No Clear Counter Play

Adamus

I'm AdamusBlade, a PvP raid leader and GM of a PvP guild. I've been playing since launch, PvPing for 8-9 years, and raid-leading for over 7 years. Primarily PvPing in large groups, I also appreciate my pre-raid solo time.

Healing in PvP
Healing Springs is a ground AoE skill that used to work a bit differently at game launch. You used to be able to place multiple AoEs of the skill on the ground, with each cast living out the life of the skill, allowing a 'ripple' effect for the caster to create a path of heals. However, it was rumored to have created a few issues with performance if too many players cast the skill in a single place. And now we have a version that removes previous ground effects once a new one is placed. I bring this up to draw attention to Echoing Vigor and its use in PvP. With the number of sources in the game for healing, there is no need to have a healing skill that can stack endlessly like Echoing Vigor does. If overwhelming a single location with a multitude of healing springs in a single location hurt performance, the 144+ Echoing Vigors in a group of 12 must be creating a similar strain on performance. This is only one skill; it does not take into account the number of other HoTs, AoEs, burst heals, and sets that are used. In general, healing is over tuned, not from a percentage standpoint but more of a number of sources issue. Only 6 Vigors would be a good start.

Shield Stacking
Shield stacking has gotten a bit out of control when all you see hitting some groups is (shield) with every attack. Either from cast or set, there is an endless supply of shields, where players take (0) damage in situations they should have been taken down. The time it takes to get through every layer of shields, their cooldown has already passed and reset. 60k+ shields is not unheard of, the multiple sources allow other shields to cover gaps while cooldowns from others recover. Cutting through 60k+ is one thing, but then you need to cut through 35-40k of health behind resistances/defenses supported by heals that outperform most damage. Any set that could be used to counter this has been nerfed beyond balanced, probably due to their effectiveness.

CC & Movement
CC immunity is over buffed in a way that does not account for large-scale combat in Cyrodiil. With the extended timer to CC immunity & free breakfrees in CP, immoveable potions, jewelry enchant potion timer reduction, and immunity from skills & sets. One skill can cancel an entire groups assault of immovability attacks. At any sight of weakness, with enough swift traits, CP speed boasts, expedition buffs, and speed caps can be reached even while wearing Snow Treaders. Lockdowns have been a time tested counter to stacking tactics, the original rapids was essential for most organized groups, as it would remove immoralities from the entire group and buffed speed. It almost seemed fitting that CC immunity and movement was the first thing to be buffed out of balance.

Inadequate Counters
The counters for over healing, shield stacking, and minimal CC windows are few and far between. The debuff Defile was nerfed during the previous CP system that included Defile amplifiers in CP, amplifiers that are now removed, but this is only one named debuff; it doesn't stack, and it can be easily removed. It does so little, it's even applied with a class skill that heals. There have been other attempts, like heal absorption, but that's one set and can be considered useless due to the manner in which it is triggered. It requires you to do melee damage and puts the effect on the ground with a timer. No damage until the shields are gone; PvP groups are in constant movement with almost no CC window, and if it does hit, it takes maybe 1/3 of the time off 1/4 of the active Vigor heals. Another attempt, Snake in the Stars, was nerfed before it even made it to live. And most recently Azureblight, a set being used to counter the over healed, over shielded groups currently running in Cyrodiil. Where Plaguebreak is failing with it being ignored or purged & healed/shielded like it wasn't there. Azureblight was stripping those shields and cutting down the over healing. In it's nerf spoiler for the pts, it says there's 'no clear counter play'. Try not stacking, spread your group, purge, don't stand in red circles and use line of sight, just don't stack in one place. Azureblight is only being applied because DoTs are applying it. Azureblight has been a counter play for a tactic I see some groups overuse, but maybe that's why it's being nerfed into the ground. If the amount of over healing and shield stacking isn't going to be addressed, other than introducing new sources of healing and additional shields to stack, consider sets like Azureblight as a direction to balancing.

