Traders

Bobby_Digital81 · June 19

Wow! Removing the sort by time function seems odd, for the reasons that people have mentioned in this thread. Hopefully it gets added back quickly with the next incremental.

I also wish ZOS was able to QA test their updates before final release more intensively. Can understand having a few minor bugs. But seeing how many people can't progress the Subclassing quest because it's bugged, since it is one of the main new features of Update 46 seems like it got pushed too early. I'd rather wait for a finished product that we paid for instead of beta testing and get fixes over the next several weeks. Just feels off having to be put through that almost each update. Cause it does happen often. ESO is a great game without all the issues we get after an update.

antihero_kazuma · June 19

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

code65536 · June 19

Could probably make the new collection icon appear as an overlay over the item icon instead of having it be its own column, similar to how the stack size number is overlaid over the item icon and not its own column.

Gambit001 · June 19

Yeah this definitely feels like something that should be a high priority hotfix done right away, and not something that waits for any further official update. I can tell you now as a member of 4 trading guilds, 2 of which are always in the big 3 cities, I’ve literally sold 1 item since the update, it’s definitely hurting sales.

antihero_kazuma · June 19

code65536 wrote: »

Could probably make the new collection icon appear as an overlay over the item icon instead of having it be its own column, similar to how the stack size number is overlaid over the item icon and not its own column.

Or what might be done is maybe use a light blue text around each letter of the furnishings or praxis that remains, or maybe a text box around the item might work... As long as it isn't the same color as the item itself

Gambit001 · June 19

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Could probably make the new collection icon appear as an overlay over the item icon instead of having it be its own column, similar to how the stack size number is overlaid over the item icon and not its own column.

Or what might be done is maybe use a light blue text around each letter of the furnishings or praxis that remains, or maybe a text box around the item might work... As long as it isn't the same color as the item itself

I also posted prior to just add options to toggle the sort to allow for a drop down to choose both time or unit cost (ascending and descending); could even just add a sort option next to the word “item” that states how you’re sorting.

code65536 · June 19

Gambit001 wrote: »

I can tell you now as a member of 4 trading guilds, 2 of which are always in the big 3 cities, I’ve literally sold 1 item since the update, it’s definitely hurting sales.

Or it could be that people are busy doing the new content or grinding their subclassing and not interested in shopping?

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here: why do people care about the listing age? I play on PC (but I don't use any guild store addons) and I've literally never, ever sorted by listing age. I've only ever sorted by price.

My guess is that someone at ZOS thought something along the lines of, "We need to make space for the new collection icon. Wait, does anyone ever sort by age? Maybe we could get rid of that one to make room." And as someone who has never sorted by age, I can see the logic behind that.

Is there something console-specific that I'm missing here?

DragonRacer · June 19

code65536 wrote: »

Gambit001 wrote: »

I can tell you now as a member of 4 trading guilds, 2 of which are always in the big 3 cities, I’ve literally sold 1 item since the update, it’s definitely hurting sales.

Or it could be that people are busy doing the new content or grinding their subclassing and not interested in shopping?

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here: why do people care about the listing age? I play on PC (but I don't use any guild store addons) and I've literally never, ever sorted by listing age. I've only ever sorted by price.

My guess is that someone at ZOS thought something along the lines of, "We need to make space for the new collection icon. Wait, does anyone ever sort by age? Maybe we could get rid of that one to make room." And as someone who has never sorted by age, I can see the logic behind that.

Is there something console-specific that I'm missing here?

To reiterate my earlier post (and, yes, this is HIGHLY console-specific and affecting):

"It's just... it's heartbreaking. I know that sounds over the top, but let me explain trading guild life on console: we do not have TTC or any way of conveniently finding out Thing X is available at Trade Y (and by all reports, that is NOT coming with our add-on support once it's turned on). We have to go trader to trader. You can search by stuff you need, or item quality, or amount you wanna spend, sure, but anyone who shops a lot or sells a lot or is just, in general, trader-savvy sorts by time left. Because you wanna see the freshest "14 days left" listings. That is where you find bargains if someone underpriced or find stuff maybe you have been looking for forever before someone else snags it. As trading guild GMs, we are always encouraging our members to keep listings fresh - pull older listings and relist stuff so the people sorting for that "14 days left" will see your goods at the top.

