Subclasses Will Lead to a Homogenous Game as Evidenced by Hybridization

tom6143346 · April 13

I m shure there will be absolute broken builds incoming, so nerfs to some skills will be inevitable. So far so good right ? No bc if you still was playing let’s say your old shook dk without subclassing you have already a disadvantage, and when let’s say there is a skill in dk s toolkit , that needs to get nerfed bc it overpreforme somewhere else you get hit even more . We seen this so often before in similar situations with skills , sets etc. why should it be this time different. ?

tomofhyrule · April 13

tom6143346 wrote: »

I m shure there will be absolute broken builds incoming, so nerfs to some skills will be inevitable. So far so good right ? No bc if you still was playing let’s say your old shook dk without subclassing you have already a disadvantage, and when let’s say there is a skill in dk s toolkit , that needs to get nerfed bc it overpreforme somewhere else you get hit even more . We seen this so often before in similar situations with skills , sets etc. why should it be this time different. ?

One of the issues will be that that nerf is not due to a mixture, and yet it affects more people than just the ones using that mixture. Before, if a DK skill was OP and was nerfed, that affected the DKs who used that skill - other classes and DKs who didn't use that skill didn't have an issue.

Now, if there's something that's OP because of a combo (like imagine the Necro Rapid Rot passive buffing Templar Radiant Oppressions since it's a DoT), that's harder to deal with. Do you nerf the Rapid Rot passive (which screws over necros who don't take Radiant Oppression since the other DoTs they use are not OP and now are underpowered) or the Radiant Oppression skill (which screws Templars who don't take that Necro line, meaning that they may have a power loss without any power assist)?

ceruulean · April 13

They have to make the subclassed skills lines weaker than their originals. So the subclassed lines are account-wide but distinctly separate from a character's original class lines.

ForumBully · April 13

ceruulean wrote: »

They have to make the subclassed skills lines weaker than their originals. So the subclassed lines are account-wide but distinctly separate from a character's original class lines.

If they're going to do that they should just scrap the entire idea instead. I doubt they're going to do that.

Juju_beans · April 13

I can picture everyone running around using Templar's jab along with Arcanist's book.

Lags · April 13

tomofhyrule wrote: »

tom6143346 wrote: »

I m shure there will be absolute broken builds incoming, so nerfs to some skills will be inevitable. So far so good right ? No bc if you still was playing let’s say your old shook dk without subclassing you have already a disadvantage, and when let’s say there is a skill in dk s toolkit , that needs to get nerfed bc it overpreforme somewhere else you get hit even more . We seen this so often before in similar situations with skills , sets etc. why should it be this time different. ?

One of the issues will be that that nerf is not due to a mixture, and yet it affects more people than just the ones using that mixture. Before, if a DK skill was OP and was nerfed, that affected the DKs who used that skill - other classes and DKs who didn't use that skill didn't have an issue.

Now, if there's something that's OP because of a combo (like imagine the Necro Rapid Rot passive buffing Templar Radiant Oppressions since it's a DoT), that's harder to deal with. Do you nerf the Rapid Rot passive (which screws over necros who don't take Radiant Oppression since the other DoTs they use are not OP and now are underpowered) or the Radiant Oppression skill (which screws Templars who don't take that Necro line, meaning that they may have a power loss without any power assist)?

I think its safe to go ahead and assume that all regular classes will be DOA when this goes live. Its just the nature of things like this. At least when you're talking about people who want to use what is strongest. Because as you said, now they have to think about however many skill line combos. So things will be nerfed inevitably. And they have shown they cannot balance this game, even when they are trying to standardize everything. Which actually makes me wonder how long they've been planning this. Standardization is one of the worst things for an mmorpg. Its like they've been sucking the soul out of this game for the last 5 years slowly but surely.

Lags · April 13

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

It is absolutely fair to have those opinions about all of these detail points, but it is a bit of a cheap out to say that the people who like the overall trajectory of combat changes are not playing PvP, or at least not properly. The last few patches before U35 hit were pressure nightmare with nearly complete stamina build domination and, for all the faults that the later updates had, just an outdated and restrictive version of ESO PvP with different problems. Even through rose tinted glasses, there is nothing from that time that I miss or that wouldn't still be somewhat viable. You can tell yourself that everyone who doesn't yearn for Jabs spam, Dizzy spam, Savage WW bowsorc and CP1.0 is a filthy casual, but that is probably not enough to make these opinions go away.