Stacking Tactics
Stacking heals & shields may be one issue, but stacking a full group is another. Grouping up in a single place is a long-standing tactic in ESO, and I do believe it has a place in PvP. I often use it as a tactic when I'm leading a group, but for me it is only a single tactic and not the backbone of a group's structure. Stack and burn is how some bosses are defeated in PvE, but not every boss can be taken down this way; the same philosophy should be brought to PvP. Ballgroups (PvP stack groups) take full advantage of the above, speed-capped, limited CC windows, shield stacking, and over healing; if there is an overpowered set or skill they will find it and use it. They have always adapted in different ways, and I would often adapt in turn. As of late, almost every counter to this tactic has been nerfed while adding new aspects that assist the tactic. At which point does the pendulum start to swing in the other direction? 'No clear counter play' is a reason Azureblight is being nerfed; where's the counter play to groups that overuse stacking tactics? Because Azureblight has been the counter play in live, other sets are thought to be.

Not All Good Fights are Victories
Our group tends to get into massive fights, typically with the entire server. Sometimes we hold, and sometimes we are overrun, but in the end, the best fights are ones you don't know the outcome of, win or lose. Working together as a team and striving to improve and be better players are not unique attributes of ballgroups, they are fundamentals of any group that plays together. The power creep given to stacking from limiting counters, movement buffs, over healing, and shield stacking has gotten out of hand and is beyond unbalanced gameplay. It does an unfair injustice to players who are looking for a challenging fight and look to improve their skills as a group. Players cannot improve if the game continues to remove challenges while making it easier to run one tactic uncontested.

Final Notes
I will admit the coming nerf to Azureblight has prompted this post, but it has been along time coming with the constant attention to buffing stacking tactics and nerfing any counter play. If Azureblight is so effective that it needs to be removed from PvP in the manor proposed in the PTS, what does it say about the groups it's used on as an effective counter to? Maybe Azureblight isn't overpowered, maybe it is; maybe it's all the other unused sets are underpowered, nerfed under older CP & combat systems that isn't relevant anymore. Ballgroups are not bad, but the lack of counters, CC immunities, and stacking of heals & shields, there is fading evidence they are good either. The constant support for this tactic with each update, intentional or unintentional, robs these players of any credibility of being end game top tier, by removing any challenge, threat, or danger to their stacking tactics in PvP.

Joy_Division

This is a good post. It is right about many things.

If there is one sentence in this post that should scream to the devs that things are out of control it is this:

Only 6 Vigors would be a good start.

We have so many stacking shields/heals that "only 6" is being touted as a needed step in the right direction. The OP is exactly right in which ZOS took out a very powerful and and lag inducing tactic - spamming healing springs, which wasn't really spammed because it required a restoration staff when DDs used swords/destro - and then replaced it with an ever more powerful and lag inducing tactic - spamming vigor, which really is spammed because hybridization made everyone's Vigors potent and better than Springs the HoT stuck after moving. Scribing is another huge offender as this once again does not require a healing weapon, and also comes with additional buffs easily spread/stacked to allies. This sort of power should only be unlocked through something like Mendor's Bond: it requires a resto staff, links one target, and actually requires the user to actively do things to maintain the spell.

I will add one crucial point to the OP's list: ZOS's approach to dealing with balance issues in PvP is deeply flawed. What they typically do is leave the broken mechanic in the game and try to provide us with some sort of specific counter (typically through sets). It's a bad idea because:

1. It leaves the broken mechanic in the game
2. To counter a broken mechanic, the sew set itself has to be (more) broken. Inevitably, because these sets are broken, they get nerfed (Shieldbreaker, Sloads, Snake in Stars, Azureblight, etc., etc.) leaving us with nothing to counter original broken mechanic
3. Sets have a huge opportunity cost. I hate the Rush of Agony set with a passion. OK, let me wear the Nibeney set. Now in all of my other encounters Vs OP sorcs, cloaking Nightblades, Polar Winding Wardens, et al., I'm probably going to lose because my monster set is worthless against them. So, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don;t situation.
4. Because these counters are so strong, they are used by the very people who were using the broken mechanic in the first place (proximity detonation, Vicious Death, Rush of Agony, etc, etc.)
5. Many of these are utterly impractical. Take the new Trample skill. It is obvious with the list of possible effects (heal absorption, removal of shields, defile, etc.) and its placement in the Assault line skill that ZOS knew scribing was going to be a boon for groups, but felt this skill would offer the counterplay necessary to offset that boon. Except they put a 1.5 second cast time on it. I don;t understand ZOS's fascination with cast times. It's obvious none of the people who made that set has ever tried to cast a skill with a 1.5 second cast time when a speed capped "ball group" bearing down on them with the Rush of Agony set. Tried it. Doesn't work. (The same is true for the Destruction Staff skill). Oh, and the horses never hit because they are too slow (I will outrun my horse after casting it).

