Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction

Moonspawn · April 21

Jierdanit wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

I can tell that you find the concept of disliking challenge offensive for some reason, so maybe we should start using another word instead? Particularities?

You're surprised that I find something that is clearly meant so sound offensive offensive?

It must be some kind of strange cultural difference, then. There's absolutely nothing wrong with disliking the particularities of 3-sided. It's simply a matter of taste. Do you have the rest of the list of things you hate about 3-sided BGs?

Jierdanit wrote: »

First of all I stop acting like I said stuff I never did.
I don't hate "newcomers". I just don't think they should ever be in my BGs, since that is bad for both them and me.

But yes keep acting like the only reason I want 2 sided BGs is because I want to farm PvErs.

Also I wouldn't be opposed to 2-Team Custom Lobbies.
In addition to four 2-Team queues of course.

You want the entirety of Battlegrounds and every single one of its queue options to cater exclusively to the whims of the players who dislike the challenges of 3-sided. You want the newcomers to be unable to learn from said challenges no matter what. I have difficulty even imagining anything more selfish and hateful.

Jierdanit · April 22

Moonspawn wrote: »

It must be some kind of strange cultural difference, then. There's absolutely nothing wrong with disliking the particularities of 3-sided. It's simply a matter of taste. Do you have the rest of the list of things you hate about 3-sided BGs?

Really no reason to bother listing things when you're obviously just not prepared to accept that your opinion isn't necessarily perfect.

Moonspawn wrote: »

You want the entirety of Battlegrounds and every single one of its queue options to cater exclusively to the whims of the players who dislike the challenges of 3-sided. You want the newcomers to be unable to learn from said challenges no matter what. I have difficulty even imagining anything more selfish and hateful.

Seriously. List those "challenges" or just be quiet.

The only thing newcomers learned in 4v4v4 was hiding from fights and sneaking to objectives.

In 2-sided BGs they have to actually learn to PvP in order to be effective.
As they should.

If a player doesn't want to actually PvP (or learn how to) they should not be doing PvP.
And PvP should not be designed for them.
It's really pretty simple.

Also sure you can call me hateful and selfish if you want to.
I guess im also not supposed to be offended by that?

Moonspawn · April 22

Jierdanit wrote: »

Seriously. List those "challenges" or just be quiet.

You must have missed it. Here:

Moonspawn wrote: »

If you must know, the list of challenges @Jierdanit dislikes would be anything involving the presence of the third team: having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team). Since he'll be opposing the return of 3-sided until his dying breath, I assume the list goes on indefinitely?

I'm guessing these are only a few items. How am I supposed to know all the things you hate about the 3-sided format without you telling me?

Jierdanit · April 22

Moonspawn wrote: »

You must have missed it. Here:

If you must know, the list of challenges Jierdanit dislikes would be anything involving the presence of the third team: having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team). Since he'll be opposing the return of 3-sided until his dying breath, I assume the list goes on indefinitely?

I'm guessing these are only a few items. How am I supposed to know all the things you hate about the 3-sided format without you telling me?

Ah that seemed so absolutely ridiculous that I didn't think even you could really mean that.
Misjudged who I was talking to clearly.

So all the things you consider challenges are actually just the bad things about 3-sided BGs.

Moonspawn · April 22

Jierdanit wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

You must have missed it. Here:

If you must know, the list of challenges Jierdanit dislikes would be anything involving the presence of the third team: having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team). Since he'll be opposing the return of 3-sided until his dying breath, I assume the list goes on indefinitely?

I'm guessing these are only a few items. How am I supposed to know all the things you hate about the 3-sided format without you telling me?

Ah that seemed so absolutely ridiculous that I didn't think even you could really mean that.
Misjudged who I was talking to clearly.

So all the things you consider challenges are actually just the bad things about 3-sided BGs.

Exactly. The ''bad things'' that you hate so much about the 3-sided format are... its additional challenges.

Any more ''bad things'' to add to the list?

Haki_7 · April 23

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 74: Waiting 27 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Xe1h78PKM

Moonspawn · April 24

@Haki_7 how are EU queue times?

Sootica · April 24

It’s not just @Haki_7, a few of us get 15-30min 8v8 queue times during NA morning hours too (when asked after a long queue, teammates said took them only a few min/sec), and we play across at least 3 toons. It is a little bit better if queueing immediately after one bg ends to avoid “missing the cycle”; it also helps queuing both 4v4 and 8v8, though 4v4 almost always pops first and is more often one-sided than 8v8.

Haki_7 · April 24

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Haki_7 how are EU queue times?

Approaching NA levels. Feels pointless to have wasted so much time playing 300 ping BGs just to end up with the exact same problem I have on NA.

Chrisilis · April 24

The very first BG event after two teams were introduced was a two team domination weekend. Now we have ANOTHER two team domination weekend. They said there were going to be three team BG weekends and the in game tutorial states "Three team battlegrounds are available certain holiday weekends". Its been 8 months, what holiday, Christmas? What's it gonna be, a once a year event? Having three team events as often as two teams only seems fair, come on, when will there be a three team event?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

Moonspawn · April 24

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Haki_7 how are EU queue times?

