in the game but wont touch that when thats the first thing that should of went. How many decades is it going to take for them to figure out the servers are clogged due to light attacks happening inbetween each skill decimating purpose of the gdc and halfing normal players fun. One action per second is plenty. Lets not forget what happens when you shoot off a light attack.. it can proc, it can crit, it generates ultimate, it can pop the enchant. Thats alot of calculation overhead for a nominal ability thats not on the gcd

No it wouldn't. If I am running around with this:



Putting light attacks on a global isn't going to do diddly squat to the number of calculations the server has to process.

i have a solution for that as well.

Condition Stacking

So when you get a dot or hot on you you get a "condition stack" of whatever that skill/damage type is. The idea here is that you can only have one dot effect on you at the same time from each damage type of skill.

this will dramatically lower game calculations and end some obscene practices like ball groups.

instead youll get a condition stack based on a damage type. So all poison skills are the same. Once your poisoned your poisoned. Once your on fire your on fire though a higher level ability might override a lower ability like a proc or enchant. Whatever you were hit with first will just refresh otherwise. You wont have ten effects ticking away on you anymore.

the condition stack is based on damage type so each damage type is represented and what happens is when your hit with that effect again ( in dot or hot format) the original only refreshes the original timer but everything after increases your condition stack for that damage type.

so your condition stack can progress to 3 levels as follows for a poison attack:

stack 1: minor defile for the dots duration, poison status x1
stack 2: major defile for the dots duration, poison status x2
stack 3: major and minor defile at the same time for the dots duration. poison status x3 . Non purge-able.

and the case for a hot like regenerating

stack 1: minor fortitude for the duration
stack 2: major fortitude for the duration
stack 3: both at the same time. When the effect ends you are purged for free as well.

theres no stack until you get hit with the same damage type twice.

The idea here is to dramatically reduce the number of active hots/dots of each type to one but not completely discount the other players contributions through advancing the stacks with crippling or beneficial effects. To make it interesting when you get to max stacks of a dot you can no longer purge it. Max stacks of a hot gives you a free purge when the effect ends. Each damage type would have its own unique condition stack but they all have three levels to them.

these condition stacks would be independent of the existing "status effects" and thus no changes would be required to them. In order to make the stacks efficient they would always have standard effects, no crit, no proc and cause no enchants or other status effects.

in addition to improving performance there is a group play component here where some players could advance the stacks to achieve an effect that could not be done otherwise.

In the past you would have three skills ticking away under the new system there would only be one but powerful conditions would be added that can be exploited instead.

in addition this system could also be used to improve crowd control in this game. Similar to the above you could only have one snare and one hard cc on you at a time but when more than one is on you you again advance stacks that have different effects on you. So when your hit by three different snares you only have one snare on you ( and all snares should be 30% across the board) but each stack after that will slow you down in the form of a speed and other debuffs. Get too many on you and you wont be able to roll dodge out of it.

hard cc could also use this system though i would separate this into roots and stuns with unique immunities for each. Stuns having a longer immunity ( 10 seconds) and roots a shorter (5 seconds) but also using the condition stack for both processes.

for instance stun could have a woozy style debuff so you get stunned ones its just the stun but if you get stunned again while woozy there could be some other effect that climbs with stuns piled on you. Same thing with roots. The difference with the hard ccs is that you would get not only a debuff but a buff as well possibly making your next root or stun within a timeframe much less effective.

This system could also be expanded to pve to expand viability of alternate builds since alternate sources of damage might be better than everyone doing the same thing. Players would then have two strategies available. 1) advance the same condition to get the debuff and 2) use alternate damage types so damage actually hits rather than refresh the counter.

solves pvp problem and solves this games pve meta problem. Only so many people can be doing the same thing before it becomes counterproductive. At least in terms of hots and dots.

Zos has said they don't want to remove people from playing certain play styles (ball groups) so alot of what you said won't happen. You have to keep in mind pretty much any change they make will also hit the end game pve trial groups - zero chance most of what you said about the skills/status effects would pass with that group.

Now, shielding and hot stacking needs to be reworked 100% I agree with you there and some sets need Cc cool downs and what not.

The problem is what ZOS is doing isn't matching what they're saying.

They're saying vengeance is just a test mode. But they're acting like vengeance will be the only Cyro PvP option here sometime in the relative near future.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Alliance stacking zergs everywhere, what a way to kill a game. Small scale will be obsolete.

Small scale is already obsolete on Live. Sure you can occasionally still 3vX or whatever but 18 hours a day you are getting zero action because the server is dead, and the other 6 hours you're left with whatever scraps of action are left over after the ball groups suck it all into one laggy emp keep mess. No impact on large scale either way anymore.

You seem to be pushing for vengeance mode because your sick of current live mode. Understandable to a point. Live mode needs to have heal and shield stacking limits and sets like RoA need to be removed or at least be reworked to have the same limitations other sets have put on them.

But vengeance mode will not be played by most of the current live PvP players. You and Joy are the only two regularly posting on the forum in support of Vengeance mode. Vengeance mode will be the end of ESO PvP for most of us if it's the only option.

So pushing for anything other than fixing the current live mode PvP is "cutting off your nose to spite your face" kind of exercise.

Ulvich

I have no plans on joining in on Vengeance.
During the last release I logged into Cyrodiil for about 5 minutes and knew it was not for me. Therefore, I again won't be logging in. I didn't like it on the first run, and that won't change for the second run.

LadyGP

The overal setiment OP has on this thread is starting to play out. The title of the thread is perfect; and I'm willing to bet the data ZoS is getting will reflect that.

(Although they put "fun" as an option for like 4 of the 6 choices so I'm sure they will say something like "85% of people said veng was fun we need to push forward exactly how it is" *sigh*)

Everyone loves the performance gains.
Everyone (except for those few who are dug in the trenches - we/you know who you are) hate the template style no skill forever long TTK gameplay loop.

reazea

LadyGP wrote: »

The overal setiment OP has on this thread is starting to play out. The title of the thread is perfect; and I'm willing to bet the data ZoS is getting will reflect that.

(Although they put "fun" as an option for like 4 of the 6 choices so I'm sure they will say something like "85% of people said veng was fun we need to push forward exactly how it is" *sigh*)

Everyone loves the performance gains.
Everyone (except for those few who are dug in the trenches - we/you know who you are) hate the template style no skill forever long TTK gameplay loop.

I also greatly fear a bait and switch with the vengeance mode, at some point, becoming the only option. I think vengeance as the only option would be a huge mistake.