Depressing Character Login Screeen

Durnik · March 12

Game Engine is not relevant. The point to the post was the character screen is sad and depressing. If ESO chooses to replace it that should be able to be done in a small patch. Will they? Time will tell.

Credible_Joe · March 12

Durnik wrote: »

Game Engine is not relevant. The point to the post was the character screen is sad and depressing. If ESO chooses to replace it that should be able to be done in a small patch. Will they? Time will tell.

This is the same attitude stubborn project managers have when a dev tells them something they don't want to hear. You can say it's unrelated and declare it's an easy update as much as you want, doesn't make it less related, doesn't make it easy or simple.

ZOS_Kevin · March 12

Durnik wrote: »

Game Engine is not relevant. The point to the post was the character screen is sad and depressing. If ESO chooses to replace it that should be able to be done in a small patch. Will they? Time will tell.

You are right. Did not mean to derail the conversation. Just wanted to take the opportunity while the question was asked about engines.

But to your point, we are including this feedback in our reports to flag both the feedback about the general feeling around current character select screen and feedback asking for the choice to choose.

Morimizo · March 12

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

But we will share this with the team again just to make sure they know that there is still interest.

There is ALWAYS interest in customization. Variety FTW.

UrQuan · March 12

dragonlord500 wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

dragonlord500 wrote: »

I would like to say this.

you could copy the game onto a new engine so the team can get used to it. it would be a special version of the test server but it wont be the same game per-say. that way ESO is on a new engine and after a long time you would be able to easily copy all account data unto the new engine once the devs learn how the new engine works.

There is no copying the game onto a new engine. The engine IS the game. For all practical purposes, there is no separating the game from the engine.

You could do the opposite-- Make a different game with the same engine. But that game would effectively be an ESO reskin with all the flaws and issues currently present.

Over and over again it's explained. Building a new engine, or even just adapting the current game's database to a different engine is the same as asking them to develop an entirely new game from the ground up. And unless you want a moratorium on ESO content for the next 5+ years, that pitch is dead on arrival.

then how and why is the engine they use soo damn limited? I thought anything can be upgraded with new hardware and such. there's no way it can be a programming limit as that can be upgraded endlessly.

you can pretty much copy everything on your old computer over to a new one when you plug in the hard drive to the new one or sign into your microsoft account and a lot of things is copied over to the new computer as well.

I just dont understand how can it ever be like this...

Tell me you've never worked in IT without telling me you've never worked in IT...

Desiato · March 12

twisttop138 wrote: »

I believe that the new prologue quest released with this update, as well as news surrounding this years upcoming story involves the worm cult and the return of Manamarco (spelling?) So it would stand to reason Mr. Bal will also be involved. Speculation on my part for sure so grain of salt but it stands to reason.

Edit spelling.

Thank you for clarifying.

I still think they failed in terms of relevancy because they used old art assets so, at least to me, it just looks dated.

In regards to discussions about the engine: I understand Kevin isn't a software developer, but a customizable character select screen is certainly within their ability, something the engine is capable of, and would be relatively easy.

tomofhyrule · March 12

dragonlord500 wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

dragonlord500 wrote: »

I would like to say this.

you could copy the game onto a new engine so the team can get used to it. it would be a special version of the test server but it wont be the same game per-say. that way ESO is on a new engine and after a long time you would be able to easily copy all account data unto the new engine once the devs learn how the new engine works.

There is no copying the game onto a new engine. The engine IS the game. For all practical purposes, there is no separating the game from the engine.

You could do the opposite-- Make a different game with the same engine. But that game would effectively be an ESO reskin with all the flaws and issues currently present.

Over and over again it's explained. Building a new engine, or even just adapting the current game's database to a different engine is the same as asking them to develop an entirely new game from the ground up. And unless you want a moratorium on ESO content for the next 5+ years, that pitch is dead on arrival.

I just dont understand how can it ever be like this...

Yes, we see. And people have been trying to explain this.

A game engine is not like a computer you can just copy software onto. A game engine is more like the foundations of a building that you build off of. A complex 11-year-old MMO like ESO is like a skyscraper at this point, with lots of floors and different connections with the elevators and the plumbing and the wiring.

Do you think we can just say “hey, why don’t we just pick up the Empire State Building and put it over in London instead. That should only take a few minutes since we already know London can support large buildings and NYC is overcrowded.”

For better or for worse, ESO is bound by the engine it uses. “Just get a new engine” is saying “Make a brand new game.”

