Be careful what u wish for, punishment for quitting will result in more trash talk towards incompetent players and more doing nothing wait for kick

This is a good reason to have separate queues for base game and DLC dungeons. Players generally want a quick run for the random daily and DLC dungeons are usually longer and more time consuming. I don't blame anyone for leaving a dungeon they know is going to take 2 or 3 times as long as others.

Simplest solution here.

Divide random queue non DLC and DLC. Then it solved.

The best way to solve this issue IMO, is if ZOS would buff the rewards on the final boss of DLC dungeons. That way players would be happy to go through the longer dungeons because they would know there was a good reward. As it is, it is the same reward as any other base game dungeon that is easier and faster.

Wow, is this really a regular issue even with normals?? That is a bit sad. The difference between a longer and shorter dungeon on the normal setting is pretty negligible in most cases, with most groups.

ProudMary wrote: »

But the other side of the argument is that much of the time people que for a random normal just to use up their enlightenment and aren't interested in spending 30 minutes to do it. They're looking for a non-DLC dungeon they can complete in 5-10 minutes. And, occasionally, the player gets disconnected while entering the dungeon and they just walk away from the computer to cool down over the frustration.

This really is the issue because there is a divide between player expectation and dev design/intent for the functionality.

I'm not going to chase down old posts, but it's been discussed many times how the random queues were intended to entice people to run dungeons to be "fills" for those in queue for specific dungeons. How do you fill that 4th spot for Scalecaller? Add a nice, juicy reward to queuing up for a random.

Somewhere along the way, the community has gotten "used" to quick randoms being the rule, not the exception. This of course is partly due to power creep, such that many of the older dungeons are really fast to run, and partly due to the fact that non-subscribers don't have all the newer dungeons in their queue. In fact, people will purposely queue with a non-subbed account to limit which dungeons can pop, further driving the number of easier instances in the random queue. Then of course there is the fact that the floor and ceiling of skillsets is still wide, such that it can be really difficult to get through harder content expediently, especially with low dps team mates.

But if we think logically, why would ZOS want a feature where players can get a bunch of XP once per day per character for barely any effort? Literally everything else added to the game is aimed at getting players to spend more time in the game. This is the way of MMOs. They've released collectibles with a 50 piece requirement! They have events that give extra XP and scrolls, which are sold in the Crown Store. There is zero benefit to a queue limited to "quick" dungeons that gives the rewards the current random queue gives. It's not good for ZOS, and it's not good for the community, because most people are going to pick the quick option which means less people to be fills for the folks wanting specific dungeons.

So for the folks who are saying the answer is to split the queues... if the rewards stayed the same for the "quick" queue... what would be an appropriate time to reward ratio be such that people would ever pick the "longer" queue? I roughly get 1.5 - 2 levels with a scroll and event XP on. What would be appropriate. 4 levels? 5? Doesn't that seem a little ridiculous? Obviously the reward is decent now or else we wouldn't even have this problem. Plus, even within the "longer" queue there are definitely faster and slower dungeons. LoM is still super long but some of the newest DLC dungeons with the hidden bosses, which you can skip, can be quite fast. So all that would happen is there still would be a subset of dungeons where certain people drop the dungeon if they think it isn't worth their time. And I'm fairly certain that this is why ZOS hasn't split the queues, despite many, many suggestions to do so.

People are always going to gravitate towards the best use of their time. Some people are also always going to game the system if they can.

So what's the solution?

