Make New Dungeon Trifectas More Challenging

Finisherofwar · July 1

Dungeon trifectas have always suffered from being too easy. This in great part is due to the fact that the Speedrun timers are too generous and thus they end up as not being an issue at all.

But the biggest reason why dungeon Trifectas are too easy is because you can use acquired side boss buffs during trifecta runs. Please make the requirements for dungeon trifectas be the same as for Swashbuckler Supreme where use of side buffs is not allowed for the trifecta achievement.

dinokstrunz · July 1

Then don't get the buff? haha

LunaFlora · July 1

you are not obligated to get the side boss buffs

Soarora · July 1

I don't really care about the side buffs but YES to tight speedrun timers! For too long have trifectas been HM no death. Bring back the speed component like with CA and LS!

Finisherofwar · July 1

People will always make things as easy for themselves as possible when achievement hunting and will do all they can within the constraints of any achievement. This isn't about me not liking using side buffs in trifecta runs but rather about my opinion of the trifecta achievements being too easy to obtain for these reasons and ZOS is clearly aware of this hence why in Dreadsail Reef they made it a requirement of the trifecta to not obtain the side buffs. @dinokstrunz @LunaFlora

tomofhyrule · July 2

I feel like this is one of those posts from someone in the 0.1% of the 0.1% who doesn't realize the meaning of the word "hard."

Here's a fun piece of info I got last month:

That's the number of people in a Discord server specifically focused on getting 4-man achievements who have trifectas. Again, this is a subset of only people who are actively in a Discord going for them, which means there are definitely people who go for those achieves who are not from that server (like me, for example), not to mention the much greater number of people who do dungeons and can't even do the Challenger tasks, so it's not comprehensive. Still, we can expect that this is weighted very heavily towards people who are in the 1%.

I do not think these numbers show that "trifectas are too easy" in any way.

Soarora · July 2

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is one of those posts from someone in the 0.1% of the 0.1% who doesn't realize the meaning of the word "hard."

Here's a fun piece of info I got last month:

That's the number of people in a Discord server specifically focused on getting 4-man achievements who have trifectas. Again, this is a subset of only people who are actively in a Discord going for them, which means there are definitely people who go for those achieves who are not from that server (like me, for example), not to mention the much greater number of people who do dungeons and can't even do the Challenger tasks, so it's not comprehensive. Still, we can expect that this is weighted very heavily towards people who are in the 1%.

I do not think these numbers show that "trifectas are too easy" in any way.

Where did you get this from...? I know the source of the information but I'm curious where it is that you saw it.

Anyways, this information, while cool to look at, doesn't actually say much about completion rates. We do not kick people from our discord for inactivity, so the trifecta clear rate is heavily skewed towards older content. People begin their progression by getting the easy tris and then they quit the game or never update their clears. People also may have all the trifectas at the time and then quit the game and end up behind. You really can't make these conclusions off this data. Bedlam Veil, for instance, is not harder than Coral Aerie. It's just newer so those players who quit or haven't updated their clears make it seem harder.

Anyways, as a member and now GM of Hard Dungeoneers a data point I can give you is that we see quite a bit of week one trifectas posted. 34 individuals who have posted their clear in the first week of Scions of Ithelia had both Bedlam Veil and Oathsworn Pit trifectas. Despite the inaccessibility of the new content within the first week, we saw 32 individuals post their clears for Fallen Banners, obtaining both Exiled Redoubt and Lep Seclusa trifectas in the first week. These individuals also may have (and some did) run with additional people who did not post their trifectas, so the numbers are actually a bit more.

Trifectas are for us. Trifectas do not need to be obtainable to people who can't (or rather won't) do challengers. They will not try to get the trifectas to begin with. I started from the bottom. I was a heavy-armor wearing sorc that was hybrid before hybrid scaling, not even all my attributes in, pugging dungeons. It's not that people cannot do challengers, it's that they have to keep growing, learning, and trying in the right environment. Shameless plug that Hard Dungeoneers was that environment for me. I joined with no challengers, I now have all tris and I am BORED. Hard modes aren't hard enough, trifectas aren't hard enough. I'm not even top 1%, I wear outdated armor. I don't subclass. I have a core group and we do mechanics instead of full burning the dungeons. And they are still too easy.

Soarora · July 2

Some additional information: the first two days of Scions of Ithelia saw about 18 people post one or both trifectas. Fallen banners saw about 14 people post one or both trifectas in the first two days. Again, this does not include full groups, I know several of these people ran with others who did not post their clears.

Edit: Some more tidbits...
Oathsworn Pit and Bedlam Veil were both generally perceived as very easy. Bedlam Veil, for example, has mechanics that are never seen or flat out ignored even on hard mode by guild groups (for example, the shield from the argonian behemoth yelling on 2nd boss-- a mechanic I've only ever seen ONE time, the poison flowers during that fight which I've seen a maximum of THREE times, and the last boss execute the glass shard "maze" is pretty ignorable and you can just stand in place).

Exiled Redoubt is generally perceived as easy. Lep Seclusa was better and the side achievement Slowed Not Stopped still has people working on getting it due to its difficulty.

Power creep has hit all dungeons, making it easier and easier to get those older trifectas (such as it becoming easier to skip execute on coral aerie last boss-- a notoriously difficult fight...). People who struggle can go for those trifectas. There are over 32 DLC dungeons that people can play. Every new dungeon that's catered towards people who cannot achieve a difficult hard mode or trifecta means another dungeon added to the saturated pile of increasingly easy encounters, leaving increasingly little for us who have a passion for endgame dungeons. Of the, again, over 32 DLC dungeons, I would say 5 or less are considered to be on the difficult end (Coral Aerie, Scriviner's Hall, Lep Seclusa, Earthen Root Enclave) and arguably 0 of those are considered to actually be hard.

