Overland Content Feedback Thread

Muizer · February 12

I don't really want rewards as such. I would want some compensation for the extra time I'll be taking in overland due to the higher difficulty. I.e. I would not want to be worse off because of it.

disky · February 12

TaSheen wrote: »

@disky - as one who doesn't want change, I still think extra cosmetics or something should be available for those who want harder overland.

I guarantee you I won't miss whatever is added for y'all. I'll just be happy if what I like about overland as it is now isn't taken away from me - because if it is, I simply won't play ESO any more....

Maybe not you, TaSheen, but I guarantee there will be a whole bunch of people complaining about it if it did happen.

sans-culottes · February 12

disky wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@disky - as one who doesn't want change, I still think extra cosmetics or something should be available for those who want harder overland.

I guarantee you I won't miss whatever is added for y'all. I'll just be happy if what I like about overland as it is now isn't taken away from me - because if it is, I simply won't play ESO any more....

Maybe not you, TaSheen, but I guarantee there will be a whole bunch of people complaining about it if it did happen.

They’ll complain about it regardless, though.

SilverBride · February 12

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

sans-culottes · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

But you’re opposed to any changes anyway. I disagree with this 100% and, if anything, think this is missing the point entirely. It’s also misrepresenting what those of us in favor of this have said.

If you’re taking more of a risk, then there should be more rewards. It’s fine that you ascribe difficulty for its own sake as the reward or something, but I think that’s not treating what others have said honestly.

SilverBride · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

But you’re opposed to any changes anyway. I disagree with this 100% and, if anything, think this is missing the point entirely. It’s also misrepresenting what those of us in favor of this have said.

I strongly feel that the ONLY relaxing part of ESO should not be taken away from those of us that enjoy this type of content. I find it unreasonable for players to expect ALL content to be tweaked to THEIR personal preference. And I certainly don't think they should be rewarded for making other player's game less enjoyable.

I used to support optional changes just as a gesture of good faith. But the longer this goes on the less I am inclined to support any of it.

sans-culottes · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

But you’re opposed to any changes anyway. I disagree with this 100% and, if anything, think this is missing the point entirely. It’s also misrepresenting what those of us in favor of this have said.

I strongly feel that the ONLY relaxing part of ESO should not be taken away from those of us that enjoy this type of content. I find it unreasonable for players to expect ALL content to be tweaked to THEIR personal preference. And I certainly don't think they should be rewarded for making other player's game less enjoyable.

I used to support optional changes just as a gesture of good faith. But the longer this goes on the less I am inclined to support any of it.

But if it’s an optional toggle, as many have suggested and have pointed to existing in other, similar games, then this entire perspective collapses. The nice thing about cosmetics, as opposed to gear, is that they wouldn’t affect gameplay.

That the current difficulty level is relaxing to you is fine—great. It also makes the game incredibly dull to many others. Given that there’s precedence for, e.g., enhanced rewards in veteran dungeons and trials, applying a similar concept to a veteran overland would make sense. Given that certain players would say this would unfairly advantage those other players, though, cosmetic items—things that don’t affect gameplay—are a sensible option and part of why LotRO did this very thing quite well.

The best part? It didn’t affect anyone seeking that easier gameplay of the ”normal” mode. Incentivizing it would mean more people would participate, which is to say would play, which is to say might just pay.

spartaxoxo · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

If you’re taking more of a risk, then there should be more rewards. It’s fine that you ascribe difficulty for its own sake as the reward or something, but I think that’s not treating what others have said honestly.

Some people would be angry if players had an equal experience to them, with the basic functionality of questing remaining in tact, let alone anything extra. The devs alluded to this, I personally think, when they discussed the reward problem. They never really elaborate why "how do you incentivize it," is a problem. I used to think it's because it's one and done so obviously you do not want to lock people out of rewards. But now I think there's at least also the worry that some players won't be happy if they do anything at all

SilverBride · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

But you’re opposed to any changes anyway. I disagree with this 100% and, if anything, think this is missing the point entirely. It’s also misrepresenting what those of us in favor of this have said.

