Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

Gotcha. I thought I saw some thread fixing in there, but I was confused.

I can't weave for a myriad of reasons. Latancy for one, pain in hands for 2, the shaking of my mouse while I am also using it to move for 3.

but ya, same here. 1 bar builds across the board. Sadly the diversity offered is sub optimal. Oakensoul needs to be buffed big time.

For one. Oakensoul should open up a 6th slot. So 6 abilities and 1 ult. The design reason for weapon swapping was to facilitate the need of console controllers who are limited in their actionable buttons.

There is a button to swap bars on console. This button would be mapped to the 6th ability. Of course PC can bind that anywhere they like.

The one think I hate about oakensoul is the missing of utility.

I see it like this regarding what we need on any given one bar build:

• Execute spell
• Heal
• Shield
• Spammable
• Dot
• AOE
• Utility
• Ultimate

So even if Oakensoul was given 1 more slot, it would still fall flat of what is required for gameplay at any given encounter.

slow and steady wins the race, yes but HA builds are not for everyone for a very good reason. they are just not exciting for alot of players and to be honest should not even be near 2 bar weaving numbers of dps although also not underperform as to accomodate a certain playstyle

Oakensoul should not be relegated to heavy attacks and I completely disagree that a one bar build should not perform near 2 bar weaving numbers.

This is not a matter of being lazy, this is a matter of accessibility

does not matter much anymore mate im sure absolutely everyone is going to find something in a classless system that fits in the way they want it to just fine

No, I'll be finding my fun back on my hunter in WOW when housing releases at the end of the year. I'll give subclassing a try, but I see very little appeal in it and I know for a fact battlegrounds are going to go extinct with the stupid amount of damage that will be put out.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.


FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

Hey, I gotta push back on your take—it’s coming off a bit elitist and misses what’s really going on. Flexing 90k DPS on your arcanist in a trials group? That’s honestly not cutting it for most serious teams who need higher numbers to clear without wiping. Those trial standards aren’t there to gatekeep; they’re about making sure the whole group doesn’t crash and burn. But you’re way off thinking a patch boosting casuals will just flood trials with ready players. DPS is only part of it—knowing mechanics, working as a team, and staying sharp matter just as much, and no patch is gonna gift-wrap that.

You’re twisting things by saying people think trial leaders are out to get them. Nobody’s saying that. The real issue is nerfs like “raising the floor, lowering the ceiling” that squish the skill gap and make mid-tier players—who bust their butts to get better—feel like their progress doesn’t matter. Won’t someone think of the poor mid-tier players? Your post kinda waves them off, acting like they should just deal with it while you and other top parsers “always find a way” to stay ahead. That’s got an elitist vibe, like the rest of the player base’s struggles don’t count as long as the high-end crowd’s fine.

Look, it’s not about bad attitudes—it’s about game changes that sap motivation for tons of players, not just the mid-tiers you’re shrugging at. Respectfully, your view feels disconnected from what most of the community’s grappling with, and it’s not really helping the convo. Let’s dig into the real problems instead.

No, I’m using my humble 90k dps on an arcanist that can do way more damage (like 135k I think) in other player’s hands as the fact that I am mid tier. Our team managed to get Dro-m’Athra Destroyer and only a couple of our team members could do more dps than that.

You’re the one who talked about gatekeeping. I hate that term. Do people say that med school is gatekeeping those who can’t score high enough to get in? Is it gatekeeping to not let people on the track team because they can’t run fast enough?

I am not an elitist. I struggled with 65k on my stamblade before arcanist came out. I can’t light weave worth a crap because I’m nearly 60 years old and my hands hurt.

You’re talking to the wrong person here.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

This is what I don't understand about weaving and the act of implementing it vs fixing the bug that it was.

Its a mechanic that reeks havoc on the hands and anyone suffering from arthritis, age aches and pains, or even a young but worn body, can not deal with. Its literally painful to do.

This is the kind of stuff that should be weeded out in the brainstorming stage of design. Its a bad idea, regardless of how many like it, its not inclusive to the community as a whole and literal bullying in game has happened countless times against those who do not weave (witnesses this first hand on multiple occasions).

they are not bullies they are nerds, bully is too much of a compliment. either way aslong as weaving/ani canc does not effect everyone those who enjoy it should do that. other than the trial dummies its not hurting anyone and has helped to raise standards of play in its time though. those that offered it as advice and a way to improve damage without forcing it down others throats were just trying to do a good thing. dont get me wrong im still crap at it but thats because i enjoy animations among other things, especially animations that used to be class specific. will feel wierd watching some outcast nightblade trying to be something else. but once the giggles die down it will be the norm again. weaving and getting as much damage on a dummy as possible. even if a person was rubbish at it just trying it and taking advice worked on everyone to get dps higher and thus gamplay more enjoyable. bar swapping is a very exciting part of the learning process and 1 bar builds do not help with that so rather than support one bar builds my advice to almost everyone would be to take advice from those who are good at weaving and ani cancelling over jumping into 1 bar builds for a more fun time in the long run. advice can be hard to swallow for some or just plain pushed on people by others but done correctly is all good. and looking back at your parse not even knowing where some of those light attacks came from is well idk, general rule of thumb for me has been anyone you meet at random all of a sudden goes insane on the group monitoring thier damage was probably treated like that from someone else and still thinks all players do that. it can look as though that is where it all stems from but its not like that. the general thing is the more damage you can press out as fast as possible the more fun content is and to be honest that is true even if always not needed and will deny writing this too, this message will soon self destruct

