Overland Content Feedback Thread

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

Players ASKED for longer grinds. They stated that enemies being defeated too fast ruined their immersion. Why should they get extra rewards for getting exactly what they asked for?

Of course not. We ask for an equally long grind composed of more interesting encounters. And you're making it sound as if enjoying the game as much as you do is somehow a privilege and that it is only right it should cost us something. That makes no sense.

SilverBride

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players ASKED for longer grinds. They stated that enemies being defeated too fast ruined their immersion. Why should they get extra rewards for getting exactly what they asked for?

Of course not. We ask for an equally long grind composed of more interesting encounters. And you're making it sound as if enjoying the game as much as you do is somehow a privilege and that it is only right it should cost us something. That makes no sense.

More interesting encounters are going to take longer to defeat the enemy. And asking for fights that aren't over in a couple of seconds has been asked for many times.

VoxAdActa

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am against any extra rewards. The immersion is the reason given and that is all the reward required.

That amounts to saying that in order to enjoy the game as much as you do, those who want higher difficulty should pay a price with longer grinds. After all, harder overland is slower overland. Why, do you think that is fair?

Do you want a higher difficulty, or not? If you want it, you wouldn't need a "reward" for playing the game the way you claim you want to.

Unless you just want the reward, and the harder game mode is what you're willing to trade for it?

spartaxoxo

I don't think players need to specifically request that fixes don't break the basic gameplay function of a system. And I don't think asking to get the same gameplay experience as everyone else is asking for anything extra.

Surgee

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I was ready to settle for a debuff memento but anything beyond that would be much appreciated. I've been playing a lot of The Lord of the Rings Online recently and that's a game that has a landscape difficulty system that un-trivialized a lot of content in the game and made it extremely fun.
https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Landscape_Difficulty

The landscape difficulty slider in that game is accomplished with just a debuff fyi. When I personally say debuff slider, I'm talking about something along the lines of that thing. I agree it seems perfect for this game and I also note that it is already similar to how they do things in the single player games.

To be honest the foundation is there to be implemented in ESO as well since they already have a scaling algorithm as you level up. Hearing about this months ago led me to discussing a shrine that would have different levels of difficulty you could select. Overall I'm still hoping something like this gets implemented as it would help players enjoy the game more at their own pace.

Dahveed wrote: »

Seraph_69 wrote: »

Cant read all 274 pages of this thread but ZOS: please see Lord of the Rings Online. An ancient game that has implemented a slider system that can be toggled on or off at will by players to increase or decrease landscape difficulty as required.

It has NO EFFECT on rewards, other than when players want more of a challenge when doing overland zones / quest packs / whatever they are called here. There is some small cosmetics you can work towards by playing harder landscape difficulty but no need to even implement that in ESO.

I personally have left the game due to boredom several times because I get excited to play the new DLC's as they come out and then I just stomp on everything. No difficulty = no dopamine = no ESO+ payments from me.

This game has masses of content that could me made more fun with a simple toggle for those that want it. If there is one thing ZOS should consider to retain players, it is this.

The fact that they succeeded in implementing a slider with NO ADDITIONAL REWARDS (other than cosmetics as you say) speaks volumes IMO.

I DO NOT WANT MORE STUFF. One of my criticisms of modern games is that they absolutely bombard us with "stuff", you can't kill a fricken mudcrab without loot spewing out of it like a pinata.

Treasure chests everywhere, "mini-bosses" everywhere, "enemies" literally everywhere, daily login rewards, events, hireling junk, idiotic quest rewards ("oh thanks for getting my cat out of that tree, here is a full set of plate mail armour that in medieval times would take 4 years of a peasant's salary to buy").

No, I don't want more stuff. Ideally if I could make a brand new "hard mode" server to my liking, I would literally remove about 90% of all the "stuff" so that finding loot actually feels like something.

No they didn't. They implemented it, but hardly anyone uses it. People try it and drop it almost immediately because in a shared and competitive world it makes no sense. People level up and upgrade gear to be stronger than others. It's even worse when you fight a monster with your high difficulty and all legendary gear, and some noob in underwear comes over and kills it in 1 hit. That's not only immersion breaking, but fun breaking. This is not the way to fix the issue and it's mostly wanted by people who do not want to use it.

