Is it fair gameplay to use use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects?

acastanza_ESO · February 19

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Gina, no offense, but this is pants-on-head insane. Pulling through walls is clearly, and objectively bug abuse.
I personally, think RoA is generally fine, but this isn't.

ZOS's has a repeated, documented, track record, of apologism for this kind of bug abuse, and it really is completely unacceptable that it isn't taken seriously.

Katheriah · February 19

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

[snip]

[Edit to remove video]

A cinematic masterpiece.

RealLoveBVB · February 19

Funny thing about it is, that they tried to nerf it with the 2 second pull-delay. That opens the opportunity to exploit like that.

Changing it back to an instant pull is very welcome

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · February 19

Quoted post has been removed.

The thread title literally asks if it's fair gameplay to use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects. Gina explicitly stated that the set, as discussed in this thread, will not get you banned. The title itself includes solid objects—so why would this suddenly apply only to keep walls? Why wouldn’t any intentional pulling through any object be considered an exploit under that logic?

Getting pulled through obstacles significantly impacts PvP beyond just campaign scoring—it disrupts competitive integrity across multiple aspects of the game. Making arbitrary exceptions makes no sense, especially when the developers have stated this is intended behavior. You can't pick and choose which walls are okay and which aren't when the mechanics function identically in all scenarios.

Just_Attivi · February 19

Lol this mayhem is about to be an absolute mess

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · February 20

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

Just_Attivi · February 20

aw dang... went back to this to grab the link to that video, and I see the video was moderated away... making me look through my history, for shame!

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · February 20

Just_Attivi wrote: »

aw dang... went back to this to grab the link to that video, and I see the video was moderated away... making me look through my history, for shame!

Nope. We removed the video you're referencing because someone created it using Gina's voice and likeness without her permission, out of context, and with the intent to be misleading. That is not okay.

BetweenMidgets · February 20

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

Removing the set would be a great start. I always think "nothing they do can shock me anymore" but I'm *STILL* baffled at how this set made it through the ideation phase and all the way to live. Several YEARS later of ZoS "keeping a close eye on it" and they only somehow made it worse.

Just_Attivi · February 20

At least now there kind of needs to be some action on it. This mayhem is about to be full of trolls pulling people through the world, ruining the experience of everyone, which will undoubtedly flood the reporting system about it. maybe that like 8 page thread about rush of agony needing major adjustment will get some dev attention, too.

spartaxoxo · February 20

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

...but why wouldn't it be the case to tell people it's bannable, but only enforce the policy internally on those people who do it on purpose with video evidence? I don't understand the decision to make it open season for using this.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · February 20

https://youtu.be/pYJhLbBC6Jo

Basically what you are saying is you are NEVER going to ban anyone for using this as an exploit because it's impossible to know whether it is a mistake or intentional. A mistake can happen, but when the streamer who did it was doing it intentionally, 4 times within 2 minutes, and attempted to do it over 10 times, it's not a mistake. You have the strongest proof of intentionality because of the stream, and if you aren't going to ban that because that isn't proof, then nobody will ever get banned for this right?

Turtle_Bot · February 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

...but why wouldn't it be the case to tell people it's bannable, but only enforce the policy internally on those people who do it on purpose with video evidence? I don't understand the decision to make it open season for using this.

TL//DR:

It's too hard for ZOS to ensure that the person using the set is deliberately abusing the set for nefarious purposes, or that the video evidence being submitted is untampered and not being used to exploit the reporting system, and as such, just straight up banning anyone who uses the set is not feasible (especially considering somewhat recent events such as the PTS/live crossover, "AI moderation", weaponizing of reporting systems and many other issues that caught up a lot of innocent players in the resulting ban waves).

As seen (before it was removed) on this thread, and also on other recent threads too, some people will go to great lengths to produce video "evidence" (i.e. fake videos, clips out of context, etc.) just to mislead people/misrepresent the facts or further their own agenda, which only makes ZOS job much harder in determining if the set was truly being exploited or not and actually make an accurate decision on if someone was exploiting the set and should get banned or were just using it without trying to intentionally abuse it.

The best thing ZOS can do right now is just to say players can't get banned for using the set, while they try and figure out a permanent solution to the set and hopefully they can release a solution quickly.