The other sentence of wisdom in the OP is:

If Azureblight is so effective that it needs to be removed from PvP in the manor proposed in the PTS, what does it say about the groups it's used on as an effective counter to?

That's exactly right. I've been playing in organized groups since the beginning of the game. They've always been really strong. But the introductions of mechanics such as vigor/shield stack spam, Rush of Agony Set, Snow Treaders, etc., has lowered the skill necessary for groups and allowed them to attain a much higher power threshold than was possible in prior ESO iterations.

Sluggy

Adamus wrote: »

.. Ballgroups are not bad, but the lack of counters, CC immunities, and stacking of heals & shields, there is fading evidence they are good either. The constant support for this tactic with each update, intentional or unintentional, robs these players of any credibility of being end game top tier, by removing any challenge, threat, or danger to their stacking tactics in PvP.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. I'm glad to see at least a few people that play in them feel the same. Usually raid leaders accuse me of hating them because they 'use group tactics' when in fact I have no issue with that. What I hate is that their gear loadout and defensive stacking skills do so much of the heavy lifting that there really is no room for individual skill to shine in such a group. There's no need for things like standout healers that are paying attention and making the right moves when it counts because those heals and shields are running at all times without need for thought, observation, or reaction to anything around them and they are coming from nearly every person in the group. I hate that you are only as good as the sets you bring to the team in the eyes of most raid leaders.

I agree, ballroups in concept are not bad. The myriad of in-game mechanics that give benefits beyond anything anyone outside of such a group could ever hope to obtain are. It doesn't strengthen the need for coordinated and skilled group effort. It diminishes it. Drastically. And it makes everyone else fighting them feel diminished too because they can't do anything about it except hope that the raid makes a mistake and try to capitalize on that.

silky_soft

Exactly, there is not enough counter. Why is there not more sources of healing absorption or silence or shield absorbing or buff removal/suppression?

Another one is why don't same things stack like hemorrage? Has 3 stacks, then resets timer. Why don't other dots, hots or aoe effects stack to 3 then reset or extend the timer? Surely that's better for performance.

Elendir2am

When I read some insult on ballgroup address, I sometime point out that ZOS is to be blamed for it, not players.

Fact that moment some low tier ballgroupers make thread how some set is bad because it hurt them. Fill that thread with hyperbolas and lies. ZOS goes and nerf that set immediately......

How many thread about "nerf it, it killing me" we have? Yet if ballgroupers made it, it happen immediately.

Wycks

This is spot on.

The pedigree to run a ball group used to require some skill to defeat overwhelming numbers, but for some reason they have made them mindless 2 button spammers with no counter, the gameplay is inherently ridiculous to the point of embarrassment.

- AOE heals used to be ground targets which required movement and awareness on the part of the players, it could be countered. Both required some skill.
- Single target healers required dedicated peeler/skills, and situational awareness.
- There was no shield stacking, you had Barrier, Cleanse, Purge (not to mention caltrops , negate, etc). All are completely useless now with cc immunity and hot/shield stacking, mainly from sets and skills that auto apply.

No decisions are made in ball groups expect "everyone ult now.." and even that's a stretch with ridiculous sets and skills that clump players and double cc. Ever seen2 ball groups fight, it's a sad joke.

So many players have been driven away from this game because of mindless ball-groups, if it took skilll that would be one thing, but it doesn't. No one wants to be bulldozed my mediocre players with no counter.

