PTS Update 45 - Feedback Thread for Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)

Turtle_Bot · January 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the new Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign) in Update 45. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

Having finally had a (brief) chance to test out this campaign on the PTS, I will try to answer as best I can.

Do characters properly zone into Cyrodiil with templatized Stats and Gear?
Yes. From my short tests, I always had the template stats and white level 50 non-set gear in my inventory that I could equip. Note that the white gear didn't provide any stats at all when equipped (I hope this is the intention that the characters stats are the same weather naked or fully geared?). The Set gear I was wearing when I created the template characters were always disabled (The gear was highlighted as red and disabled while I was in the vengeance campaign like I was wearing torc of the last ayleid king mythic that disables set gear bonuses when equipped).
Do characters earn XP/AP/Gold upon leaving?
Yes, I definitely received gold and experience when leaving the campaign or logging back into a character that was force removed from the campaign after logging out in the campaign. I didn't pay too close attention if I also got AP, but I didn't exactly take a maps worth of objectives to have a noticeable AP gain, so may have simply missed it.
Do siege weapons still function with the limitations of only deploying 1 type at at time?
Admittedly I didn't get around to testing these. Will have to try and remember to test these if I get a chance to log onto the PTS again.
Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.
Considering I didn't get kicked from Cyrodiil mid battle I can't say on this. None of my characters seemed corrupted when I logged out inside the campaign then logged back in to those characters (either inside or outside of the campaign).
What are your initial thoughts on Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)?
I like the idea of putting the power and gameplay back into the abilities. The simplicity was a nice change, but it did expose a lot of balance issues. I did also notice there was still some clunkyness (input delay), even with the "simplified skills". I can't say if this delay was specifically due to ping since I don't use my VPN for the test server like I do for live server. I will try to add some more details in the general feedback response below.
Do you have any general feedback?
- There seems to be some input delay still, specifically with the Sorcerer class. There were a few times where I tried to bar swap or cast an instant cast ability and it wouldn't cast. Most other classes seemed to not have this issue from my testing
  - Note 1: Account name is same as here on the forums, character name for this particular character that had these input delays/clunkyness is "Vengeancetestsorc".
  - Note 2: As I mentioned above, I typically play on live with a gaming VPN to help reduce the ping spikes I frequently get, but I don't use it for the test server. This may have been a reason for this.
  - Note 3: All of my addons are disabled for PTS server.
- There seems to be some general clunkyness to some of the classes, notably Sorcerer, Templar and Arcanist. Part of this is tied to the balance aspect and missing parts in their kits, but there seemed to be more to it for these 3 classes in particular.
- I understand that this first week in the PTS is to ensure performance is correct and that the test can produce reliable results, but it is very important to note that class balance is just as important to ensure the results are as comprehensive as possible. I will spoiler what I have noted about the classes to shorten my overall wall of text, but hopefully the team can update the test campaign on the PTS server even after the patch goes live to ensure as comprehensive of a test can be thoroughly conducted. (We are willing to work with you guys on the balance aspect here to help with conducting this test, we just need you guys to let us help you).
  - Dragon Knight
  - This class seems to be the strongest in the vengeance campaign. It has 2 very strong and reliable heals, a shield that is on par with live server hardened ward, a very strong ranged interrupt/CC, one of the best ultimates, plenty of self/group buffs and the cheapest spammable of any class (whip costing 50/50 mag/stam means it costs less than the recoveries, which is something no other class has).
  - Nightblade
  - Probably the second strongest class for the vengeance campaign (and no it's not because of invisibility). The entire kit is well rounded and strong, providing many buffs (including evasion), but most notable was that merciless resolve hits far too hard, even with a 5 second cooldown. Not even ultimates have that amount of burst. What puts it below DK is the lack of an overpowered defensive ultimate.
  - Warden
  - The class is very strong, but lacking a consistent spammable. Given a spammable on par with concealed or whip, this class would easily take the number 1 spot with the fantastic delayed burst, and defensive capabilities.
  - Necro
  - Strange for this class to be so high right? There is a noticeable gap between the top 3 and the rest though, but Necro seems (for me) at the top of "the rest". Skulls is actually a fantastic spammable now that all the power that was tied up in the convoluted corpse mechanic and GLS interactions have been added to the base ability itself. It is as strong as vengeance crystal shards but without the cast time. What holds necro back is the lack of delayed burst to pair with flaming skull, defensively the class is strong but could probably just remove the self-defile from resistant flesh since there's no passive to counteract that debuff.
  - Templar
  - This class is close to Necro, but instead of missing the delayed burst, it's missing a strong spammable. Jabs really just isn't it, even in this new simplified form. I do love the rework to power of the light though, small upfront damage then a big guaranteed delayed burst when it ends without the convoluted and near impossible task of deal damage to make it deal damage.
  - Arcanist
  - This class could easily swap with Sorcerer, but having good buff/debuff access keeps it slightly above, the class is over-reliant on beam. Runeblades make for a nice spammable that generates crux, but there's nothing to pair with runeblades due to how clunky beam is to use in PvP. The classes defensive options are good and it's easy enough to generate crux, but that lack of offensive pressure really hurts the class for this mode.
  - Sorcerer
  - Strange for such a strong class on live to be so low here, but the issues with the class for the skills in this mode are numerous and varied.
    - First: Surge is the class self burst heal equal to Honor the Dead, but unlike all the other class self burst heals, Surge has a 6 second cooldown with the "bonus" being MINOR berserk while slotted (not even major berserk). Other classes get major berserk and no cooldown on their self heal, so why such a harsh restriction on this ability?
    - Second: Crystal Shards remained a cast time ability and since there are zero non-class abilities, this leaves Sorcerer without a spammable. Necro flaming skulls hits for 1% less damage than crystal shards with same range and projectile speed, but has no cast time. Skulls is in a good spot, why was shards left so clunky when the frags proc version on live, is available to be used as the vengeance version of crystal shards for the purposes of this test.
    - Third: The class lacks ANY speed at all. With how clunky vengeance bolt escape is (seriously, Arcanist portal is faster, smoother and easier to use than bolt escape) and the self heal having an insane 6 second cooldown, having zero access to movement speed is just the final nail in the coffin of how this vengeance version of Sorcerers class kit was designed. What makes this even more egregious is that Warden (a tanky brawler) and NB (no cooldown on heal and kept invis as well as a much stronger overall kit) got to keep their movement speed boosts while sorcerer lost its movement speed buff.
    - Forth: There is an inherent lack of buff/debuff access in the class kit. It has resolve and berserk, but nothing else. This is fine on live where scribing, sets, weapon skills and global skills cover this inherent weakness, but in a campaign where everything outside the simplified class skills is disabled, this becomes extremely apparent.
    All of these issues combine for a class kit that is clunky, unwieldy and straight up unfun to play and something I would not be looking to take into the tests on the live servers if left this way.
    The only good side I could find with sorcerer was that since the pets were now abilities and not pets, they were actually usable in PvP. Small comfort when the rest of the class kit has been left in such a clunky state.
- @ZOS_Kevin I do want to note once more, that I understand that the aim of this initial week is to ensure the campaign is functional (hence why I Spoilered the long read on balance issues), but I cannot stress the importance of understanding the balance aspect and ensuring all classes are at least equally functional with access to the same basics of combat (self heal, pressure, burst, mitigation and fluidity), otherwise the results of any tests conducted will be just as unreliable as if the campaign was full of bugs due to missing out on data from specific classes. I am just hoping that the team will keep updating this campaign with balance passes on the PTS right up until the test is ready to go in march to allow us to help them with testing balance to ensure as thorough of a test is conducted on the live servers as possible.