The first part of this is just wrong. You can say that weaving doesn’t have to be done, and everyone can find their place with it, but up until oakensorc and arcanist, if you were bad at it, you were effectively locked out of vet content.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@Daoin

These numbers come from a 31m hp trials dummy, which applies buffs to simulate being in a group, instead of a regular 3m hp dummy. I think the 65k dps stamblade parse was about 45k dps on a 3m hp dummy.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

but yes the constant bar swapping along with the light attacking killed my hands. The necro rotation is so much worse than stamblade.

This is what I don't understand about weaving and the act of implementing it vs fixing the bug that it was.

Its a mechanic that reeks havoc on the hands and anyone suffering from arthritis, age aches and pains, or even a young but worn body, can not deal with. Its literally painful to do.

This is the kind of stuff that should be weeded out in the brainstorming stage of design. Its a bad idea, regardless of how many like it, its not inclusive to the community as a whole and literal bullying in game has happened countless times against those who do not weave (witnesses this first hand on multiple occasions).

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's amazing that 11 years later, people are still arguing and complaining about weaving.

TaSheen wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin - that was katanagirl1's statement, not mine, though my hands are also an issue with weaving. And as well, why I have universally gone to 1 bar builds.

FoJul wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I'll use me for an example. I quit PvE shortly after RG first came out. I farmed veteran for my sticker book at the time. I think for my playstyle, Bahseis Mania/Kinra's Wrath was BiS for what I was doing. I was a full mageblade, using swallow soul as my spammable.

You can already see all the flaws. 1. who runs swallow soul? 2. Why am I not in proc sets? 3. Why are you playing ranged?

Well after some long years, Mageblade has been nerfed over and over again. I sat through all kinds of NB changes because melee was too strong, and Nb as a whole was broken in PvP. When it comes to PvE, its either a swallow soul build or nothing. I just won't play personally. I play that other big MMO quite often, and class fantasy is important in that game. So, I have the same mindset for this game.

So my point is, my mageblade even today with an updated proc set build, does not live up to standards. I don't have my logs anymore cause I've taken a massive break, but before I left my max parse with only 2 missed light attacks, and God tier weaving, was like 112k. Ridiculous. I moved it to the melee nb and instantly got 118k. (could have been higher but i hate melee, so I miss weaves)

I could make veteran clears, but just wasn't good enough for the prog team in my 2 guilds.

Now with subclassing, I haven't fully experimented with it yet for PvE , but I can obtain some dots and passives that can release me from shackles that I was bound to previously. If I can put myself in that 120-130k range with some other skill lines, maybe just maybe I can get into some HM or even Trifecta's.

That is if the Bar doesn't get raised before I have time to do what I need.

In Conclusion, I don't wanna be forced to play that god aweful class to complete content.

FoJul wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I'll use me for an example. I quit PvE shortly after RG first came out. I farmed veteran for my sticker book at the time. I think for my playstyle, Bahseis Mania/Kinra's Wrath was BiS for what I was doing. I was a full mageblade, using swallow soul as my spammable.

You can already see all the flaws. 1. who runs swallow soul? 2. Why am I not in proc sets? 3. Why are you playing ranged?

Well after some long years, Mageblade has been nerfed over and over again. I sat through all kinds of NB changes because melee was too strong, and Nb as a whole was broken in PvP. When it comes to PvE, its either a swallow soul build or nothing. I just won't play personally. I play that other big MMO quite often, and class fantasy is important in that game. So, I have the same mindset for this game.

So my point is, my mageblade even today with an updated proc set build, does not live up to standards. I don't have my logs anymore cause I've taken a massive break, but before I left my max parse with only 2 missed light attacks, and God tier weaving, was like 112k. Ridiculous. I moved it to the melee nb and instantly got 118k. (could have been higher but i hate melee, so I miss weaves)

I could make veteran clears, but just wasn't good enough for the prog team in my 2 guilds.

Now with subclassing, I haven't fully experimented with it yet for PvE , but I can obtain some dots and passives that can release me from shackles that I was bound to previously. If I can put myself in that 120-130k range with some other skill lines, maybe just maybe I can get into some HM or even Trifecta's.

That is if the Bar doesn't get raised before I have time to do what I need.

In Conclusion, I don't wanna be forced to play that god aweful class to complete content.

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I hope it's as broken as people seem to think it will be. I'm all in for it. I "retired" at the end of last year, but if this launches as people say, and lets me get vet-HM-type DPS, I will come back, do the grind to re-level all the skill lines I want to use, and finally complete a Veteshran trifecta.

Further, I hope this drives all the sweaty-weaving gatekeepers crazy and they leave the game over it.