Making the changes above would , would be a step in the right directions.

Ostonoha

Wycks wrote: »

This is spot on.

The pedigree to run a ball group used to require some skill to defeat overwhelming numbers, but for some reason they have made them mindless 2 button spammers with no counter, the gameplay is inherently ridiculous to the point of embarrassment.

- AOE heals used to be ground targets which required movement and awareness on the part of the players, it could be countered. Both required some skill.
- Single target healers required dedicated peeler/skills, and situational awareness.
- There was no shield stacking, you had Barrier, Cleanse, Purge (not to mention caltrops , negate, etc). All are completely useless now with cc immunity and hot/shield stacking, mainly from sets and skills that auto apply.

No decisions are made in ball groups expect "everyone ult now.." and even that's a stretch with ridiculous sets and skills that clump players and double cc. Ever seen2 ball groups fight, it's a sad joke.

So many players have been driven away from this game because of mindless ball-groups, if it took skilll that would be one thing, but it doesn't. No one wants to be bulldozed my mediocre players with no counter.

Making the changes above would , would be a step in the right directions.

Ill start this off by saying I agree that ball groups do need to be toned down. Capping hots would be a step in the right direction. That being said, lets at least make correct statements about ball groups as most of the problems are inherent to the games combat design, some that can be changed some that cant be. (no skill cooldowns being one of them)

them mindless 2 button spammers

The claims that people are mindless 2 button spammers. There are more abilities that are used than others sure, especially during execute and burst healing phases of a fight that are in fact spam of skills. However making it seem like people are running around and using only 2 skills is laughable and disingenuous. People are in a rotation that uses all their abilities. But I understand people on the outside only see 3-4 skills being used over and over. But lets also remember this is a game where you have 10 skills + 2 ults. Half of the skills are buffs of some sort, and that's not just ball groups but for literally every other aspect of the game.

AOE heals used to be ground targets which required movement and awareness on the part of the players,
Single target healers required dedicated peeler/skills, and situational awareness

Healers use blessing which is a burst heals that have to be aimed and timed. If we are talking about hots like vigor and regen, this is more of an issue of not having a cap. Burst healing still requires aiming and proper timing.

There was no shield stacking

This I agree with has become a major issue. With all the new scribing skills, sets, and class skills. This is becoming a problem. It should not take almost 60-70k worth of burst damage to take out a player. But this is also an issue that there is just so much burst damage in the game right now between scribing, synergies, sets ext. Its a power creep that is not healthy. A coordinated group has the ability to do 50-70k damage on a push (so they need massive shielding to protect from other groups). This leaves non coordinated groups at a massive disadvantage.


No decisions are made in ball groups expect "everyone ult now.."

I would argue they make about the same amount of decisions or more than any small scaler, zergling, or really anyone does. Again you have about 10 skills to choose from. It does not leave a lot of room for a variety of decisions (same as any solo, small scale or zergling). Block, cast heals, cast damage, use or dont use ult. (dont want to double negate or double barrier) Have to keep track of what their own group members are doing. Watch what the enemy is doing. The only added benefit is that movement is determined by a raid leader. That's about the only non decision being made.

So many players have been driven away from this game because of mindless ball-groups

When I was on the other night it seemed 50% of the population was in a ball group. Clearly there's a large part of the population that seems to enjoy it. There was also a que to log in. So I am failing to see where all these pvpers are being driven away. There has been a massive que during prime time on NA GH. At least on NA GH and NA BR, there's almost no ball groups online until prime time at like 9pm est-12. Outside of those hours there's maybe 1 or 2 if any online.

If anything should be blamed for any population decline, its the performance or lack thereof, increased pay to win (chapter updates and the sets/skills) with every patch, lack of any vision on what to do with cyro, continued shrinking pop caps, campaigns that are won by one particular time slot, and attrition from an aging game.

Again I agree 12man ball groups should be toned down in the power they have currently. I would love to go back to the pvp we had before summerset. But lets at least not be disingenuous about the playstyle.

