What is the intended counterplay to "ball groups" in PVP?

gariondavey

Joy_Division wrote: »

As someone who has played in organized groups in the past, I can shed some light on this part of ZOS's explanation.

as the set's unique functionality between multiple wearers can create some incredibly overwhelming experiences with no clear counter play. Rather than try and find a balance between PvE and PvP for this set, and ultimately compromise so it doesn't feel particularly strong in either, we're removing the damage scaling effects against players – as Plaguebreak already fits the bill of the PvP big boom set.

While the Azureblight set does prompt organized groups to immediately note the use and potential dangers of this set, there absolutely is counterplay - most notably, spreading out or breaking off from the current course of action and taking Line of Sight (like literally every other player in Cyrodiil has to do when confronted with a dangerous situation and high damage). I felt in the better organized groups I played in, this set was more of a nuisance than an "overwhelming experience." If we did die to Blight Seed, it was only because the 30+ other players were spamming the crap out of siege, ranged interrupts, chains, etc. When I've played with less experienced/organized groups, I did feel this set was more potent and more of a threat. But still nothing I would say is beyond what the organized group could handle if they just got better or played more intelligently.

In short, I think the threat this set poses in Cyrodiil is mostly a learn-to-play issue.

I could be persuaded this set was in need of an adjustment in Battlegrounds because that format naturally lend themselves to basically the entire team of 4 often stacking on each other. In the few 8v8 clips I saw, I can see how Azure spam would be an issue there. I felt the lowered base damage was enough to at least see if those concerns were addressed. The exlusion of proc on players was not necessary.

I can tell you Plaguebreak does *not* fit the role described in this developer comment. It is true every organized group does have one person running Plaguebreak. Yes, that's it: one. It is not for the big "booms" - those rarely happen - but to shut down Purge spam. That is is function (and it's quite good at it). If it provided big booms, more than one DD would wear it. Nope, put on Vicious Death if that is needed. It's much better at the booms.

If we are going to talk about "overwhelming experiences" when it comes to Cyrodiil, these are the three that top my list:

1. A Huge Map with a tiny population Cap. It is overwhelming enough for me to get bored pretty quickly and log out. That is, if I even have the patience to sit through an hour long que because so few people are allowed to play in cyrodiil.
2. The Rush of Agony set is far more abused, annoying, and overwhelming than Azureblight. If I am logged in by myself, Azureblight is of zero concern to me at all. It is nothing. I forget the set exists. To say this set is an overwhelming experience is misleading. Much of the Cyrodiil population is not overwhelmed by Azureblight. But Rush of Agony is overwhelming to everybody: get sucked in from way greater than the 12 meters listed because of the most recent changes, and breaks the ESO standard of respecting CC immunity to players who have been forcibly moved, which existed for very good reasons. You want to talk about "incredibly overwhelming experiences with no clear counter play"? That's what happens after Rush of Agony sucks you in: get feared because no CC immunity and insta-die to PBAOE spam. I'd much rather deal with Azureblight and it's not even close.
3. The dozen shields and HoTs covering every player in Organized Groups (a big reason why the better ones can shrug off Azureblight). It's just a bad mechanic. There's a reason it's very rare that fantasy games allow the same named buff to stack: it's too easy to abuse and makes the game not fun. I play in groups and I can say it is very boring to fight another group because we're all been doing the same thing for so long. 3-2-1 Proxy, you must play a Warden because it has the only delayed burst damage skill in the game that can break through the dozen shields the other group has, and just charge in a straight line at the one target the lead called. Sure, the better group almost always wins. But it's so boring. I'd be thrilled with anything that prompted us (i.e,, organized groups) to actually use our brains and do something different.

It is true this set has come up in feedback. But other issues have come up more often and I would have liked to see efforts directed in those higher priority issues.

