disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Surgee wrote: »

disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Yes. West Weald was their attempt at forced increased difficulty to find the happy medium to still being new player friendly and making things more interesting for vets. It's what that looks like.

It's done nothing but force some casuals out. It solves nothing for vets because it's still too easy.

That's why I hope it doesn't happen again. I hope they don't consider that a success and put it in other parts of the game.

A slider is the best solution IMO because it can have a bunch of different levels of difficulty.

Surgee wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Yes. West Weald was their attempt at forced increased difficulty to find the happy medium to still being new player friendly and making things more interesting for vets. It's what that looks like.

It's done nothing but force some casuals out. It solves nothing for vets because it's still too easy.

That's why I hope it doesn't happen again. I hope they don't consider that a success and put it in other parts of the game.

A slider is the best solution IMO because it can have a bunch of different levels of difficulty.

I'm a casual to be honest. I play my crappy random build I invented like 6 years ago and didn't change it since. Dual dagger poison magic dot shooting Nord where nothing makes much sense. It was a walk in the park for me. Of course I can't solo an incursion, but that's a group event. Did West Weld really make people stop playing? How do we know that?

The Steam Charts. A bunch of people came back for the chapter like they always do and were gone way faster than before.

Surgee wrote: »

Did West Weld really make people stop playing? How do we know that?

West Weald didn't make me stop playing ESO, but it did make me stop playing West Weald once I finished the zone. Normally I like to hang around a new zone even after I'm finished questing it and do the dailies and look for furnishing patterns, etc.. But I found the long drawn out World Bosses and Incursions tedious and not the least bit fun. And the Public Dungeon bosses were also more of the same.

I always subscribe and purchase all the new chapters, but I decided that if any future content was going to continue this trend then I will not be purchasing it.

Surgee wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Yes. West Weald was their attempt at forced increased difficulty to find the happy medium to still being new player friendly and making things more interesting for vets. It's what that looks like.

It's done nothing but force some casuals out. It solves nothing for vets because it's still too easy.

That's why I hope it doesn't happen again. I hope they don't consider that a success and put it in other parts of the game.

A slider is the best solution IMO because it can have a bunch of different levels of difficulty.

I'm a casual to be honest. I play my crappy random build I invented like 6 years ago and didn't change it since. Dual dagger poison magic dot shooting Nord where nothing makes much sense. It was a walk in the park for me. Of course I can't solo an incursion, but that's a group event. Did West Weld really make people stop playing? How do we know that?

The Steam Charts. A bunch of people came back for the chapter like they always do and were gone way faster than before.

So from dropping steam charts numbers you have concluded that the game is too hard? Really?

Did I say the game is too hard? Because I distinctly remember saying it's still too easy for vets.

West Weald is a problem because they tried to find a middle ground between new players and vets and none exists because the power gap is too great. It made casuals who don't want difficulty leave and failed to bring in vets because it's still too easy.

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not too easy for vets. Many vets enjoy a relaxing questing story experience.

It's only too easy for players that want everything to be a challenge, and that is not what every vet wants.

"Bring in vets" is meant to refer to the subset of vets that are unhappy with the overland and aren't currently using it. Some of them would be brought in if there was an optional difficulty increase. Sorry that was unclear.

I wanted to see how easy/difficult the questing experience would be for a beginner player, so I played through the West Weald main quest line. (not all the way through since it requires completing Necrom questline as well and I didn't have the time nor the interest to complete that for this test)

Of course I can't just remove thousands of hours of experience, so I limited myself with a few criteria,

1. No light attacks. None what so ever to negate the benefits from weaving.
2. Heavy attack only for resources.
3. I'm only allowed to use a single skill, which in this case was Puncturing Sweeps.
4. Only purple crafted gear with purple enchants. No monster sets, mythics or arena weapons.
5. No CP (remembered the existence of CP only at the last boss, though it made minimal difference)
6. Minimal movement. I moved only if the boss jumped out of reach.
7. No companion or any outside help.

I logged all boss pulls, so you don't have to take my word for it, but I will break down the logs for people who don't know how to read logs.

SPOILER ALERT Minor spoilers about the West Weald story line (boss names)
At this point I don't really even know what to think. I know this won't change anyone's opinion or anything and at this point I don't really care.
I'm just so disappointed honestly... How has this been the acceptable state of the quests for this long? The questing experience isn't easy, it's a joke.

I was under the impression that the fights were really easy only because of my build and overall knowledge of the game and its mechanics, but that just wasn't the case. The enemy won't deal damage even if you give them time to. You don't have to have damage, weaving, healing, shielding, resistances, buffs or anything, literally nothing is required or expected. You have to show up and that's it. I know I was using a skill which heals and deals damage and not all classes have access to it, so some classes might have to use a second key to finish the last fight. At this point might as well have the forced quest companions fight the battle for you.