PvP in the past had its own distinct shortcomings and just less options. But I am at least a bit amused, that half of the doomsaying is always "Noobs will get stomped when this goes live", while the other half claims "everything will be dumbed down and casual". If, for example, I had to decide right now between 2021 PvP and 2025 PvP, I would never pick the 2021 version. Yes, some things were better and some new things blow hard, but overall it is just lame compared to the options we have now. I think it will be especially fun to keep your opponent guessing as to what skill lines you are bringing in the new update. Sounds fun to me at least.

As far as performance goes, I agree, but I think everyone is wishing it would be better.

you missed most of the point i was making. Every time they make a combat change the game is worse for it. And I dont think anyone would say that things were perfectly balanced in any given update in the past. Some were worse than others. Sure the time around high isle had balance issues. Most updates have had balance issues.

But if you're opinion is that things are better now then great, im happy you're happy. Just dont blame me for wondering if were playing the same game. Because rose tinted glasses or not, pvp has only gotten worse every year. Meaning it was better in the past, even if it had issues. Less population, worse performance, and I M O worse balance. Maybe not even that balance is worse than it was 2 years ago, maybe just that the balance issues have not been addressed.

Ive said it a million times and ill say it again, how long are people supposed to stick around when issues dont get addressed? How long do you trust in the team? That combined with performance that only gets worse year after year. So no i dont think things are better now. Plus some of these issues, like over healing, heal stacking, and ball groups, are things that zos has to know about. Things that people have been begging them to address. And they ignore the suggestions, and pretend theres no issue.

So like i said, i i think this will be a massive disaster for balance. But it doesnt really matter. They might as well torch it with the way things are going and let people go crazy. So while this is 100% the end of class identity, even though it was pretty dead after the hybrid changes, im not completely against it. If they were never going to backtrack on the hybrid changes, which they werent zos does not backtrack, then it is what it is.

amiiegee · April 13

Stamicka wrote: »

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1

Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

Thanks for long detailew inthoughts like yours.

I couldnt agree more.
Im praying for this to not be released because i feel like its a bad idea to change the running system.

gc0018 · April 14

I played every class at some degree to choice what I really like. Now, they are telling me every class is almost the same with at least 66% similarity. It is just ruining RP feeling. Hybridization is not a bad idea but need to be applied with certain limitation and rule. It is not Trump's tariff

Better start with swapping certain skill, if thing goes well than swap a skillline.

Vaqual · April 14

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

It is absolutely fair to have those opinions about all of these detail points, but it is a bit of a cheap out to say that the people who like the overall trajectory of combat changes are not playing PvP, or at least not properly. The last few patches before U35 hit were pressure nightmare with nearly complete stamina build domination and, for all the faults that the later updates had, just an outdated and restrictive version of ESO PvP with different problems. Even through rose tinted glasses, there is nothing from that time that I miss or that wouldn't still be somewhat viable. You can tell yourself that everyone who doesn't yearn for Jabs spam, Dizzy spam, Savage WW bowsorc and CP1.0 is a filthy casual, but that is probably not enough to make these opinions go away.

PvP in the past had its own distinct shortcomings and just less options. But I am at least a bit amused, that half of the doomsaying is always "Noobs will get stomped when this goes live", while the other half claims "everything will be dumbed down and casual". If, for example, I had to decide right now between 2021 PvP and 2025 PvP, I would never pick the 2021 version. Yes, some things were better and some new things blow hard, but overall it is just lame compared to the options we have now. I think it will be especially fun to keep your opponent guessing as to what skill lines you are bringing in the new update. Sounds fun to me at least.

As far as performance goes, I agree, but I think everyone is wishing it would be better.

you missed most of the point i was making. Every time they make a combat change the game is worse for it. And I dont think anyone would say that things were perfectly balanced in any given update in the past. Some were worse than others. Sure the time around high isle had balance issues. Most updates have had balance issues.

But if you're opinion is that things are better now then great, im happy you're happy. Just dont blame me for wondering if were playing the same game. Because rose tinted glasses or not, pvp has only gotten worse every year. Meaning it was better in the past, even if it had issues. Less population, worse performance, and I M O worse balance. Maybe not even that balance is worse than it was 2 years ago, maybe just that the balance issues have not been addressed.

Ive said it a million times and ill say it again, how long are people supposed to stick around when issues dont get addressed? How long do you trust in the team? That combined with performance that only gets worse year after year. So no i dont think things are better now. Plus some of these issues, like over healing, heal stacking, and ball groups, are things that zos has to know about. Things that people have been begging them to address. And they ignore the suggestions, and pretend theres no issue.