@ZOS_Kevin please check out this comment and the OP from react.

gronoxvx

The only difference between ball groups and zergs is that ball groups are more organized in terms of timing ults for offense and defense. Thats it

If you nerf ball groups, you nerf zergs. Plain and simple.

If zos limits heal stacking, then oh boy the ball groups will be strong, because all the zergs/groups they go up against will be at the same disadvantage as them.

There are plenty of counters to ballgroups out there which are very successful, however people want an easy or 1 button solution which wont happen without impacting zergs and pissing off a majority of cyro players. Look at the outcry when they turned off healing out of groups. All the zerg healers lost their crap about it.

ioResult

gronoxvx wrote: »

The only difference between ball groups and zergs is that ball groups are more organized in terms of timing ults for offense and defense. Thats it

If you nerf ball groups, you nerf zergs. Plain and simple.

Yeah...and?

There are enough self-heals and shields in the game now with Scribing that yes, everyone but the clowns running around in ball groups causing server lag and annoying real PvPers would vote to nerf the healing stacks and shield stacks in a heart beat.

Ball groups abuse the GCD and cause lag. Everyone hates it. Skills don't fire, toggle skills don't turn off. You get de-sync'd and are dead before you know what's going on. You know who causes ALL of that?

BALL GROUPS

How any of you think it takes any sort of talent to stack heals and shields then call out "OK...on me...DUMP ULTI DUMP ULTI!" is mind boggling.

It was said in zone chat one time and its true, "Ball groups are the refuge of the talentless."

Zergs are now also abusing Rush of Agony too. Heaven forbid ZOS implement a decent range check on that set or nerf it because zergs have now all taken their cue from the ball groups.

So yes, ZOS please, nerf heal stacking, nerf shield stacking and make AoE heals in-group only again. The vast majority of Cyrodiil regulars will not complain if it gets rid of ball groups and the unnecessary lag that they cause for everyone in Cyrodiil.

Turtle_Bot

It will NOT have the same effect on zergs as on ball groups and every ball group player knows this, hence why they so vigorously defend/deflect this point every time it gets mentioned.

Nerfing heal/shield stacking affects ball groups and their 20+ HoTs/shields being cast every second much more significantly than it will ever affect a zerg with their maybe 2-3 HoTs and maybe 1 shield being cast reactively once every 5-10 seconds.

Deimus

gronoxvx wrote: »

The only difference between ball groups and zergs is that ball groups are more organized in terms of timing ults for offense and defense. Thats it

If you nerf ball groups, you nerf zergs. Plain and simple.

If zos limits heal stacking, then oh boy the ball groups will be strong, because all the zergs/groups they go up against will be at the same disadvantage as them.

There are plenty of counters to ballgroups out there which are very successful, however people want an easy or 1 button solution which wont happen without impacting zergs and pissing off a majority of cyro players. Look at the outcry when they turned off healing out of groups. All the zerg healers lost their crap about it.

Quit the grift. If balls are limited to one instance or each HoT or shield then a bomb, coldfire, meatbag, and ults can hurt them from stacking up like they're connected at the intestines. As it is now they can get hit by all of that and not even have their hp budge. They are abusing poor design in an area of the game that is heavily neglected. Remove heal and shield stacking and Cyrodiil will be a much better place. The balls might even find out they like PvP when they actually engage with it instead of hiding behind 10 stacks of various HoTs and shields. Such bad combat design. If they respected what was once the flagship of their mmo it would've been addressed years ago.

SkaraMinoc

Ball groups buffed by Scribing now have free reign to take any keep they want and spawn camp it.

RaidingTraiding

Nerf ball group threads have existed ever since I can remember. Ball groups will never be nerfed simply because they are the result of min maxing a group of 12 and utilizing whats available in the game to its full potential. Therefore by default ball groups will always be better than ungrouped mass of players who do not coordinate or optimize as a group. Ball groups have been nerfed numerous times but they always find another way to optimize their group. More often than not things that are introduced to counter ball groups ultimately get the most use out of ball groups. Good example is plaguebreak. Ball groups just stopped purging and now every group has at least 1 plaguebreak user.

