Subclasses Will Lead to a Homogenous Game as Evidenced by Hybridization

Stamicka · April 10

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1

Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

sans-culottes · April 10

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Erickson9610 · April 10

In my opinion, hybridization is a good thing. Without it, certain builds struggle to be on equal footing as other builds. With it, everyone can adapt — not to mention the advantage of having more tools available for making creative builds.

LunaFlora · April 10

Subclassing gives us more build variety so i love it

sans-culottes · April 10

LunaFlora wrote: »

Subclassing gives us more build variety so i love it

If many of those choices are ultimately superficial or unviable, then is it properly speaking “variety”?

Bo0137 · April 10

LETS GOOOO!!!

AlterBlika · April 10

Subclasses are super nice if they aren't going to allow us to change classes or make everything account-wide. It's also good for theory crafting.

luc76985 · April 10

I was thinking it sounds fun

sarahthes · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

*In pvp

Thysbe · April 10

so instead of balancing the classes they make us balance them by using all the same subclasses... clever

I fully agree, this will wipe the last class differences from the endgame board (besides a few surviving support skills)

for roleplay: no-one-cares-about-a-few-DPS builds it´s great ofc

Stx · April 10

This is the classic MMO vs Elder Scrolls debate.

Changes like scribing, hybridization, and subclassing are excellent for players who want a traditional elder scrolls experience and who just want to play casual content and make fun builds and themed characters.

For MMO players mainly interested in endgame, changes like this reduce build variety because performance is what matters most.

In my opinion, subclassing is going to make the game more fun and honestly this game should never have had classes in the first place. As you yourself mentioned, there already isn’t much build diversity at the top of the ladders, so might as well let everyone else have fun.

JaxontheUnfortunate · April 10

I suspect a handful of skill line combinations will become "meta" the rest will never be used.

Renato90085 · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

If class set still only this class can run
Necro have change be pve meta,Corpseburster and 2 execute…(100% crit beam) +better ult(dk?

sans-culottes · April 10

Thysbe wrote: »

so instead of balancing the classes they make us balance them by using all the same subclasses... clever

I fully agree, this will wipe the last class differences from the endgame board (besides a few surviving support skills)

I agree, @Thysbe. Rather than investing resources in improving and balancing the performance of existing classes with underperforming skill lines, this will instead lead to the further marginalization of those mediocre skill lines.

LukosCreyden · April 10

Why complain about more choice? The people that want to play the meta will continue to play the meta like they always have done, which is a finenway to play. The people that do NOT play the meta (you do not need to play the meta btw handy hint for you) will get a load more build variety.

ImmortalCX · April 10

One ring to rule them all.

CoronHR · April 10

i'm not crazy about it. i would prefer a new class. but now, a new class would just be silly, so bye bye new class forever maybe

CoronHR · April 10

and also, i mostly dislike hybridisation, for the exact reasons OP said

DenverRalphy · April 10

Erickson9610 wrote: »

In my opinion, hybridization is a good thing. Without it, certain builds struggle to be on equal footing as other builds. With it, everyone can adapt — not to mention the advantage of having more tools available for making creative builds.

Except now it's quite possible that each of the three roles will have a meta built around a BIS base class, and the same 1or 2 subclasses. Resulting in even less build diversity than what still remains today.

Stamicka · April 10

LunaFlora wrote: »

Subclassing gives us more build variety so i love it

The choice is an illusion, it's like asking someone to choose between a skill like "fireball" and "even better fireball".

The way ZOS designed and changed classes is that each has a tank skill link, a healing skill line, and a damage skill line. With subclasses you must retain only 1 of your classes' original skill lines.

So if I have a Nightblade, I can keep the Assassination skill line because it gives me surprise attack, merciless resolve, and incap. Not to mention it has amazing passives. This is the clear winner for my damage skill line in PvP.

Now I just choose the class with the best healing skill line and the one with the best tank skill line, or maybe just both Restoring Light and Green Balance. Restoring Light allows me to get my Major Resolve, I'll get Major and Minor mending, I can choose to have a purge. I'll then use Healing Soul to get Major Vitality.