This is staple. This is IMPORTANT for console guild traders. And now it is GONE a WEEK before the biggest guild trader event of the year. An event we have been anticipating since last year, an event for which I have spent a MONTH doing extra fundraisers to try and ensure my guild can feast during it... and now we are ALL going to suffer from the removal of this option.

Is it game-breaking? No. Of course buyers can still search by other means. But this hurts a LOT and the fact that the one way to really harm console trading is the one thing to happen to us before our biggest time of year is just... there are no words."

If someone is super serious about trading guilds on PC, they use the add-ons that assist with that.

If someone is super serious about trading on console - we don't have that option. We live and die by "sort by date" and that was abruptly and without warning removed from us in its entirety. And before the biggest guild trader event of the year.

DragonRacer · June 19

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

While I don't disagree, this is also apparently NOT a glitch but an intentional change... not spoken of in advance or even listed in the patch notes, from what I can tell, just some unhappy surprise you found out about when you logged in after the update. That apparently adding a thing you wanted (sorting know/unknown) came at the price of REMOVING functionality you used every single day.

Had I known this was an either/or issue, I'd have preferred we keep what we had rather than remove existing functionality.

Gambit001 · June 19

The other question is, my understanding is PC still has this sort option as it is, and they have the symbol for unknown plans/motifs, so it was never taken away there when they added the new column, don’t see why it would be for console.

As for the sales, sure people are doing new content, but that doesn’t ever turn sales to near zero…

antihero_kazuma · June 19

Well let the people speak. For everyone who is not a big fan of these changes, I'm sure there's box that has the "impairs functionality" option when submitting feedback. How about getting all the gamers who use main city traders submit feedback. I'm sure the developers would love to sift through hundreds of complaints

code65536 · June 19

Gambit001 wrote: »

The other question is, my understanding is PC still has this sort option as it is, and they have the symbol for unknown plans/motifs, so it was never taken away there when they added the new column, don’t see why it would be for console.

Gamepad UI has very large text compared to keyboard UI because it's optimized for viewing from a couch distance. So space is at a much higher premium with gamepad UI.

DragonRacer wrote: »

You can search by stuff you need, or item quality, or amount you wanna spend, sure, but anyone who shops a lot or sells a lot or is just, in general, trader-savvy sorts by time left. Because you wanna see the freshest "14 days left" listings. That is where you find bargains if someone underpriced or find stuff maybe you have been looking for forever before someone else snags it. As trading guild GMs, we are always encouraging our members to keep listings fresh - pull older listings and relist stuff so the people sorting for that "14 days left" will see your goods at the top.

Nope, that still makes no sense to me. Even though I play on PC, I haven't used any addons for pricing or anything related to the guild store since 2017, mostly because I don't like the performance impact of such addons. Yes, there is a TTC website that I can search, which is useful for finding rare items that might be listed in only a handful of locations. But for many items, I don't bother with the hassle of tabbing out of the game to check TTC, so I'll search for the item name that I want at each of the traders in the city that I happen to be in, sort by price, and just buy the cheapest one.

I agree that listing age can be a kind of a proxy measurement; older items usually mean that something is overpriced which is why it hasn't sold, but since a good price is what I'm after, why should I sort by anything except, well, price? I get wanting to sort by age if sorting by price wasn't an option, but a proxy measure is never going to be as good as a direct measure. Esp. if people are being told to "pull old listings": you're basically telling people to game the system, which degrades the value of listing age as such a proxy.