It sucks because with how toxic the set is, ideally they would be able to just add a tag to the set making it against monsters only, but that takes time to implement on the live servers, mostly due to the requirements of going through approval processes from Sony (playstation) and Microsoft (xbox) that can take weeks if not months to go through (which doesn't help when whitestrakes mayhem starts in a few days) to have a patch approved for the console platforms. (It's the same process for any software that gets released for proprietary hardware that is external to the software company).

Turtle_Bot · February 20

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

Thanks for clarifying/following up on this, looking forward to hearing if a possible solution can be reached in time for Whitestrakes.

Muizer · February 20

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

I don't think I'm the only one who feels that sets keep being added with little regard for their impact on PvP. And then they need to be changed and there's a wave of complaints about how PvE players have to suffer for the needs of PvP. As long as there's no separation of PvE and PvP, really nothing that can be exploited in PvP should even make it into the game into the first place. As long as it does that shows PvP is not being taken seriously at all levels of development. You need to adopt a 'better safe than sorry' approach rather than keep piling in stuff and waiting for people with ill intents to reveal problems. Because due to slow response time, that approach seems to result in a state where PvP is continually struggling with exploits.

frogthroat · February 20

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

https://youtu.be/pYJhLbBC6Jo

Looks like using Shade is the key to replication here. Might be it happens also during mobile fights but to successfully replicate it on demand you need the Shade.

Maybe Undo would work, too?

But this is good info to communicate to ZOS if the Shade is a key element here. I'm sure they can fix it that Rush of Agony pull is cancelled if the player teleports using Shade or Undo.

Thumbless_Bot · February 20

I think there has been a lot of constructive feedback on this set. Hopefully zos listens when we get the update today.

People enjoy this set because it is different. We need different things in the game.

People are upset because the set doesn't apply cc immunity. Things should follow the rules... all things. Not just ROA, but all things.

People are upset because the set doesn't have a clear telegraph. When warden charm came out I dont think it had a clear telegraph. Once that was addressed it was fine. This set should have a much clearer telegraph.

People are upset because the pull is over-reaching. There are a lot of theories on why, desynchs etc. A few people have mentioned that this set should pull where it was activated. This jives very well with a clearer telegraph and would likely help with positional desynch issues.

People are upset because the set is too strong, ie it needs a much, much longer cooldown. Being able to control all of your opponents in a 12m range for an entire gcd every 8 seconds is very strong. I say entire gcd because you can time out the pull and block, if it was telegraphed better, but you still have to block, and that takes time. When you add damage to that it is, well, even stronger.

My personal preferences would be to make this set monsters only because I think it is absolutely cracked in pvp. But I hate pull sets and that's just me. Dark Convergence is now manageable but still a good set. Maybe if some or all of the above is taken into consideration ROA would be more balanced and manageable without it being relegated to controlling pve trash mobs.

Edit: this is a 100% pvp perspective and all of the above should be considered in light of not ruining the pve experience.

Orbital78 · February 20

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Thanks for the clarification, hopefully it can just get the Plaguebreak treatment but in reverse to keep it still useful in PVE. Unless the team can manage to fix the coding so it only pulls from the original spot or cap the pull radius to what the tooltip states (12 meters). I could be wrong but pretty sure I shouldn't be able to be pulled outside a keep from well within.

Teeba_Shei · February 20

Orbital78 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Thanks for the clarification, hopefully it can just get the Plaguebreak treatment but in reverse to keep it still useful in PVE. Unless the team can manage to fix the coding so it only pulls from the original spot or cap the pull radius to what the tooltip states (12 meters). I could be wrong but pretty sure I shouldn't be able to be pulled outside a keep from well within.

It only appears to be further than 12 meters due to latency. There isn't much of a fix that can be done for that.

Genfe · February 20

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, we wanted to provide some additional context and clarification. Firstly, intentionally pulling enemy player characters through solid objects in the game is not intended or desired behavior. The way the Rush of Agony item set currently works, there is a chance of the issue described in this thread happening on accident from normal use in PvP situations, especially where both the caster and target are very mobile. It's more likely that this happens on accident from normal use than deliberate exploit - and we have no way to prove one versus the other.

In situations like this where an issue is happening both on accident and intentionally, we cannot ban players for it. Too many "innocent" players will be caught in the cross fire. We are discussing options to fix the root problem, and will follow up tomorrow. Thank you all and have a good evening.

Are we getting an update on this today

xylena_lazarow · February 20

Half of Mayhem zone chat is explaining to new players what this one proc set is and what to do about it.

demonology89 · February 20

Yes where is the update on this set? We have an emp group on PSNA using this set and all players in that group range from 40k - 60k+ health. This is the worst PVP meta and Mayhem I can remember and I've been here since 2017.

