Moderation and censorship is out of hand

EvilGoatKing · January 4

I appreciate the people who have double digit "agrees" in this thread for pointing out what appears to be intentional bad faith participation.

Varana · January 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Instead of removing comments you lock threads and punish everyone.

If I may share my perspective on this: The main problem I see is that this principle could be easily abused by trolls (not in this case, but generally speaking). Someone who dislikes a topic could deliberately cause trouble to get a thread locked. But I think that had been mentioned before elsewhere, so I hope it will be discussed in the upcoming meetings.

We plan to look at this as well. And totally understand that could be a tactic. We do not believe that was the case in the two threads noted here, but do understand the concern there. Will add it to my list.

So, will you re-open that "Forum PSA" thread after removing the offending posts?
Or are your "hands forced" to have it remain closed? Who forces them?

And sorry for the follow-up in this thread, as there seems to be no other open at the moment.

---

As for ingame moderation, it would be helpful to know who handles appeals to actions. The same people (essentially, if not individually) as the ones handing out bans and suspensions? How much do they actually know about the game and its context?

SteveCampsOut · January 5

Varana wrote: »

So, will you re-open that "Forum PSA" thread after removing the offending posts?
Or are your "hands forced" to have it remain closed? Who forces them?

Reopening it would go a long way towards proving that they're hearing what we're telling them. They aren't just silencing the bad apples when they close entire threads. They're silencing the voices of all who have participated with respect as well.

Lags · January 5

@ZOS_Kevin i also forgot to mention something in my response to your post, so i guess ill ask it now and see if it gets a reply. An honest question. Why do you guys simply not ban words that you dont want posted in game or on the forums? Im not talking about words that change meaning depending on the context. Im talking about a simple black list of curse words or other words. Why do you leave it open for people to use if you dont want people to use them?

Basically like a profanity filter for a small selection of words that cannot be disabled. Im genuinely curious, and i know others have asked the same thing over the years. I just feel like it could only help support, and stop players from getting their accounts, both in game and on the forums, actioned for a silly reason. Because a lot of people dont realize certain things, like swearing, can get you actioned.

Oceanchanter · January 5

Varana wrote: »

[snip]
As for ingame moderation, it would be helpful to know who handles appeals to actions. The same people (essentially, if not individually) as the ones handing out bans and suspensions? How much do they actually know about the game and its context?

That's a very good question.
And I would like to know as well.

I'm prepared to hear that it's handled by a third party contractior.

For the record, I'm assuming nothing.
Let's just say, I have reasons to not be surprised if that's the answer.
And I will leave it at that.

As to who handles the appeals, this time I would be surprised if it's the same team that issues penalties.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · January 5

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Profoundly disagree with this frankly bizarre assessment of the situation. Seems you’re tuned into some alternative frequency to the one the rest of us are.

The problem, as I see it, is they are willfully ignoring the fact that many of us who are discussing this aren't saying we don't like the rules. We're saying we don't like how they're being misinterpreted in our eyes. As an example. I left one comment a while back that was removed for baiting. All it was, was the dictionary definition of a word being used in said discussion. THAT WAS IT. And I got dinged for baiting. Rules are being misused based on hurt feelings, and that simply can not stand.

Precisely. I disagree with that individuals assessment that we are quibbling the role of rules in the forum, rather than the definition & application of criteria & a lack of coherent uniformity among the admins who are responsible for said application.

Right the actions taken come across as arbitrary much of the time and they are different depending upon which moderator decides to pop in and moderate.

Vaqual · January 5

Since the other thread is not available anymore and forum topics have been touched here I wanted to add another note:

Responding to an older thread occasionally helps to keep track of the timeline and can also help to consolidate the discussion (which is something the mods usually actively enforce). Sometimes I find that a person replies to an older thread, well aware of the time gap, but then the thread will get closed regardless. I don't find that particularly productive. Latest example:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8247125#Comment_8247125

Of course no one is going through the hassle to appeal something likes this, but I would just like to see more situational awareness when it comes to moderation in these cases.

TaSheen · January 5

Well, yeah. I have to say that closing a thread in bug reports, where the bug has NOT been fixed, is just... um.... silly.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · January 5

TaSheen wrote: »

Well, yeah. I have to say that closing a thread in bug reports, where the bug has NOT been fixed, is just... um.... silly.

A slight tangent but you would think a bug like that is low hanging fruit and would be fixed quickly to pump up the bugs fixed numbers.

Back on topic. I agree Bug Forum posts should not be closed until they are fixed with an appropriate update as to which patch the fix is in or closed as will not fix with an explanation as to why.

DeadlySerious · January 5

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

^this

DeadlySerious · January 5

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

^this

[snip]

Or maybe even step back and do some self reflection before reacting when someone says something you don't want to hear? I've been told that's what some adults do sometimes.

[edited to remove quote]

Oceanchanter · January 5

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Kevin already have said those things are handled by two different teams.
And that they will tackle those issues this month.

Should Kevin pull this thread up or take notes when talking about in-game moderation, I want the concerns about in-game moderation be clearly communicated to have the best shot at making things better and bring back ESO from before the tool was implemented.

Syldras · January 5

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

SerafinaWaterstar · January 5

The community never needed the AI big brother to monitor chats.
That's essentially the main point. Why fix a system that worked for all those years?

I loathe AI. The push to try & insert it into everyday life so some can make their investment money back is awful.

I am not too keen on too much moderation, as I do not have the right not to be offended. Many things people say and do, both in game or irl, do offend & annoy me, but unless they are pretty heinous & should be reported, I just ignore & move on.