DragonRacer · June 20

code65536 wrote: »

Gambit001 wrote: »

The other question is, my understanding is PC still has this sort option as it is, and they have the symbol for unknown plans/motifs, so it was never taken away there when they added the new column, don’t see why it would be for console.

Gamepad UI has very large text compared to keyboard UI because it's optimized for viewing from a couch distance. So space is at a much higher premium with gamepad UI.

DragonRacer wrote: »

You can search by stuff you need, or item quality, or amount you wanna spend, sure, but anyone who shops a lot or sells a lot or is just, in general, trader-savvy sorts by time left. Because you wanna see the freshest "14 days left" listings. That is where you find bargains if someone underpriced or find stuff maybe you have been looking for forever before someone else snags it. As trading guild GMs, we are always encouraging our members to keep listings fresh - pull older listings and relist stuff so the people sorting for that "14 days left" will see your goods at the top.

Nope, that still makes no sense to me. Even though I play on PC, I haven't used any addons for pricing or anything related to the guild store since 2017, mostly because I don't like the performance impact of such addons. Yes, there is a TTC website that I can search, which is useful for finding rare items that might be listed in only a handful of locations. But for many items, I don't bother with the hassle of tabbing out of the game to check TTC, so I'll search for the item name that I want at each of the traders in the city that I happen to be in, sort by price, and just buy the cheapest one.

I agree that listing age can be a kind of a proxy measurement; older items usually mean that something is overpriced which is why it hasn't sold, but since a good price is what I'm after, why should I sort by anything except, well, price? I get wanting to sort by age if sorting by price wasn't an option, but a proxy measure is never going to be as good as a direct measure. Esp. if people are being told to "pull old listings": you're basically telling people to game the system, which degrades the value of listing age as such a proxy.

Then this is clearly a sorting option you do not use or find benefit from, which is perfectly fine. But when I say that it IS a sorting option that many others DO use and find important, is there some particular reason why you feel the need to argue against it? Perhaps that is not the manner in which you mean to come off, but that is how it is coming off to me at the moment.

Many folks on console sort by listing date if they aren't looking for something specific, but want to shop around. Reasons for this range from finding something you want or can use that is listed cheaper than normal price to seeing what's currently being listed and for what price (a quick overall price check to help decide if you want to try and sell mats or motifs or furnishing plans based on current pricing or volume of items listed).

I need or could use a wide variety of things. I am not going to sit there and manually type in everything I might want and individually search each thing at each trader. I am going to sort by freshest listings, look through a page or two to see if there's anything I wish to purchase, then move on to the next trader. Or I might stumble upon something I didn't know existed and wouldn't have even known to search for and decide to buy it after I preview it. This is why we advise guildmates to pull old listings and relist (usually at a LOWER price than before since it clearly wasn't selling, which then benefits YOU sorting by price). It's a better chance at getting eyeballs on your item because that is console behavior.

Maybe PC culture is different, but I am telling you - literally as the GM of a console trading guild who is around this behavior and conversation every single day - that this is very common standard practice in the console community, and it was snatched away suddenly with no warning.

if you have zero sympathy for that, fine, but just be honest and say that. There's things and features in this game that I do not use that you may find integral to your daily ESO life, and I wouldn't sit there and say "well, I don't use it so I don't understand all the fuss".

Let's make up an entirely new example unrelated to trading: Group Finder. Let's pretend you like to group up with your best friend and you queue up in Group Finder to fill out the remaining group and go do pledges. This has been standard practice in ESO for years and an option you frequently utilize in this hypothetical scenario. Then one day, with no prior announcement or a patch note bullet point, ZOS takes away the ability to queue in Group Finder if you are already grouped with someone. And they do this days before the Undaunted event, the biggest dungeon grouping event of the year. Now you can no longer use Group Finder while grouped with your best friend. Boy, that's a bummer, right? But at least with that, you could find a work-around by filling your other two spots with guildmates or folks from zone chat and going directly into the dungeons, bypassing Group Finder entirely. Here, we don't even get that work-around - we have literally had a functionality that has existed for YEARS suddenly removed.