Sheuib

TLDR

I think Cyrodiil is in a good place game play wise right now. They do need to get performance up some more, especially when large groups are on at the same time.

It is always the same as far as large organized groups in Cyrodiil. But, they can all be beat with another large organized group. I avoid the ball groups when I am playing solo but I look forward to those fights when I am with a guild.

Kartalin

Ostonoha wrote: »

Again I agree 12man ball groups should be toned down in the power they have currently. I would love to go back to the pvp we had before summerset. But lets at least not be disingenuous about the playstyle.

(Edited out most of the post so as to not repost large amounts of text)

This is all accurate and very well stated. As a healer in a ball group, and having frequently run rapids, at least 8 of 10 skills on my bars are constantly being utilized while engaging opponents — buffs ticking, hots ticking, damage synergies being placed, burst healing etc. Most of the raid group will be over 60 actions per minute while engaging opponents.

Healing and shielding are absolutely overtuned, especially shields with the introduction of scribing. My healing (active healing per second versus players) has actually dropped noticeably because of the sheer amount of shielding that is happening. But we still have to be ready for those moments when the shields are breached.

The whole pull meta has really become somewhat distasteful compared to what we had previously, but we are also not going to purposely nerf ourselves because our opponents will still be using it against us.

Turtle_Bot

Well said (entire post). Glad to see some raid leads out there who actually realize and understand just how out of hand group power creep has gotten compared to everything else.

Adamus wrote: »

Not All Good Fights are Victories
Our group tends to get into massive fights, typically with the entire server. Sometimes we hold, and sometimes we are overrun, but in the end, the best fights are ones you don't know the outcome of, win or lose. Working together as a team and striving to improve and be better players are not unique attributes of ballgroups, they are fundamentals of any group that plays together. The power creep given to stacking from limiting counters, movement buffs, over healing, and shield stacking has gotten out of hand and is beyond unbalanced gameplay. It does an unfair injustice to players who are looking for a challenging fight and look to improve their skills as a group. Players cannot improve if the game continues to remove challenges while making it easier to run one tactic uncontested.

For this specific point, I really wish this attitude was more common, it creates such a healthy environment, especially for PvP. This is also what I used to find the most enjoyable when I used to play in organized raids (not ball groups per say, but organized raids none the less). We looked for massive battles, win or lose, as long as we played as best we could, win or lose, it was fun and we always improved and found new things that helped us the next time. It's why I also moved on to small scale and then solo PvP as there were significantly more opportunities for those kinds of fights when solo/small scale compared to running in a full sized group.

Azureblight might have seemed like an OP counter to a very vocal minority of very mediocre players that play in a very niche playstyle, but for everyone else, AB was a much needed breath of air, from what was essentially a lights-out stranglehold that ball groups had over everything else in cyrodiil. If AB needed a nerf, then the ability to stack multiple sticky HoTs/shields, pull sets/skills, stackable buffs, near permanent CC immunity and the plethora of free speed that have been added into the game also needs addressing at the same time.

Ball groups should be stronger than an unorganized zerg, this is something everyone agrees on, but that strength should come via coordination, organization and skill, not via stacking heals, effects and buffs to borderline exploitative levels that are impossible to even think about obtaining for any other playstyle.

I really hope @ZOS_Kevin and the team can really take the points raised in this thread into account when making their final adjustments to Azureblight for release.

Durham

"Ball groups should be stronger than an unorganized zerg, this is something everyone agrees on, but that strength should come via coordination, organization and skill, not via stacking heals, effects and buffs to borderline exploitative levels that are impossible to even think about obtaining for any other playstyle."

I agree but they should be killable! I have seen good ball groups take out whole faction stacks and that is to much in my opinion. I have seen whole factions log out due to repeated farming. Siege does nothing they just stand in it. Bombs do nothing they just barrier. Heals are stacking to crazy levels, They can pull and bomb and kill 15 at a time... with no effort ....
Super broke!

Turtle_Bot

Durham wrote: »

I agree but they should be killable! I have seen good ball groups take out whole faction stacks and that is to much in my opinion. I have seen whole factions log out due to repeated farming. Siege does nothing they just stand in it. Bombs do nothing they just barrier. Heals are stacking to crazy levels, They can pull and bomb and kill 15 at a time... with no effort ....
Super broke!

