CrazyKitty wrote: »

Antrox41 wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

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ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.

It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".

Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.

Can you post those vods?

Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.

Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up


Novellli always looks to fight other groups


Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly


These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.

Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.

Uhhhhh no....... Paleorc is not solo, he hasn't been solo in years, he will occasionally be but he primarily now plays in a group. LoM IS a coordinated ballgroup, idk what kind of definition you are basing yours off of but it seems to be inherently wrong. Bobbys group is just a bunch of pugs said to build blight or some random meta set and follow him around, they are not coordinated in anyway nor have ever been, and also the only reason they attack other groups is because his entire group runs blightseed, matter of fact he usually sits around the faction because his group alone cannot even handle fighting a ballgroup half the time. Lastly, most ballgroups DO fight eachother, what makes you think they don't?

ForumSavant wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

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ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.

It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".

Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.

Can you post those vods?

Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.

Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up


Novellli always looks to fight other groups


Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly


These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.

Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.

I also play on PC NA every day. What you see happening is exactly the same thing I see happening.

There are groups and there are ball groups. They are very different. Anyone can form a group and benefit from cross healing. Forming a ball group is a totally different thing. Ball group builds tend to be so specialized that they are totally impotent outside of the group. Seems like only those of us who've actually played in ball groups before know the difference.

What are some ballgroups on PC/NA then?

Indriks, LoM, Fake News, Adrestria, Enchiladas, 3.5, SLAYER, BONED, Barcodes, Xans Army, Army Of The Covenant, Wolves Of Fenris, Jaegers, Kids With Issues, Nefarrius 51, Wolves of Evermore, F-Tier.

Prob more that im not remembering.

Slayer is getting close to being a ball group, but they aren't quite there yet. Xans army isn't even close. N51 is an official ball group. Kids with issues are trying, but not a ball group. Tyr was probably the most extreme ball group I know of, but I might be biased because I ran with them for a while, but they retired.

ioResult wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

What does this comment even mean, what is your differentiating factor between what is and what isn't a ballgroup regarding these groups?

If you have to ask this question then you don't know what an actual ball group is.

All ball group is more than an zerg, even much more than an organized zerg. It is constructed just like a trials group in PvE is constructed: with very narrowly defined roles where members are required to have specific builds, specific CP, specific skills, and a pre-defined specific rotation they do to fulfill their narrow role in the group - exactly as these same players do in their PvE Trials group.

As of now, because of shield stacking, heal stacking and other silliness introduced by Scribing, these ball groups are being designed to literally be immortal. They can go anywhere on the map they want, run the whole map if they want, take any keep they want, hold that keep for as long as they want and just farm casuals, small scale PvPers, and even organized zergs.

And because of their (everyone knows macro'd) rotations of AoEs to stack heals and shields and light attack until everyone's Ulti is ready for an Ulti-Dump, they overwhelm the GCD on the server and cause lag for everyone and even take advantage of that lag to Ulti-bomb anyone they can catch in their Rush of Agony brokenness.

That's very different from an organized zerg.

So for example, bobbyblaster's organized Red zerg is one of the few that has been trying to use Azureblight to blow up the Blue and Yellow ball groups that- EVERY NIGHT - both just attack the Red home keeps, steal the Red scrolls with impunity and gate Red every night instead of fighting each other.

The Reds call it (rightfully so) Team Green because the Blue and Yellow ball groups don't fight each other unless perhaps the Reds decide to just leave in disgust on any given night because they're tired of doing nothing every night during prime time but defending their home keeps, getting run over by the ball groups and then getting gated by the hangers on of Blue and Yellow that follow their ball groups.

forum_gpt wrote: »

Well, since Azureblight isn’t going to carry anymore, maybe it’s time to remember the most ancient and effective counter: siege.

Ballgroups might be tanky, but they’re not out-tanking siege + pugs.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Getting back to the OP, because that's far more interesting and relevant than the semantics of what constitutes a ball group or what the devs intended when much of the original development team left the game when Obama was president, I think it would be a welcome communication from ZOS to comment on their views of the prevalence of shield/heal stacking in Cyrodiil. Do they feel this is healthy for the PvP experience? Do they feel there are adequate counters in the game to target such tactic? Why have they not made any balance adjustments in this area since it has been for years the most common consistent negative point expressed in feedback with regards to PvP.

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Nerf ball group threads have existed ever since I can remember. Ball groups will never be nerfed simply because they are the result of min maxing a group of 12 and utilizing whats available in the game to its full potential. Therefore by default ball groups will always be better than ungrouped mass of players who do not coordinate or optimize as a group. Ball groups have been nerfed numerous times but they always find another way to optimize their group. More often than not things that are introduced to counter ball groups ultimately get the most use out of ball groups. Good example is plaguebreak. Ball groups just stopped purging and now every group has at least 1 plaguebreak user.

One argument I see is that it takes no skill to run in ball groups. What people don't seem to understand is that skill level and play style differs greatly between groups. The unskilled groups will wipe very easily in most situations, be it because they were hit by another group or just a lot of enemy pugs. Some of these groups will also become clueless when their leader dies and run around like headless chickens. Oddly enough, no one seems to take notice when this happens, at least certainly not in the forums. Other groups will run more than 12 to compensate for lack of skill, others will stack with their faction or with other groups and will greatly outnumber. If your faction is struggling with a singular ball group of 12 then most likely you're fighting one of the better groups who knows what they're doing. A handful of these players are also pretty decent solo or as a small group.

However, the biggest issues I see that should probably be toned down is rush of agony and shield stacking. Rush is probably the biggest one, especially now that they buffed the range. Unsurprisingly this so called "nerf" which added the delay but greatly increased pull range turned out to be a huge buff. Now people are getting pulled from ridiculous distances into instant death. Not sure where the counter play is there, especially when you get pulled out of camera range at times. This has been the biggest crutch as of late to securing kills by ball groups, instead of the traditional way of baiting and kiting players into chokes. Was way easier to avoid pushes before pull sets, they were very telegraphed if you pay minimum attention to your surroundings. And the cooldown for rush is ridiculously short. Like once every 8 seconds is insane for a set that doesn't even follow cc rules. Heck even dark convergence follows cc rules and it has a 25 second cooldown.

Second overtuned thing is shield stacking. Arcanist is being nerfed a bit, but scribing shields stacked with barriers makes it extremely hard to kill groups. Some groups run a lot of Arkasis with potion cooldown glyphs so you can just rotate barriers every few seconds. Pillagers pairs well with this set up. A lot of groups are running around with 40k hp and 40k wards without even using barrier at times. This is a way bigger issue than cross healing. You essentially need 80k of burst at least.

There's also too many sources of damage mitigation. Was probably not a good idea to add major protection to flare and have 100% uptime. You get a ton of mitigation from cp as well, but since it isn't as big of an issue I won't elaborate on that.

Any changes made to nerf ball groups should always be thought out better, or you'll keep getting repeats of plague break and pull sets. Nerfs to harmony and proxy det also hurt solo bombers and small group bombers. Not a good idea to nerf damage and then buff the heck out of stuff like damage shields. So now groups are tankier and you have less options available for actually damaging them on top of that.

• Just one example of this trinity: being make over time effects not stack, like they used to. Suddenly groups cant stack 12 players worth of the most powerful hot on one player. Zergs would be slightly hurt as in general they are less efficient and not as coordinated(one player may have a few copy heals on them, which would no longer stack). Solo players would remain the same, but would benefit from not being run down by 30x of the go to dot/proc set that is undodgeable.