Subclasses Will Lead to a Homogenous Game as Evidenced by Hybridization

danko355 · April 10

I feel like subclassing gives you a ton of different fun builds, especially talking PvP. This is like you suddenly get a character on steroids, where you can really invest into some interesting features. You can make a full pet build, a ganker with tons of damage, slippery assassin who can streak and cloak away at any moment, super tanky dk-warden mix with tons of health, heals, mitigations. This will also allow the devs to better optimize the existing skills, because if you see every class use specific skill for every build, that’s a great indicator the skill might be overtuned.

Thysbe · April 10

I wont even bother one second with creating a build at that level of complexity (Scribing was already too annoying wrecking tons of ink for skills not working as intended)

scribing + a trillion ESO sets + Mundus + subclasses now

that level of complexity is pushing everyone who is not fully into theory crafting towards premade Youtube builds + a handfull of super low effort pet builds already announced in forum.

Can already see the "no pets" labels in grop finder....

licenturion · April 10

I like it. I believe they also said that skill line progress for those things will become account wide, which is pretty great. If you already have lvl50 skill lines for those classes they will instantly unlocked day 1.

The_Meathead · April 10

It could play out differently and I hope it does, but yeah - I agree with the OP.

Removing the STA/MAG barrier really just resulted in a single set of good choices, rather than the split we had previously, and was a homogenization more than anything.

I'm having a hard time seeing how this won't be more of the same, but I admit it will be fun to tinker with. Like someone else said, I also hope it comes with the much-requested ability to change our base Class via token (I won't kid myself it would be free), if things are just being opened up for the sake of being opened up. No good argument left for not allowing Class Change, after this.

Stx · April 10

Lots of things seem broken on paper until you realize that every class will be able to do something different that is also broken and when everyone is overpowered then balance returns but the game is just chaotic and fun!

Overall dps will skyrocket though. Just being able to stack three dps skill lines will cause that. Sustain will go up across the board, tanks will get tankier, everyone can provide missing buffs to the group… it’s going to be great. But absolutely ZOS needs to balance outlier abilities.

Lags · April 10

its just a terrible idea. class identity was dead with the hybrid changes, so it is what it is at this point. zos does not back track bad ideas. I think the real issue is they already cant balance their game, especially in pvp. This could be cool for variety, but in the end a few select builds will dominate both pve and pvp.

DenverRalphy · April 10

Arcanist won't be the goto DPS meta now. It'll be more specifically Herald Of The Tome, and every DPS will be required to have Fatecarver.

tomofhyrule · April 10

I’ve been nervous about this since I heard about it. Good idea in theory and would make for fun overland screw-around builds, but this could be a balancing disaster. I’m honestly not a fan of so much homogenization.

I’ll just repost from the official thread about the reveal:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m really scared about subclassing.

It’s great… in theory. I already know a few of my characters will get some new things to play with. But having said that, this really feels like another well-intentioned-but-disastrous thing that will only further exacerbate the split between the top-level endgamers and the casuals, and I fear that homogenizing everything even more will only lead to demands that everyone run one or two cookie-cutter builds. We already have so many “nobody’s accepting me into groups because I don’t run the meta!” threads, and this will make that so much worse.

Honestly, I fear we’re on the cusp of another U35-level endgame exodus, especially if the extra power from everyone running Arcanist beams and Templar executes ends up trivializing trifecta runs or if everyone can be immortal in PvP because of infinite-ultimate perma-Magma and high-health Polar Wind heals for allies.

There are a few lines that will synergize well and some that, even from a cursory glance, will be completely OP. What are the strategies there? Would the team nerf a skill because of how it synergizes with a different class line? What about the players who run a pure class? We can’t just say “you can do all content with anything!” and pretend that every raid lead will have to accept everyone.

I was really hoping that subclassing would have either 1) been for overland and normal content only and vet instances and PvP would require pure classes, or 2) allowed more versatility from different buffs/skills, but at the expense of raw power (e.g. reduced tooltips). That latter point was one of the issues with hybridization - giving players more options for the build by allowing WD/SD to count only as the higher then also made it so there would be one objectively better setup for the class… essentially taking away choice. I fear that pure classes will be totally and completely outclassed by mixed classes, essentially forcing people to multiclass to stay competitive (and thereby taking away player choice, unless they choose to be purposefully underpowered).

I’m also really disappointed because I want a new class more than anything else (Dwemer Artificer please!), and subclassing makes it seem like we’ll never get another class ever. Before, it would have been balancing one class against 7 existing, now it will require balancing three individual lines against all 21 others. I know the release of Arcanist made it so I was so excited to get back in and make a new character, but any new character now would just be… the same as something I already have until they have the skill points to get a different line?

The subclassing balance has been one of my biggest concerns since I heard about it. Again, I don’t hate the concept and think it could be fun to play around with for for-fun overland and RP builds, but it will be a monster to balance in a competitive arena and could easily lead to major toxicity, exclusion, and frustration.

fizzylu · April 10

Is it going to be broken? Yes. Do I care? No, because this game has already become something I cannot take seriously AND this might be the one thing other than 4v4v4 BGs being brought back that will actually make me desire to play the game again.... simply for the nifty new class concepts I can come up with for funsies. Yes.