So like i said, i i think this will be a massive disaster for balance. But it doesnt really matter. They might as well torch it with the way things are going and let people go crazy. So while this is 100% the end of class identity, even though it was pretty dead after the hybrid changes, im not completely against it. If they were never going to backtrack on the hybrid changes, which they werent zos does not backtrack, then it is what it is.

Sorry if I missed the mark.
Your point about issues not being addressed is of course right and I am already multiplying all possible negatives with the ZOS-factor here.
They have been slow to acknowledge, fix or at least explain many bad decisions. I will continue to be critical about the things I perceive as serious issues. But I also have to credit them where it is due and for me scribing has brought a lot of fun and variety. In the same way, despite all its problems, hybridization has allowed me to play more of what I like and to cut out things I dislike (never slotting Caltrops, Trap Beast or Rally again). And regarding communication, Kevin has really had a positive impact.
We are sure to be massively annoyed by lots of things when this goes live. Nevertheless, between continuing onward with the same dreary balance/meta landscape and another landscape with amazing options and possibly horrendous downsides I'd still choose the latter. I would be much less optimistic if they were going back on there latest changes.

Ragnarok0130 · April 14

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

It is absolutely fair to have those opinions about all of these detail points, but it is a bit of a cheap out to say that the people who like the overall trajectory of combat changes are not playing PvP, or at least not properly. The last few patches before U35 hit were pressure nightmare with nearly complete stamina build domination and, for all the faults that the later updates had, just an outdated and restrictive version of ESO PvP with different problems. Even through rose tinted glasses, there is nothing from that time that I miss or that wouldn't still be somewhat viable. You can tell yourself that everyone who doesn't yearn for Jabs spam, Dizzy spam, Savage WW bowsorc and CP1.0 is a filthy casual, but that is probably not enough to make these opinions go away.

PvP in the past had its own distinct shortcomings and just less options. But I am at least a bit amused, that half of the doomsaying is always "Noobs will get stomped when this goes live", while the other half claims "everything will be dumbed down and casual". If, for example, I had to decide right now between 2021 PvP and 2025 PvP, I would never pick the 2021 version. Yes, some things were better and some new things blow hard, but overall it is just lame compared to the options we have now. I think it will be especially fun to keep your opponent guessing as to what skill lines you are bringing in the new update. Sounds fun to me at least.

As far as performance goes, I agree, but I think everyone is wishing it would be better.

you missed most of the point i was making. Every time they make a combat change the game is worse for it. And I dont think anyone would say that things were perfectly balanced in any given update in the past. Some were worse than others. Sure the time around high isle had balance issues. Most updates have had balance issues.

But if you're opinion is that things are better now then great, im happy you're happy. Just dont blame me for wondering if were playing the same game. Because rose tinted glasses or not, pvp has only gotten worse every year. Meaning it was better in the past, even if it had issues. Less population, worse performance, and I M O worse balance. Maybe not even that balance is worse than it was 2 years ago, maybe just that the balance issues have not been addressed.

Ive said it a million times and ill say it again, how long are people supposed to stick around when issues dont get addressed? How long do you trust in the team? That combined with performance that only gets worse year after year. So no i dont think things are better now. Plus some of these issues, like over healing, heal stacking, and ball groups, are things that zos has to know about. Things that people have been begging them to address. And they ignore the suggestions, and pretend theres no issue.

So like i said, i i think this will be a massive disaster for balance. But it doesnt really matter. They might as well torch it with the way things are going and let people go crazy. So while this is 100% the end of class identity, even though it was pretty dead after the hybrid changes, im not completely against it. If they were never going to backtrack on the hybrid changes, which they werent zos does not backtrack, then it is what it is.

Sorry if I missed the mark.
Your point about issues not being addressed is of course right and I am already multiplying all possible negatives with the ZOS-factor here.
They have been slow to acknowledge, fix or at least explain many bad decisions. I will continue to be critical about the things I perceive as serious issues. But I also have to credit them where it is due and for me scribing has brought a lot of fun and variety. In the same way, despite all its problems, hybridization has allowed me to play more of what I like and to cut out things I dislike (never slotting Caltrops, Trap Beast or Rally again). And regarding communication, Kevin has really had a positive impact.
We are sure to be massively annoyed by lots of things when this goes live. Nevertheless, between continuing onward with the same dreary balance/meta landscape and another landscape with amazing options and possibly horrendous downsides I'd still choose the latter. I would be much less optimistic if they were going back on there latest changes.

