Subclasses Will Lead to a Homogenous Game as Evidenced by Hybridization

Wereswan

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Just remember, in the past the developers acknowledged that some combinations are better than others:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Some combinations of these tools are more effective than others

By reading the patch notes and testing ourselves, we can see that certain combinations will be way better than others. For people looking to optimize or compete, there is no choice to be made. You have to choose the viable combinations and as of now that's a very very limited pool.

[snip]

I've seen people on other forums suggest they'll have to go back and "rebalance" old content unless they nerf subclassing. I haven't been around forever, but I don't know that they've ever gone back and made old content harder for the power creep already in the game. Maybe they made the new trial's difficulty such that it accommodates the new capabilities, but I don't think they'll be revising old content.

[snip]

What they did to rebalance when companions were added was to give us all a haircut to damage to make up for the potential increase from the companion. It's absolutely true that they're not going to go back and go through all those old encounters to retune them in the face of power creep, which is why so many of us are afraid the nerfs are going to rain from the heavens.

gc0018

Wereswan wrote: »

What they did to rebalance when companions were added was to give us all a haircut to damage to make up for the potential increase from the companion. It's absolutely true that they're not going to go back and go through all those old encounters to retune them in the face of power creep, which is why so many of us are afraid the nerfs are going to rain from the heavens.

They will nerf the current 1st then everyone goes to 2nd, then they nerf the 2nd, people go to the 3rd...
Nerf circles achieved.

FoJul

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Incorrect, I have already theorycrafted 2 Necro builds, and I barely play necromancer. Necro Grave lord Skill line is extremely loaded. When pairing Blastbones with another burst like shalks or merciless. That alone will be deadly.

Dot dmg passives are going to scale extremely well with DK, (and in my case my Dotblade), The execution crit chance passive is going to scale excellent with Blade and Plar. Now the other 2 necro skill lines I probably would replace, but everyone who plays that class wants to send kamikazes at everyone. Its the whole point.

I have already seen The nb/necro on the pts, and I can't wait to hop in there and test out some theories.

How will Solar barrage and Grave lords Sacrfice work in coalition with each other? Is it additive or multiplicative? Not gonna lie Necro finna be fun.

LukosCreyden

So, based off of the usual stuff on the forums, subclassing will kill ESO. That means that ESO has died about 6 or 7 times now. Impressive!

Stamicka

LukosCreyden wrote: »

So, based off of the usual stuff on the forums, subclassing will kill ESO. That means that ESO has died about 6 or 7 times now. Impressive!

There’s been about 6 or 7 mass exoduses from the game… so it kind of has.

There’s so many different communities in ESO, so the game as a whole hasn’t ever died, but certain communities have.

Tariq9898

My concern is if future released content will have bosses with a billion hp to counter subclassing.

If subclassing remains much more overpowered than pure classing, then it will be the death of pure classes. All future content will demand players to subclass. This pretty much goes against ZOS’s motto of “play how you want.”

Pure classes should be just as viable as subclassing in all roles. Not everyone wants to subclass and they shouldn’t be punished for that.

Warhawke_80

Tariq9898 wrote: »

My concern is if future released content will have bosses with a billion hp to counter subclassing.

If subclassing remains much more overpowered than pure classing, then it will be the death of pure classes. All future content will demand players to subclass. This pretty much goes against ZOS’s motto of “play how you want.”

Pure classes should be just as viable as subclassing in all roles. Not everyone wants to subclass and they shouldn’t be punished for that.

I just don't buy into the whole doom model...I think we should wait and see how things turn out before we start screeching about the death of ESO.

moderatelyfatman

Stamicka wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

So, based off of the usual stuff on the forums, subclassing will kill ESO. That means that ESO has died about 6 or 7 times now. Impressive!

There’s been about 6 or 7 mass exoduses from the game… so it kind of has.

There’s so many different communities in ESO, so the game as a whole hasn’t ever died, but certain communities have.

No truer words have been said.
ESO will never die the same way Aion will never die as long as the servers are kept running. But I'd much rather see a larger population than a small one or just a few hundred whales who keep spending enough in the cash shop to keep that one server chugging along.
Please don't let this happen here....

lolinternet

Stx wrote: »

This is the classic MMO vs Elder Scrolls debate. […] In my opinion, subclassing is going to make the game more fun and honestly this game should never have had classes in the first place. As you yourself mentioned, there already isn’t much build diversity at the top of the ladders, so might as well let everyone else have fun.