Pixiepumpkin · April 10

I am torn on this.

One one hand I LOVED how Vengeance actually had classes in it. You knew what you were up against and could easily learn the skill line to get an idea on how to counter play the other player.

On the other hand, I have wanted to make a vet worthy frost mage for years now, and could never do it. Maybe sub classes will allow for this (even then, I doubt it).

Overall though. I felt like Necro and Arcanist were the way to go regarding classes. Making a classes kit more useful and less about weapons or skill lines (I have always felt weapons should have been their own classes, same as vamp and werewolf). Subclasses goes in the opposite directon of Necro/Arcanist and this does not please me.

I really enjoyed the lady that was talking about Sub-Classes (sorry, I forget her name), she was so enthusiastic and gung *** and I really want to believe that they will make the game better, but I am not convinced.

tom6143346 · April 10

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Depends. I am sure that obvious things like every class being able to cloak & streak is just a tip of the iceberg. The issue here is that every class was design to use only it's own class skills. We don't know how class skill from class A will interact with class B casting that skill. For instance - Necro has relatively cheap negative effect removal and % skill cost reduction. In terms of nin-maxing it opens up a lot of possibilities for other classes etc. Or for example how certain skills will work on a NB with cloak toggled on. Will you be able to have cloak & Warde's Blue Betty active at the same time ? Speaking of which - will you be able to stack all of the sustain skills from 3 classes and never die ? See, those are things that may be most problematic. It is those small combos that I am most worried about tbh.

Stuff will be broken and it is basically ZOS willingly opening a pandora box. it will take them another 5+ years to balance this out without gutting evything.

Instead of re-using existing assets & sell it as a new feature at the cost of destroying the balance, it would be far better to... oh idk... maybe add new skill lines to the game ? Like new weapon skill lines ? Like Spears or 1h & spell ? I am kinda disappointed tbh. It just takes all the choice away, as there will be just 1 meta combo class for PvE and one 1 combo class for PvP.

Your so absolutely correct about that . There are small bugs in this game that not get fixed for years , hybridization still not complete and now they just open the next thing up. I don’t know , knowing the history of ZOS , I am not really looking forward to the upcoming mess. New weapon skillline + new weapons would be much easier to implement I guess.

NoSoup · April 10

Lol this is going to be so broken.....

Desiato · April 10

No thank you. Good luck with your game.

[to be clear, I agree with the OP]

React · April 10

You're completly right here. Unfortunately the casual players absolutley love changes like this, so they're not really going to consider the broader impact of this system as it won't really affect how they play.

The homegeonization will be bad. At first I'm sure it'll be fun when people are experimenting with new things, but give it a month or two and the meta will settle on just a couple viable combinations that everybody will play.

Even worse in my opinion will be the balance impact, though. The current balance of the game on live is bad already because of the lack of limitations hybridization and scribing have wrought.. The reason vengeance, while nowhere near perfect, was so positively received is because it imposed those limitations on people again.

This system not only removes the few restrictions we had left, but gives everyone access to even more direct power creep regardless of class. It's just an impossible to balance mess, and it's clear from how they introduced it during the livestream that they have no intentions whatsoever of trying to balance it.

At this point, I hope that their intention is to impose an expanded vengeance style ruleset on cyrodiil - because at least then there will be an avenue to experience pvp as it should be, within the impending disaster that will be subclassing. Sadly, they don't seem to have any real time frame in mind for that either.

fizzylu · April 10

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol this is going to be so broken.....

Yessss, let the chaos ensue.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 10

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Honestly the Living Death tree is one of the better healing trees in the game with great passives, a fantastic self purge, Intensive Mender, and an AoE Burst Heal/HoT/Purge all rolled into one

wolfie1.0. · April 10

danko355 wrote: »

I feel like subclassing gives you a ton of different fun builds, especially talking PvP. This is like you suddenly get a character on steroids, where you can really invest into some interesting features. You can make a full pet build, a ganker with tons of damage, slippery assassin who can streak and cloak away at any moment, super tanky dk-warden mix with tons of health, heals, mitigations. This will also allow the devs to better optimize the existing skills, because if you see every class use specific skill for every build, that’s a great indicator the skill might be overtuned.

Don't say that there will be fun or OP builds until we see what the balancing is like.

Stridig · April 10

Theory crafting may actually be a thing again

fizzylu · April 10

Stridig wrote: »

Theory crafting may actually be a thing again

I honestly feel my love of coming up with builds reigniting as people type to reply to this thread. I'm stoked, I'm sorry everyone who dreads this change. It'll be a hot mess, but it will be our hot mess.

Foxtrot39 · April 10

Can't wait to loose the last sliver of hope that consuming darkness could be buffed into something usable beside a passive booster slot as I will perhaps be able to just replace it with any other superior options any other class got

Stridig · April 10

fizzylu wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Theory crafting may actually be a thing again

I honestly feel my love of coming up with builds reigniting as people type to reply to this thread. I'm stoked, I'm sorry everyone who dreads this change. It'll be a hot mess, but it will be our hot mess.