Kevin is great but he is not the studio, he's community management so no matter how good Kevin is we can't extend his good performance and rapport with the community to the studio that has proven time again that they're not up to task balancing the game as it is let alone the much more complicated version that comes with sub-classing.

If the combat team from the past 4 years worked for me I'd fire all of them for failure to perform because the current state isn't an isolated incident it's the norm and the only thing we can assume with the current team is that things will get worse. If we had a solid and responsive combat team with few issues over the past few years I'd cut them slack and give them the benefit of the doubt but this current team has earned no such luxury.

Lags · April 14

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

It is absolutely fair to have those opinions about all of these detail points, but it is a bit of a cheap out to say that the people who like the overall trajectory of combat changes are not playing PvP, or at least not properly. The last few patches before U35 hit were pressure nightmare with nearly complete stamina build domination and, for all the faults that the later updates had, just an outdated and restrictive version of ESO PvP with different problems. Even through rose tinted glasses, there is nothing from that time that I miss or that wouldn't still be somewhat viable. You can tell yourself that everyone who doesn't yearn for Jabs spam, Dizzy spam, Savage WW bowsorc and CP1.0 is a filthy casual, but that is probably not enough to make these opinions go away.

PvP in the past had its own distinct shortcomings and just less options. But I am at least a bit amused, that half of the doomsaying is always "Noobs will get stomped when this goes live", while the other half claims "everything will be dumbed down and casual". If, for example, I had to decide right now between 2021 PvP and 2025 PvP, I would never pick the 2021 version. Yes, some things were better and some new things blow hard, but overall it is just lame compared to the options we have now. I think it will be especially fun to keep your opponent guessing as to what skill lines you are bringing in the new update. Sounds fun to me at least.

As far as performance goes, I agree, but I think everyone is wishing it would be better.

you missed most of the point i was making. Every time they make a combat change the game is worse for it. And I dont think anyone would say that things were perfectly balanced in any given update in the past. Some were worse than others. Sure the time around high isle had balance issues. Most updates have had balance issues.

But if you're opinion is that things are better now then great, im happy you're happy. Just dont blame me for wondering if were playing the same game. Because rose tinted glasses or not, pvp has only gotten worse every year. Meaning it was better in the past, even if it had issues. Less population, worse performance, and I M O worse balance. Maybe not even that balance is worse than it was 2 years ago, maybe just that the balance issues have not been addressed.

Ive said it a million times and ill say it again, how long are people supposed to stick around when issues dont get addressed? How long do you trust in the team? That combined with performance that only gets worse year after year. So no i dont think things are better now. Plus some of these issues, like over healing, heal stacking, and ball groups, are things that zos has to know about. Things that people have been begging them to address. And they ignore the suggestions, and pretend theres no issue.

So like i said, i i think this will be a massive disaster for balance. But it doesnt really matter. They might as well torch it with the way things are going and let people go crazy. So while this is 100% the end of class identity, even though it was pretty dead after the hybrid changes, im not completely against it. If they were never going to backtrack on the hybrid changes, which they werent zos does not backtrack, then it is what it is.

Sorry if I missed the mark.
Your point about issues not being addressed is of course right and I am already multiplying all possible negatives with the ZOS-factor here.
They have been slow to acknowledge, fix or at least explain many bad decisions. I will continue to be critical about the things I perceive as serious issues. But I also have to credit them where it is due and for me scribing has brought a lot of fun and variety. In the same way, despite all its problems, hybridization has allowed me to play more of what I like and to cut out things I dislike (never slotting Caltrops, Trap Beast or Rally again). And regarding communication, Kevin has really had a positive impact.
We are sure to be massively annoyed by lots of things when this goes live. Nevertheless, between continuing onward with the same dreary balance/meta landscape and another landscape with amazing options and possibly horrendous downsides I'd still choose the latter. I would be much less optimistic if they were going back on there latest changes.

Its just a difference of opinion then. I think hybridization looked like it would give people more options, but in the end it shrunk the options we had. Just like this will. Because yes you can say " you dont have to run the meta" but that doesnt actually play out when things get competitive. If you want to play any form of competitive-ish pvp, like mainly whenever you have to fight outnumbered, you're going to run something strong. And if you hope to get into solid pve groups, for harder content, you're going to run whats strong.

I always tell people a lot of the pve content we have was done when people had way less dps and access to a lot less sets, but it doesnt matter. In any mmo, people want you to run what is best, or close to it. Its as simple as the faster and more efficient things are done, the better.