Cast_El · January 22

Sorc seems ok, didn't fight any player yet just moobs.
But templar is unplayable, range spam has 1,5second cast time, healing issues and sustain issues are worst than in live server. I struggle to kill moobs at ressources 🤔 because of sustain issues. Also lack of mobility tool.

Cast_El · January 22

Devs should add a hint description when entering in vengeance, to explain sets doesn't work, etc to help new comers

Cast_El · January 22

The last line is not disabled with this set, when I am on my back bar with another set. The thing happen with the second set. Characters Stats are not changed though

Cast_El · January 22

The apocryphal gate need to be cast twice. The first time I press the button, nothing happens

i11ionward · January 22

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Sorcerer[*] Strange for such a strong class on live to be so low here, but the issues with the class for the skills in this mode are numerous and varied.
- First: Surge is the class self burst heal equal to Honor the Dead, but unlike all the other class self burst heals, Surge has a 6 second cooldown with the "bonus" being MINOR berserk while slotted (not even major berserk). Other classes get major berserk and no cooldown on their self heal, so why such a harsh restriction on this ability? - Winged Twilight, Conjured Ward, Dark Exchange, Bound Armor, Bolt Escape all these skills are also defensive tools of Sorc, just relying on spamming one skill won't work. I see the logic in the fact that ZOS made a 6 second cooldown on Surge. After all, you can spam a ward, it's also a kind of healing.
- Second: Crystal Shards remained a cast time ability and since there are zero non-class abilities, this leaves Sorcerer without a spammable. Necro flaming skulls hits for 1% less damage than crystal shards with same range and projectile speed, but has no cast time. Skulls is in a good spot, why was shards left so clunky when the frags proc version on live, is available to be used as the vengeance version of crystal shards for the purposes of this test. - just look at the Overlord skill, yes it consumes the ultimate, but it is exactly the spam skill that most sorcs are crying about in this thread. And yes, you can still use Crystal Shard for spam, even with 0.8 cast time.
- Third: The class lacks ANY speed at all. With how clunky vengeance bolt escape is (seriously, Arcanist portal is faster, smoother and easier to use than bolt escape) and the self heal having an insane 6 second cooldown, having zero access to movement speed is just the final nail in the coffin of how this vengeance version of Sorcerers class kit was designed. What makes this even more egregious is that Warden (a tanky brawler) and NB (no cooldown on heal and kept invis as well as a much stronger overall kit) got to keep their movement speed boosts while sorcerer lost its movement speed buff. - Perhaps the only point I partially agree with. However, you can still close/increase the distance using Bolt Escape, Encase, Daedric Mines, Stun, etc.
- Forth: There is an inherent lack of buff/debuff access in the class kit. It has resolve and berserk, but nothing else. This is fine on live where scribing, sets, weapon skills and global skills cover this inherent weakness, but in a campaign where everything outside the simplified class skills is disabled, this becomes extremely apparent. - Major Protection is still buff, why did you forget to mention it? It’s also worth mentioning Dark Exchange. If I’m not mistaken, it’s the only stamina skill among all classes that allows you to convert less useful stamina into magicka.
All of these issues combine for a class kit that is clunky, unwieldy and straight up unfun to play and something I would not be looking to take into the tests on the live servers if left this way.
The only good side I could find with sorcerer was that since the pets were now abilities and not pets, they were actually usable in PvP. Small comfort when the rest of the class kit has been left in such a clunky state.

