We already have more difficult flights in Overland, but they don't offer greater rewards. Geysers, Harrowstorms, Vents and Incursions are way more difficult than the Dolmens they replaced. The same with DLC World Bosses that have gotten progressively more difficult than those in the base game. But I haven't noticed any greater rewards for the increased difficulty.

Then we need to consider who will be using a difficult Overland mode. There will be every type of player, including low level characters and those new to ESO, high level characters and everything in between. The loot table has to take all these types of players into consideration.

So we're back to the "vet overland shouldn't have better rewards" argument again. This thread really is just a big ol' circle.

Yes, vet overland should have better rewards. No, vet overland should not have exclusive rewards.

This doesn't need to be overly complicated. Other content in this game, from dungeons, trials, arenas, etc. all have "Normal" and "Vet" options. Give the same thing for overland. "Vet" versions of content have upgraded gear, increased gold drops, and increased XP. "Vet" overland should have the same thing. "Vet" overland should not have exclusive rewards because 1. it's not consistent with the rest of the game and 2. the content is not repeatable to go back and redo the content to get said rewards.

I also don't think anybody is advocating for exclusive drops and rewards outside of upgraded gear drops ("green" to "blue"), increased gold, increased XP.

I think the trick to making overland more fun is rare spawns from the dungeons. Select enemies from the local dungeon should spawn rarely and randomly and drop something from the local dungeon. This is what i call the visitor mechanic. Since each dungeon is in a zone that zone could get the occasional rare spawn visitor which would drop dungeon level loot not normally found in the zone.

this could spice up overland content a bit.

Cireous wrote: »

I want to fear for my life and spend a lot of time running away laughing.
Don't allow me to rez right where I die. I need stakes.
Give me an option for lethality not length.
Kill me, don't bore me.

If you don't want to rez where you die, then...you don't have to? Just because you have the option to do something doesn't mean you have to, you can opt to rez at a Wayshrine instead.

But exactly what "stakes" are there between rezzing where you are, and rezzing somewhere else? The only thing that changes is needing to travel back to where you died if you rez at a Wayshrine.

Ruthless wrote: »

could you build an addon that everytime you die you TP to a Random List of houses that have a MAze or Parkour and in order to rez you RP that you have to finish it, just a thought

YES.

Arunei wrote: »

Maybe I'm hung up on phrasing but there just aren't any stakes in rezzing away from where you died. It's a delay, and I genuinely don't see what challenge a self-imposed delay affords, I don't see how it makes Overland more difficult.

I think maybe they were asking for permadeath or some sort of other death penalties like losing all/some of your loot and having to go back and retrieve it?

I remember a long time ago there was a permadeath that was pretty lopsided but this was years ago so maybe people would be more open to it now. Different user though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609495/what-are-you-thoughts-on-having-consequences-upon-death-in-eso/p1

My opinion hasn't changed and it's a no for me, personally on that thread.

But death penalty seems to be more popular these days in games

Cireous wrote: »

Ruthless wrote: »

could you build an addon that everytime you die you TP to a Random List of houses that have a MAze or Parkour and in order to rez you RP that you have to finish it, just a thought

YES.

Will you

Arunei wrote: »

Maybe I'm hung up on phrasing but there just aren't any stakes in rezzing away from where you died. It's a delay, and I genuinely don't see what challenge a self-imposed delay affords, I don't see how it makes Overland more difficult.

Time is the thing you lose. Time is always the most important thing. Not that I think it would be very fun to have to run back from whatever wayshrine you came from, nor do I think it would be great in an MMO setting, but it's not nothing. Personally I think losing more armor durability is probably a better idea, and maybe, possibly incurring a death debuff if you're particularly masochistic.

Arunei wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Maybe I'm hung up on phrasing but there just aren't any stakes in rezzing away from where you died. It's a delay, and I genuinely don't see what challenge a self-imposed delay affords, I don't see how it makes Overland more difficult.

Time is the thing you lose. Time is always the most important thing. Not that I think it would be very fun to have to run back from whatever wayshrine you came from, nor do I think it would be great in an MMO setting, but it's not nothing. Personally I think losing more armor durability is probably a better idea, and maybe, possibly incurring a death debuff if you're particularly masochistic.

I guess my thing is I don't equate spending time doing X or Y before getting back to the actual content you died in as challenging. It just...delays you getting back to whatever you were doing. That doesn't make anything harder, it just makes it take longer.