But on the other hand, you always have people that will run whatever to different degrees of success. Before the hybrid changes i knew of multiple people who ran hybrid builds in pvp and were good. Nightblades, templars, dks. It was possible, even if it wasnt as strong as some meta builds. But now most builds are hybrid. Running a class that purely focuses on stam or mag is the weaker option, so i guess things have just reversed there. But it felt like it cut the amount of classes in half, to a degree. Because a stam sorc was very different from a mag sorc, etc.

So in the end it will be the same with sub classes. I think on the surface it will look like a lot more variety, but eventually what is strongest will set in. And the base classes will be left behind. But im not even as concerned about that as much as i am about the balance. It will be interesting though. Part of me is excited and the other part feels like base game classes will be hurt by the inevitable nerfs, and will become a thing of a the past. And that we will see more toxic builds than ever in pvp. And if they nerf those builds then, again, the base classes are what suffer. But we shall see.

As for kevin, i lost all faith in that guy after i bought into his whole bit about how he wanted to work on forum moderation, and in game moderation, and how he wanted to talk to players to see how they felt about forum moderation, and then within a week i got moderated for yet another extremely silly reason. And he completely ignored my message about it. And im pretty sure that same week my friend got AI auto banned for whispering me in game. You would think i would learn after all these years. Certain things just do not change with zenimax.

Kevin sounds like a nice guy, sounds like he cares, and chimes in more than others from zos, so you're right about his communication, but in the end i imagine he cant do much which is probably why he never responded to my message. Which wasnt an appeal, just asking for clarity about what seemed like a really silly thing to get moderated over. And clarity is something that support doesnt give, they just give you a vague rule that apparently you broke, send you your entire post, and say somewhere in those 4 paragraphs you broke this rule, good luck.

Wereswan · April 14

Juju_beans wrote: »

I can picture everyone running around using Templar's jab along with Arcanist's book.

Puncturing Sweeps and its morphs, Radiant Destruction and its morphs, and Fatecarver and its morphs are already getting nerfed on PTS - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209/pts-patch-notes-v11-0-0#latest

Alaztor91 · April 15

Non-Pet Sorc is already getting screwed because of this lol. Years of changes made to improve the non-Pet Sorc playstyle(which used to be the strongest of the 2 in PvE DPS at least) just for it to end up with ''if you don't like pets just swap the skill tree''.

supabicboi · April 15

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Non-Pet Sorc is already getting screwed because of this lol. Years of changes made to improve the non-Pet Sorc playstyle(which used to be the strongest of the 2 in PvE DPS at least) just for it to end up with ''if you don't like pets just swap the skill tree''.

yes. its over.

Wereswan · April 15

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Non-Pet Sorc is already getting screwed because of this lol. Years of changes made to improve the non-Pet Sorc playstyle(which used to be the strongest of the 2 in PvE DPS at least) just for it to end up with ''if you don't like pets just swap the skill tree''.

...wow.

I was expecting "if you don't like the nerfs, you can just swap out the skill line" to be the attitude from the players that support this, but seeing it from an actual ZOS employee is distressing.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 15

I'm shocked at your response, guys, genuinely.

"If you don't like pets, just swap the skill tree" is a godsend, lol.

"I don't want to run pets"
"Then don't"
"I HATE THIS, WHY TAKE PET SKILL LINE FROM ME!"
^ what I read

I saw that change as "instead of awkwardly smushing petful and petless versions of a single skill line for no good reason, we just decided to let you have something you wanted instead" (for my non-pet Sorcs anyways)

Morvan · April 15

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

This aged well, Herald + Assassin + Grave Lord is hitting like a truck now.

If no changes are made every dps will go necroarcanist next patch lol

Wereswan · April 15

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm shocked at your response, guys, genuinely.

"If you don't like pets, just swap the skill tree" is a godsend, lol.

"I don't want to run pets"
"Then don't"
"I HATE THIS, WHY TAKE PET SKILL LINE FROM ME!"
^ what I read

I saw that change as "instead of awkwardly smushing petful and petless versions of a single skill line for no good reason, we just decided to let you have something you wanted instead" (for my non-pet Sorcs anyways)

Take a look at Bound Aegis and it's morphs, Conjured Ward and its morphs, and the passives. It's more than just the "summon Flaps and Snarls" skill line. In particular, note the boost to max. Magicka and Stamina from Expert Summoner for not having a pet active (which is the main change being referred to here.)

Oh, yes, and that's the line that Summon Storm Atronach comes from. Minor thing to give up, right?