Approaching NA levels. Feels pointless to have wasted so much time playing 300 ping BGs just to end up with the exact same problem I have on NA.

It wasn't pointless. It tells us it's not related to alliance rank, despite Zenimax claiming that it is. This is important information, since it's unlikely they'll bother to fix anything if the 3-sided format isn't returned soon to jump-start the growth of the BG community.

Any difference between the servers?

Haki_7 · April 25

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Haki_7 how are EU queue times?

Approaching NA levels. Feels pointless to have wasted so much time playing 300 ping BGs just to end up with the exact same problem I have on NA.

It wasn't pointless. It tells us it's not related to alliance rank, despite Zenimax claiming that it is. This is important information, since it's unlikely they'll bother to fix anything if the 3-sided format isn't returned soon to jump-start the growth of the BG community.

Any difference between the servers?

Just this recurring error. I have come to understand that it happens when I get a ping spike. Since no one else seems to be having the same issue I assume it's because my normal latency there is already red.

Jestir · April 25

You know one of the most "annoying" things in competitive gaming is called getting "third partied"

Honestly the "avoid PvP and take unguarded objectives" was absolutely the way to go to win in 4v4v4, if you didn't just absolutely slaughter both the other teams, why bother interacting with them

Joy_Division · April 25

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Haki_7 how are EU queue times?

Approaching NA levels. Feels pointless to have wasted so much time playing 300 ping BGs just to end up with the exact same problem I have on NA.

It wasn't pointless. It tells us it's not related to alliance rank, despite Zenimax claiming that it is. This is important information, since it's unlikely they'll bother to fix anything if the 3-sided format isn't returned soon to jump-start the growth of the BG community.

Any difference between the servers?

Just this recurring error. I have come to understand that it happens when I get a ping spike. Since no one else seems to be having the same issue I assume it's because my normal latency there is already red.

You aren;t the only one getting this error repeatedly

Moonspawn · April 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team). Since he'll be opposing the return of 3-sided until his dying breath, I assume the list goes on indefinitely?

No that's all of it.

Without @Jierdanit vitriolic hatred to guide me all I can do is guess:

4) Identifying an impossible victory and helping your teammates achieve second place.

Now that he knows that his list of bad things is actually comprised of important challenges from which the newcomers could learn, I can promise you that he'll be making sure that it never sees the light of day. This is a huge blow to the battleground community.

Jierdanit · April 25

Moonspawn wrote: »

Without Jierdanit vitriolic hatred to guide me all I can do is guess:

4) Identifying an impossible victory and helping your teammates achieve second place.

Now that he knows that his list of bad things is actually comprised of important challenges from which the newcomers could learn, I can promise you that he'll be making sure that it never sees the light of day. This is a huge blow to the battleground community.

Wtf are you even talking about honestly.

Also second place is not a victory

DigiAngel · April 25

If your goal is to get the daily bonus, then 2nd place is a W

Moonspawn · April 26

Jestir wrote: »

You know one of the most "annoying" things in competitive gaming is called getting "third partied"

Honestly the "avoid PvP and take unguarded objectives" was absolutely the way to go to win in 4v4v4, if you didn't just absolutely slaughter both the other teams, why bother interacting with them

Most PvPers would welcome the additional challenges of the 3-sided format. They contributed to making matches less lopsided.

Jierdanit · April 26

Moonspawn wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

You know one of the most "annoying" things in competitive gaming is called getting "third partied"

Honestly the "avoid PvP and take unguarded objectives" was absolutely the way to go to win in 4v4v4, if you didn't just absolutely slaughter both the other teams, why bother interacting with them

Most PvPers would welcome the additional challenges of the 3-sided format. They contributed to making matches less lopsided.

Wrong.

Moonspawn · April 26

Jierdanit wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

You know one of the most "annoying" things in competitive gaming is called getting "third partied"

Honestly the "avoid PvP and take unguarded objectives" was absolutely the way to go to win in 4v4v4, if you didn't just absolutely slaughter both the other teams, why bother interacting with them

Most PvPers would welcome the additional challenges of the 3-sided format. They contributed to making matches less lopsided.

Wrong.

Interesting. What would you say is the percentage of PvPers who dislike the particularities of the 3-sided format?

Major_Mangle · April 26

Mods should close this thread due to it´s non-constructive and spamming/necroing behavior going on.

Jierdanit · April 26

Moonspawn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

You know one of the most "annoying" things in competitive gaming is called getting "third partied"

Honestly the "avoid PvP and take unguarded objectives" was absolutely the way to go to win in 4v4v4, if you didn't just absolutely slaughter both the other teams, why bother interacting with them

Most PvPers would welcome the additional challenges of the 3-sided format. They contributed to making matches less lopsided.

Wrong.

Interesting. What would you say is the percentage of PvPers who dislike the particularities of the 3-sided format?

I dont know.

Neither do you.

Only thing I do know is that of the people I know most prefer 2 team BGs.

Moonspawn · April 26

Jierdanit wrote: »

I dont know.

Neither do you.

Pardon me, just trying to gauge the size of the EU hive mind. Judging by your reaction, the information must be classified.