One argument I see is that it takes no skill to run in ball groups. What people don't seem to understand is that skill level and play style differs greatly between groups. The unskilled groups will wipe very easily in most situations, be it because they were hit by another group or just a lot of enemy pugs. Some of these groups will also become clueless when their leader dies and run around like headless chickens. Oddly enough, no one seems to take notice when this happens, at least certainly not in the forums. Other groups will run more than 12 to compensate for lack of skill, others will stack with their faction or with other groups and will greatly outnumber. If your faction is struggling with a singular ball group of 12 then most likely you're fighting one of the better groups who knows what they're doing. A handful of these players are also pretty decent solo or as a small group.

However, the biggest issues I see that should probably be toned down is rush of agony and shield stacking. Rush is probably the biggest one, especially now that they buffed the range. Unsurprisingly this so called "nerf" which added the delay but greatly increased pull range turned out to be a huge buff. Now people are getting pulled from ridiculous distances into instant death. Not sure where the counter play is there, especially when you get pulled out of camera range at times. This has been the biggest crutch as of late to securing kills by ball groups, instead of the traditional way of baiting and kiting players into chokes. Was way easier to avoid pushes before pull sets, they were very telegraphed if you pay minimum attention to your surroundings. And the cooldown for rush is ridiculously short. Like once every 8 seconds is insane for a set that doesn't even follow cc rules. Heck even dark convergence follows cc rules and it has a 25 second cooldown.

Second overtuned thing is shield stacking. Arcanist is being nerfed a bit, but scribing shields stacked with barriers makes it extremely hard to kill groups. Some groups run a lot of Arkasis with potion cooldown glyphs so you can just rotate barriers every few seconds. Pillagers pairs well with this set up. A lot of groups are running around with 40k hp and 40k wards without even using barrier at times. This is a way bigger issue than cross healing. You essentially need 80k of burst at least.

There's also too many sources of damage mitigation. Was probably not a good idea to add major protection to flare and have 100% uptime. You get a ton of mitigation from cp as well, but since it isn't as big of an issue I won't elaborate on that.

Any changes made to nerf ball groups should always be thought out better, or you'll keep getting repeats of plague break and pull sets. Nerfs to harmony and proxy det also hurt solo bombers and small group bombers. Not a good idea to nerf damage and then buff the heck out of stuff like damage shields. So now groups are tankier and you have less options available for actually damaging them on top of that.

forum_gpt

React wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

With today's PTS notes, the Azureblight Reaper set was made to no longer affect players. While this set has been somewhat overperforming recently, it is the ONLY thing in the entire game capable of effectively combating the "ball groups" which have running rampant and out of control for several years now. There have been hundreds of posts here on the forums regarding the issue of "ball group" effectiveness/behaviors, and yet it seems that they've only been repetitively buffed over the past few years with no significant nerfs to speak of.

These groups are currently running around with every player possessing above-emperor level stats; 40k+ HP with 20k worth of shields on them at any given moment, 10k+ healing per second in HOTS alone on them at any given moment, nearly every single buff and buff set in the game active at all times, etc. There no longer exists things, outside of azureblight reaper and DRASTICALLY higher numbers of players + siege, that are capable of overcoming the absurd stats and defensive capabilities these groups possess.

Years ago during the cross healing tests, zenimax appropriately acknowledged "ball grouping behaviors" as problematic for server performance, especially in regards to the repetitive spamming of HOTS/AOE heals. More recently they even added the "snake in the stars" set after a slew of posts regarding the egregious HOT stacking gained traction, but they gave the set a global cooldown rather than a per target cooldown, effectively making it completely worthless against the targets it was actually intended to counter. It seems odd that they're aware of how problematic these behaviors are, but are unwilling to provide adequate counterplay to them or to address them directly with balance changes.

