If done right this will be a real elderscrolls game finally. I personally can not wait

So, with subclassing incoming, I hope they will remove the Infinite Archive skins restrictions (which was a no-sens in the first place)

Stridig wrote: »

Theory crafting may actually be a thing again

I want to make the point that what people are praising about Subclasses now is exactly what was said when they announced hybridisation. More freedom of builds, more theory crafting, etc. It’s just not what happened.

Endgame has the problem of not being particularly diverse, yet all hybridisation did for it was cut the amount of classes down from 12 to 6 (no Arcanist at this point.) Before you had a Magicka DPS spec and a Stamina DPS spec of all classes with different play styles and skills separating them, but now you basically just use the exact same setup and gear no matter the scenario. I fail to see how Subclasses will be different without making things even less diverse then they currently are.

SalamanNZ wrote: »

If done right this will be a real elderscrolls game finally. I personally can not wait

I assume you mean free form and without classes, so you mean Skyrim.

Not sure why everyone likes to forget how hardcoded and important classes were to all the other ES games?

I remember hearing ''More freedom for builds, more Theory Crafting, etc'' when Hybridization was announced and afaik it only cut down the options for PvE DPS in half.

Years later, Hybridization still not completely finished and now subclassing is coming to the game. I still hope for more freedom for builds, theory crafting, etc, but now I expect that the reverse will happen and the ''best'' combination of 3 skill lines is just going to replace the 7 Class options currently available (if you even consider all 7 of them to be on par with each other).

Maybe there are some major skill/passive changes coming that will prevent this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

This is great and all but I have no faith in the PvP community to create and play their favourite character archetype. We all know there is going be a handful of builds a lot of people are going to metahump too, and it’s all you’re going to see.

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

tom6143346 wrote: »

Yeah roleplay that’s what the game became for…… sadly

No, roleplay is what the game was all about since the very start.

The game was heavily marketed as PVP-Centric at launch. Cyrodiil probably had more marketing material around it than any other aspect of the game. It's a bit disingenuous to say it's been "roleplay focused since the start", despite them having shifted in that direction over the years to the chagrin of many of the more "endgame" focused players. One of the first, and most successful DLCs at the time (IC) was PVP focused as well.

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Sure there's game modes of various difficulty, but that doesn't take away that ESO is an RPG at its core.
Plenty of players engage in both high level endgame content and various degrees of roleplay. One does not rule out the other!

Unfortunately, you often see things like "casual players/roleplayers do not understand the full picture" which is kinda laughable and very untrue, as it makes it sound like obsessive minmaxing at the cost of all else is the gold standard that everyone should aspire to in their journey to git gud. And yeah that's very much a hyperbole, but so are aforementioned statements. Optimizing characters can be very fun, but it is also not the be all end all of playstyles.

I'm sorry, but what you've said in the second half of this post is just flat out untrue. How can you honestly say that casual/roleplay oriented players have just as much of a grasp on how massive, sweeping combat changes like this will impact the game's balance as veteran combat focused players do? This is just objectively incorrect.

People are rightfully worried about how this will impact PVP balance because it isn't as cut and dry as "this gives more flexibility to those that want it, and those that don't can just ignore it". It directly impacts your personal experience in PVP to give everyone absurd amounts of powercreep for no reason whatsoever. In the short term it will probably be fun - but in the long term, this is likely going to significantly deteriorate the overall PVP experience for veterans and new players alike. You will either conform to using the meta build choices, or you will drastically fall behind in power level compared to people that do - just like hybridization. This causes homogenization, which the majority of the endgame veteran playerbase seems to dislike - both in PVP and PVE.

Never knew this was a thing, can someone explain when its coming to ESO? I would want to try a PVE build of mixing a vampire nightblade with a sorcerer base, and then add necromancer with oakensoul.

The idea if you can mix and match, would be to have my minions wipe everything out, use sprint for invisibility, and be able to raise corpses for crowd control. Bone armor for stacking health, a execute from nightblade. Sounds kind of busted beyond belief

React wrote: »

The game was heavily marketed as PVP-Centric at launch. Cyrodiil probably had more marketing material around it than any other aspect of the game. It's a bit disingenuous to say it's been "roleplay focused since the start", despite them having shifted in that direction over the years to the chagrin of many of the more "endgame" focused players. One of the first, and most successful DLCs at the time (IC) was PVP focused as well.

Yes it was marketed as an Elder Scrolls game with a spectacular PVP component, I think it was compared to Age of Camelot in that regard.

But that does not take away that it was still gonna be an Elder Scrolls RPG, something which was featured just as heavily in their advertisements. And well, all TES games in existence have been RPG's so I think it wasn't too much of a surprise.

You mentioned the Imperial City PVP DLC, but the PVE DLC Orsinium was released right after that. Both of them had one thing in common, well written storylines, lots of dialogue, books to read and an immersive world and setting. Sounds like an RPG to me!