See the problem? major balance issues and clear best choices. This is a recipe for homogeny.

Alaztor91 · April 10

I expect to see a bit more green in the near future.

SilverIce58 · April 10

Stamicka wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Subclassing gives us more build variety so i love it

The choice is an illusion, it's like asking someone to choose between a skill like "fireball" and "even better fireball".

The way ZOS designed and changed classes is that each has a tank skill link, a healing skill line, and a damage skill line. With subclasses you must retain only 1 of your classes' original skill lines.

So if I have a Nightblade, I can keep the Assassination skill line because it gives me surprise attack, merciless resolve, and incap. Not to mention it has amazing passives. This is the clear winner for my damage skill line in PvP.

Now I just choose the class with the best healing skill line and the one with the best tank skill line, or maybe just both Restoring Light and Green Balance. Restoring Light allows me to get my Major Resolve, I'll get Major and Minor mending, I can choose to have a purge. I'll then use Healing Soul to get Major Vitality.

See the problem? major balance issues and clear best choices. This is a recipe for homogeny.

But the things is, you are looking at the game as "this skill does this with action with this flavor magic skin on it better than this skill that does the same thing with another skin" but the skin is the thing. The flavor of the skill line is the thing. You might not agree that this will bring build diversity, but people will surprise you given time. Thats why we have people now who made stamina healing work, or who made ice mages into a prominent faction. People care about the skins and the flavor more than they do about the basic damage calculations.

I understand that maybe at first everyone will run the same thing, but given time, the meta will evolve too.

randconfig · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Hard disagree. I would love sorcerer daedric summoning + necromancer grave lord.... Finally an army of pets

Renato90085 · April 10

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Hard disagree. I would love sorcerer daedric summoning + necromancer grave lord.... Finally an army of pets

Sir,you forget your bear

ArchMikem · April 10

There are plenty of people who will make new Sub Class builds because they're fun, or they mesh with their Character Lore. Not just because it's the new META for PvP.

And if ZOS makes the new Vengeance mode of Cyrodiil a permanent thing, then this issue won't even matter.

colossalvoids · April 10

Definitely not something I wanted to hear after last years loosing last crumbs of identity. Glad i care way less than years ago.

robpr · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Arc will probably do. Rapid Rot passive + Grave Lord Sacrifice for even more ridiculous Beam dps.

randconfig · April 10

robpr wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Arc will probably do. Rapid Rot passive + Grave Lord Sacrifice for even more ridiculous Beam dps.

Templar jesus beam would like to have a word with you...

jaws343 · April 10

Renato90085 wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Hard disagree. I would love sorcerer daedric summoning + necromancer grave lord.... Finally an army of pets

Sir,you forget your bear

This is probably exactly what I will be doing for my PVE solo setup. Oops all pets.

Juju_beans · April 10

Realistically there should be no more "fake" tanks or healers then.

But we know that won't happen, even with subclassing

Tommy_The_Gun · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Depends. I am sure that obvious things like every class being able to cloak & streak is just a tip of the iceberg. The issue here is that every class was design to use only it's own class skills. We don't know how class skill from class A will interact with class B casting that skill. For instance - Necro has relatively cheap negative effect removal and % skill cost reduction. In terms of nin-maxing it opens up a lot of possibilities for other classes etc. Or for example how certain skills will work on a NB with cloak toggled on. Will you be able to have cloak & Warde's Blue Betty active at the same time ? Speaking of which - will you be able to stack all of the sustain skills from 3 classes and never die ? See, those are things that may be most problematic. It is those small combos that I am most worried about tbh.

Stuff will be broken and it is basically ZOS willingly opening a pandora box. it will take them another 5+ years to balance this out without gutting evything.

Instead of re-using existing assets & sell it as a new feature at the cost of destroying the balance, it would be far better to... oh idk... maybe add new skill lines to the game ? Like new weapon skill lines ? Like Spears or 1h & spell ? I am kinda disappointed tbh. It just takes all the choice away, as there will be just 1 meta combo class for PvE and one 1 combo class for PvP.