The changes to the scaling of azureblight for PVE today would have been fine in PVP, allowing it to do less damage to fewer players but more damage to 8+ people. That would have actually been a good and well informed change. Removing it from PVP entirely without providing any other counterplay to "ball groups" is a huge mistake.

I'd really like some clarity regarding what zenimax thinks of "ball grouping". Are they happy with the power level achievable by these groups? Do they think there is adequate counterplay to this playstyle currently?

you expect to kill ballgroups by running rallying cry and nmg. thats not it chief

Tommy_The_Gun

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Ball groups have been nerfed numerous times but they always find another way to optimize their group.

Actually... no. Ball Groups have never received a single direct nerf for over 10 years. ZOS was claiming in dev comment in patch notes that they were supposed to be nerfs, but it was not true, every, single, time.

You have mentioned Plaguebreak set. I remember that it was a good counter to Ball Groups when used with Silver Shards, but the thing is that Plaguebreak was nerfed in a hotfix a week after launch or something like that. It was ZOS mistake to introduce this set in 1 st place. Now they are doing same thing with Azureblight set, as it can counter ball groups & ZOS does not want Ball Groups to have a counter. At least this is what it looks like.

Ball Groups imho are a perfect benchmark of where the game is not balanced as they push everything into extremes. ZOS should step in every single time those groups were "useing tools that they have available" (translation: abused the hell out of certain mechanics).

Instead of adding sets, they should adjust stuff via battle spirt. Right now we have HoT stacking & Shields and those should be addressed via battle spirit. Same as in the past, ball groups were abusing purges, back then they should have add some condition to battle spirit. That is how balancing things should look like.

Don't get me wrong - 12 man organized group should be strong and should be a force to be reckon with. But now, it went as far as to transforming noobs into immortal gods. As you mentioned, there are different skill levels amongst ball group players, but even the lowest skill players can become immortal. This is the real issue. Ball Groups & ZOS not doing anything about it at all for over 10 years to address the problem has lead to most people quiting PvP completely and I don't think this is salvageable.

necro_the_crafter

12 man organised group should be well composed, and each player should be skilled individually to pull off any weight. Otherwise its ESO PvP.

Im my MMO expirience most decent games had a diverse roles that you have to fill in to get an effective PvP party. For eso its just 1 pull set, everyone press their BIG button on 3, and HoT rotation from every group member. No dedicated cc-tanks, healers, Range DDs and Mage DDs. No interaction with sieges. No sets/builds diversity. No obvious counter.

kookie

It's simply not true that ballgroups avoid each other, we actively hunt each other. The only ballgroups that don't fight each other are on the same team, stacking together to kill the better groups. Meeting one in a pug farm is fun cause they get zerged down, it's hilarious because they were farming our pugs all night and the pugs sing our praises. We only let them have the pug farm if they best us or there's good sportmanship in a gvg, which is rare.
Ballgroups are not a refuge for the talentless, you really have no idea how much skill is required to run in these groups, It is literally end game group pvp.
And we are hardly "gold (ap) farming" we have limitless ap already, we do it for the clips and dopamine hits.
The change to blight on the pvp side was necessary, while it was mostly manageable, some players who knew what they were doing were abusing it to ridiculous extremes, the scaling for pve seems too much for sure, but I won't miss it in Cyrodiil.

- @kookie ballgroup enjoyer

acastanza_ESO

kookie wrote: »

It's simply not true that ballgroups avoid each other, we actively hunt each other. The only ballgroups that don't fight each other are on the same team, stacking together to kill the better groups. Meeting one in a pug farm is fun cause they get zerged down, it's hilarious because they were farming our pugs all night and the pugs sing our praises. We only let them have the pug farm if they best us or there's good sportmanship in a gvg, which is rare.
Ballgroups are not a refuge for the talentless, you really have no idea how much skill is required to run in these groups, It is literally end game group pvp.
And we are hardly "gold (ap) farming" we have limitless ap already, we do it for the clips and dopamine hits.
The change to blight on the pvp side was necessary, while it was mostly manageable, some players who knew what they were doing were abusing it to ridiculous extremes, the scaling for pve seems too much for sure, but I won't miss it in Cyrodiil.