Edit to add: just saw the thread in PTS and... well, wow, again. RIP Bound Aegis and Conjured Ward.

Thysbe · April 15

Wereswan wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Non-Pet Sorc is already getting screwed because of this lol. Years of changes made to improve the non-Pet Sorc playstyle(which used to be the strongest of the 2 in PvE DPS at least) just for it to end up with ''if you don't like pets just swap the skill tree''.

...wow.

I was expecting "if you don't like the nerfs, you can just swap out the skill line" to be the attitude from the players that support this, but seeing it from an actual ZOS employee is distressing.

it´s starting - but ofc everyone who is not ecstatic about subclassing is a fearmonger. There were plenty of reasons to use this skilllie without pets.

Greater Storm Atonach...

Mayrael · April 15

Can't wait to see how everyone will slot the cloak on the very first try and then unslot it immediately

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 15

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm shocked at your response, guys, genuinely.

"If you don't like pets, just swap the skill tree" is a godsend, lol.

"I don't want to run pets"
"Then don't"
"I HATE THIS, WHY TAKE PET SKILL LINE FROM ME!"
^ what I read

I saw that change as "instead of awkwardly smushing petful and petless versions of a single skill line for no good reason, we just decided to let you have something you wanted instead" (for my non-pet Sorcs anyways)

Take a look at Bound Aegis and it's morphs, Conjured Ward and its morphs, and the passives. It's more than just the "summon Flaps and Snarls" skill line. In particular, note the boost to max. Magicka and Stamina from Expert Summoner for not having a pet active (which is the main change being referred to here.)

Oh, yes, and that's the line that Summon Storm Atronach comes from. Minor thing to give up, right?

Edit to add: just saw the thread in PTS and... well, wow, again. RIP Bound Aegis and Conjured Ward.

Yes.... and?

Are there no other skill lines with damage shields that also have magicka boosts? It is a nerf to pure sorcerer, yes, obviously... But playing pure sorcerer is like playing with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. Technically possible, something to be proud of if you can make it work, and something I have tried myself (all the way up into easier vet content, while backbarring a restostaff as tank). It's fine, but it isn't optimal. So what?

And summoning Storm Atronach is a pet - golly, if you wanted pets, keep the pet skill line, and if you didn't, don't!

Wereswan · April 15

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm shocked at your response, guys, genuinely.

"If you don't like pets, just swap the skill tree" is a godsend, lol.

"I don't want to run pets"
"Then don't"
"I HATE THIS, WHY TAKE PET SKILL LINE FROM ME!"
^ what I read

I saw that change as "instead of awkwardly smushing petful and petless versions of a single skill line for no good reason, we just decided to let you have something you wanted instead" (for my non-pet Sorcs anyways)

Take a look at Bound Aegis and it's morphs, Conjured Ward and its morphs, and the passives. It's more than just the "summon Flaps and Snarls" skill line. In particular, note the boost to max. Magicka and Stamina from Expert Summoner for not having a pet active (which is the main change being referred to here.)

Oh, yes, and that's the line that Summon Storm Atronach comes from. Minor thing to give up, right?

Edit to add: just saw the thread in PTS and... well, wow, again. RIP Bound Aegis and Conjured Ward.

Yes.... and?

Are there no other skill lines with damage shields that also have magicka boosts? It is a nerf to pure sorcerer, yes, obviously... But playing pure sorcerer is like playing with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. Technically possible, something to be proud of if you can make it work, and something I have tried myself (all the way up into easier vet content, while backbarring a restostaff as tank). It's fine, but it isn't optimal. So what?

And summoning Storm Atronach is a pet - golly, if you wanted pets, keep the pet skill line, and if you didn't, don't!

You're just making the original point of this thread for us. Don't like what they're doing with one of your three class lines? You're now expected to subclass into something else.

But hey, apparently you've got lots of ideas as to what non-pet Sorcs should do instead. Perhaps you should pop into this PTS thread and share them.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 15

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm shocked at your response, guys, genuinely.

"If you don't like pets, just swap the skill tree" is a godsend, lol.

"I don't want to run pets"
"Then don't"
"I HATE THIS, WHY TAKE PET SKILL LINE FROM ME!"
^ what I read

I saw that change as "instead of awkwardly smushing petful and petless versions of a single skill line for no good reason, we just decided to let you have something you wanted instead" (for my non-pet Sorcs anyways)

Take a look at Bound Aegis and it's morphs, Conjured Ward and its morphs, and the passives. It's more than just the "summon Flaps and Snarls" skill line. In particular, note the boost to max. Magicka and Stamina from Expert Summoner for not having a pet active (which is the main change being referred to here.)