The visuals were amazing and I absolutely loved how the quest areas looked now that I had more time to look around. The story was solid in my opinion. But all that world building and story telling was completely broken by the encounters. There was no immersion as if we were actually invading a daedric price's realm, as her loyal followers were not even able to break through the shield given to me automatically by a quest NPC, as if that was ever required when my passive HP regen was almost enough to out heal the incoming damage.


I was hoping to be more objective than this, but I just simply cannot. I don't see a single reason why one skill is all you need to breeze through everything. I gave my best attempt at seeing the other side of the argument, but at this point I just cannot. I don't know what would I have to do to make this even a close fight. I could go on and on about how much of a disappointment all of this was, but I think I'm done for now.

Surgee wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Yes. West Weald was their attempt at forced increased difficulty to find the happy medium to still being new player friendly and making things more interesting for vets. It's what that looks like.

It's done nothing but force some casuals out. It solves nothing for vets because it's still too easy.

That's why I hope it doesn't happen again. I hope they don't consider that a success and put it in other parts of the game.

A slider is the best solution IMO because it can have a bunch of different levels of difficulty.

I'm a casual to be honest. I play my crappy random build I invented like 6 years ago and didn't change it since. Dual dagger poison magic dot shooting Nord where nothing makes much sense. It was a walk in the park for me. Of course I can't solo an incursion, but that's a group event. Did West Weld really make people stop playing? How do we know that?

The Steam Charts. A bunch of people came back for the chapter like they always do and were gone way faster than before.

So from dropping steam charts numbers you have concluded that the game is too hard? Really?

We also can't make sweeping claims that dropping Steam chart numbers mean the game is too easy either, can we? Especially when the numbers in and of themselves only show decreasing players and don't give any indication WHY people stopped playing.

If we can't infer people were quitting over Overland being too hard based solely on Steam chart numbers, then we can't try to infer from those same numbers alone that people are quitting because of it being too easy, either. Those numbers simply DO NOT INDICATE the reasons people stopped playing, only that they did.

ETA I've been playing this game since closed beta. I'm definitely what people would call a vet in terms of someone who's been here for a while. I remember when the game was harder, I remember Craglorn pre-1T. I'm not afraid of harder Overland, I just prefer the game being as it is because I don't want every single mob to be on par with Craglorn Wasps or enemies that were even just a few levels above you.

Because the important thing is that just making enemies hit a little harder, or absorb just a bit more damage, or have slightly more complicated AI and mechanics...isn't going to be enough for the people wanting harder Overland. That's not going to be drastic enough of a change to satisfy them. They'd still be mowing enemies down without breaking a sweat or engaging a single brain cell. It would have to be a serious, noticeable change...and I don't want every single mob I come across to require two or three minutes to burn down while questing or gathering mats or getting Skyshards or trying to RP in the world or whatever.

disky wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

disky wrote: »

I cannot imagine that after three years of this thread, after years of attempts at alternatives which have failed to change anyone's mind about overland being too easy and after the endless negative feedback over the enhanced difficulty in West Weald, that they would continue down that same path, with further attempts and floundering with "creative" solutions. ZOS has a (somewhat understandable) reputation for not listening to players, or for listening and then taking a completely different approach than what people were asking for, but this is one of the larger and more pressing issues on their plate and I can't imagine that they're going to take all of the available data and do something nobody ever actually wanted. Not this time, because we're we've all been here, in this thread, for years now, providing reams worth of feedback about ideal solutions.

I've said before that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I still am. While I think it's understandable to prepare for the worst, I feel like there's a better chance that they know what we need from them now.

Wait, what? West Weld has increased difficulty? I've finished campaign with my crappy casual character while being half asleep after late night shift. The only time I died was when I was speeding with my mount and fall damage got me. Mind you, my character doesn't even have a single healing skill. My companion casts something sometimes. If this is "increased difficulty" in their book, I'm already disappointed.

At the current state of the difficulty, the mobs are more of annoyance for me.

Aside from the Brazen Hoof fight in Silorn, which I can say is much harder than the average public dungeon group event, I don't really have much experience in West Weald myself because I'm waiting for it to be fun to play. But when I say that there's negative feedback about it, I'm not talking about my own, I'm talking about what we've heard from others in this forum who don't share your opinion of how the game should feel.