As someone who played EverQuest at its release, the purpose of respawning and running back to where you were at is due to a sense of danger and adventure to the journey. When death doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter when you lose and die. When death does matter, it makes you take care and caution, adding a greater sense of danger and adventure.

I'm not necessarily advocating for increased death mechanics in ESO, rather just clarifying the purpose of death mechanics.

Franchise408 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Maybe I'm hung up on phrasing but there just aren't any stakes in rezzing away from where you died. It's a delay, and I genuinely don't see what challenge a self-imposed delay affords, I don't see how it makes Overland more difficult.

Time is the thing you lose. Time is always the most important thing. Not that I think it would be very fun to have to run back from whatever wayshrine you came from, nor do I think it would be great in an MMO setting, but it's not nothing. Personally I think losing more armor durability is probably a better idea, and maybe, possibly incurring a death debuff if you're particularly masochistic.

I guess my thing is I don't equate spending time doing X or Y before getting back to the actual content you died in as challenging. It just...delays you getting back to whatever you were doing. That doesn't make anything harder, it just makes it take longer.

As someone who played EverQuest at its release, the purpose of respawning and running back to where you were at is due to a sense of danger and adventure to the journey. When death doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter when you lose and die. When death does matter, it makes you take care and caution, adding a greater sense of danger and adventure.

I'm not necessarily advocating for increased death mechanics in ESO, rather just clarifying the purpose of death mechanics.

I played EQ from the beginning as well, and my experience with their death model wasn't that it created a sense of danger. . . it just made you hate your fellow players. Level all day in Lower Guk and have it all wiped out by one train to the zone from someone else who didn't care if anyone was in the way or not. I didn't mind WoW's model where you either had to travel back to your body or suffer rez sickness, but I think we have evolved as a society past the point where a game should be overly punishing when many things are outside your control.

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Maybe I'm hung up on phrasing but there just aren't any stakes in rezzing away from where you died. It's a delay, and I genuinely don't see what challenge a self-imposed delay affords, I don't see how it makes Overland more difficult.

Time is the thing you lose. Time is always the most important thing. Not that I think it would be very fun to have to run back from whatever wayshrine you came from, nor do I think it would be great in an MMO setting, but it's not nothing. Personally I think losing more armor durability is probably a better idea, and maybe, possibly incurring a death debuff if you're particularly masochistic.

I guess my thing is I don't equate spending time doing X or Y before getting back to the actual content you died in as challenging. It just...delays you getting back to whatever you were doing. That doesn't make anything harder, it just makes it take longer.

As someone who played EverQuest at its release, the purpose of respawning and running back to where you were at is due to a sense of danger and adventure to the journey. When death doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter when you lose and die. When death does matter, it makes you take care and caution, adding a greater sense of danger and adventure.

I'm not necessarily advocating for increased death mechanics in ESO, rather just clarifying the purpose of death mechanics.

I played EQ from the beginning as well, and my experience with their death model wasn't that it created a sense of danger. . . it just made you hate your fellow players. Level all day in Lower Guk and have it all wiped out by one train to the zone from someone else who didn't care if anyone was in the way or not. I didn't mind WoW's model where you either had to travel back to your body or suffer rez sickness, but I think we have evolved as a society past the point where a game should be overly punishing when many things are outside your control.

But it did evolve. You can't create death thrains in this game. Mobs you pull from their place won't attack other players automatically.

Just going to say I kind of just want to see a harder content system with increase gold/exp with an increase of rarity drops and to actually fight mobs and quest bosses as an actual threat rather than an enemy I could set the controller down, make myself a cup of coffee, make myself an egg sandwich, come back, still not die, and then proceed to beat the BBG in like 30 seconds. Honestly just being able to fight the boss for about the same amount of time as I usually do a vanilla world boss would be fun. I am mostly just looking for a system that makes my adventures feel more impactful.

Still would like to have some way to make this adjustable and set how difficult such content is (scaling system would be 1 to 5 levels above the character level for instance (I have no idea of actual scaling numbers though)). Main idea is to make the questing fun for those seeking harder fights while not forcing the more casual audience to play said difficulty.

This would be my ideal anyway.

Cireous wrote: »

If you up the difficulty of the game, but can simply rez up exactly where you died, as if nothing happened, every time you die, then the extra difficulty becomes meaningless. And, yes, it's the adventure of having to fight your way back to the challenging quest content that makes it so much fun. This is a single player Elder Scrolls perspective.