I left my comments in the quote.

Is it just me, or do Sorcs from the live server seem a bit upset that now they'll have to press more buttons than just spamming Ward and Streak? Sorry, my statement might come across as a bit aggressive, but I tested the Sorc skills on the PTS, and in my opinion, things don’t look nearly as bad as described by the esteemed @Turtle_Bot . The only thing I can add about the Sorc is that if you’re a fan of Stamsorc, there’s nothing on the PTS that resembles a Stamsorc.

mmtaniac · January 22

Test like this is ok. It show's how useless design off templar class is. Good. Without items templar class not exist and this bad design. Every class should be playable without items. Items should be only added value not required value.

Savagejack · January 22

Sorcerer was not even given the decency of a spammable. But other skills were changed entirely. I won't be participating since some classes don't even have basic tools apparently

Cast_El · January 22

Sorcerer is fine, not Op. I meet 4 NB and manage to survive, but not abble to kill anyone by my own. And I did 1v1 against sorc then 1v1 against NB.NB is too strong and too oppressive.

Wolfshade · January 22

Nb uncloak works as usually, dot`s/effects/aoe.

So afterall the performance gets tested by reducing siege weapons and give ap/gold/boxes to player when leaving? @ZOS_Kevin Thats the major point?

Renato90085 · January 22

i11ionward wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Sorcerer[*] Strange for such a strong class on live to be so low here, but the issues with the class for the skills in this mode are numerous and varied.
- First: Surge is the class self burst heal equal to Honor the Dead, but unlike all the other class self burst heals, Surge has a 6 second cooldown with the "bonus" being MINOR berserk while slotted (not even major berserk). Other classes get major berserk and no cooldown on their self heal, so why such a harsh restriction on this ability? - Winged Twilight, Conjured Ward, Dark Exchange, Bound Armor, Bolt Escape all these skills are also defensive tools of Sorc, just relying on spamming one skill won't work. I see the logic in the fact that ZOS made a 6 second cooldown on Surge. After all, you can spam a ward, it's also a kind of healing.
- Second: Crystal Shards remained a cast time ability and since there are zero non-class abilities, this leaves Sorcerer without a spammable. Necro flaming skulls hits for 1% less damage than crystal shards with same range and projectile speed, but has no cast time. Skulls is in a good spot, why was shards left so clunky when the frags proc version on live, is available to be used as the vengeance version of crystal shards for the purposes of this test. - just look at the Overlord skill, yes it consumes the ultimate, but it is exactly the spam skill that most sorcs are crying about in this thread. And yes, you can still use Crystal Shard for spam, even with 0.8 cast time.
- Third: The class lacks ANY speed at all. With how clunky vengeance bolt escape is (seriously, Arcanist portal is faster, smoother and easier to use than bolt escape) and the self heal having an insane 6 second cooldown, having zero access to movement speed is just the final nail in the coffin of how this vengeance version of Sorcerers class kit was designed. What makes this even more egregious is that Warden (a tanky brawler) and NB (no cooldown on heal and kept invis as well as a much stronger overall kit) got to keep their movement speed boosts while sorcerer lost its movement speed buff. - Perhaps the only point I partially agree with. However, you can still close/increase the distance using Bolt Escape, Encase, Daedric Mines, Stun, etc.
- Forth: There is an inherent lack of buff/debuff access in the class kit. It has resolve and berserk, but nothing else. This is fine on live where scribing, sets, weapon skills and global skills cover this inherent weakness, but in a campaign where everything outside the simplified class skills is disabled, this becomes extremely apparent. - Major Protection is still buff, why did you forget to mention it? It’s also worth mentioning Dark Exchange. If I’m not mistaken, it’s the only stamina skill among all classes that allows you to convert less useful stamina into magicka.
All of these issues combine for a class kit that is clunky, unwieldy and straight up unfun to play and something I would not be looking to take into the tests on the live servers if left this way.
The only good side I could find with sorcerer was that since the pets were now abilities and not pets, they were actually usable in PvP. Small comfort when the rest of the class kit has been left in such a clunky state.

I left my comments in the quote.

Is it just me, or do Sorcs from the live server seem a bit upset that now they'll have to press more buttons than just spamming Ward and Streak? Sorry, my statement might come across as a bit aggressive, but I tested the Sorc skills on the PTS, and in my opinion, things don’t look nearly as bad as described by the esteemed @Turtle_Bot . The only thing I can add about the Sorc is that if you’re a fan of Stamsorc, there’s nothing on the PTS that resembles a Stamsorc.

i think all skill use mag..so not anything for stam build...