Oh, yes, and that's the line that Summon Storm Atronach comes from. Minor thing to give up, right?

Edit to add: just saw the thread in PTS and... well, wow, again. RIP Bound Aegis and Conjured Ward.

Yes.... and?

Are there no other skill lines with damage shields that also have magicka boosts? It is a nerf to pure sorcerer, yes, obviously... But playing pure sorcerer is like playing with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. Technically possible, something to be proud of if you can make it work, and something I have tried myself (all the way up into easier vet content, while backbarring a restostaff as tank). It's fine, but it isn't optimal. So what?

And summoning Storm Atronach is a pet - golly, if you wanted pets, keep the pet skill line, and if you didn't, don't!

You're just making the original point of this thread for us. Don't like what they're doing with one of your three class lines? You're now expected to subclass into something else.

But hey, apparently you've got lots of ideas as to what non-pet Sorcs should do instead. Perhaps you should pop into this PTS thread and share them.

I have thoughts on what I would do with my own sorc, but those thoughts don't apply to everyone, since they have their own playstyle.

And yes, I am making your point for you - I don't think I ever said homogenization wouldn't be the end result. I just think it is already, and so for those of us who *are* looking to be unique in what we do, this is awesome.

For everyone else who cookie-cutter meta-builds to victory? This is the same as always (Google a build, put it on, and then spend your in-game time grinding improved parts like the Perfected sets and learning rotations. It's honestly great work, just not my jam).

For the meta-redefiners who truly grasp things, this is probably also awesome, but maybe not. *Shrug* they are a rare breed whom I deeply respect.

sans-culottes · April 15

Morvan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

This aged well, Herald + Assassin + Grave Lord is hitting like a truck now.

If no changes are made every dps will go necroarcanist next patch lol

Yeah, funny how that happens. Why bother with classes at all? “Masteries” might as well be passives players can equip.

Stamicka · April 15

Just remember, in the past the developers acknowledged that some combinations are better than others:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others

By reading the patch notes and testing ourselves, we can see that certain combinations will be way better than others. For people looking to optimize or compete, there is no choice to be made. You have to choose the viable combinations and as of now that's a very very limited pool.

Holycannoli · April 15

I mean we all know everyone will be running arc + necro for PvE. We are going to see green beams everywhere.

There will so little variety left after this.

The fear is fatecarver will be nerfed even further because it’s so common and OP after subclassing that those of us that want to run just pure arcanists will be screwed.

And I think PvP, specifically Cyrodiil, will become standardized sort of like Vengeance. That’s why I’m not too worried about PvP balance issues from subclassing. IC could be a major issue though. Everyone will be cloaking and ganking. Everyone. I repeat: Everyone. The devs don’t know what they’re about to unleash lol.

Pevey · April 15

Holycannoli wrote: »

I mean we all know everyone will be running arc + necro for PvE. We are going to see green beams everywhere.

There will so little variety left after this.

The fear is fatecarver will be nerfed even further because it’s so common and OP after subclassing that those of us that want to run just pure arcanists will be screwed.

And I think PvP, specifically Cyrodiil, will become standardized sort of like Vengeance. That’s why I’m not too worried about PvP balance issues from subclassing. IC could be a major issue though. Everyone will be cloaking and ganking. Everyone. I repeat: Everyone. The devs don’t know what they’re about to unleash lol.

This is my fear, too. Even more homogeneity.

And I also fear it will lead to Arcanist nerfs, which I would hate to see. The Arcanist class is one of the combat team's extremely RARE wins over the last many years. It has a unique playstyle that is fun for many people (not everyone) and also actually executed on the stated goal of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor, which U35 failed at so, so badly (actually accomplishing the opposite, whilst still making every class less fun to play). Yes, you see a lot of vet trials with a roster full of arc dps, but not at the tippy top. In fact, other classes are stronger dps right now. They parse higher. But arc is fun and easy to play. U35 goal accomplished. And the long beam gives my finger tendons a short rest during the beam-time, which is even more accessible than heavy attack, because with HA you have to hold down the mouse button. Not for me. My finger aches after a trial with HA. (I tried it once with a meme Oakensorc trial group (2 tanks and 10 oakensorcs with matriarch and echoing vigor doing HMs, and they cleared most of them. I have an easier time on other classes. Turns out HA is not for me.)