I strongly feel that the ONLY relaxing part of ESO should not be taken away from those of us that enjoy this type of content. I find it unreasonable for players to expect ALL content to be tweaked to THEIR personal preference. And I certainly don't think they should be rewarded for making other player's game less enjoyable.

I used to support optional changes just as a gesture of good faith. But the longer this goes on the less I am inclined to support any of it.

But if it’s an optional toggle, as many have suggested and have pointed to existing in other, similar games, then this entire perspective collapses. The nice thing about cosmetics, as opposed to gear, is that they wouldn’t affect gameplay.

It's bad enough that certain groups of players get what they want, while those that can no longer defeat story bosses don't get anything to help them complete the zone stories again. Then they want extra rewards that those other players will never be able to get, just for getting something they asked for. No.

sans-culottes · February 12

Why? Isn’t what you’re asking for—no changes in spite of the expressed intentions of the devs—asking them to cater to a specific audience?

PS. I should add that suggesting this in the context of a veteran toggle provides parity with other areas of the game. It’s a shame that some people can’t complete everything. I know some folks who are disappointed that they don’t have Worm Wizard personalities, for instance. But that’s how games work.

SilverBride · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

Why? Isn’t what you’re asking for—no changes in spite of the expressed intentions of the devs—asking them to cater to a specific audience?

As I have stated multiple times in this thread, I had been supporting optional changes. But I no longer feel inclined to if it includes rewards that others will be excluded from.

The original reasons for wanting more difficulty was immersion, and so story bosses wouldn't be defeated so quickly. Well that has happened with these multiple immune phases and now we hear "That isn't what we asked for."

Now they want extra rewards because more difficult enemies will take longer to kill. That's what was asked for.

sans-culottes · February 12

I don’t understand that sentiment, though. There are lots of rewards—ones that are purely cosmetic—that already follow this schema. Worm Wizard, my example, is just one of many instances.

spartaxoxo · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

I don’t understand that sentiment, though. There are lots of rewards—ones that are purely cosmetic—that already follow this schema. Worm Wizard, my example, is just one of many instances.

I get the extra rewards if tied to quest content because that's one and done. So, unlike Worm Wizard, they couldn't just come back later when they're ready.

I don't understand not wanting people to get things like exp that everyone gets, just to make sure the quests have the same functionality as they do on normal. But in this thread, I have seen even that objected to at one point. I'm not going to name anyone in particular, just saying it's feedback I have seen about rewards for this feature.

SilverBride · February 12

Why should players get extra experience when they asked for enemies to be more difficult, knowing that this would make them take longer to defeat, which is one of the reasons given for wanting more difficulty in the first place? So fights aren't over so fast.

If a player is only wanting quick experience they can still get that on normal.

sans-culottes · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Why? Isn’t what you’re asking for—no changes in spite of the expressed intentions of the devs—asking them to cater to a specific audience?

As I have stated multiple times in this thread, I had been supporting optional changes. But I no longer feel inclined to if it includes rewards that others will be excluded from.

The original reasons for wanting more difficulty was immersion, and so story bosses wouldn't be defeated so quickly. Well that has happened with these multiple immune phases and now we hear "That isn't what we asked for."

Now they want extra rewards because more difficult enemies will take longer to kill. That's what was asked for.

But this isn’t what those of us who’ve asked for this wanted—like, at all. The world boss design has been a failure, in large part due to the very mechanics you mention. That’s not difficulty; that’s tedium. It doesn’t add anything thoughtful to the gameplay beyond prolonging it—not even close to the same thing.

You keep coming back to the story—set that aside. The story isn’t part of this discussion. This particular suggestion elides that problem, so it’s not really relevant. A “veteran” toggle would negate this entirely, as would purely cosmetic rewards instead of something that affects gameplay.