Thumbless_Bot · February 20

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

show previous quotes

Orbital78 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

The use as being discussed in this thread will not get you banned. That said, we are taking a look at this set for some potential changes in the future.

Thanks for the clarification, hopefully it can just get the Plaguebreak treatment but in reverse to keep it still useful in PVE. Unless the team can manage to fix the coding so it only pulls from the original spot or cap the pull radius to what the tooltip states (12 meters). I could be wrong but pretty sure I shouldn't be able to be pulled outside a keep from well within.

It only appears to be further than 12 meters due to latency. There isn't much of a fix that can be done for that.

Sure there is. You can choose not to put things in the game that cannot operate / function properly or as intended within the limitations of the tech stack.

It's like putting a tow hitch on an compact car and expecting it to tow 2 tons of stuff uphill.

Just don't do that.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · February 20

As a quick update, we're still gathering info for the follow-up post we mentioned we'd share today. We'll have something for you all tomorrow. Thank you for the patience.

Lags · February 21

Orbital78 wrote: »

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

Asking for a friend who may or may not be planning out cheese sets for the large scale event. There was a recent post highlighting it along with other things: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673393/official-stream-team-member-exploiting-and-being-offensive-toward-viewers#latest - I asked there too but it is a mess of topics over there and thought it would be better to start a new thread for clarification.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Im not sure how it wouldnt be ok. They need to be clear with stuff like this. there is a huge difference between pulling someone through a tree, rock, or pillar, that you are fighting around. Versus pulling someone like into a keep or somthing.

Even if you were to pull someone off the bridge, wardens have been doing that for years. I just dont see the issue unless you are pulling someone into a keep or something.

And if they say that you cant then they are effectively saying dont fight near a tree if you're running rush, because you will inevitably pull someone through it. These are very fast paced engagements. People shouldnt have to be like "oh im too close to the tree, better run out into the field before i pull these guys". They'll just end up dead.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · February 21

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

TechMaybeHic · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

It's a pve earned set. Make it apply to monsters and let pveers have it as is. Easy peasy

Personofsecrets · February 21

One solution that could work is making Rush of Agony not pull players.

Scytex01 · February 21

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I am not sure if this caught your attention but the issue you describe is not only from Rush of Agony or other "pull" sets but also from Knockbacks and Knockups like Meteor and Templar Aedric Spear to mention some examples.
What my guild and multiple other guilds have realized as that the described behaviour only happens when the person does not break free fast enough.
Therefore I do not think changing the location of the Pull is gonna change anything to be completely honest..

Greetings Scy

sans-culottes · February 21

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone. We’ve had some conversations yesterday about this discussion, the Rush of Agony set, and the more recent community concerns and reports. This also included consideration for the overall feedback since we released the set.

To give a little background, all movement-type actions and skills, including pulls, have the potential to be impacted by variables including character movement speed and position, high ping, the amount of data being sent between the server and the client, and anything that negatively impacts server and client latency (including attacks by bad actors). What this can result in with any pull-type action or skill, not just the Rush of Agony set pull, is cases where the client thinks the target is in one spot and the server thinks it’s in another. One of the reasons this has been surfacing more with Rush of Agony is due to how popular the set is – more people using the set creates more opportunities for the pull to be impacted.

We have some work in progress that aims to reduce the overall amount of data being sent back and forth between the client and server, investigations into some known crashes related to player bonuses, and additional logging that will help us better identify crash and disconnect causes.

For the Rush of Agony set, specifically, we are looking at a few options to help reduce the chances of the current issue where some player characters are getting into a bad state after being a target of the pull. One possible solution we are considering is having the pull bring the target player back to a specific location instead of to the source player. This will decrease the amount of movement-related data the client needs to send to the server, though it could still happen. This is still in discussion as a potential option and not locked in. We're also discussing options to reduce the overall frequency at which a player could be pulled by this set.

These changes require some dev and engineering work to be done and tested, so realistically we are looking at Update 46 timing at the earliest. Thank you for all the input and suggestions related to this.

It’s great that this problematic set is being addressed—and so promptly. However, why aren’t other problematic areas—e.g., the many, many issues facing the Necromancer class—being ignored by the devs? Disappointing.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin, the problems reported here received prompt, clear responses.