Zabagad · January 22

Cast_El wrote: »

Sorcerer is fine, not Op. I meet 4 NB and manage to survive, but not abble to kill anyone by my own. And I did 1v1 against sorc then 1v1 against NB.NB is too strong and too oppressive.

Ok thirdsecond time now you say this. (Edit - one time was this I11I comedian)
Then pls enlighten us how you play?
Curse->hardcastfrag->->hardcastfrag->->hardcastfrag->->hardcastfrag->->hardcastfrag->Fury?
Or Curse->HA->HA-Fury?
Or how can this "fine not OP" sorcerer kill anyone?

Wolfshade · January 22

Renato90085 wrote: »

i think all skill use mag..so not anything for stam build...

Attribute Points and Mundus are disabled.

Values:

70k life
30k Mag/Stam
2,2k Magreg
1,5k Stamreg

Turtle_Bot · January 22

i11ionward wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[*] Sorcerer[*] Strange for such a strong class on live to be so low here, but the issues with the class for the skills in this mode are numerous and varied.
- First: Surge is the class self burst heal equal to Honor the Dead, but unlike all the other class self burst heals, Surge has a 6 second cooldown with the "bonus" being MINOR berserk while slotted (not even major berserk). Other classes get major berserk and no cooldown on their self heal, so why such a harsh restriction on this ability? - Winged Twilight, Conjured Ward, Dark Exchange, Bound Armor, Bolt Escape all these skills are also defensive tools of Sorc, just relying on spamming one skill won't work. I see the logic in the fact that ZOS made a 6 second cooldown on Surge. After all, you can spam a ward, it's also a kind of healing.
- Second: Crystal Shards remained a cast time ability and since there are zero non-class abilities, this leaves Sorcerer without a spammable. Necro flaming skulls hits for 1% less damage than crystal shards with same range and projectile speed, but has no cast time. Skulls is in a good spot, why was shards left so clunky when the frags proc version on live, is available to be used as the vengeance version of crystal shards for the purposes of this test. - just look at the Overlord skill, yes it consumes the ultimate, but it is exactly the spam skill that most sorcs are crying about in this thread. And yes, you can still use Crystal Shard for spam, even with 0.8 cast time.
- Third: The class lacks ANY speed at all. With how clunky vengeance bolt escape is (seriously, Arcanist portal is faster, smoother and easier to use than bolt escape) and the self heal having an insane 6 second cooldown, having zero access to movement speed is just the final nail in the coffin of how this vengeance version of Sorcerers class kit was designed. What makes this even more egregious is that Warden (a tanky brawler) and NB (no cooldown on heal and kept invis as well as a much stronger overall kit) got to keep their movement speed boosts while sorcerer lost its movement speed buff. - Perhaps the only point I partially agree with. However, you can still close/increase the distance using Bolt Escape, Encase, Daedric Mines, Stun, etc.
- Forth: There is an inherent lack of buff/debuff access in the class kit. It has resolve and berserk, but nothing else. This is fine on live where scribing, sets, weapon skills and global skills cover this inherent weakness, but in a campaign where everything outside the simplified class skills is disabled, this becomes extremely apparent. - Major Protection is still buff, why did you forget to mention it? It’s also worth mentioning Dark Exchange. If I’m not mistaken, it’s the only stamina skill among all classes that allows you to convert less useful stamina into magicka.
All of these issues combine for a class kit that is clunky, unwieldy and straight up unfun to play and something I would not be looking to take into the tests on the live servers if left this way.
The only good side I could find with sorcerer was that since the pets were now abilities and not pets, they were actually usable in PvP. Small comfort when the rest of the class kit has been left in such a clunky state.

I left my comments in the quote.

Is it just me, or do Sorcs from the live server seem a bit upset that now they'll have to press more buttons than just spamming Ward and Streak? Sorry, my statement might come across as a bit aggressive, but I tested the Sorc skills on the PTS, and in my opinion, things don’t look nearly as bad as described by the esteemed @Turtle_Bot . The only thing I can add about the Sorc is that if you’re a fan of Stamsorc, there’s nothing on the PTS that resembles a Stamsorc.

Don't we just love how all sorcs get tarred with the same BS ward brush every time there's a valid complaint made about other issues with the class, especially when those sorcs are known to NOT USE WARD just because some non-sorcs can't put their biases aside for one single comment..

As for your comments:
Healing:
- Winged twilight only heals the caster for half the heal amount, ~7.5k. It is not the spammable, zero cooldown 15k self heal (or even the 11-12k secondary heal) that every other class has.
- Dark exchange still has its cast time issues that plagued the ability long before the ward buffs in U40.
- Bound armor is 4k magicka for 10s major protection and nothing else, not even minor resolve, half the duration, 1/3 to 1/4 of the buffs and costs between 2k and 4k more than other classes buff abilities.
- Bolt escape is super clunky in the vengeance campaign (they have changed something in the code for the ability there), something that I specifically pointed out in my post.
- As was debated in extreme depth on other threads in the past, wards are not the same as heals, however as a counterpoint to this, why then does DK get a 12k ward that is spammable (no cooldown) on top of coag and multiple other 10k+ heal abilities (also with no cooldown), or Arcanist gets runespite ward (with 5k heal per crux, so a 3 second cooldown on its 15k heal that is part of its shield) and also had runemend changed to be a full power single instance burst heal with no cooldown? Wards are not a reason to give a heal a cooldown that is that long, otherwise DK and Arcanist would see 6 second cooldowns on their heals (coag and runemend) at a minimum to match with surge.

