Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

Guess the highly-coordinated and synergizing vet trial HM trifecta runners are the OP's next target? It's the same concept, right, just PvE rather than PvP?

But in that context, pvp vs pve yes, its massively different.

"Winning" against NPC's is not exactly the same as "Winning" against other players by having a severe advantage over them.

In the context of being a well-organized group that thoughtfully chooses the gear, skills, etc, to help the group succeed in their goal, precisely what is described in the OP, they are the same.

Only their goal differs.

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

The argument isn't about banning or punishing coordinated play

You literally named the thread "Should ball groups violate TOS?"
What other purpose is there to claiming someone is violating TOS other than getting them punished or banned?

To be fair, I think a mod changed the title.

Personally, I think using allowed mechanics in any way that allows you to do things you know damned well shouldn't be possible is completely unethical. But it's next to impossible to prove people are knowingly doing that.

Regardless, lots of things in life are unethical but not in any enforceable way

CatoUnchained wrote: »

crappyjazz1964 wrote: »

I know it's frustrating to fight them. So I joined one. There is so much work and coordination that goes into them, it's really quite beautiful.

I used to run with one of the sweatiest ball groups I think of all time and there was nothing beautiful about it. It wasn't even very fun, and that was when there were decent counters to ball groups still so there was some challenge to it, unlike now. It wasn't near as fun as solo play and 1vX'ing or running in a small group of friends with essentially uncoordinated builds.

Your mileage may vary.

Whether or not they violate the TOS they are destroying PVP in Cyro. I used to pvp all the time. Now I rarely go in. There is no real competition when they are there.

This argument seems like bait but below is a link to the same issue, just argued differently.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666573/no-clear-counter-play

No they dont. Ballgroups use sets and skills which are in game. You cant blame someone for using stuff the game provides.

Ballgroups are like HM trials teams. I was in a ballgroup and the coordination, sets and all the stuff is not so funny as you think. What we see in Cyro is just the result, you need a bunch of sets from trials, dungeons etc. blablabla. After you got this it is time to practice and take a look what is needed or must be improve.

on the other hand when i saw players heavy attacking a ballgroup or dragon leap into them this will never work. Focus the healer and attack together one player. And this is the main problem i saw so far. No negate on them and just single player which attack.

strebor2095 wrote: »

@ OP

Fundamentally, more players should beat fewer players.

This is why Battlegrounds close if even one person doesn't show up. The matches have to be fair, even if one team has more coordination and skill than the other.

strebor2095 wrote: »

@ OP

Fundamentally, more players should beat fewer players.

No they shouldn't. This also has never been the philosophy of ESO's PVP. Vicious Death has been around for many years.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for commenting on this.

As @React said, I too will be waiting to see this particular Q&A before I comment one way or the other.

I also want to re-iterate what @spartaxoxo exclaimed, that while majority of us agree that ball groups are not in violation of TOS, the sheer amount of raw power that such groups have access to via the countless sets that can stack buffs, effects and healing that the average player or less organized groups will never have access to, combined with the borderline auto-pilot pull set in Rush of Agony/Rushing Agony that makes wiping effectively the entire populations worth of players in a single push has made it seem like ball groups are exploiting something, even though they aren't and this amount of power able to be stacked by these groups really does need addressing.

I also want to reinforce the other point that was made by @React that there is a perception among the general player base that the team fully endorses ball groups and the type of behavior that they inflict on the general PvP population due to ZOS actions of immediately deleting/removing every single set (A recent example being Azureblight from last patch) that is effective against organized groups but cannot be abused by those same groups. This perception really needs to be addressed, because it is causing a lot of issues and disconnect between the devs and the players, when the general player base finally finds something to fight these groups then it gets immediately taken away after a single complaint by a few members of said groups, yet some sets (see Rush of Agony/Rushing Agony) that are being abused to the point of bordering exploited by these same groups, remain in the game untouched despite common widespread complaints from the general players about them.

I do want to add one more thing if I may, the whole point and strength of playing in an organized raid such as a ball group is supposed to come from organization, coordination and skill, yet currently that power/strength is obtained by stacking as many buff sets as possible and having 2-3 players slot a mass area pull set that has multiple game breaking aspects and does 90% of the work of killing their targets for them.
It is clear to most of us in PvP that the current (at least how it is perceived) design philosophy of trying to balance this group power via sets is just not working. There needs to be a huge shift/limitation in core aspects such as being able to stack buffs, heals, effects, shields etc. such that ball groups return to being strong predominantly through high level teamwork and skill and less so by the countless stacked buffs/effects and sets that play half the game for them that they alone have access to that nobody else can access without becoming another ball group.

forum_gpt wrote: »

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

An even more egregious example might be snake in the stars. This set was introduced after numerous threads complaining about the stacking of same morph HOTs, something responsible for a huge amount of the over-the-top survivability of these groups. In theory, this is the perfect set to counter this behavior - but for some reason the set has a global cooldown instead of a per target cooldown, resulting in it being completely worthless against these groups.

I'm sorry, but this is the most ignorant thing I've heard people say about ballgroups. Snake in the Stars will 100% kill a player in a group with lots of HoTs on them. Of course, you need more than just one set—you need to actually do damage. Complaining that it has a global cooldown instead of a per-target cooldown completely ignores the fact that, when properly utilized, it still punishes excessive HoT stacking. The issue isn’t the set—it’s people expecting one passive effect to do all the work for them instead of combining it with pressure.

Applying the 11,170/s for 4s dot (maximum potential of the set) to a single member of a ballgroup won't have an impact in any scenario. We see similar values being applied to the whole group at once through things like oils and coldfires, and in most cases it's completely shrugged off.