VoxAdActa

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players need to specifically request that fixes don't break the basic gameplay function of a system. And I don't think asking to get the same gameplay experience as everyone else is asking for anything extra.

"The same gameplay experience as everyone else" is what the overland is now. By asking for a more difficult overland, toggled or otherwise, you're asking for a necessarily different gameplay experience from everyone else.

But if it requires extra rewards to incentivize you to use this different gameplay experience, how much do you actually want the different gameplay experience?

spartaxoxo

VoxAdActa wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players need to specifically request that fixes don't break the basic gameplay function of a system. And I don't think asking to get the same gameplay experience as everyone else is asking for anything extra.

"The same gameplay experience as everyone else" is what the overland is now. By asking for a more difficult overland, toggled or otherwise, you're asking for a necessarily different gameplay experience from everyone else.

But if it requires extra rewards to incentivize you to use this different gameplay experience, how much do you actually want the different gameplay experience?

It's not extra rewards to receive the same total rewards as when in normal.

The gameplay function of overland is it is for leveling and story. Vets don't have the same experience because the game plays different for people who are at a low power level versus a high one.

nbksaske

I've seen a lot of posts say "a slider" but how would that even work? If two people are at the same world boss and ones on, the other is off.. does player one see a different health bar than player two for example?
Either way, it will be interesting to see how ZOS implements this so both sides are happy.

VoxAdActa

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's not extra rewards to receive the same total rewards as when in normal.

Your reward is a "more fun" gameplay experience.

Right?

It is more fun, right?

colossalvoids

Surgee wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I was ready to settle for a debuff memento but anything beyond that would be much appreciated. I've been playing a lot of The Lord of the Rings Online recently and that's a game that has a landscape difficulty system that un-trivialized a lot of content in the game and made it extremely fun.
https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Landscape_Difficulty

The landscape difficulty slider in that game is accomplished with just a debuff fyi. When I personally say debuff slider, I'm talking about something along the lines of that thing. I agree it seems perfect for this game and I also note that it is already similar to how they do things in the single player games.

To be honest the foundation is there to be implemented in ESO as well since they already have a scaling algorithm as you level up. Hearing about this months ago led me to discussing a shrine that would have different levels of difficulty you could select. Overall I'm still hoping something like this gets implemented as it would help players enjoy the game more at their own pace.

Dahveed wrote: »

Seraph_69 wrote: »

Cant read all 274 pages of this thread but ZOS: please see Lord of the Rings Online. An ancient game that has implemented a slider system that can be toggled on or off at will by players to increase or decrease landscape difficulty as required.

It has NO EFFECT on rewards, other than when players want more of a challenge when doing overland zones / quest packs / whatever they are called here. There is some small cosmetics you can work towards by playing harder landscape difficulty but no need to even implement that in ESO.

I personally have left the game due to boredom several times because I get excited to play the new DLC's as they come out and then I just stomp on everything. No difficulty = no dopamine = no ESO+ payments from me.

This game has masses of content that could me made more fun with a simple toggle for those that want it. If there is one thing ZOS should consider to retain players, it is this.

The fact that they succeeded in implementing a slider with NO ADDITIONAL REWARDS (other than cosmetics as you say) speaks volumes IMO.

I DO NOT WANT MORE STUFF. One of my criticisms of modern games is that they absolutely bombard us with "stuff", you can't kill a fricken mudcrab without loot spewing out of it like a pinata.

Treasure chests everywhere, "mini-bosses" everywhere, "enemies" literally everywhere, daily login rewards, events, hireling junk, idiotic quest rewards ("oh thanks for getting my cat out of that tree, here is a full set of plate mail armour that in medieval times would take 4 years of a peasant's salary to buy").

No, I don't want more stuff. Ideally if I could make a brand new "hard mode" server to my liking, I would literally remove about 90% of all the "stuff" so that finding loot actually feels like something.

This is not the way to fix the issue and it's mostly wanted by people who do not want to use it.

That what I also think about simple self debuffs and sliders personally. But for me it also depends on an access to it, I'd take anything if that's a base game experience and roll with what we have, and if that's some new ESO plus feature it surely needs to be way, way more fleshed out and complex overall.