I totally agree that ESO stood out from other similar games by focusing more on PVP over PVE as "traditional" endgame. But it was and is still an RPG at heart, since the very start.

If any of that makes what I say disingenuous, I could say the same goes for you, by writing it as you did. Though I don't think either of us is disingenuous in any case, we just have different views on it.

React wrote: »

I'm sorry, but what you've said in the second half of this post is just flat out untrue. How can you honestly say that casual/roleplay oriented players have just as much of a grasp on how massive, sweeping combat changes like this will impact the game's balance as veteran combat focused players do? This is just objectively incorrect.

People are rightfully worried about how this will impact PVP balance because it isn't as cut and dry as "this gives more flexibility to those that want it, and those that don't can just ignore it". It directly impacts your personal experience in PVP to give everyone absurd amounts of powercreep for no reason whatsoever. In the short term it will probably be fun - but in the long term, this is likely going to significantly deteriorate the overall PVP experience for veterans and new players alike. You will either conform to using the meta build choices, or you will drastically fall behind in power level compared to people that do - just like hybridization. This causes homogenization, which the majority of the endgame veteran playerbase seems to dislike - both in PVP and PVE.

Only.. that is not what I am saying at all!

What I am saying, is that you often see the notion around here that roleplayers/casual players are clueless and can't also be endgame players (which is also very objectively incorrect). Or how roleplayers have trouble with even the easymode overland content, so their perspective is invalid. Which is of course ridiculous.

So yes, I am pretty sure that they can have as much of a grasp on game balance, theorycrafting, impact of changes, build maths etc. I cannot speak for everyone but the majority of roleplayers I know also do endgame content, many in RP builds that are very much not meta (but still well put together and thought out). Who says some of those roleplayers aren't veteran combat players as well? Like I said, which was my main point, the one does not rule out the other.

I think chance was very much needed, even though with every change to this game you hear people say that the sky is falling (since the very start of ESO). But well, players will always find out OP combinations, because that's just what people do. I just assume that they will balance it if there are truly egregrious skill interactions, as I doubt the future of their own game is something they never thought about when implementing new things.

It seems to me that class identity is going out the window.

Trying to not be to pessimistic or cynical. I mean new content, new story, yay!

But.....I'm torn. From one aspect this could be great because of the different combinations we will be able to mix up.

On the other hand, things that seem like "special" to a certain class. Well it won't be special to a certain class anymore. So there are tons of pros and cons here.

I share others concerns, not certain how well this will work in the long run. Guess time will tell...

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

This opens up so many possibilities! I may actually start playing again!

Hopefully there will be enough people like you to replace those who leave.

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

I think chance was very much needed, even though with every change to this game you hear people say that the sky is falling (since the very start of ESO). But well, players will always find out OP combinations, because that's just what people do. I just assume that they will balance it if there are truly egregrious skill interactions, as I doubt the future of their own game is something they never thought about when implementing new things.

We haven't seen a good balance patch in a few years at this point, and it's definitely not because the game is balanced. Hybridization is still unfinished as well, so to expect that this idea will be balanced and fully finished doesn't exactly fit ZOS' track record.

People don't act like the sky is falling when good changes are made. The fact that you see people claiming that the sky is falling so much speaks to the types of changes that are made time after time. By the way, this April, Steam Charts is showing about an 11k ESO player average compared to 16k in April 2024 and 18k in April 2023. So this stuff has taken a toll on the overall population. The PvP and endgame PvE crowd has seen much more dramatic drops, both of those scenes are essentially dead.

Stamicka wrote: »

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1


Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

They did learn their lesson, just not the lesson anyone who cares about challenging content wanted them to learn.

This smells U35 2.0

You gonna see some build diversity for the first 2-3 months when people experiment and test things, but subclasses will 100% lead to the opposite of "build diversity". When nothing/no one is unique and have access to everything, it all becomes a pure stat/math game at the end of the day. While you don't necessarily have to chase the min/max meta aspect of things, we all know that the expectations of doing so "drizzle down" in the community. Further along the lines I can see people complain about how they're not invited to raids because their skilline combination isn't what is asked from their PvE groip etc...

In PvP it will also show when group comps eventually will all run the same thing because there WILL BE a comp that is more optimal than other (like way more optimal to the point where everything else is so subpar that it ain't worth using). Currently you actually have some interesting build diversity from a 2-3 man PoV in PvP. Subclasses will remove that completely.

We saw what scribing did to the game by giving us the most absurd power creep the game has ever seen. I predict subclasses will be similar if not have more impact in that regard.

there will be some Meta power set ups in PVE and PVP -> then they will nuke everything and ZOS will nerf skills -> following in already non-performing roleplay builds to be abysmal

so the gap they were trying to close between informed, trained meta players and those who are more into the aesthetics of a class will widen again