Does that help shed anymore light?

code65536 · June 20

DragonRacer wrote: »

Many folks on console sort by listing date if they aren't looking for something specific, but want to shop around.

As I said in my post, "I'm genuinely curious" because "I've literally never, ever sorted by listing age." So I wanted to understand why this was important, and your first explanation did not make sense to me, because you didn't have this sentence that I quote above. I hadn't considered the "I'm not looking for anything specific" scenario and was considering the "I'm searching for X" use case.

Now it makes more sense.

rG_Kub · June 20

katanagirl1 · June 20

On PS guild history is also deleted every time you log out too. I’m having a sense of deja vu in that we had this bug before and it has returned.

Any comments on that from the devs?

manukartofanu · June 20

code65536 wrote: »

Gambit001 wrote: »

I can tell you now as a member of 4 trading guilds, 2 of which are always in the big 3 cities, I’ve literally sold 1 item since the update, it’s definitely hurting sales.

Or it could be that people are busy doing the new content or grinding their subclassing and not interested in shopping?

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here: why do people care about the listing age? I play on PC (but I don't use any guild store addons) and I've literally never, ever sorted by listing age. I've only ever sorted by price.

My guess is that someone at ZOS thought something along the lines of, "We need to make space for the new collection icon. Wait, does anyone ever sort by age? Maybe we could get rid of that one to make room." And as someone who has never sorted by age, I can see the logic behind that.

Is there something console-specific that I'm missing here?

It has already been well explained in this thread. They don't have TTC to search for specific items. Browsing from trader to trader and ordering by price is time-consuming and extremely unproductive. So they use a well-known time-saving method — sorting by time to get the latest listings. We PC trading guys use the same approach.

Hypnotica713 · June 20

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, this was an intentional change made to make room for some new icons. However, the team is looking at a better way to format this to have sort by time back in for traders, while still having room for the icons. We have shared this thread with the team so they understand player sentiment around this. We will update once we have an solution to this. Thank you.

I don't understand why they had to make room for new icons when there were already icons in the space where the new ones are now. Those icons, namely the intricate, ornate, and research symbols, were in the spot where the new icons are located, but those are also gone as well. Yes, can still see it on the right where you're looking at the item, same as time left, but why take those away from where they were? I don't see any reason why they had to remove the time left column or the sorting by time or the symbols that were already in that space to make room for anything.

Destai · June 20

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, this was an intentional change made to make room for some new icons. However, the team is looking at a better way to format this to have sort by time back in for traders, while still having room for the icons. We have shared this thread with the team so they understand player sentiment around this. We will update once we have an solution to this. Thank you.

Can they just revert the change?

ZOS_Kevin · June 20

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

It most likely would not be enough time. Plus, pushing the event back causes all types of ripple effects for our calendar. When the event is so close, messing with things unless absolutely necessary may cause more issues. Since this was an intentional change, adjusting the event is unlikely.

Destai wrote: »

Can they just revert the change?

This is not something that can just be reverted. It was built this way for this package. So this is not a case of just reverting it back.

greenmachine86 · June 21

@ZOS_Kevin when there is group finder issues undaunted events have been pushed back. This is a major unannounced change to guild traders right before a guild trader event. As stated in this thread this is a major way how players on console search guild traders

Ishtarknows · June 21

DragonRacer wrote: »

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

That apparently adding a thing you wanted (sorting know/unknown) came at the price of REMOVING functionality you used every single day.

Had I known this was an either/or issue, I'd have preferred we keep what we had rather than remove existing functionality.