The only other "heal" that has a direct cooldown (runespite ward is just generating crux, not an actual cooldown) is NB cloak that is an 11k heal that also grants 3 seconds invisibility (basically 3 seconds of immortality due to zero detection abilities/pots on PTS). Funny how that ability only has a 4 second cooldown but surge that is a heal only (well heal + minor berserk) has a cooldown that is 50% longer than an ability that grants 3 seconds of 100% mitigation against targeted abilities.

Surge doesn't need zero cooldown, I never stated as such, it just needs a realistic cooldown for what it does (2-3 seconds max).

Spammable:
- So Sorcerer is forced to have a minimum 5 second cooldown (bare minimum time it takes to gen 25 ultimate for a single cast of overload) on its class spammable or deal with the clunkyness of the cast time while no other class has to deal with that except plar (which I also noted was an issue plar faced with jabs).
- I also noted that skulls basically has 99% of shards damage but without the cast time, and that the assets for frags proc are there to allow for an "instant cast" shards to be made on the vengeance campaign.

I'm not even asking for shards to deal frags proc levels of damage, I'd even be happy if its damage was reduced to coincide with removing the cast time. Just remove the clunkyness that is the cast time on frags

Speed:
- I noted how clunky bolt escape is. It is literally as slow on PTS as mist form is on live server where it takes min half a second of doing nothing before it teleports. ZOS has clearly changed something within the code for that ability on PTS. Just straight movement speed is already more than enough to keep up with streak on live servers (as has been proven countless times with video evidence on other threads) where streak is significantly faster than what bolt escape is on the PTS.
- Bolt escape is also a very unreliable stun on PTS, I ended up switching it to back bar to use exclusively as an escape tool since the stun is no longer along the entire length of the teleport, but only in a small AoE on landing point (another thing that makes the skill clunky to use compared to live).
- Why do people think the other classes don't have any stuns or CC on top of their speed to catch sorc (not just PTS but on live too), it's almost like CC abilities, gap closers and speed buffs just vanish from the other classes kits when players complain about sorc/streak.

Buffs:
- I "forgot" to include it, because it's 4k mag just for that buff for only 10 seconds and nothing else, it is just not worth running even for major protection, other classes are getting 3-4 buffs for either zero cost or 2-3k mag and their buffs last 20-30 seconds. I would understand this cost if it was a group wide buff like some of the buffs other classes have, but bound armor is only a self buff.

I also noted that it was ALL of these issues combined that makes it so clunky/awkward to use. Give sorc some actual speed, OR, reduce the cooldown on surge to 2 seconds (maybe 3 seconds, or make it a heal over time that better reflects the live version of surge), OR, remove the cast time on crystal shards, OR, have bound armor give something else as well as protection to make it worth the 4k mag cost (or reduce the cost to 2.5-3k). Any single 1 of these changes would make the other issues much more tolerable, but the fact that it is all 4 of them combined is what makes it so clunky to play.

I also noted multiple times it was not about the power of the skills (except just now with bound armor) but how clunky they are to use, where the other classes get as strong (or better) skills without any of the clunkyness, yet that point (clearly important because it was stated multiple times) is always deliberately ignored.

It's almost like non-sorcs can't seem to understand it's about making sorc fun/smooth to play by removing/replacing the clunky downsides with more appropriate downsides that don't remove the fun of playing the class, it's not (and never was) about giving sorc god-mode or whatever conspiracy it is that people seem to think its been about...

MincMincMinc · January 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

After reviewing all of the skill lines in pts I have some concerns. Mainly the whole point is to run this test by removing bloated complicated skills and have only core essentials. While I understand that necro and arc have their stacking systems as some sort of "identity", the skill lines were basically ignoring the whole purpose of the test.

To top it off these two classes have extra buffs needlessly tacked on to some skills that other classes have. A general rule of thumb that should have been followed was that a skills shouldn't have multiple AND statements in them "Does damage AND generates a corpse AND does a dot AND does a debuff AND gives a buff AND does offbalance AND.......AND........AND........."

If a skill is more than a paragraph long, it needs to be simplified.
Also I think it would be best to make sure the status effect system was turned off. I didnt get to check this tonight, but it is essentially added procs on every single action done in the game. Can't be healthy for the server. Probably why phys damage and mag damage didnt have status effects for so long, as they were the most common forms of damage.

There aren't going to be any Necros on during the test anyway if you look at their actual toolkit vs. NB or DK.

Tru lol, NB is going to be cracked, DK is going to be impossible to 1v1 with the pressure, sorc doesnt have a spammable or an ult, arc+necro may only be strong from the sheer number of buffs they get, templar is lol just like on live.

Decimus wrote: »

PvP has devolved into slow stalemate heavy attack spam, running out of resources before you can finish off your opponent who switched to defense until one person gets bored or makes a mistake. I don't see anyone surviving when fighting outnumbered after these changes since the sustain is just not there, nor is the burst damage.

Class balance is also wayyy off, with necromancer (ironically) and nightblade being a lot stronger than the rest.

Good thing there's BGs, but if this is some long-term direction for PvP in Cyrodiil it just feels like wasted development time.