Anyway, I hope instead of reflexively nerfing arc harder (it's already gotten a few since release), they will analyze what has made arc so successful and keep that in mind when making changes to other classes. They should not play like arc. They should have their own unique playstyle. But there are some good lessons to be learned from arc's success. Because seriously, major kudos on the design and execution of the arc class. Somebody at ZOS ate their Wheaties those months.

I'm torn on subclassing. As much as I fear it because of all the missteps this combat team has made over the years (I mean, can we PLEASE get back reasonable damage on ground AOE DOTS to make them actually worth using in anything other than a vet boss fight or an azure fest?), I'm also glad to see ZOS taking a big swing. It's been years. I'm not sure this is the pitch to take a big swing at. The combat team is the weakest at ZOS by far, and it's not even close. But still, better to see them taking a big swing that just standing there and standing there like they have been for years.

Now the whole content pass thing and the gutting of ESO+ over the last couple of years (no more DLC, no more need to have it for dungeons) is a different story. I'll be sitting that out and seeing what iteration comes next, because I don't think this version will be as successful as they hope.

Wereswan · April 15

Holycannoli wrote: »

I mean we all know everyone will be running arc + necro for PvE. We are going to see green beams everywhere.

There will so little variety left after this.

The fear is fatecarver will be nerfed even further because it’s so common and OP after subclassing that those of us that want to run just pure arcanists will be screwed.

And I think PvP, specifically Cyrodiil, will become standardized sort of like Vengeance. That’s why I’m not too worried about PvP balance issues from subclassing. IC could be a major issue though. Everyone will be cloaking and ganking. Everyone. I repeat: Everyone. The devs don’t know what they’re about to unleash lol.

There's the passives, too: Splintered Secrets (991 pen per Herald of the Tome ability slotted,) Fated Fortune (+12% Crit damage/healing for 7 seconds after consuming crux,) Harnessed Quintessence (+5% weapon/spell damage for 10 seconds after restoring magicka/stamina,) and Psychic Lesion (+15% damage and +55% chance to inflict status effects. That's a pretty potent combination, and it all drops neatly in on one skill line. In fact, the more I look at that skill line, the more I think it's exactly what the people in the "what's the strongest base class" thread are after: a single skill line you'll likely never swap out that will make your character a killing machine right out of the tutorial, that you can in turn [ab]use as the base for all your other combos.

On the other hand, crux is probably the answer to this: subclassed skills will benefit from Fated Fortune, but they don't have any passives of their own to boost any further off crux like Curative Runeforms and Soldier of Apocrypha can. A pure Arcanist still ought to hold up.

Too bad the other six classes don't have something similar.

Elowen_Starveil · April 15

Stamicka wrote: »

Just remember, in the past the developers acknowledged that some combinations are better than others:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others

By reading the patch notes and testing ourselves, we can see that certain combinations will be way better than others. For people looking to optimize or compete, there is no choice to be made. You have to choose the viable combinations and as of now that's a very very limited pool.

I'm not getting it. As expected, early reports from the PTS is that there will be major power creep with subclasses. Doesn't that mean that it will be easier to make either 1) personal taste changes from the meta builds, or 2) not be as "good" at the game as others, and still have some "room" in your DPS numbers to participate in harder content?

There are so many comments about how this is all going to be nerfed, or is already being a nerf to straight-classing, but they said on the video that they were happy with where it's at. Everyone can argue about that all they like, but snipping of 3% of *this* and adding 4% of *that*, here and there, does not qualify as nerfing to me. They'll continue to make revisions to all gear like they've done all the time.

I've seen people on other forums suggest they'll have to go back and "rebalance" old content unless they nerf subclassing. I haven't been around forever, but I don't know that they've ever gone back and made old content harder for the power creep already in the game. Maybe they made the new trial's difficulty such that it accommodates the new capabilities, but I don't think they'll be revising old content.

The "meta story" being spun with this game's development is one of (continuing to) de-emphasize weaving. From U35 to oakensoul and arcanist to subclassing, vet content is being opened up to more and more people who can't hit top-tier numbers with the weaving minigame. I'm here for that. With an oakensorc and a meta arcanist build, I've been able to clear all vet dungeons and trials, and even bounce around in the top 3 DPS slots with a top-tier guild. It's like I finally got access to the whole game. I want that for more people, because I want more people playing.

If sweaty tryhards who live and die by 135K fully-weaved parses at 200 APM with < 5ms timing over the course of 2 minutes need to go find a new game to gatekeep and stop belittling me for not being able to hit their numbers in my sleep with no gear, I won't miss them.