MorganaLaVey

Telling new players they need two or more times longer to level up if they want to play in immersive difficulity is pretty messed up. I also met a lot of players who have trouble to come up with the gold to feed the horses every day as is.
Overland already gives so few rewards, if you cut them in half, you might just take them out entirely.
In the meantime other players make 1.000.000.000 gold by flipping items or selling crowns.
I realy dont see anything unfair about same reward/ hour.

Muizer

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Do you want a higher difficulty, or not? If you want it, you wouldn't need a "reward" for playing the game the way you claim you want to. Unless you just want the reward, and the harder game mode is what you're willing to trade for it?

I am personally not arguing for any kind of exclusive rewards. I'd just want a slight modifier to the existing loot and drop chances to compensate for extra time spent. As I said before, if I enjoy the game on a higher difficulty as much as you do at a lower one, why should I be punished with a longer grind for the same items?

The answer most definitely cannot be "because you're already rewarded with a better experience" The idea that the experience of playing the game is a reward in the same category as in-game items received is tremendously flawed. Just try applying that to things that are already in the game: "why should the antiquities system reward stuff if you're already rewarded by the experience of finding them and digging them up?" "Why do veteran dungeons award monster sets when the players are already rewarded with the higher difficulty they crave?" Or do you suggest we remove those kinds of rewards for the sake of fairness?

BananaBender

Right now veteran dungeons give better rewards than normal dungeons, veteran trials give better rewards than normal, veteran arenas give better rewards than normal, I just don't see why it would be absurd to think that veteran overland would give better rewards than normal. I wont be doing the content for the rewards unless they implement perfected pieces so I don't really care one way or another, it would just be extremely strange for them to stray from their pattern of rewarding people for doing harder content.

spartaxoxo

nbksaske wrote: »

I've seen a lot of posts say "a slider" but how would that even work? If two people are at the same world boss and ones on, the other is off.. does player one see a different health bar than player two for example?
Either way, it will be interesting to see how ZOS implements this so both sides are happy.

You're just debuffed. The one not using it will be the same as always. The one using it will be hit harder.

Surgee

nbksaske wrote: »

I've seen a lot of posts say "a slider" but how would that even work? If two people are at the same world boss and ones on, the other is off.. does player one see a different health bar than player two for example?
Either way, it will be interesting to see how ZOS implements this so both sides are happy.

It wouldn't work. People quote LOTRO where it was implemented and absolutely did not work. It was just there, people tried it and abandoned it, even though LOTRO is much less competitive than ESO. It's mostly wanted by people who don't want to use it. It absolutely makes no sense in an MMO such as ESO.

And to answer your question more precisely, the slider works like a debuff, making your character weaker. It's equivalent to going naked. So when you put your slider up to make your difficulty higher and you're having your "epic" battle, some noob using green staff and light attacks will kill your target in a second, because his slider is all the way down. By the way, you both get the same reward. There's absolutely no point to use and no one would. The vocal group here asking for a slider don't want to use it because they prefer the way it is now, but wants it to be w solution for the ones who want harder difficulty.

The only and only solutions that would work are:
1. Slightly increase the difficulty and see how it goes (the game is so awfully easy there's plenty of YouTube videos saying how it ruins the game..so yea)
2. Introduce a veteran instance of zones with significantly better rewards, to make it on par with difficulty. (Nobody will want to play harder in a competitive MMO without a worthy reward. No rewarding experience will lead to giant backlash)

spartaxoxo

Surgee wrote: »

nbksaske wrote: »

I've seen a lot of posts say "a slider" but how would that even work? If two people are at the same world boss and ones on, the other is off.. does player one see a different health bar than player two for example?
Either way, it will be interesting to see how ZOS implements this so both sides are happy.

It wouldn't work. People quote LOTRO where it was implemented and absolutely did not work. It was just there, people tried it and abandoned it, even though LOTRO is much less competitive than ESO. It's mostly wanted by people who don't want to use it. It absolutely makes no sense in an MMO such as ESO.

I saw nearly universal praise for it on social media, gaming sites, etc and the devs of that game saw such high praise and usage for it that they expanded the servers it was used on.