Yeah atleast tweaking the regen to the point where you can cast 20-30 skills before starting to gas out would be nice.

Balance is obviously not the focus on this, not sure why people are so fixated on the balance for a week long test.

I cannot possibly see this as their longterm direction nor have they ever stated that. I could see them finishing stat standardizations like combining spell and weapon damage or the crits. Then would come class reworks. Before they rework classes I am sure they want to know whether the game can handle one skill being an aoe+dot+effect+debuff+........ Not every skill needs to be paragraphs long to be fun to use. Compare old dizzy swing vs new dizzy swing, I'd much rather the longer cast time knockup. It was especially fun when they fixed the aim check problems before ruining the skill with the terrible offbalance concept.

EDIT: Honestly you should get worried if zos starts really trying to balance these skill lines out.

Major_Mangle · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

After reviewing all of the skill lines in pts I have some concerns. Mainly the whole point is to run this test by removing bloated complicated skills and have only core essentials. While I understand that necro and arc have their stacking systems as some sort of "identity", the skill lines were basically ignoring the whole purpose of the test.

To top it off these two classes have extra buffs needlessly tacked on to some skills that other classes have. A general rule of thumb that should have been followed was that a skills shouldn't have multiple AND statements in them "Does damage AND generates a corpse AND does a dot AND does a debuff AND gives a buff AND does offbalance AND.......AND........AND........."

If a skill is more than a paragraph long, it needs to be simplified.
Also I think it would be best to make sure the status effect system was turned off. I didnt get to check this tonight, but it is essentially added procs on every single action done in the game. Can't be healthy for the server. Probably why phys damage and mag damage didnt have status effects for so long, as they were the most common forms of damage.

There aren't going to be any Necros on during the test anyway if you look at their actual toolkit vs. NB or DK.

Tru lol, NB is going to be cracked, DK is going to be impossible to 1v1 with the pressure, sorc doesnt have a spammable or an ult, arc+necro may only be strong from the sheer number of buffs they get, templar is lol just like on live.

Decimus wrote: »

PvP has devolved into slow stalemate heavy attack spam, running out of resources before you can finish off your opponent who switched to defense until one person gets bored or makes a mistake. I don't see anyone surviving when fighting outnumbered after these changes since the sustain is just not there, nor is the burst damage.

Class balance is also wayyy off, with necromancer (ironically) and nightblade being a lot stronger than the rest.

Good thing there's BGs, but if this is some long-term direction for PvP in Cyrodiil it just feels like wasted development time.

Yeah atleast tweaking the regen to the point where you can cast 20-30 skills before starting to gas out would be nice.

Balance is obviously not the focus on this, not sure why people are so fixated on the balance for a week long test.

I cannot possibly see this as their longterm direction nor have they ever stated that. I could see them finishing stat standardizations like combining spell and weapon damage or the crits. Then would come class reworks. Before they rework classes I am sure they want to know whether the game can handle one skill being an aoe+dot+effect+debuff+........ Not every skill needs to be paragraphs long to be fun to use. Compare old dizzy swing vs new dizzy swing, I'd much rather the longer cast time knockup. It was especially fun when they fixed the aim check problems before ruining the skill with the terrible offbalance concept.

ZOS said the same about no proc tests and see where that got us...it killed the most popular campaign on pceu and eventually it turned into another emp trading ghost town....all because a few loud mouths lived in the delusion that it required more skill and created better performance (which it didn't)

I pray that these tests are only data collection tests and nothing more. Anything that would even resemble a "preset PvP" should never become a reality in any shape or form in ESO.

MincMincMinc · January 22

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Speed:
- I noted how clunky bolt escape is. It is literally as slow on PTS as mist form is on live server where it takes min half a second of doing nothing before it teleports. ZOS has clearly changed something within the code for that ability on PTS. Just straight movement speed is already more than enough to keep up with streak on live servers (as has been proven countless times with video evidence on other threads) where streak is significantly faster than what bolt escape is on the PTS.
- Bolt escape is also a very unreliable stun on PTS, I ended up switching it to back bar to use exclusively as an escape tool since the stun is no longer along the entire length of the teleport, but only in a small AoE on landing point (another thing that makes the skill clunky to use compared to live).
- Why do people think the other classes don't have any stuns or CC on top of their speed to catch sorc (not just PTS but on live too), it's almost like CC abilities, gap closers and speed buffs just vanish from the other classes kits when players complain about sorc/streak.

I dont think streak on pts is any slower, on live I think they just move your character model and camera faster that it actually happens. Its why you can still attack sorcs at the origin location, even though they have already moved to the end. Pretty sure zos put this change on live to help players not get confused when they streak into a new environment. Basically if they move the camera before it actually happens, players can look around for the rest of the gcd to prepare for the next gcd.

Soraka · January 22

I'm not able to play today but I have a couple of curiosities.

What happens if you zone in with a full inventory? Since it's supposed to spawn the white gear.

Is there any purpose to using the white gear? We don't have any weapon skills etc. What is it for? Can we ignore it? I played some in the test server last night before realizing that stuff was in my inventory.

I also had issues actually testing much because no one was around so I'm glad there's some organized play happening tomorrow. I really feel like it's important to test this before live so our characters don't get messed up.