Don’t have anyone on my ‘ignore’ list. Just have game set up so strangers cannot contact me, and if I do find someone irritating beyond belief, I usually take a deep breath & ignore. Or use mild or creative ways to comment.

But excessive moderation is not a good look. But then as no-one can give examples, I cannot see for myself if it actually was, or if its hyperbole. 😁

wilykcat · January 5

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

blktauna · January 5

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Don’t have anyone on my ‘ignore’ list. Just have game set up so strangers cannot contact me, and if I do find someone irritating beyond belief, I usually take a deep breath & ignore. Or use mild or creative ways to comment.

But excessive moderation is not a good look. But then as no-one can give examples, I cannot see for myself if it actually was, or if its hyperbole. 😁

Unfortunately some of those creative ways will still get you actioned. And its never the same twice or by the same mod... very poor look indeed.

Oceanchanter · January 5

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

I've no idea.
I'm obviously new here on the forum.
I don't know what did I walk into seeing all the talks about forum overmoderation, people getting warnings for derailing topics and so on.

blktauna wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Don’t have anyone on my ‘ignore’ list. Just have game set up so strangers cannot contact me, and if I do find someone irritating beyond belief, I usually take a deep breath & ignore. Or use mild or creative ways to comment.

But excessive moderation is not a good look. But then as no-one can give examples, I cannot see for myself if it actually was, or if its hyperbole. 😁

Unfortunately some of those creative ways will still get you actioned. And its never the same twice or by the same mod... very poor look indeed.

Kind of "good CSA, bad CSA" situation (like "good cop, bad cop", for the record).

The only people I ignore are the gold scammers. I don't want to see their advertising.
I've never had a situation when I blocked someone for harassment, in ESO at least.

Lags · January 5

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

the distention doesn't even matter. This is just people nitpicking. The problem is with zenimaxs moderation across the board. In game, on the forums, during their twitch streams. Imo its silly to scold people for not making a separate thread. And im not even really talking about the person you replied too. I understand they probably dont want this thread shut down as well. I just mean it was silly for the mod to post about it earlier in the thread. Especially since the other thread has now been sent into the void.

Lags · January 5

blktauna wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Don’t have anyone on my ‘ignore’ list. Just have game set up so strangers cannot contact me, and if I do find someone irritating beyond belief, I usually take a deep breath & ignore. Or use mild or creative ways to comment.

But excessive moderation is not a good look. But then as no-one can give examples, I cannot see for myself if it actually was, or if its hyperbole. 😁

Unfortunately some of those creative ways will still get you actioned. And its never the same twice or by the same mod... very poor look indeed.

ya and many of the rules in their tos and coc are open to interpretation. So depending on who you get you may get a different result. Ive had a couple issues where i asked one person from zos if something was ok, after i was actioned for it, after I explained the full context, and they said it was fine. Only to change their tune when i explained that my account was literally actioned for the exact thing i messaged. And then i just get silence or excuses. this has happened to me 3 times, twice on the forums and once in game.

CatoUnchained · January 6

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Kevin already have said those things are handled by two different teams.
And that they will tackle those issues this month.

Should Kevin pull this thread up or take notes when talking about in-game moderation, I want the concerns about in-game moderation be clearly communicated to have the best shot at making things better and bring back ESO from before the tool was implemented.

What I see are a lot of the same problems with in game moderation as is happening with the official forum moderation; too many false positives are resulting in action against the player or poster. I don't separate the two. In both cases it goes to the company policies at ZOS.

CatoUnchained · January 6

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

blktauna · January 6

CatoUnchained wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They indeed do not. I have asked for clarifications/explanations of decisions and not once has a reply arrived.

SteveCampsOut · January 6

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Kevin already have said those things are handled by two different teams.
And that they will tackle those issues this month.

Should Kevin pull this thread up or take notes when talking about in-game moderation, I want the concerns about in-game moderation be clearly communicated to have the best shot at making things better and bring back ESO from before the tool was implemented.

I honestly don't see the need for two threads. They're both concerned about moderation. Kevin is the one who apparently brought the forum discussion here after the PSA thread was closed. Honestly. At this point, I think the ball is in their hands anyway. There's not really any more input I can give on either subject than what I've already given. I've only ever had one "Social" ban from inside the game, and it was caused by an addon. I'm not one to talk to people in game or get into fights either. I just block when offended and continue on with my day. I don't report people in game. I've seen no need for it.

wilykcat · January 6

CatoUnchained wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.

spartaxoxo · January 6

blktauna wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They indeed do not. I have asked for clarifications/explanations of decisions and not once has a reply arrived.

There was a mod that used and even left the very rare informative/friendly comment too. I miss that. It was a long time ago.

SilverBride · January 6

wilykcat wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.

I tried that once.

AtriaKhorist · January 6

wilykcat wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.

Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?

DragonRacer · January 6

At least it was an informal warning, but be advised that simply using a very common online acronym for a phrase of frustration - three certain letters strung together - is considered bypassing the profanity filter here.

That thought honestly never even occurred to me because that acronym is so commonly used everywhere online as much as something fully innocent like LOL is (which means Laughing Out Loud, by the way).

So, today I learned. Be forewarned, you can actually not type a literal curse word at all and it will be viewed as you bypassing the profanity filter here.

TaSheen · January 6

Well.... some milder ones still seem to be at least ignored if not really okay.

wilykcat · January 6

AtriaKhorist wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?

Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.

If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.

Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.

They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.

Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?

I can post my own experiences and opinions here just like everyone else.