That's the crux of it, you cannot even SORT by unknown/known. You still have to trawl through all the pages to find that 1 thing you don't know. If I did that yesterday I don't want to do it again today, whereas sort by time means I only have to look through a day's worth.
I mean, it's not like you couldn't see easily enough before whether you knew the recipe or not.
The upshot of this unasked for substitution is that I feel disengaged from trading both buying and selling and I'm not the only one. Guildies are concerned about sales too.

antihero_kazuma · June 25

Any updates at all?

davidjaicob · June 27

couldn't it be put on the left browse box,
maybe 2 drop boxes like the quality one
a sort by and mabe an ascending/descending

BuffNukem · June 27

@ZOS_Kevin

This has been one of the worst changes made by ZoS in years. They didn't even mention it in the patch notes to hide it from early backlash.

PLEASE give back a way to filter listings by TIME!

Sorting by TIME is the most effective method for searching guild traders when you aren't specifically looking for very specific items or set of items that share a common name fragment. For example if I want to search the furnishing category for rare furnishings, after I spend a day to fully search each trader, the following days all I have to do is search by TIME and only look through listings that have 13-14 days remaining. This means on many big traders I only have to look through ~20 new listings rather than ~250 total listings.

It sounds like PC players & devs who have access to services like TTC, and have never had to do brute force broad search of guild traders for deals or broad items of interest, just don't get how import this feature has been to the console community.

Please reconsider!

jaws343 · June 27

Ishtarknows wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

That apparently adding a thing you wanted (sorting know/unknown) came at the price of REMOVING functionality you used every single day.

Had I known this was an either/or issue, I'd have preferred we keep what we had rather than remove existing functionality.

That's the crux of it, you cannot even SORT by unknown/known. You still have to trawl through all the pages to find that 1 thing you don't know. If I did that yesterday I don't want to do it again today, whereas sort by time means I only have to look through a day's worth.
I mean, it's not like you couldn't see easily enough before whether you knew the recipe or not.
The upshot of this unasked for substitution is that I feel disengaged from trading both buying and selling and I'm not the only one. Guildies are concerned about sales too.

I don't actually dislike this icon. It would be great to be able to sort by it though, and it would be better to be able to sort by Time again.

But, the icon does allow you to very quickly fast scroll through a page of listings and eyeball if you know something or not, rather than having to stop at each item on the page and review.

wowzerss · July 9

Soooo any word about why tf they removed the time remaining column from trader searches? No?

DragonRacer · July 9

An update from the user end:

If you are on a newer console, there is now an add-on that corrects ZOS's horrific mistake called Guild Trader Time Sort. This does not add the column back in, but on PS5, at least, you can now hit triangle while in a guild store and it will sort the store by time remaining like the good old days.

This does not help players on the older consoles, which do not have access to add-ons, so overall this being gone from the base function of the game is still absolutely awful.

loosej · July 9

DragonRacer wrote: »

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

While I don't disagree, this is also apparently NOT a glitch but an intentional change... not spoken of in advance or even listed in the patch notes, from what I can tell, just some unhappy surprise you found out about when you logged in after the update. That apparently adding a thing you wanted (sorting know/unknown) came at the price of REMOVING functionality you used every single day.

Had I known this was an either/or issue, I'd have preferred we keep what we had rather than remove existing functionality.

So zos delivered something commonly asked for in a way nobody asked for? I'm shocked

Joking aside, I used to trade a lot myself so I do hope this gets fixed real fast for you all.

cyclonus11 · July 9

loosej wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

In regards to the zeal of zenithar event, why not push the event back one week and hopefully that will be enough time to fix the trader glitch... Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic

While I don't disagree, this is also apparently NOT a glitch but an intentional change... not spoken of in advance or even listed in the patch notes, from what I can tell, just some unhappy surprise you found out about when you logged in after the update. That apparently adding a thing you wanted (sorting know/unknown) came at the price of REMOVING functionality you used every single day.

Had I known this was an either/or issue, I'd have preferred we keep what we had rather than remove existing functionality.

So zos delivered something commonly asked for in a way nobody asked for? I'm shocked

Joking aside, I used to trade a lot myself so I do hope this gets fixed real fast for you all.

You wanted giant hands, so we are giving you giant hands! To offset this wanted change, we removed your feet. Enjoy!