Has anyone been able to test what happens when you get kicked from the game while in Cyro?

I also noticed forward camps don't despawn if you try to place a new one (makes sense I guess you don't want people trolling it, but it does mean more people will need to use them since you can't put a new one anywhere until yours is gone. I tried going across the map to place a new one and it refused.)

xylena_lazarow · January 22

Reminder that this isn't testing "procs" as we already know that proc sets have zero effect on performance, because they already did the no proc main camp test, and performance was still terrible. Not sure why they're trying to nerf both skills and siege at the same time, how will they know which one is helping the performance?

Turtle_Bot · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Speed:
- I noted how clunky bolt escape is. It is literally as slow on PTS as mist form is on live server where it takes min half a second of doing nothing before it teleports. ZOS has clearly changed something within the code for that ability on PTS. Just straight movement speed is already more than enough to keep up with streak on live servers (as has been proven countless times with video evidence on other threads) where streak is significantly faster than what bolt escape is on the PTS.
- Bolt escape is also a very unreliable stun on PTS, I ended up switching it to back bar to use exclusively as an escape tool since the stun is no longer along the entire length of the teleport, but only in a small AoE on landing point (another thing that makes the skill clunky to use compared to live).
- Why do people think the other classes don't have any stuns or CC on top of their speed to catch sorc (not just PTS but on live too), it's almost like CC abilities, gap closers and speed buffs just vanish from the other classes kits when players complain about sorc/streak.

I dont think streak on pts is any slower, on live I think they just move your character model and camera faster that it actually happens. Its why you can still attack sorcs at the origin location, even though they have already moved to the end. Pretty sure zos put this change on live to help players not get confused when they streak into a new environment. Basically if they move the camera before it actually happens, players can look around for the rest of the gcd to prepare for the next gcd.

I'm not sure exactly what they've done, but on PTS it was very noticeable for me where the character (and camera) just stood there for a solid half second before being teleported.

Live streak is much faster than what BE was on PTS, even if it is just the camera moving on the live servers. Like I said, it actually felt like I was casting mist form or live version of Arc portal instead of BE when testing on the PTS. The stutter/delay with the skill was horrible for the flow of combat if I was trying to cast more than just streak.

What made it even more noticeable was that Arc portal was legitimately instant cast for me (same conditions). I do have auto cast ground AoEs turned on, but even then I basically cast portal while running and just auto ported (camera and character) instantly through the portal as fast as streak does on live.

Thinking on it, it actually seems likely that ZOS might have accidentally switched some of the code of the 2 skills during the process of porting them over to the new campaign. Might be something to double check?

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reminder that this isn't testing "procs" as we already know that proc sets have zero effect on performance, because they already did the no proc main camp test, and performance was still terrible. Not sure why they're trying to nerf both skills and siege at the same time, how will they know which one is helping the performance?

The point of the test is to see if any option zos balance team has will affect performance. If the server still fails, the only option is better hardware or give up. If the test is a success it means the hardware is fine and the balance team has to do a better job at streamlining skill structure.

Also the last tests had improvements, just nothing significant enough to rework 300+sets alone. Considering they also did skill structure tests too they probably saw that multiple aspects of the game are bloated unnecessarily.

Honestly do we really need to use 3-4 seige at the same time? 99% of pvp is just everyone sitting at the ram on an empty keep.

ZDunlain · January 22

I think you cannot give in this test abilities that heals and do damage at the same time and also cloack with heal if other classes dont have proper spammables or utility.

Long story short, tune down nightblade and buff a bit others like sorc spammable and give templars something more. Dk, necro, warden are as all classes should be.

MincMincMinc · January 22

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Speed:
- I noted how clunky bolt escape is. It is literally as slow on PTS as mist form is on live server where it takes min half a second of doing nothing before it teleports. ZOS has clearly changed something within the code for that ability on PTS. Just straight movement speed is already more than enough to keep up with streak on live servers (as has been proven countless times with video evidence on other threads) where streak is significantly faster than what bolt escape is on the PTS.
- Bolt escape is also a very unreliable stun on PTS, I ended up switching it to back bar to use exclusively as an escape tool since the stun is no longer along the entire length of the teleport, but only in a small AoE on landing point (another thing that makes the skill clunky to use compared to live).
- Why do people think the other classes don't have any stuns or CC on top of their speed to catch sorc (not just PTS but on live too), it's almost like CC abilities, gap closers and speed buffs just vanish from the other classes kits when players complain about sorc/streak.

I dont think streak on pts is any slower, on live I think they just move your character model and camera faster that it actually happens. Its why you can still attack sorcs at the origin location, even though they have already moved to the end. Pretty sure zos put this change on live to help players not get confused when they streak into a new environment. Basically if they move the camera before it actually happens, players can look around for the rest of the gcd to prepare for the next gcd.

I'm not sure exactly what they've done, but on PTS it was very noticeable for me where the character (and camera) just stood there for a solid half second before being teleported.

Live streak is much faster than what BE was on PTS, even if it is just the camera moving on the live servers. Like I said, it actually felt like I was casting mist form or live version of Arc portal instead of BE when testing on the PTS. The stutter/delay with the skill was horrible for the flow of combat if I was trying to cast more than just streak.