Jierdanit wrote: »

Only thing I do know is that of the people I know most prefer 2 team BGs.

I don't like guessing either. Especially something as important as the list of things that you consider bad about the 3-sided format. Is there any chance at all that you will share it here?

Thumbless_Bot · April 26

Chrisilis wrote: »

The very first BG event after two teams were introduced was a two team domination weekend. Now we have ANOTHER two team domination weekend. They said there were going to be three team BG weekends and the in game tutorial states "Three team battlegrounds are available certain holiday weekends". Its been 8 months, what holiday, Christmas? What's it gonna be, a once a year event? Having three team events as often as two teams only seems fair, come on, when will there be a three team event?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

Moonspawn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

I dont know.

Neither do you.

Pardon me, just trying to gauge the size of the EU hive mind. Judging by your reaction, the information must be classified.

Jierdanit wrote: »

Only thing I do know is that of the people I know most prefer 2 team BGs.

I don't like guessing either. Especially something as important as the list of things that you consider bad about the 3-sided format. Is there any chance at all that you will share it here?

I think the general consensus is that 8v8 is okay/good/greatest thing since sliced bread and 4v4 is an abomination, almost universally disliked. 4v4v4 is preferred by a lot of people and most people in my eso social circles.

4v4 is loved by some. This is important.

Most comments I see want 8v8 and 4v4v4. However, I wouldn't want to get rid of 4v4 because there are some people who enjoy it and zos did spend time to develop it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668202/why-remove-a-functioning-part-of-the-game-bgs#latest

Just bring back 4v4v4 and call it a day. If the format you enjoy isn't that popular you will have to wait longer but at least you get to play the way you want.

This, of course, requires significant fixes to mmr, ideally simplification:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667624/mmr-that-makes-sense-and-is-easy-to-understand#latest

And, once they've implemented better mmr they need to stop resetting it so often. Resetting degrades the gaming experience for new and veteran players for a significant amount of time each time they do it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672304/mmr-reset-schedule#latest

xylena_lazarow · April 26

Moonspawn wrote: »

4) Identifying an impossible victory and helping your teammates achieve second place.

About time one of the 3-sided enjoyers admitted it's about playing for 2nd place. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I hope you would understand why more competitive players only care about playing for 1st.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

4v4 is loved by some. This is important... This, of course, requires significant fixes to mmr, ideally simplification

The format isn't inherently bad, but it doesn't work logistically. The game doesn't have a robust MMR system and you're kidding yourself if you think it ever will, nor does it have the queue population in the first place. No development problem is ever "simple" and game matchmaking is a notoriously difficult problem in computer science.

Moonspawn · April 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

4) Identifying an impossible victory and helping your teammates achieve second place.

About time one of the 3-sided enjoyers admitted it's about playing for 2nd place.

Nothing wrong with wanting to avoid this particular challenge. Or any of the others. It's about facing every single one of them.

DigiAngel wrote: »

If your goal is to get the daily bonus, then 2nd place is a W

It's not a win, but it did push players to keep fighting until the end.

Moonspawn · April 26

Moonspawn wrote: »

If you must know, the list of challenges @Jierdanit dislikes would be anything involving the presence of the third team: having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team). Since he'll be opposing the return of 3-sided until his dying breath, I assume the list goes on indefinitely?

Moonspawn wrote: »

4) Identifying an impossible victory and helping your teammates achieve second place.

5) Learning about positioning, target selection, teamwork and decision-making from the unique challenges of the 3-sided format.

Moonspawn · April 27

Moonspawn wrote: »

If you must know, the list of challenges @Jierdanit dislikes would be anything involving the presence of the third team: having to worry about killstealing (by the third team), the objective getting done uncontested (by the third team), and the possibility of being sandwiched (because of the third team).

@xylena_lazarow, Looks like my promise to you will be kept after all.

Moonspawn wrote: »

Now that he knows that his list of bad things is actually comprised of important challenges from which the newcomers could learn, I can promise you that he'll be making sure that it never sees the light of day. This is a huge blow to the battleground community.

By the way, regarding my 5th guess:

Moonspawn wrote: »

5) Learning about positioning, target selection, teamwork and decision-making from the unique challenges of the 3-sided format.

I know these are technically 4 different challenges. Hope you don't mind that I condensed them like that.

xylena_lazarow · April 27

Moonspawn wrote: »

positioning, target selection, teamwork and decision-making from the unique challenges of the 3-sided format

Looks like my promise to you will be kept after all.

No idea what promise you're talking about, you still haven't explained the 3-sided strats you're referring to. We do all these things in 2-sided also, can you articulate exactly how they differ in 3-sided?

Moonspawn · April 27

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

No idea what promise you're talking about,

This promise:

@Moonspawn wrote:

Now that he knows that his list of bad things is actually comprised of important challenges from which the newcomers could learn, I can promise you that he'll be making sure that it never sees the light of day.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

you still haven't explained the 3-sided strats you're referring to. We do all these things in 2-sided also, can you articulate exactly how they differ in 3-sided?

I don't recall any mention of ''3-sided strats''. Is there any difference between the formats, apart from the additional challenges of 3-sided?