Jaimeh · March 13

I'm also not enjoying the new screen, and would love the ability to be able to change it in the future (even just 2-3 options would be nice, for eg., a bright landscape, a darker themed like coldharbour, and a neutral one).

Jestir · March 13

Let's also not ignore that the game started development all the way back in 2007.

Ancient spaghetti code isnt the most flexible thing.

LadyGP · March 13

dragonlord500 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for this explanation.
Although, I just feel like the "technical limitations" have been an excuse for so many things... At this point, if ZOS plans to keep updating the game and if it remains cost-effective, is it even being considered to switch to a new engine?

Gonna piggyback off of this because I see suggestions like this from time to time and I do think context and scope are required when talking about a new engine. And please bear with me because this might be a bit long and I am not an engineer. First, I want to acknowledge that it is frustrating to hear that a feature wanted is not available currently because of a technical limitation. It is frustrating for us too. We want to be able to provide as many options as possible to you (without breaking core design philosophy).

To @LadyGP's general point, changing engines is no small feat. It isn't like copying assets and placing them in a new engine and everything will work as is. Totally understand the thought of switching the engine sounds like it will solve problems, but doing that is more or less the equivalent building a whole new game. Even then, there is no miracle engine. All engines come with pros and cons, which the team has to adapt for.

Technical limitations can encompass a lot. Some of it is we would need to build out the tech to make x thing happen. Sometimes it's "we could do x thing, but then it could cause y issue to happen and that could impact performance." So it is working around those problems and hopefully finding a good solution. And those things conflict with the biggest enemy of all, time.

Now that being said, the good news is we are working on things to better adapt to some of the limitations. That is why we asked for that list of top pain points and bugs. And Rich recently followed up to note that we are working on some of those asks right now and have several others on the roadmap internally. We are working to see what can be tackled now and problem solve how to tackle other requests down the line. This is always going back to what Matt said in the end of year letter. This is a year of change and the goal is to better meet the wants and needs of you, the player.

Also want to note that when we note a technical limitation, that doesn't mean we won't do it. It just means we can't right this second. We take this feedback to the team and we continue to evaluate on what is possible and when. The list of pain points and bugs is also helpful to narrow down our focus.

Hopefully, this was helpful to provide context around how we think about limitations and the thought around switching game engines. And these issues are not unique to us, but rather part of game development.

I would like to say this.

you could copy the game onto a new engine so the team can get used to it. it would be a special version of the test server but it wont be the same game per-say. that way ESO is on a new engine and after a long time you would be able to easily copy all account data onto the new engine once the devs learn how the new engine works.

ill admit it will take quite a long time and it will likely divide the dev team but this way the game can continue to live out a much longer life span on a new more updated engine.

To be blunt - 0% chance this would ever happen. The dev team alone isn't big enough to handle two games basically. Plus the absolute monster amount of resources (time/money) to make this happen would be.... yeah not a soul would sign off.

It's a great concept but when you bring it into the business world (and ZoS #1 goal is they have to make a profit.. they are a business at the end of the day) the math just doesn't math.

Like Kevin said - it would be like making a whole new game and you can't just "copy" a 10+ year old game to a new engine. It would take years to get even just the current version of the game copied over and that isn't including copying any new content over.

IMO the smarter move is for ZoS to focus on making what they have better. Spend their resources around coming up with creative solutions to these limitations. That is where the math would math and leadership would sign off on it.

LadyGP · March 13

sans-culottes wrote: »

dragonlord500 wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

dragonlord500 wrote: »

I would like to say this.

you could copy the game onto a new engine so the team can get used to it. it would be a special version of the test server but it wont be the same game per-say. that way ESO is on a new engine and after a long time you would be able to easily copy all account data unto the new engine once the devs learn how the new engine works.

There is no copying the game onto a new engine. The engine IS the game. For all practical purposes, there is no separating the game from the engine.

You could do the opposite-- Make a different game with the same engine. But that game would effectively be an ESO reskin with all the flaws and issues currently present.

Over and over again it's explained. Building a new engine, or even just adapting the current game's database to a different engine is the same as asking them to develop an entirely new game from the ground up. And unless you want a moratorium on ESO content for the next 5+ years, that pitch is dead on arrival.

then how and why is the engine they use soo damn limited? I thought anything can be upgraded with new hardware and such. there's no way it can be a programming limit as that can be upgraded endlessly.

you can pretty much copy everything on your old computer over to a new one when you plug in the hard drive to the new one or sign into your microsoft account and a lot of things is copied over to the new computer as well.