- @kookie ballgroup enjoyer

L.M.A.O.
The only time I've ever seen ballgroups not avoid each other was when they were on the same faction and stacking.

React

forum_gpt wrote: »

React wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

With today's PTS notes, the Azureblight Reaper set was made to no longer affect players. While this set has been somewhat overperforming recently, it is the ONLY thing in the entire game capable of effectively combating the "ball groups" which have running rampant and out of control for several years now. There have been hundreds of posts here on the forums regarding the issue of "ball group" effectiveness/behaviors, and yet it seems that they've only been repetitively buffed over the past few years with no significant nerfs to speak of.

These groups are currently running around with every player possessing above-emperor level stats; 40k+ HP with 20k worth of shields on them at any given moment, 10k+ healing per second in HOTS alone on them at any given moment, nearly every single buff and buff set in the game active at all times, etc. There no longer exists things, outside of azureblight reaper and DRASTICALLY higher numbers of players + siege, that are capable of overcoming the absurd stats and defensive capabilities these groups possess.

Years ago during the cross healing tests, zenimax appropriately acknowledged "ball grouping behaviors" as problematic for server performance, especially in regards to the repetitive spamming of HOTS/AOE heals. More recently they even added the "snake in the stars" set after a slew of posts regarding the egregious HOT stacking gained traction, but they gave the set a global cooldown rather than a per target cooldown, effectively making it completely worthless against the targets it was actually intended to counter. It seems odd that they're aware of how problematic these behaviors are, but are unwilling to provide adequate counterplay to them or to address them directly with balance changes.

The changes to the scaling of azureblight for PVE today would have been fine in PVP, allowing it to do less damage to fewer players but more damage to 8+ people. That would have actually been a good and well informed change. Removing it from PVP entirely without providing any other counterplay to "ball groups" is a huge mistake.

I'd really like some clarity regarding what zenimax thinks of "ball grouping". Are they happy with the power level achievable by these groups? Do they think there is adequate counterplay to this playstyle currently?

you expect to kill ballgroups by running rallying cry and nmg. thats not it chief

Please show me where I suggested a solo 1vX player should be able to kill a ballgroup. I'll wait.

Antrox41

kookie wrote: »

It's simply not true that ballgroups avoid each other, we actively hunt each other. The only ballgroups that don't fight each other are on the same team, stacking together to kill the better groups. Meeting one in a pug farm is fun cause they get zerged down, it's hilarious because they were farming our pugs all night and the pugs sing our praises. We only let them have the pug farm if they best us or there's good sportmanship in a gvg, which is rare.
Ballgroups are not a refuge for the talentless, you really have no idea how much skill is required to run in these groups, It is literally end game group pvp.
And we are hardly "gold (ap) farming" we have limitless ap already, we do it for the clips and dopamine hits.
The change to blight on the pvp side was necessary, while it was mostly manageable, some players who knew what they were doing were abusing it to ridiculous extremes, the scaling for pve seems too much for sure, but I won't miss it in Cyrodiil.

- @kookie ballgroup enjoyer

Fr they talk about talentless meanwhile stacking blight takes literally no brain or effort. Blight has also introduced some really trolly and cringy behavior in some people. In my group in particular we've had a particular small scale group of blighters follow us around, faction hop and stream snipe our leader to the worlds end. So to say I wont miss Blight would be an understatement.