I would use it.

Edited to add

https://massivelyop.com/2023/08/26/lotro-legendarium-lotros-higher-difficulties-are-a-breath-of-fresh-air/


This game even gets called out as too easy in this article by someone who loved the slider but prefers a smaller challenge.

So, I don't see how it's a failure in that game or why it would not be a good fit for this one. The single player Elder Scrolls games use one.

SilverBride

Surgee wrote: »

The only and only solutions that would work are:
1. Slightly increase the difficulty and see how it goes (the game is so awfully easy there's plenty of YouTube videos saying how it ruins the game..so yea)
2. Introduce a veteran instance of zones with significantly better rewards, to make it on par with difficulty. (Nobody will want to play harder in a competitive MMO without a worthy reward. No rewarding experience will lead to giant backlash)

3. Leave overland just as it is.

It has been working this way for over 8 years now and there is no need to change it. No player is going to love all the content in any game, and we can't expect everything to be tweaked to our own personal preferences.


4. Create veteran servers.

Allow those that want more difficulty to move their characters over to these servers so players won't lose their current progress. No slider or toggle or debuff needed, everyone would be on the same playing field, and they can have increased rewards without it making others feel excluded.

spartaxoxo

This game does not work on different servers. That is not an option. They designed the instancing system to avoid separate servers with different settings. So, that it could expand or contract as is needed to ensure a good population of players in an instance.

spartaxoxo

Snipped for brevity

Muizer wrote: »

I am personally not arguing for any kind of exclusive rewards. I'd just want a slight modifier to the existing loot and drop chances to compensate for extra time spent. As I said before, if I enjoy the game on a higher difficulty as much as you do at a lower one, why should I be punished with a longer grind for the same items?

Well said. It's funny because equal exp or the drop chances thing is already a compromise for those that don't wish to use the landscape slider. The devs normally have the same exp/drop chances but give exclusive titles, better quality drops, and exclusive cosmetics for harder content to offset the extra time and effort it takes.

But I guess the expression is true sometimes. If you give an inch, others want a mile.

Some players don't want vet players to have an equally rewarding experience. They want vet players to be punished for wanting a more immersive experience. This is why even when the rewards would be equal and not exclusive, it would still be unfair somehow.

Luckily, the devs already make all content rewarding to use and doesn't punish players for playing the way they'd like to play. So, I don't see that changing.

SilverBride

The game already has separate megaservers. Veteran megaservers would just be another that works the same way as the current ones, and everyone could get the experience they want without it affecting any other players.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

The game already has separate megaservers. Veteran megaservers would just be another that works the same way as the current ones, and everyone could get the experience they want without it affecting any other players.

They have it by region because of logistics, not by different settings.

Edit

What server are you on?

That was a question that, according to Elder Scrolls Online game director (and longtime online game designer) Matt Firor, defined a generation of massively-multiplayer online role-playing games.

It's a byproduct of so many MMORPGs asking players to choose a server for their character to call home before they start playing, a question that Firor says is now becoming obsolete thanks to the advancing pace of online game tech.


"We have an interesting server structure in ESO that is unique in this generation of online game," Firor said while Gamasutra editors tried to acquit themselves gracefuly in a livestream of the recently-released Elder Scrolls Online: Morrowind. "What we do is we have what we call megaservers, where we instance all of our zones."

Firor says the ESO dev team made the call early on to chase the dream of the "megaservers", architecting the game so that players can create characters and then log into either the North American or European version -- and that's it.


"Once you're on the North American server, you neve pick another server," continued Firor. "The game kinda figures out how many instances of each zone to spin up, and which one to put you in....those are the kind of cool things that are happening behind the scenes, in game development, where it takes all of the decision-making out of the player's hands."

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/-i-elder-scrolls-online-i-dev-speaks-to-the-power-of-megaservers-in-mmo-game-design

Edited to Add 2

It is not possible for Customer Support, to transfer characters, gear, gold, crowns or items, between different accounts, servers, or platforms.