The Worm Wizard example’s actually something I’m going to come back to. I think there’s some misunderstanding, because half of the fun from those of us in favor of such a mode comes from good old fashioned MMORPG grinding. Is this for everyone? No. But tying veteran overland “rewards”—purely cosmetic ones—to achievements, etc. would be very much in keeping with the current design.

I mentioned previously too iterating on the failed Cadwell’s X model. Consider: Once you’ve completed a zone story, etc. on one character, you can then opt in to make the zone harder—not somehow redo it or whatever. Or maybe you would! But this is just me spitballing. Honestly, talk about boring. I am less inclined to repeat the same quests over and over again. Instead, this becomes kind of a new challenge mode.

SilverBride wrote: »

Why should players get extra experience when they asked for enemies to be more difficult, knowing that this would make them take longer to defeat, which is one of the reasons given for wanting more difficulty in the first place? So fights aren't over so fast.

If a player is only wanting quick experience they can still get that on normal.

But that’s not what anyone has said. It’s not very fair to cite one part of a larger discussion as somehow encompassing the whole of it.

Also, more to the point, why SHOULDN’T they get more, say, experience? It’s a bit odd to suggest that an increase in difficulty should in no way translate to…anything else, as a result. Once again, it seems like part of the goal should be to make something that’s going to keep people playing.

Blackbird_V · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Why? Isn’t what you’re asking for—no changes in spite of the expressed intentions of the devs—asking them to cater to a specific audience?

As I have stated multiple times in this thread, I had been supporting optional changes. But I no longer feel inclined to if it includes rewards that others will be excluded from.[/b]

Why should it matter? Life is unfair. The whole game has rewards locked behind Veteran/Harder content. If you cannot do the content, then you do not deserve the reward. If you don't reward players for harder play, but give them out in an easy overland, then that's just not fair, is it?

Achieving goals that are harder should be rewarded. Nearly every game works like this, because it makes sense to. It sounds as if you just don't want to commit to doing harder overland, and want us who do to not get extra rewards.

spartaxoxo · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

Why should players get extra experience when they asked for enemies to be more difficult, knowing that this would make them take longer to defeat, which is one of the reasons given for wanting more difficulty in the first place? So fights aren't over so fast.

If a player is only wanting quick experience they can still get that on normal.

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience. Overland quests are specifically for leveling and story. Why should a player have to break the game to enjoy a story? Why should vet players have an inferior experience to people playing on normal?

I don't think picking a difficulty should effect anything but enjoyment, positively or negatively.

SilverBride · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

spartaxoxo · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

They'd both play 1 hour and get the same amount of exp. But it would be easier for the person on normal to grind exp by completing quests faster.

SilverBride · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

Faster, but only half as much experience.

I hope they never do something so unfair.

Blackbird_V · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

Faster, but only half as much experience.

I hope they never do something so unfair.

That's life for ya.

sans-culottes · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

Faster, but only half as much experience.

I hope they never do something so unfair.

This would be the opposite of unfair.

PS. Why does this bother you when you’ve previously asked for them to make an item to cut your xp gain precisely because you want leveling to take longer—should one seek it? In fact, this would even incorporate your idea! Or, well, it would if it were actually somehow disadvantaging “normal” players I this hypothetical model.

spartaxoxo · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

Faster, but only half as much experience.

I hope they never do something so unfair.

It's not half as much experience if both players receive the same experience over the same amount of playtime. I don't think it's unfair at all. Under such a system you'd actually be able to power level way faster on normal because of the speed.

Quick, easy, and in large quantities resulting in 20000 exp over an hour of playtime

Versus slow, difficult, but spikey resulting in 20000 exp over an hour of playtime

That's a matter of taste.

Blackbird_V · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not extra experience. It is the same experience.

No, it isn't and this is why.