I don't know; it's a tough problem honestly. I do think splitting the queues is the wrong answer, and changes that bring back the usual experience closer to "20 - 30" minutes, and reward the point of the queues, would be best. Things like:

• Opening up all dungeons except for the latest DLCs to non subscribers, so that all players get a fair mix of dungeons, normalizing the experience.
• Adding a couple of bonus bosses to the older, quicker dungeons, only accessible to the random queues, and required to complete the random queues if everyone in the party is above a certain level, so they aren't so ridiculously fast. Put some new achievements in so it's "exciting" to get the new boss.
• Removing the abandonment penalty altogether, but making the dungeon instance "sticky" so that if you re-queue on any character on your account with the same role you end up back in the group you abandoned, until they beat the dungeon, so quitting for another is not a quicker prospect than the penalty. (I know this could open up other problems, but thinking of it did make me laugh.)
• All dungeons with an unlock level below 35 require running two random normals to get the random reward. If you get one dungeon under 35 unlock, the next one you queue will also be under 45. Obviously this probably isn't practical from a coding perspective. (Note, while the split is not DLC / non DLC, it does seem pretty clear to me that the quick ones are all below 35 on this list. The ones intended for people to level with, if you look at this list of original levels from 2017.)
• There are 52 dungeons overall in ESO. 15 of them unlock before level 35. Only 15 are really skewing the experience to make randoms "quick." Perhaps they should be removed from the queue, and put in their own queue which doesn't count for the "random daily" xp and other bonuses, but can be run for people who just want a normal xp grind of easy dungeons. People who queue specifically for these dungeons will be filled from the quick queue. Because there is no extra reward, this is likely to be more balanced. It still isn't great, though, because it will still divide the community. It could help a little with the fake roles though because people might be less likely to do a fake role when they know the easy ones are filtered out. And for the easy ones, who cares if the roles are fake? Also, perhaps individuals who are under level 35 get the daily xp reward, but everyone else does not, since leveling in those dungeons actually makes sense for them.
• The last boss of all dungeons that unlock after level 35 have a chance to drop a lead for wearable mythic pieces, regardless of where the leads are supposed to drop, when run through the random queue. For random vets, the drops are curated to mythics you haven't unlocked once yet. For normals, they are not curated. I think this might be better than throwing more transmutes or xp at the problem, because mythics are the biggest grind in the game, and could be done via a drop rate as opposed to splitting the queue and having different rewards based on that split. It would also give PvE'ers who are stuck in lockbox hell another way to grind. Or, maybe if you complete a random leveled about 35, you get a buff that doubles (normal) or triples (vet) your mythic drop chance for wearable mythic pieces.
• New achievements could be added to "run <insert dungeon name here> in the random queue." Add "x times" to that achievement to give it more staying power. Or also have an achievement of x unique dungeons through the random queue. As we learned from AwA, many people feel they have to do all of the achievements so it might keep people from abandoning groups as much, at least for a while. Incentivize the behavior you want.

These are just a few ideas. Not all of them may be great, but to give an idea of what I mean by resetting the experience expectation of a random queue.

For the life of me, I don't understand why people just can't be happy when they get one of the 15 quick dungeons, and not be jerks when they get a longer one... but sadly this is human nature. Those quick easy runs are mucking up the whole system. And I hate to say it, but sometimes things do need to be nerfed. Rewards for running a Fungal Grotto I may need to be one of those things, if this is what is driving people's behaviors. More and more and more dungeons will be added, leveled appropriately for the current game's strength. It's not a good state of affairs if there are not enough incentives to run dungeons with any kind of challenge via the random queues because the same "good" reward can be obtained with no challenge at all.

How about this:

1. Absolutely no players under CP 300 are allowed in DLC dungeons. I know the game says this exists, but we all know it does not. Make a hard wall that prevents the super lowbies from entering the dungeon. For all of the times I have seen a sub-CP 300 be able to run a DLC, there are 10 who could not. While high CP is not a guarantee of success, low CP is typically an indicator of inexperience and a squishy build.
2. If a group repeatedly fails on a boss, members are allowed to leave without a penalty. Thinking 3 times is the baseline. If the group wants to continue, they can, but people shouldn't be punished by a fake/bad tank who can't handle the first boss of MOS by getting the quitter penalty or by kicking the tank and having to find/wait for a replacement
3. Allow anyone who made it all the way through the dungeon from the beginning to choose the loot they want from the final boss. You want the Nirn daggers in Falkreath, you get them. With one caveat, you have to have been one of the original 4 who started the dungeon and you can not trade the loot you choose at the end, so you don't encourage the loot sellers or kicking someone right before the last boss to get someone guaranteed loot.