We have not built, and do not plan to build, the capability to move individual characters from platform to platform. We were only able to move characters in bulk for consoles once on June 1st, 2015 because the database tables we copied to were brand new (empty). Now that the database tables are filled with other data, the techniques we used before no longer work.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/#en/answer/25807

Surgee

SilverBride wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

The only and only solutions that would work are:
1. Slightly increase the difficulty and see how it goes (the game is so awfully easy there's plenty of YouTube videos saying how it ruins the game..so yea)
2. Introduce a veteran instance of zones with significantly better rewards, to make it on par with difficulty. (Nobody will want to play harder in a competitive MMO without a worthy reward. No rewarding experience will lead to giant backlash)

3. Leave overland just as it is.

It has been working this way for over 8 years now and there is no need to change it. No player is going to love all the content in any game, and we can't expect everything to be tweaked to our own personal preferences.


4. Create veteran servers.

Allow those that want more difficulty to move their characters over to these servers so players won't lose their current progress. No slider or toggle or debuff needed, everyone would be on the same playing field, and they can have increased rewards without it making others feel excluded.

3. This is absolutely false. Overland was made easier and players were made tons stronger. Overland did change A LOT.

4. That's just silly. There's only mega server in ESO and for a good reason. You can't simply create a new server. Even if they'd completely restructure the game to split it into servers it introduced tons of problems. Veteran instance of a zone though is very much possible.

TaSheen

@spartaxoxo - but in this case, a veteran server WOULD BE an empty database....

I don't think they'll go that route, but there's no reason it wouldn't work.

spartaxoxo

TaSheen wrote: »

@spartaxoxo - but in this case, a veteran server WOULD BE an empty database....

I don't think they'll go that route, but there's no reason it wouldn't work.

True about it being empty. The other, much more important reason it wouldn't work is the game is explicitly designed to keep people together that are playing in the same region. They specifically created the mega server structure to facilitate that. The game reads how many people are playing at a time and spins up the necessary number of instances to ensure a good playing experience for the number of people in that population.

They don't have different servers (outside of two regions with the same hardware setups). They have one mega server in each region per platform.

They'd have to completely change the server structure to do it. They aren't going to do that just because someone will get mad they get half as much exp as someone who played the game for twice as long, or whatever it is the rewards turn out to be.

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@spartaxoxo - but in this case, a veteran server WOULD BE an empty database....

I don't think they'll go that route, but there's no reason it wouldn't work.

True about it being empty. The other, much more important reason it wouldn't work is the game is explicitly designed to keep people together that are playing in the same region. They specifically created the mega server structure to facilitate that. The game reads how many people are playing at a time and spins up the necessary number of instances to ensure a good playing experience for the number of people in that population.

They don't have different servers (outside of two regions with the same hardware setups). They have one mega server in each region.

They might decide on a totally different direction now. It's not unheard of that devs would do that - in fact, these devs time and again have said "we won't do that".... and then they have done that.... (not with reference to overland difficulty, just other things over time).

spartaxoxo

TaSheen wrote: »

They might decide on a totally different direction now. It's not unheard of that devs would do that - in fact, these devs time and again have said "we won't do that".... and then they have done that.... (not with reference to overland difficulty, just other things over time).

The difference in scale in the two projects is enormous. They won't even give us cross play.

TaSheen

Cross play etc is a lot more difficult than an empty database on a new server. Now mind you, I don't think they'll do this - but it is in no way as impossible as you think. Though consider the fuss from SEA/AU if they did....

Personally, I would prefer they did do a new vet server and just leave me alone on my "normal" overland.

spartaxoxo

It is most definitely impossible IMO. They have been very clear about why they chose the server mega server structure.

This is not a feasible suggestion imo. It's insanely expensive, hugely time consuming , goes against every design principle they have stated they have for a decade, and seems to only be a suggestion out of desire to not see other players with a different playstyle in an MMO.

TaSheen

I love seeing other players in an mmo. That's the whole reason I play this one. What I DO NOT want is overland ramped up to where I can't play it, which means for me, leaving the game.

A separate vet server would be much better from my pov. So we'll agree to disagree, though I do hope you who want a much harder overland get what you want.

Dahveed

I find it funny that the guy who told us "we should take a break from this thread" is responsible for about 40% of literally all posts, failing to understand even the most basic arguments. (Almost intentionally, one might think...)