Yep, this was my point.

The strength of a ball group is supposed to come from organization, coordination, etc, which still leaves them strong, but not broken at the levels they currently reach.

What allows them to reach their current level of absurdity/broken is the second part of my comment which is the part that is not ok and needs deleting from the game:

stacking heals, effects and buffs to borderline exploitative levels.

This is what is making them unkillable, even to their "counters" and is what needs adjusting.

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

I agree but they should be killable!

And they're "unkillable" because ZOS nerfs anything that would actually kill them. You end up with these absolutely miserable slogs where the ball group can't flip the keep, but the zerg can't kill the ball group, so the ball group ends up running in circles for 40 minutes holding an unflagged keep hostage. Who is this fun for?

Not the zerg. Not competitive group players. It's fun for pug stompers. That's it. Stop catering to this behavior.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ball groups should be stronger than an unorganized zerg, this is something everyone agrees on, but that strength should come via coordination, organization and skill

Instead ZOS exponentially compounds this advantage by pumping out game mechanics that benefit organized comp groups and only organized comp groups, while nerfing everything that benefits groups of randoms against them. Being organized is its own massive advantage, and then they get to enjoy a system rigged in their favor too.

Wycks

I've said this before, when the server is full of pugs , single players and organized small comps (under 6 players)
and devoid of organized ballgroups , its a hell of a lot more fun and dynamic. This happens very rarely.

I came back to the game after a 2+ year break about a year ago, for some reason I lucked out and happened to play during a few days in which there was practically no discernable ballgroups. Maybe they went on vacation, I have no idea, but it didn't last. It was crazy fun to be able to survive (and die) in the chaos of server with no ballgroups.

Besides bringing obvious lag to the game, ballgroups completely change the Cyrodil dynamic. Taking keeps and running around in circles ad nauseum even when they don't control the keep, using one technique to stack and bulldoze players with no counter . Preventing a more dynamic map for solo players and pugs to actually go out. A ridiculous bore fest and horrible gameplay.

LittlePinkDot

I thought "ball group" and "zerg" were the same thing.

Stridig

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I agree but they should be killable!

And they're "unkillable" because ZOS nerfs anything that would actually kill them. You end up with these absolutely miserable slogs where the ball group can't flip the keep, but the zerg can't kill the ball group, so the ball group ends up running in circles for 40 minutes holding an unflagged keep hostage. Who is this fun for?

Not the zerg. Not competitive group players. It's fun for pug stompers. That's it. Stop catering to this behavior.

They will scan private chat for "toxic" behavior while actively enabling the most toxic behavior.

Zabagad

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I thought "ball group" and "zerg" were the same thing.

This explains a lot of the comments you've made in the ball group threads...

The_Meathead

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I thought "ball group" and "zerg" were the same thing.

Zerg on Zerg fighting is the most fun part of Cyrodiil.

Ball Groups are an entirely different beastie that's no fun for anyone but themselves - and even that's questionable, as the playstyle is repetitive, tedious, and very lacking in autonomy.

xylena_lazarow

The_Meathead wrote: »

and even that's questionable, as the playstyle is repetitive, tedious, and very lacking in autonomy.

It's self-selecting. Most of the serious GvG players are long gone, so the guys still here are the ones that enjoy the limited playstyle, and enjoy running in circles stomping the same disorganized casuals over and over.

davelbier

The_Meathead wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I thought "ball group" and "zerg" were the same thing.

Zerg on Zerg fighting is the most fun part of Cyrodiil.

Ball Groups are an entirely different beastie that's no fun for anyone but themselves - and even that's questionable, as the playstyle is repetitive, tedious, and very lacking in autonomy.

yeah i was pretty much pvp only for 3 years and tried a ball group/guild once - boring af.

i want dynamic player vs player fights - the cyro siege zergs and stuff arent really it, BG has its own issue. when you get in a small group fight out in the open in cyro and theres no siege or ball group to ruin the fun it can be such a blast!

xylena_lazarow

OP does a good job organizing large groups with many randoms. I've always enjoyed my fights against them. To me that's the soul of Cyro. That's what people log for. Not 12 unkillable mega tryhards running in circles.