Not perfect, but I know these would keep me interested with a group that struggles but shows promise. Plus, under #3, you get a real reward instead of more transmutes, XP, or gold, which most experienced players do not need.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this:

1. Absolutely no players under CP 300 are allowed in DLC dungeons. I know the game says this exists, but we all know it does not. Make a hard wall that prevents the super lowbies from entering the dungeon. For all of the times I have seen a sub-CP 300 be able to run a DLC, there are 10 who could not. While high CP is not a guarantee of success, low CP is typically an indicator of inexperience and a squishy build.
2. If a group repeatedly fails on a boss, members are allowed to leave without a penalty. Thinking 3 times is the baseline. If the group wants to continue, they can, but people shouldn't be punished by a fake/bad tank who can't handle the first boss of MOS by getting the quitter penalty or by kicking the tank and having to find/wait for a replacement
3. Allow anyone who made it all the way through the dungeon from the beginning to choose the loot they want from the final boss. You want the Nirn daggers in Falkreath, you get them. With one caveat, you have to have been one of the original 4 who started the dungeon and you can not trade the loot you choose at the end, so you don't encourage the loot sellers or kicking someone right before the last boss to get someone guaranteed loot.

Not perfect, but I know these would keep me interested with a group that struggles but shows promise. Plus, under #3, you get a real reward instead of more transmutes, XP, or gold, which most experienced players do not need.

in my experience, most people who are running random dungeons are doing it explicitly for the transmutes or xp lol

I guess that's true, but upping them from 10 to 20 isn't going to make me stick around with a dud group.

Braffin wrote: »

Double the transmutes for DLC dungeons and the problem is solved.

Good idea or at least something extra. I used to run PUG's all the time and the long dungeons where just such a pain as the rewards are just the same as non-dlc.

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this:

1. Absolutely no players under CP 300 are allowed in DLC dungeons. I know the game says this exists, but we all know it does not. Make a hard wall that prevents the super lowbies from entering the dungeon. For all of the times I have seen a sub-CP 300 be able to run a DLC, there are 10 who could not. While high CP is not a guarantee of success, low CP is typically an indicator of inexperience and a squishy build.
2. If a group repeatedly fails on a boss, members are allowed to leave without a penalty. Thinking 3 times is the baseline. If the group wants to continue, they can, but people shouldn't be punished by a fake/bad tank who can't handle the first boss of MOS by getting the quitter penalty or by kicking the tank and having to find/wait for a replacement
3. Allow anyone who made it all the way through the dungeon from the beginning to choose the loot they want from the final boss. You want the Nirn daggers in Falkreath, you get them. With one caveat, you have to have been one of the original 4 who started the dungeon and you can not trade the loot you choose at the end, so you don't encourage the loot sellers or kicking someone right before the last boss to get someone guaranteed loot.

Not perfect, but I know these would keep me interested with a group that struggles but shows promise. Plus, under #3, you get a real reward instead of more transmutes, XP, or gold, which most experienced players do not need.

in my experience, most people who are running random dungeons are doing it explicitly for the transmutes or xp lol

I guess that's true, but upping them from 10 to 20 isn't going to make me stick around with a dud group.

for me i would rather help carry an inexperienced group through than play with a speedster lol

LOL. I guess it depends. I'll speed through FG1 any day but it is fun carrying a decent but inexperienced group through a place like Frostvault

ive been in a vet darkshade 1 on a tank doing 75% of the group dps and that was still more fun than a normal scalecaller and getting pulled into the first boss by a speedster and wiped by mechanics because of the join encounter in progress lol

Braffin wrote: »

@peacenote

Interesting thoughts.