Finisherofwar · July 2

All I am asking for is more parity with Trial trifectas difficulty. Those are challenging in a good way especially for the newer trial the trifecta titles actually holding some weight unlike any of the dungeon titles.

It makes sense for trial trifectas to always be more difficult but as it is now the disparity in difficulty is night and day and should be brought closer together. @tomofhyrule

Soarora · July 2

Finisherofwar wrote: »

All I am asking for is more parity with Trial trifectas difficulty. Those are challenging in a good way especially for the newer trial the trifecta titles actually holding some weight unlike any of the dungeon titles.

It makes sense for trial trifectas to always be more difficult but as it is now the disparity in difficulty is night and day and should be brought closer together. @tomofhyrule

Agreed. For an example, I love DSR HM. Twins has amazing mechanical difficulty between the orb swaps, the port/bashes, the stacking mechanic, the tank swaps, and more. For most dungeons, it’s not about doing mechanics well, it’s just about doing mechanics at all. Graven Deep is one of my favorite dungeons because that last boss has so much going on at once… yet it’s also considered to be on the easier end. Moongrave Fane’s heal absorption is also a lovely mechanic but you don’t even need a healer nowadays, just a DPS or even a tank with a burst heal… and MGF is also not considered hard. Coral Aerie’s mind link and execute AoEs and Scriviner’s Hall’s fire trap do assist in their difficulty as its immediate life-or-death for possibly multiple people if someone doesn’t do their mechanic correctly.

So, mechanically, I think we need more fights [on Hard Mode] with more mechanics than just a handful alongside life-or-death coordination. Not just harder healchecks and mechanics where the only hurdle is figuring out the strategy, not enacting the strategy.

Another problem is that dungeons often have one fight thats “hard” and two that are “easy”. I cannot name one dungeon that has consistently difficult encounters.

Leia98 · July 6

Lep seclusa doesnt even have buffs and is overall a difficult dungeon, compared to the others, while buffs in exiled redoubt are very situational. I think they are going in the right direction.

Gabriel_H · July 7

Finisherofwar wrote: »

All I am asking for is more parity with Trial trifectas difficulty. Those are challenging in a good way especially for the newer trial the trifecta titles actually holding some weight unlike any of the dungeon titles.

It makes sense for trial trifectas to always be more difficult but as it is now the disparity in difficulty is night and day and should be brought closer together. @tomofhyrule

The difference in difficulty is mainly due to having 12 work in unison, rather than just 4. The actual mechanics themselves are at parity, but because you need 12 people on the same page the perceived difficulty is harder.

code65536 · July 8

Finisherofwar wrote: »

All I am asking for is more parity with Trial trifectas difficulty.

Absolutely not.

Finisherofwar · July 8

I agree that Lep Seclusa was a step in the right direction but Exiled Redoubt was too easy so I'm here asking for more dungeons like Lep Seclusa with no OP side buffs and that pose a challenge. @Leia98

kevkj · July 8

I think a lot of the perceived difficulty gap between dungeons and trials is simply 4 vs 12 players and 1(+1 optional healer) vs 4 supports. Besides all the extra coordination required (scheduling and in-game), I think a lot of trial groups don't actually have the 12 people at parity of skill/experience. When I see the best groups do trial trifectas, to me it looks a lot like dungeon trifectas where they just skip as many mechanics as possible (or the mechanics are trivialized through good play).

I wouldn't mind if the trifecta timers are adjusted that taking ALL the buffs are near impossible for most players. As someone mentioned, I believe Coral Aerie's timer was like this on release (for the average trifecta group).

Reginald_leBlem · July 8

Finisherofwar wrote: »

Dungeon trifectas have always suffered from being too easy. This in great part is due to the fact that the Speedrun timers are too generous and thus they end up as not being an issue at all.

But the biggest reason why dungeon Trifectas are too easy is because you can use acquired side boss buffs during trifecta runs. Please make the requirements for dungeon trifectas be the same as for Swashbuckler Supreme where use of side buffs is not allowed for the trifecta achievement.

What if instead, we did not do this

Islyn · July 8

Well I want the achs on my healer - because that was my main 1st - since 2014.

People decided they don't need healers for some content - regardless as to whether healer characters still need that content.

So I have fewer trifectas than I would, if I just went on my DPS chars, and OF COURSE, if I didn't get burnt out and take year long breaks!

However I don't WANT to - if I have to do all the gear types and skill types etc - then people can use their HUGE DPS that they have to help me get mine on my healer character 1st

xD

So no rush - it will happen when it does.

Soarora · July 8

Islyn wrote: »

Well I want the achs on my healer - because that was my main 1st - since 2014.

People decided they don't need healers for some content - regardless as to whether healer characters still need that content.

So I have fewer trifectas than I would, if I just went on my DPS chars. However I don't WANT to - if I have to do all the gear types and skill types etc - then people can use their HUGE DPS that they have to help me get mine on my healer character 1st

So no rush - it will happen when it does.

Something I judge with new dungeons is how interesting it'd be to heal and how necessary a healer is. I know the pain of being a healer main in a culture of 3 DPS and I wish more dungeons had cool healer mechanics like Moongrave Fane HM does. Oathsworn Pit, as much as I complain about it, is a great step in the right direction in terms of healer mechanics (kiting dog, kiting axe throws) while Scrivener's Hall is a great step in terms of healer necessity (heavy healchecks).