The set was created after dozens of posts over the course of months complaining about the HOT stacking in practice by these groups - it was obviously intended as a band-aid "solution" to those complaints.

You ignored the last part of my post where I stated "The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all." I don't think sets should be the counter to terrible balance like HOT stacking, but zenimax appears to believe that is the best way forward. If they're going to introduce tools for this purpose, they should actually be effective in the role they're intended for. The current iteration of SITS is completely worthless for it's intended purpose. If it was changed like I'm suggesting to have a per target cooldown, it would actually be a viable tool to offset the ridiculous healing acquired by HOT stacking, and could be impactful when combined with things like siege, timed ults/negates,etc. It wouldn't be a "passive effect doing all the work for you", like you're suggesting. It would simply negate a significant portion of the HOT stacking to allow these groups to be more prone to the aforementioned tools. It would still be a 4s duration with a 12s coodown, meaning you would need to time it carefully to actually take advantage of it.

Let's be honest. It's completely disingenuous to suggest that SITS with a per target CD would be just as effective against ungrouped/disorganized pugs as it would be against ballgroups. No disorganized group is going to have 10 instances of healing ticking on them every single second, whereas nearly every single properly built ballgroup absolutely will.

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

Guess the highly-coordinated and synergizing vet trial HM trifecta runners are the OP's next target? It's the same concept, right, just PvE rather than PvP?

But in that context, pvp vs pve yes, its massively different.

"Winning" against NPC's is not exactly the same as "Winning" against other players by having a severe advantage over them.

Let's put this in some context here and apply it to real world logic. So what your saying is that if a well coordinated team is having lots of success they should be banned from the game?

That's what your asking for. A TOS violation and penalty is a suspension or ban.

So if it's the world cup and one team is just blowing out the competition within the rules of the game you would just ban them completely because no other team comes close?

Ya that's not going to fly too long, you might as well ban grouping in Cyrodiil and kill off pvp.

I could understand making it harder for balling to occur. Like removing shield stacking or applying cooldowns on certian skills or effects but calling it a TOS violation is too far.

Asdara wrote: »

ZOS has repeatedly stated that fair play and game balance are core principles of ESO. However, the continued presence of organized "ball groups" in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds represents a direct contradiction to these principles and may even violate the game's Terms of Service.

Ball groups exploit unintended interactions between skills, stacking healing, mitigation, and synergy effects in a way that eliminates meaningful counterplay. The result is a gameplay experience that discourages new players, frustrates small-scale PvPers, and leads to significant server performance degradation. In this regard, ball grouping is functionally identical to multiboxing, which ZOS has already classified as a bannable exploit.

Multiboxing is prohibited because it grants an unfair advantage by synchronizing multiple characters to act as a single, unbreakable force, overwhelming normal players through sheer coordination. Ball groups achieve the exact same result ,not through software, but through meticulously organized play that abuses AoE healing, mitigation, and synergy stacking to create an unstoppable, lag-inducing cluster of players. Just as multiboxing removes meaningful counterplay and damages server performance, so too does ball grouping.

ZOS has implemented multiple balance patches aimed at reducing the effectiveness of these groups, proving that they recognize the issue. Yet, the core mechanics enabling them persist. Given the repeated efforts to limit this playstyle, it is reasonable to argue that ball groups are, in essence, exploiting the game.

ESO’s Terms of Service prohibit the use of exploits or game mechanics in unintended ways that give an unfair advantage. If ZOS is serious about this policy, then organized ball grouping must be classified as a violation. Either ZOS needs to implement hard restrictions to eliminate the playstyle or take direct enforcement action against players and groups abusing these mechanics.

It’s time to demand a fairer, more competitive PvP experience that does not rely on server-breaking exploits.

ZOS, we need clear enforcement!! when will you act?!

Couldn't agree more.

It's not about banning people just because they're part of a 'coordinated group'. Ok so let me ask you this, why does a ball group need so much power? Like if I'm part of a casual group, we have comms, we're in a coordinated group... we don't let our scroll runner get killed while we hide our DC faces behind the mile gate and then let AD take the scroll, then our 'lead' takes the scroll from them, kills all of them by himself with the rest of the group just buffing and healing him so he can show off.

Something's gotta give. You guys are in denial says, "Uh well its just a coordinated group, its just uh uh...". No my dear friends, its became something more than that. In war you have battle lines you don't have one group of riflemen throwing first aids kits on one person as he single handedly takes on an entire faction.

It just doesn't make sense and some of you treat this like we're stupid. I'm stubborn ok but we're not stupid and you're abusing both groups buffs, sets and most importantly the other players on the server with you.

I ... I can't help what other people think but I know bad behavior coming from trolls and people who will keep getting away with something as long as they can. Its just a shame how often you find exploiters and cheap tricksters in video games trying to hide in the light. Don't try and say a bunch of ball groupers is same as like a casual group. One is there to troll people and be seen, the other is there to play the game. And you know who you are. And expect people to keep leaving Cyrodiil until this crap changes.

I for one am seriously debating ever going back because of all the crap that goes on and one-sided shenanigans. Just tired of it people getting away with being lousy to one another. If you're so full of goodwill to other people then stop standing around when someone who -you don't like- picks up a scroll or hammer. Stop calling people Elitist and advertising it in your AD Guild when you guys are the ones who won't rez or support solo people, telling us the faction doesn't need us and we need to leave your server.

ZOS, mad respect but you got a big problem with some of these ball groups and guilds.