MedicInTheWild

I agree with OP, I hope Devs take this to heart that a Leader of a Comped group knows it needs adjusted ( Adjusted not nerfed into the ground ) to keep decent gameplay in Open PVP. i have made several post on ideas to lightly adjust Ballgroups from being to easy to be tanky and kill with almost no comps. But I can move into a ball group on some builds and become almost unkillable without even changing setup.

Seems most of my post only are seen by potato to keep us from bashing each other or to suspend me for being truthful. SO I hope coming from a leaders perspective opens some eyes.

tsaescishoeshiner

In addition to OP's ideas, how do some of these adjustments sound?

• Cap total damage shields at X% of base health, to reduce overshielding without nerfing individual skill values
• Add a skill or set with scaling heal absorption per nearby enemy, like proxy det for heal absorbtion instead of damage. Maybe it would be a short-duration but heavy heal absorb? This would nerf ballgroups who constantly heal up, compared to zergs who mostly get ult-comboed all at once before they can heal anyway
• Add a skill/set that suppresses bonus movement speed for your target(s) and for you, and snares your opponent (So you're at base movement speed and they're at less than 100%). This way, ballgroups themselves wouldn't wanna use it since they usually stack a lot of speed, and use pulls to group zergs up anyway.

Obviously, ballgroups would adjust to all of these factors with some new nonsense lol. Or these changes could make it worse lol! So the question is whether it would make the situation better or more interesting.

Jabbs_Giggity

Ostonoha wrote: »

So many players have been driven away from this game because of mindless ball-groups

When I was on the other night it seemed 50% of the population was in a ball group. Clearly there's a large part of the population that seems to enjoy it. There was also a que to log in. So I am failing to see where all these pvpers are being driven away. There has been a massive que during prime time on NA GH. At least on NA GH and NA BR, there's almost no ball groups online until prime time at like 9pm est-12. Outside of those hours there's maybe 1 or 2 if any online.

If anything should be blamed for any population decline, its the performance or lack thereof, increased pay to win (chapter updates and the sets/skills) with every patch, lack of any vision on what to do with cyro, continued shrinking pop caps, campaigns that are won by one particular time slot, and attrition from an aging game.

Again I agree 12man ball groups should be toned down in the power they have currently. I would love to go back to the pvp we had before summerset. But lets at least not be disingenuous about the playstyle.

Focusing on this statement alone, I can say this is the case. Xbox NA in GH generally has the following now-a-days:
1. One Alliance has 3 bars, the other two has 1-2 bars.
2. Prime-Time is sometimes 3 bars on all Alliances, but No Queue to get in.

The Population depends on which Alliance the swappers decide to play on, but almost certainly the other two alliances are never Pop-Locked.

DC and AD almost exclusively runs 2-3 BG's and then has some random solo's attacking outposts and resources. EP has maybe 1 BG, but wouldn't consider it "competitive". It's more like casuals and/or PuG's that are at least told how to setup their load-out. The rest is 90% exclusively randoms and solos with a couple of regular Guilds running non-organized groups.

Backtrack to aboooout U40 maybe? Populations were capped with 100+ queues. Before that, queues weren't as bad, but population caps seemed to be higher, to be fair.

Cyrodiil is 100% riddled with broken sets - be it procs, shields, etc. and now broken scribing skills (mainly fiery contingency). Broken sets that remove skill floor is certainly the issue with PVP. No class identity, just slot Tarnished NM or RA with VD and have 4 people drop ults. That's your PVP.

For solos...you have players that literally never move their health bars more than 1/4, but still nuke like they have every buff in the game. Saint and Seducer is a huge paint-point in PVP.

darvaria

Seems the only counter to ball groups is to roll DC or AD. Note you don't see any of them complaining about ball groups. With the population imbalance, you just PV Door the map, almost no fights.