Let's say that:
Normal enemies take 10 seconds to kill and give 100 experience.
Difficult enemies take 20 seconds to kill and give 200 experience.

Would that be fair because it appears to make the time to experience ratio even? At first glance it may seem so, but not when we consider this.

Let's say that both the normal and difficult zones have 100 enemies.
The player on normal would kill 100 enemies, at 100 experience each, for a total of 10,000 experience gained.
The player on difficult zone would kill 100 enemies, at 200 experience each, for a total of 20,000 experience gained.

This would give those who choose difficulty twice the experience for clearing the same zone with the same amount of enemies as those on normal. This is not even.

The one on normal would be done in half the time and already on the next quest by the time the one on vet finished. They would likely still gain exp faster because of this.

Faster, but only half as much experience.

I hope they never do something so unfair.

This would be the opposite of unfair.

PS. Why does this bother you when you’ve previously asked for them to make an item to cut your xp gain precisely because you want leveling to take longer—should one seek it? In fact, this would even incorporate your idea!

Yeah it's completely fair as we have to use more than 13 brain cells to do stuff in Veteran Overland. Just like IRL, a manager vs a shelf stacker at your local Tesco will pay more because more time and effort is needed.

This isn't even an argument to be had, or a hill to die on. Extra work/effort should always be rewarded.

SilverBride · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's not half as much experience if both players receive the same experience over the same amount of playtime. I don't think it's unfair at all. Under such a system you'd actually be able to power level way faster on normal because of the speed.

What does wanting more difficulty in overland have to do with power levelling? I thought it was for immersion, and for enemies and story bosses not to be defeated so quickly?

If a zone only has 100 enemies, and those choosing difficulty get twice the experience per enemy, then they need to reduce the amount of enemies in difficult overland to 50. This would then be the same amount of time for both normal and difficult overland to clear a zone, and for the same total experience. That would be fair and even.

SilverBride · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

Why does this bother you when you’ve previously asked for them to make an item to cut your xp gain precisely because you want leveling to take longer

All I did in that other thread was relate the changes I made in my own leveling to slow it down, so others that like to level more slowly could try that themselves. I found a way to adapt how I play to achieve my goal.

But that is not the topic of this thread.

spartaxoxo · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's not half as much experience if both players receive the same experience over the same amount of playtime. I don't think it's unfair at all. Under such a system you'd actually be able to power level way faster on normal because of the speed.

What does wanting more difficulty in overland have to do with power levelling? I thought it was for immersion, and for enemies and story bosses not to be defeated so quickly?

If a zone only has 100 enemies, and those choosing difficulty get twice the experience per enemy, then they need to reduce the amount of enemies in difficult overland to 50. This would then be the same amount of time for both normal and difficult overland to clear a zone, and for the same total experience. That would be fair and even.

They'd have to alter the zone for that or put vet players in a separate instance. The point of the slider is compromise with people who prefer normal so that vet players are available to help with things like world bosses or new players. So that zones feel alive.

The point of bringing up power leveling is because normal mode players would still have the advantage because at the rate they can kill things it is easy to power level in overland areas and that would not be possible for vets.

Normal would actually get more exp if they wanted it. If they didn't, that's fine.

We cannot ignore the that enemies respawn and that quests and kills would be completed faster when discussing whether it would be unfair to normal mode players.

They'd get the same exact exp over the same time and unlike vets could power level. They would not be at an exp disadvantage.

SilverBride · February 12

Maybe they should create a separate instance. Then players could be placed with other like minded players and it would probably cut down on the friction that is almost guaranteed to arise if the groups are kept together.

Muizer · February 12

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

That amounts to saying that in order to enjoy the game as much as you do, those who want higher difficulty should pay a price with longer grinds. After all, harder overland is slower overland. Why, do you think that is fair?

SilverBride · February 12

Players ASKED for longer grinds. They stated that enemies being defeated too fast ruined their immersion. Why should they get extra rewards for getting exactly what they asked for?