I would love to be given the option to render both soul gems and way shrines unusable, because l will use them if I can't shut them off somehow; the Inns and my homes serving as the only rez point. This would increase immersion and, also, the motivation to purchase and decorate as many homes as possible. This turns buying homes into part of the progression of your character.

But why use them if you don't want to? If it's impulse then just destroy them or put them in your bank. I mean I still don't think myself having to run back makes anything harder, but other people do and I don't have to think something for others to.

But this option already exists, the game shouldn't have to force it on anyone. If you don't wanna rez where you die, then only use your Houses. Only rez into a Dungeon and clear it and leave. Rez and then port to a friend or guild mate and then run back to where you were. Destroy Soul Gems or leave them in your bank since they are kinda needed for Weapon recharging, or just...don't use them if you keep them on you. This is something people already 100% can do if it would help them enjoy the game more.

sans-culottes wrote: »

Kallykat wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Taraezor wrote: »

Adding my two-bob's worth...

With opt-in difficulty please do NOT provide extra or better rewards beyond: more gold, more XP, more white/green gear trash. Ie: nothing that could be construed as significant enough that less able / old (senior) / newcomers / handicapped / casual players feel they are missing out.

I am in a couple of those above categories.

Many long time players want increased difficulty. But many long time players are also fearful that they'll be locked out of content too. I am already locked out of Trials and high level PvP. I don't want to be locked out of Overland content too.

Sure, make the vocal group clammouring for more difficulty happy. Give them that but nothing more and make it opt in. That means that the rest of us can continue on as per normal playing the greatest ever MMORPG!

@Taraezor, rewards like cosmetics and titles already exist behind content that not everyone can or wants to complete. That has been the case for years. Trials, veteran dungeons, and hard modes have exclusive rewards, yet no one claims those systems are exclusionary.

Optional difficulty needs an incentive. Players who opt in to a harder experience should not be expected to accept slower XP, more risk, and longer fights with nothing in return. That is not a power grab. It is basic game design.

No one is being “locked out” by someone else choosing to play differently. Suggesting otherwise relies on imagined harm to justify denying others the chance to enjoy the game more fully.

That's precisely why players who can't participate in trials, dungeons, etc., who are already locked out of exclusive rewards from that content, don't want there to be even more unobtainable exclusive rewards added to an overland hard mode.

The incentive, supposedly, is the enjoyment and challenge people have been requesting. People who are not eager to jump into overland hard mode for its own sake don't need an incentive to do so. Why should ZOS incentivize people to play in overland hard mode? And how is keeping the rewards the same "denying others the chance to enjoy the game more" when supposedly enjoying the game more comes from more difficult overland content?

Maybe "locked out" isn't the best term, but rewards that are only obtainable through challenging content are not accessible to all players (for a variety of reasons which multiple people have already laid out on this board). It's not that those players want to punish others who "play differently." It's that they don't want to miss out on yet more rewards.

@Kallykat, but that’s just it. Those kinds of rewards already exist and always have. No one is retroactively stripping titles or skins from veteran players because someone else can’t or won’t run veteran content. Optional difficulty in overland would follow the same model: those who opt in take on greater risk, and they receive proportionate recognition. That’s not exclusion, it’s just consistency.

If someone doesn’t engage with trials, then they don’t get trial rewards. That’s understood. Applying that same principle to opt-in overland content is not suddenly unfair. Otherwise, the only “acceptable” reward system would be one where every player gets the same outcome regardless of what they choose to engage with. That’s not how RPGs are built, and it never has been.

People do Trials and HM Vet Dungeons and other hard content not because they want the challenge, but because they want the loot. People wanting harder Overland are wanting Overland itself to be more challenging so they find it fun, rather than boring. They don't need to be lured to the content with exclusive things like Skins because that's not what the reward is. The reward is the higher difficulty.

Why should anything exclusive be locked behind harder Overland when that content itself, not what can be earned, is the whole point of it? Increased reward in Gold, experience, the quality of Gear drops, stuff like that is fine and makes sense. But it makes less sense to lock exclusive things behind a game mode that isn't meant to reward you with anything other than increased difficulty so the gameplay isn't boring.

Does anyone else really wish this was rolled out with subclassing so you could use it on alts that are subclassed? Just realized that not having them both at the same time feels like a miss to me.

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Does anyone else really wish this was rolled out with subclassing so you could use it on alts that are subclassed? Just realized that not having them both at the same time feels like a miss to me.

What rolled out? I'm lost....

Nothing yet. I mean, I wish they had debuted whatever mystery system they have cooking at the same time as subclassing. Sorry, I could have been more clear there.