I just dont understand how can it ever be like this...

The idea that an engine can be “upgraded endlessly” like hardware is a common misconception, but game engines don’t function the same way as physical components.

A game engine is essentially a massive, interdependent software framework built with a specific set of capabilities and limitations. While some elements can be improved or expanded, the core architecture defines what’s possible.

Think of it like an old house—sure, you can renovate it, upgrade parts of the electrical system, and replace some pipes, but at a certain point, the foundation itself limits what you can do. If you wanted open-concept living but your house was built with essential load-bearing walls, then you’d have to rebuild the house from scratch rather than just “upgrade” the walls away.

ESO’s engine is deeply integrated into every aspect of the game’s systems. Simply “porting it” to a new engine isn’t like swapping a hard drive—it would require reprogramming massive portions of the game from the ground up. That’s why MMOs rarely get full engine replacements; it’s just not feasible without years of redevelopment.

yeah, basically this is what I was trying to say

wolfie1.0. · March 13

I wouldn't even mind if there were achievements needed for certain screens...

TaSheen · March 13

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I wouldn't even mind if there were achievements needed for certain screens...

I wouldn't appreciate that at all. I don't do achievements, hate that sort of "gold star" system.

sans-culottes · March 13

TaSheen wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I wouldn't even mind if there were achievements needed for certain screens...

I wouldn't appreciate that at all. I don't do achievements, hate that sort of "gold star" system.

Nevertheless, many things are gated behind this system.

licenturion · March 13

This is semi-related

I play with a hybrid setup (controller for exploration/combat and keyboard for quest, mail, inventory stuff)

I noticed that they replaced the startup screen for controller mode, but forgot to change the picture for keyboard. The controller screen is a nicely animated screen.

ghastley · March 13

The characteristic this screen shares with the previous one is that the light illuminating the character is not the "standard daylight" used previously. Gold Road used a very orange light, and now we're getting blue, both of which make the character's skin look - wrong, maybe sick? With the same background images, but regular light on the character, there probably would not be any issues.

LadyGP · March 13

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I wouldn't even mind if there were achievements needed for certain screens...

I like this idea.... NGL.

It would be cool if you had screens for a bunch of different things. Similar to how trifectas have some mounts there could be screens associated with them. More rewards for doing "the things". Plus, it gives incentive for people to do some older content. Say you have never done this trial before but you really like the screen... now you have a reason to do an older trial.

Obviously this is dependent on if the engine allows it or not but... yeah I like this idea.

licenturion · March 13

LadyGP wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

I wouldn't even mind if there were achievements needed for certain screens...

I like this idea.... NGL.

It would be cool if you had screens for a bunch of different things. Similar to how trifectas have some mounts there could be screens associated with them. More rewards for doing "the things". Plus, it gives incentive for people to do some older content. Say you have never done this trial before but you really like the screen... now you have a reason to do an older trial.

Obviously this is dependent on if the engine allows it or not but... yeah I like this idea.

I don't like this idea because we all know that the next step will be: buying your start screen.

Livvy · March 13

I absolutely HATE this login screen.

Totally depressing. I want to be uplifted when I log in to a game. Not depressed.

So happy it's almost Spring here. Everything else is looking up. Then I login to this game and it's like being met with death.

Why there cannot be an option for a different screen, I don't understand. I'm happy for those that like it. But for those that don't, it is just sad and unnecessary to have this inflicted upon us every time we log in.

I'd rather have a blank screen than this...

sans-culottes · March 13

Livvy wrote: »

I absolutely HATE this login screen.

Totally depressing. I want to be uplifted when I log in to a game. Not depressed.

So happy it's almost Spring here. Everything else is looking up. Then I login to this game and it's like being met with death.

Why there cannot be an option for a different screen, I don't understand. I'm happy for those that like it. But for those that don't, it is just sad and unnecessary to have this inflicted upon us every time we log in.

I'd rather have a blank screen than this...

I’m sorry this login screen affects you in this way. I much prefer it to the Gold Road screen.

whitecrow · March 13

Livvy wrote: »

Why there cannot be an option for a different screen, I don't understand.

I don't either. If they can change the screen each year, I don't know why they can't simply add another option. I don't see what a simple static background image has to do with the "game engine."

velarax · March 13

Yes. this login screen makes me NOT want to play. It's depressing, bleak and cold. I hate cold harbor and have never played in it for more than an hour. Why can't we have the colourful, cheerful screens we used to have? How bout offering a choice?