Stafford197

kookie wrote: »

It's simply not true that ballgroups avoid each other, we actively hunt each other. The only ballgroups that don't fight each other are on the same team, stacking together to kill the better groups. Meeting one in a pug farm is fun cause they get zerged down, it's hilarious because they were farming our pugs all night and the pugs sing our praises. We only let them have the pug farm if they best us or there's good sportmanship in a gvg, which is rare.
Ballgroups are not a refuge for the talentless, you really have no idea how much skill is required to run in these groups, It is literally end game group pvp.
And we are hardly "gold (ap) farming" we have limitless ap already, we do it for the clips and dopamine hits.
The change to blight on the pvp side was necessary, while it was mostly manageable, some players who knew what they were doing were abusing it to ridiculous extremes, the scaling for pve seems too much for sure, but I won't miss it in Cyrodiil.

- @kookie ballgroup enjoyer

Many years ago it’s true that ballgroup gameplay required a lot of skill. It used to be lots of fun running a Tava’s Favor Negate/CC Sorc Tank alongside generally squishy damage dealers. Efficient movement, effective siege oils, perfectly timed CC and tactics, and good callouts were key because if a large zerg ran over us we would die for sure.

But nowadays? I rarely played Cyro from 2021-2024, but I did join my ballgroup guild once this patch for a whole day to experience high end modern ballgroup gameplay. All I can say is, as long we built correctly and casted defensive skills, we were practically immortal. And yet we still had tremendous damage and CC capabilities in our group.

The experience became stale very fast because it was truly brain rot gameplay. At least if I play BGs I have to actually experience PvP.
But anyway, my PvP time is now spent on other games (although I’ll give the new BGs a chance)

ForumSavant

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

Aldoss

Love all the circular arguments that keep coming back around every time this topic gains some sort of traction.

"Organized groups should always win against zergs of disorganized pugs"

No one is denying that.

Organized Group =/= Ball group

The two are very distinct. A ball group is 100% a product of poorly designed mechanics coupled with a healthy dose of denial, neglect, and straight up ignorance from the combat team.

12 versions of the same hot is not some 5head play. It's specifically manipulating a mechanic that ZOS never imagined would be used in the way ball groups are using it.

No one wants one person to be able to kill a ball group. What we want is for there ANY mechanic in the game that gives even a glimmer of hope that they can be killed.

Bal groupers are the people that take a good thing, such as the open ended "play how you want" mission of the game, and then suck the marrow out of the bone so hard that they choke on the bone.

Congrats. You ruined the game. The only recourse we have is to demand that ZOS fix this egregious exploitation of a mechanic that would never have been designed in this way. Trials need 2 of a heal to stack. Cap it there. That's where the design comes from and will continue to come from. Cross healing can stay, but 12 vigors and 12 shields need to go asap.

JustLovely

.

ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

ForumSavant

JustLovely wrote: »

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ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

JustLovely

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

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ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.

It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".

forum_gpt

Well, since Azureblight isn’t going to carry anymore, maybe it’s time to remember the most ancient and effective counter: siege.

Ballgroups might be tanky, but they’re not out-tanking siege + pugs.

Joy_Division

Well, unfortunately another thread that devolved into a waste of recriminations.

I for one would have like to see a developer respond to the original post.

gronoxvx

JustLovely wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

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ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.

It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".

Doesnt matter how much experience you have. What youre describing is the complete opposite on other servers. Come to xbox na or watch some streams and youll see bgs battling each other constantly.

React

Joy_Division wrote: »

Well, unfortunately another thread that devolved into a waste of recriminations.

I for one would have like to see a developer respond to the original post.

It is impossible to have any sort of constructive conversation here without people joining in to bait and derail. I can't even blame the developers for ignoring these threads when this is what they frequently devolve into. Wish we had some other outlet to give feedback and see it acknowledged.

Major_Mangle

forum_gpt wrote: »

Well, since Azureblight isn’t going to carry anymore, maybe it’s time to remember the most ancient and effective counter: siege.

Ballgroups might be tanky, but they’re not out-tanking siege + pugs.