I recommend that you try and decouple your idea of what is good from what is right for the game. They aren't the same thing. Even so, that doesn't mean you can also ask for changes which improve your experience, you just have to consider the fact that people who aren't like you are playing the game, and their interests are also important to ZOS.

It's especially true given there have been direct quotes from Rich saying the game was too hard before and they had the data and evidence that backed that up.

There's clearly demand for harder Overland, but it can't be claimed that's a majority. It's something they're going to experiment with, that doesn't mean a majority want it. It just means they have numbers that show it's worth at least testing to see how many people would actually engage with it.

And I hope it works out for y'all. I've never once tried to claim you guys shouldn't have a game you enjoy too. I just firmly believe it shouldn't be imposed on everyone is all. I really hope whatever they implement is something that will satisfy both ends because we all play this game to have fun. We don't play it to struggle or to be bored because things are too hard or too easy.

I'm not sure it's a priority. They said IIRC they're planning on "testing" it.

BananaBender wrote: »

I wanted to see how easy/difficult the questing experience would be for a beginner player, so I played through the West Weald main quest line. (not all the way through since it requires completing Necrom questline as well and I didn't have the time nor the interest to complete that for this test)

Of course I can't just remove thousands of hours of experience, so I limited myself with a few criteria,

1. No light attacks. None what so ever to negate the benefits from weaving.
2. Heavy attack only for resources.
3. I'm only allowed to use a single skill, which in this case was Puncturing Sweeps.
4. Only purple crafted gear with purple enchants. No monster sets, mythics or arena weapons.
5. No CP (remembered the existence of CP only at the last boss, though it made minimal difference)
6. Minimal movement. I moved only if the boss jumped out of reach.
7. No companion or any outside help.

I logged all boss pulls, so you don't have to take my word for it, but I will break down the logs for people who don't know how to read logs.

SPOILER ALERT Minor spoilers about the West Weald story line (boss names)

I used the same setup the whole time, Order's Wrath and Claw of the Forest Wraith with 2pc Assassin's Guile. I had a normal skill bar, but as stated in the rules I only used Puncturing Sweeps.



So, how was the final boss of the quest line? It was mind blowingly simple and easy. There is no really other way to put it. Even when restricting myself as much as possible to a point where I was using the Crown Recovery food you get for free from login rewards to try to make my HP move even a little bit. As I will show you, it barely did. None of the heavy attacks from any of the bosses dealt ANY damage to me, even when in 6pc light armor. There was a fight where a quest follower gives you a shield, and during the whole fight the enemy DID NOT EVEN MANAGE TO BREAK IT.
I genuinely do not know how I could further restrict myself for there to be a single bit of challenge, apart from wearing actively harmful sets or nothing at all.

These are all taken from the Shardmarshal Vargas fight, which is the last fight before you are required to complete Necrom.
Here is every single cast I used from skills to potions and everything in between.


(Abolisher is the mechanic given to you in the fight)


This picture shows my HP during the fight, while actively standing in everything that could hurt me. It also shows that I had a max HP of 17,680. I was a nord with every attribute point put into Magicka.




Here is my damage taken sources, note that not a single attack was blocked.



Full logs for anyone interested ↓
https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:TVdMpafqrmRQYnA2

At this point I don't really even know what to think. I know this won't change anyone's opinion or anything and at this point I don't really care.
I'm just so disappointed honestly... How has this been the acceptable state of the quests for this long? The questing experience isn't easy, it's a joke.

I was under the impression that the fights were really easy only because of my build and overall knowledge of the game and its mechanics, but that just wasn't the case. The enemy won't deal damage even if you give them time to. You don't have to have damage, weaving, healing, shielding, resistances, buffs or anything, literally nothing is required or expected. You have to show up and that's it. I know I was using a skill which heals and deals damage and not all classes have access to it, so some classes might have to use a second key to finish the last fight. At this point might as well have the forced quest companions fight the battle for you.

The visuals were amazing and I absolutely loved how the quest areas looked now that I had more time to look around. The story was solid in my opinion. But all that world building and story telling was completely broken by the encounters. There was no immersion as if we were actually invading a daedric price's realm, as her loyal followers were not even able to break through the shield given to me automatically by a quest NPC, as if that was ever required when my passive HP regen was almost enough to out heal the incoming damage.


I was hoping to be more objective than this, but I just simply cannot. I don't see a single reason why one skill is all you need to breeze through everything. I gave my best attempt at seeing the other side of the argument, but at this point I just cannot. I don't know what would I have to do to make this even a close fight. I could go on and on about how much of a disappointment all of this was, but I think I'm done for now.

There. This is the best breakdown of the state of questing in this entire thread. No guess work, just pure data. Thank you, sir.