What made it even more noticeable was that Arc portal was legitimately instant cast for me (same conditions). I do have auto cast ground AoEs turned on, but even then I basically cast portal while running and just auto ported (camera and character) instantly through the portal as fast as streak does on live.

Thinking on it, it actually seems likely that ZOS might have accidentally switched some of the code of the 2 skills during the process of porting them over to the new campaign. Might be something to double check?

I'm 99% sure they just did copy and paste on all of the skills and then started deleting extra spaghetti. If anything this probably just highlights how bloated live streak is. Its probably a jumbled mess barely being held together. Ill have to try the arc teleport to see.

From a design aspect I bet the hangup is when streak tries to decide on whether to do a planar movement or go up a hill. Or there is some weird tick aspect of it. If you ever tried using dovrha you can notice some actions get tied to ticks. Like dovrha is supposed to trigger when you stop moving. However with latency issues these ticks either happen near instantly or are delayed depending on your timing. Perhaps streak waits for you to be considered "not moving" and triggers off that tick to finally do the teleport.

Kamchuk · January 22

Adamus wrote: »

EVERY THURSDAY 9-11PM EST/6-8PM PST (2-4 UTC friday)
Army of the Pact (EP) plans to organize a raid on the PTS. Welcome all groups to join to help in the early testing stages. Would be great to get some competition on the map.

I think this is an excellent idea. I would especially recommend BRK as gathering point since it has wide open fields on the mine side and the lumbermill side. But wherever we can mass together is good. I hope our European, and Oceania timezone players can participate.

I would encourage that we do not destroy each other's Forward Camps or interrupt players rezzing comrades.
It would be fun just to have a constant stream of mass combat. Maybe we can find out if they fixed the Combat Bug...

H_E · January 22

necro doesn't have any source of major brutality or sorcery and will be forced to run it in potions or be giga nerfed compared to all other classes

xylena_lazarow · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Honestly do we really need to use 3-4 seige at the same time? 99% of pvp is just everyone sitting at the ram on an empty keep.

Yeah it's pretty key to fighting outnumbered at keeps, and getting into keeps with small groups in the first place. I like to smallscale at actual objectives, not just troll towers, not be forced into ball strat, this ruleset completely nukes a lot of what I do with my groups. So that brings the game mode down to whether fighting in zergs will be fun.

Zerg sieges often rely on only a few players who actually know siege tactics while the other 80 zergers derp around. So nerfing the best siege players is gonna be a huge stealth buff to either the ball group strat, or to a big flat dumb player count check. Especially on top of the nerf to individual build power. I'm out unless large scale somehow works.

Avran_Sylt · January 22

Markytous wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm super excited for this. Classes are wildly imbalanced as many others have pointed out, but I think it will be fine since everyone has access to all classes.

I am super pumped that most ally heals will require actual targeting. This is a beautiful change that should have been made on the live servers a long time ago.

Any reason why Sorcerer's Winged Twilight heal is exempt and doesn't require a target?

Could be an opportunity to see "Tab Targeting" allies/groupmates start to be needed. We can target specific enemies to prevent "bodyblocking" the target, so I think with this brilliant shift to manual targeting heals/buffs it would be a need to have that as a general feature going forward. Just an idea!

I’d actually say this is reasoning to remove tab targeting. It removes any element of skillful play in terms of positioning with a target, be it to attack/heal a weak target, or to jump in front of someone in defense.

LinusMain · January 22

IMO if they want performance they should get rid of light attack weaving, at least in Vengeance. It should cut the amount of queries sent by half. I personally wont miss it, and I bet a big chunk of players wont either. Especially newer players.

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Honestly do we really need to use 3-4 seige at the same time? 99% of pvp is just everyone sitting at the ram on an empty keep.

Yeah it's pretty key to fighting outnumbered at keeps, and getting into keeps with small groups in the first place. I like to smallscale at actual objectives, not just troll towers, not be forced into ball strat, this ruleset completely nukes a lot of what I do with my groups. So that brings the game mode down to whether fighting in zergs will be fun.

Zerg sieges often rely on only a few players who actually know siege tactics while the other 80 zergers derp around. So nerfing the best siege players is gonna be a huge stealth buff to either the ball group strat, or to a big flat dumb player count check. Especially on top of the nerf to individual build power. I'm out unless large scale somehow works.

You are clearly missing the entire purpose of the test....... they dont want you to go pvdoor random keeps with 5 people. They solely want large 100v100v100 fights to test the server loads. They aren't redesigning and tailoring pvp at all levels for a single week of testing. Its silly to cry for balance changes or niche playstyle changes. All I do is solo/duo 1vX and I am not crying, my fun over the next year to 5 years is more important than how perfectly balanced one or two nights of pvp is during a scheduled test.

The test solely needs basic core functions which it has. The fact that they are somewhat even close after a few weeks or making essentially a whole new game solely for test purposes is astounding. We have been struggling for 8 years to get involvement from the devs and the second they want to test something people freak out wanting to cancel testing because they don't have a minor buff on a skill they only have for a week.

VixxVexx · January 22

I don't think they'll be able to give each class what it needs, let alone balance them on time. Just look at each incremental PTS patch for the past several years.

Maybe limit the test to 3 classes(NB, DK, Warden) because the others won't be remotely viable. Less classes means even less effects, which was the point of the test no?