It may be a little messy at first. But I'm also one of those people who loves the chaos the hammer brings in Cyrodiil. I think it will be fun.

Pa1in · April 10

I for one i am very happy to see this function came to be, especially free for basegame. There always will be meta, and always will be metachasers endlessly tweaking and experimenting to find that one build that does 0,5% damage more. There will always be balance moved towards something, even just a little bit. Sublclassing being here ir now will not exactly change that. It's also up to us as a community to learn that you don't always have to use the most optimal and effective build for whatever you intend to do. Also subclassing will give something to tweak old characters, or will let people who never could get behind having alts, a way to try out some new abilites. Not to mention roleplay and builds fitting whatever story you have in mind for a given character

Parasaurolophus · April 10

Pa1in wrote: »

I for one i am very happy to see this function came to be, especially free for basegame. There always will be meta, and always will be metachasers endlessly tweaking and experimenting to find that one build that does 0,5% damage more. There will always be balance moved towards something, even just a little bit. Sublclassing being here ir now will not exactly change that. It's also up to us as a community to learn that you don't always have to use the most optimal and effective build for whatever you intend to do. Also subclassing will give something to tweak old characters, or will let people who never could get behind having alts, a way to try out some new abilites. Not to mention roleplay and builds fitting whatever story you have in mind for a given character

I don't know how math works magically in this game, but all these "0.5%" always end up being noticeably transformed into convenience and results. Have you ever spent several hours on hard modes of some bosses? I have. And the last one was in Lep-Seclusa. I played in a pair with a sorceress DPS, and we passed the last boss only after he relogged to an arcanist. So let's not be so mocking about 0.5% percent, okay?

duagloth · April 10

Good

tom6143346 · April 10

Pa1in wrote: »

I for one i am very happy to see this function came to be, especially free for basegame. There always will be meta, and always will be metachasers endlessly tweaking and experimenting to find that one build that does 0,5% damage more. There will always be balance moved towards something, even just a little bit. Sublclassing being here ir now will not exactly change that. It's also up to us as a community to learn that you don't always have to use the most optimal and effective build for whatever you intend to do. Also subclassing will give something to tweak old characters, or will let people who never could get behind having alts, a way to try out some new abilites. Not to mention roleplay and builds fitting whatever story you have in mind for a given character

Yeah roleplay that’s what the game became for…… sadly

Stamicka · April 10

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Why complain about more choice? The people that want to play the meta will continue to play the meta like they always have done, which is a finenway to play. The people that do NOT play the meta (you do not need to play the meta btw handy hint for you) will get a load more build variety.

A lot of comments are implying that I'm a meta chaser, but I've honestly never been that and I still don't like subclasses as an idea. I've been in the same build for maybe 3 or more years now. I don't have any new mythics cause I don't feel like chasing leads, and I only ever really wear crafted sets in PvP. Anyone who has known me knows that there's a lot of stuff I never run because I don't personally like running anything I consider to be cheese in PvP (I like feeling rewarded when I win). My builds in PvP are not BiS and I am outbuilt a lot of the time.

I'm very aware that I'm never "forced" to play any certain way, however, there's a point where playing what I want is so unviable that it isn't fun. When hybridization first came out, I wanted to keep using a pure mag light armor build without vigor. The problem is that everyone else was in medium armor and had vigor slotted. My built was so much worse in comparison to them that PvP just wasn't fun until I made more of a hybrid build and dropped the 5 pc light armor.

Group PvE isn't as fun when you're doing less damage than others because you aren't built in an optimal way. PvP isn't as fun when others have setups that are so much better that you basically stand no chance. So eventually, to have the best time on the game, I adjust to be more optimal. With hybridization and now subclasses, that means I'm much more limited in how I can adjust, that's my problem. I hate having my real options so limited.

NoSoup · April 10

You really will be able to be a shepherd now with a Twilight, Clanfear, Blast Bones, Skeletal Archer, Netch and Guardian Bear all active at once being buffed by Dadric Prey.....

Twohothardware · April 10

JaxontheUnfortunate wrote: »

I suspect a handful of skill line combinations will become "meta" the rest will never be used.

There will be more variety than what we have now where you basically just have like Sorc or Nightblade dominating the PvP meta. There's dozens of meta combinations you could come up with when you can take the top meta class and combine it with a subclass from any other class.

spartaxoxo · April 10

Perhaps in the score pushing/trifecta trial groups but those are always pretty homogenous. The rest of the game is going open a lot, I think. I think that's especially true if Overland's incoming difficulty ends up being really good. People will have a reason to actually build unique characters. It should be fun.

Crimsonorion · April 10

Ahh yes the usual "But my PvP" rants whenever class changes are made. And like usual the PvP'ers will rant, rave, threaten to leave..and then nothing will happen and PvP will remain the same. More choice is always the best way to go. It's an MMORPG. Massive MULTIPLAYER Role Playing Game. That means its more then just a few people who PvP on a daily basis, sorry