I agree. Seeing classes upon signing up at first was a bit disappointing because I was looking for the Elder Scrolls Online, not World of Warcraft with an Elder Scrolls theme.

No game that I know of has diversity at the “top of the ladders”. That is the whole point of a competitive metagame. To be fair, the “competitive metagame” in ESO is a badly organized discursive space and more of a way of talking build fashion than the real deal, except for an extremely small circle of score-pushing and record-setting players. But in the end this kind of approach to gaming will always converge on a small number of top-tier setups and strategies for performance. That's just how it works and it does so across games. Games don't have 500 different ways of being the “best”. Since ESO isn't true e-sports and it's more of a fashion talk thing, sadly, it has also affected guild cultures beyond what is appropriate. Guilds are making demands and are going to be making even more demands now that you can push 170k DPS with a subclassed setup. But those of us who want to play veteran content (trials, etc.) have a responsibility to say no to a toxic and demanding culture that keeps asking for way more than you actually need to complete the achievements all in the name of what some YouTube channel or Twitch streamer told them.

Meanwhile, ESO also has to cater to the casual metagame, prioritized by a high number of casual players and people who just like the Elder Scrolls universe. These players now have the choice between a roleplay-like, strict adherence to their class or expressing personal identity through new combinations. Subclassing is closer to what the Elder Scrolls always was – unless all you did was, say, head up to the College of Winterhold in TES5: Skyrim, level up a couple magic skills, and stick with those forever. Most of us were intuitively subclassing because there weren't any classes to begin with, and that was part of what made it great. Like with scribing, ZOS is introducing a compromised version of freedoms we used to have, but I'll take it. Looks like fun.

The “casual metagame” part of this isn't just about the roleplay-and-overland type players. It's also about comfort when playing veteran content. You can now can mix and match playstyles, because if you only look at class skills the different classes do have different feels to them. (I'm known to only play a single Templar character. I've tried a Warden once, which was different but okay once I got into it, and a Sorcerer, which was a terrible experience.) More people will be able to complete even the hardest content in the game on this premise, enjoying harder content way better than what they were previously permitted by the competitive meta-pushing homogenizers. Subclassing could open up a space for people to actually enjoy trials again as the competitive metagame crowd continues its descent into isolation and merely seeing the game as a sequence of numbers and rhythm for clicking one button on the keyboard, then one on the mouse.

Take any veteran trial, dungeon, or arena in the game. It comes with a story. It comes with bosses that have mechanics, with situation-adjusted music, a full package that's supposed to be a big cinematic event that simultaneously has players connecting with one another (called triadic learning in education theory) while solving a difficult task together, perhaps having fun socializing on voice chat meanwhile (or not, whatever they prefer). This stuff becomes a lot more accessible with subclassing because people can personalize their character to work better for how they feel like engaging in combat while evening out things about these classes that might not fully fit the role people are going to play in a group. And it does so while adding a touch of personal identity. So, I think it'll make the difficult things more accessible and enjoyable to the casual crowd, provided they make or get access to social spaces (guilds) where they don't have to deal with the almost-corporate cultures of most "serious PvE guilds".

So I'm basically optimistic on behalf of the people who matter in this game. The competitive crowd will always function by certain rules and attract certain mentalities, and they'll sort themselves out anyway. The rest of us are probably about to have a really good time.

Silaf

If by Homogenous you mean a game with less choices where everyone play the same 3 skills...

Anumaril

Stx wrote: »

This is the classic MMO vs Elder Scrolls debate.

Changes like scribing, hybridization, and subclassing are excellent for players who want a traditional elder scrolls experience and who just want to play casual content and make fun builds and themed characters.

For MMO players mainly interested in endgame, changes like this reduce build variety because performance is what matters most.

In my opinion, subclassing is going to make the game more fun and honestly this game should never have had classes in the first place. As you yourself mentioned, there already isn’t much build diversity at the top of the ladders, so might as well let everyone else have fun.

Agree on every level. Classless models are increasingly becoming the norm among MMOs now anyways, and it's a shame that ZOS didn't have the courage to do it with ESO back when the game initially released, especially since it's a defining characteristic of Elder Scrolls gameplay.