Ohh please, there are ballgroups who facetank the current azureblight + siege + pugs/faction stacks without much problems. I´ve seen logs from these groups sitting at close to 80-100k HPS, no amount of siege is gonna take down those groups.

SaffronCitrusflower

gronoxvx wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

.

ForumSavant wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.

Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.

They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.

Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.

All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?

This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol

I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.

Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.

It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.

It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".

Doesnt matter how much experience you have. What youre describing is the complete opposite on other servers. Come to xbox na or watch some streams and youll see bgs battling each other constantly.

The same game boxes that people keep posting on this forum that have such low populations that ZOS needs to implement cross play?

It will always be a mystery to me why people invest in a gamebox or expect to have a first class gaming experience using a game box. In my opinion the first major misstep ZOS made with ESO was releasing the game to game box.

darvaria

There is NO intended nerf to ball groups. The opposite, they are nerfing the set that actually was a counter to them.

ZOS WANTS ball groups.

The only counter is not to play when they are on.

Thumbless_Bot

People play the game they way they want. Ball groups, small scale, duels, etc.

If two 12 person groups want to all be 60k hp permablock tanks and each group stand on one of two flags, take keeps and engage in zero combat, then that's how they want to play.

It is up to you to either engage or not. If you choose to engage then it is up to you to play the game and figure out how to counter that play style. The tools available to combat these teams should be fair. Zos position is that ab is not fair because there is no counter play.

I choose to not engage, which I feel is the best strategy, because I do not want to spend my time trying to burn down these types of groups.

I do the same thing when I encounter enemies I know are wearing, using broken sets and or tactics. I disengage because I don't want to play that game

acastanza_ESO

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

People play the game they way they want. Ball groups, small scale, duels, etc.

If two 12 person groups want to all be 60k hp permablock tanks and each group stand on one of two flags, take keeps and engage in zero combat, then that's how they want to play.

It is up to you to either engage or not. If you choose to engage then it is up to you to play the game and figure out how to counter that play style. The tools available to combat these teams should be fair. Zos position is that ab is not fair because there is no counter play.

I choose to not engage, which I feel is the best strategy, because I do not want to spend my time trying to burn down these types of groups.

I do the same thing when I encounter enemies I know are wearing, using broken sets and or tactics. I disengage because I don't want to play that game

"Don't play the game" is not a viable answer to these groups. Azureblight is. ZOS's possition that there is not counterplay to the current live state of Azureblight is unhinged because the counterplay is obvious and simple: don't mindlessly and obliviously pixel stack on other players. This was aparently something too complicated for ballgroups to grasp and so they cried for nerfs to the only thing that actually was counterplay to their abusive and exploitative (if not outright bug abusing) play style.

Stafford197

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

People play the game they way they want. Ball groups, small scale, duels, etc.

If two 12 person groups want to all be 60k hp permablock tanks and each group stand on one of two flags, take keeps and engage in zero combat, then that's how they want to play.

It is up to you to either engage or not. If you choose to engage then it is up to you to play the game and figure out how to counter that play style. The tools available to combat these teams should be fair. Zos position is that ab is not fair because there is no counter play.

I choose to not engage, which I feel is the best strategy, because I do not want to spend my time trying to burn down these types of groups.

I do the same thing when I encounter enemies I know are wearing, using broken sets and or tactics. I disengage because I don't want to play that game

"Don't play the game" is not a viable answer to these groups. Azureblight is. ZOS's possition that there is not counterplay to the current live state of Azureblight is unhinged because the counterplay is obvious and simple: don't mindlessly and obliviously pixel stack on other players. This was aparently something too complicated for ballgroups to grasp and so they cried for nerfs to the only thing that actually was counterplay to their abusive and exploitative (if not outright bug abusing) play style.

Lowkey “Don’t play the game” is the actual answer here lol. Vast majority of PvP mains are already gone because it’s clear ZOS will never foster a fun, balanced PvP environment within ESO.

All we get are extremely boring metas and continual performance degradation.