Warcraft now has campsite screens for toons.

Surely you clever Zenimax guys can come up with a login screen that doesn't suck the fun out of the game before you even log in?

SilverBride · March 13

Maitsukas wrote: »

2025 - Too gloomy

2024 - Too yellow

2023 - Ugly mushroom

I had forgotten about the ugly mushroom!

sans-culottes · March 13

velarax wrote: »

Yes. this login screen makes me NOT want to play. It's depressing, bleak and cold. I hate cold harbor and have never played in it for more than an hour. Why can't we have the colourful, cheerful screens we used to have? How bout offering a choice?

Warcraft now has campsite screens for toons.

Surely you clever Zenimax guys can come up with a login screen that doesn't suck the fun out of the game before you even log in?

Can you please clarify what it is about this that negatively affects your experience? The login screens may not have your preferred background, but it’s ultimate just a lobby.

LPapirius · March 13

The bleached out blue of Coldharbour is just depressing. It's why I almost never go back to Coldharbour. Now what we're getting is a depressing log in screen every time we log on or swap between characters.

davidtk · March 13

whitecrow wrote: »

Livvy wrote: »

Why there cannot be an option for a different screen, I don't understand.

I don't either. If they can change the screen each year, I don't know why they can't simply add another option. I don't see what a simple static background image has to do with the "game engine."

I can't understand it too.
Menu background music was just a file so just add function to select was doable.
Background scenery is similar. Previous map/cell/background was there and was replaced every chapter so it should be doable to add back previous backgrounds and add option to choose.

Edit: I wrote anoit other engine where was backgrounds via game maps. Deleted.

johnebrown · March 14

I skimmed through this thread so maybe I missed it, but please at least give us a few options to pick through, so we can at least pick the least annoying one. This current character screen annoys me every time I look at it, and I can't play the game without going through the character selection.

JiubLeRepenti · March 14

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for this explanation.
Although, I just feel like the "technical limitations" have been an excuse for so many things... At this point, if ZOS plans to keep updating the game and if it remains cost-effective, is it even being considered to switch to a new engine?

Gonna piggyback off of this because I see suggestions like this from time to time and I do think context and scope are required when talking about a new engine. And please bear with me because this might be a bit long and I am not an engineer. First, I want to acknowledge that it is frustrating to hear that a feature wanted is not available currently because of a technical limitation. It is frustrating for us too. We want to be able to provide as many options as possible to you (without breaking core design philosophy).

To @LadyGP's general point, changing engines is no small feat. It isn't like copying assets and placing them in a new engine and everything will work as is. Totally understand the thought of switching the engine sounds like it will solve problems, but doing that is more or less the equivalent building a whole new game. Even then, there is no miracle engine. All engines come with pros and cons, which the team has to adapt for.

Technical limitations can encompass a lot. Some of it is we would need to build out the tech to make x thing happen. Sometimes it's "we could do x thing, but then it could cause y issue to happen and that could impact performance." So it is working around those problems and hopefully finding a good solution. And those things conflict with the biggest enemy of all, time.

Now that being said, the good news is we are working on things to better adapt to some of the limitations. That is why we asked for that list of top pain points and bugs. And Rich recently followed up to note that we are working on some of those asks right now and have several others on the roadmap internally. We are working to see what can be tackled now and problem solve how to tackle other requests down the line. This is always going back to what Matt said in the end of year letter. This is a year of change and the goal is to better meet the wants and needs of you, the player.

Also want to note that when we note a technical limitation, that doesn't mean we won't do it. It just means we can't right this second. We take this feedback to the team and we continue to evaluate on what is possible and when. The list of pain points and bugs is also helpful to narrow down our focus.

Hopefully, this was helpful to provide context around how we think about limitations and the thought around switching game engines. And these issues are not unique to us, but rather part of game development.

Thanks a lot Kevin for this long and complete answer. I was not expecting that much tbh.

Very happy to learn that you're working on options to better adapt to some of these limitations. Can't wait to see what this will bring us in the future.

AngryPenguin · March 14

Agreed. The Coldharbour theme is just depressing and off putting. yuk!

sans-culottes · March 14

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Agreed. The Coldharbour theme is just depressing and off putting. yuk!

I think it looks nice. It’s vastly improved over the previous several versions, none of which were visually appealing to me.