I completely agree with you, that splitting queues wouldn't solve the issue at all, but even worsen the experience for those, which are looking forward to run a specific dlc-dungeon or simply want to do a truly random run, while at the same time reward those which are causing those problems in the first place. So, that's clearly out of the question.

I also agree, that older DLC dungeons should be available for non-subscribers. The most important thing needed for healthy queues is a big enough number of participants, so that's almost a "no-brainer" imo. I've no idea tho, how to connect this move to their sales strategy, but thankfully that's not my job.

Finally I want to adress the elephant in the room: Currently the rewards aren't properly tied to the content, because regardless of dungeon we always get the very same reward. That's exactly what should be changed.
While some of your ideas are definitely charming imo (I especially like the addition of new bosses to older dungeons of course, as I enjoy running them anyways.), there is a far simpler solution: Tie the amount of earned transmutes to the average length of the corresponding dungeon. So, getting (and playing) FG 1 as rnd would earn the participants 3-5 transmutes, while running MoS under the same conditions grant for example around 15 transmutes.

I'm quite sure, that would do the trick and only the farmers, which are currently abusing the system had a reason to complain.

I think maybe a mix of both? Changes to reward different behavior and reward adjustment? I agree the rewards aren't properly tied to content. And I do think the rewards for those 15 super easy dungeon are too great, which is feeding the bad behavior and causing people to have no patience for longer dungeons. If those dungeons remain in the queue, I do think some tweaks to make them longer, or give less rewards, are necessary.

The reason I feel that it's not just transmutes is because I am not clear that they are the only driver for doing a random. For me personally, I prefer to get my transmutes through Tier I's, which also unlocks skill points for all of my alts, since I PvP less than I PvE. When I queue for a random, I consider the transmutes a bonus but it's almost never my main reason for doing it. (I suppose an increase to the amount gained could change that!). It can't be just me who primarily uses randoms for the XP, to level a character or to level abilities. I also like the extra xp to continue to unlock cp. People who are there for XP won't care if the longer dungeons give more transmutes - they will just want the faster experience. Especially if the dungeon is longer because there is a lot of running that doesn't grant xp.

It might be worth considering, too, whether the solution should be the same for normal vs. vet. Right now the whole system is very simple, queue for random normal or vet and you get the matching reward for each, regardless of dungeon. But while 15 transmutes might make people think twice before leaving a normal March of Sacrifices... if a group is struggling clearing it on Vet is likely to take much, much longer than what 15 transmutes are worth. But make it too high, and talented groups will be able to farm for high amounts of transmutes easily. Once they hit the currency cap, then the incentive is gone.

I'm not one of their sales people either but I was kind of thinking that adding the DLC dungeons to the random queue would be its own type of carrot. Non subscribers would get a chance to see these dungeons, start their stickerbook, and start working towards achievements, but they wouldn't get to complete the dungeon unless they went ahead and bought the DLC, because they could never choose to target the dungeon specifically. And people who have never set foot in them might find they actually enjoy some of them! So I see it as a teaser, like when ESO has the ESO Plus Free Trial. A teaser for the greater good, which also helps with sales as people won't drop subs out of frustration because they can never get fills for their dungeons.

The last thing, which I feel is important, is that the rewards for a running a random which ends up being a "tougher" dungeon can't be so high that it disincentives doing pledges or targeting specific dungeons. I know already that it's pretty hard to fill a spot if the dungeon isn't a pledge and isn't FG I. I wonder if some kind of team sharing mechanism, where all members of the party get extra transmutes, a chance for a lead, a higher chance for a monster motif, etc. if the party finishes with a fill from the random queue, would help change the culture such that dropping is less acceptable?

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this:

Allow anyone who made it all the way through the dungeon from the beginning to choose the loot they want from the final boss. [/b] You want the Nirn daggers in Falkreath, you get them. With one caveat, you have to have been one of the original 4 who started the dungeon and you can not trade the loot you choose at the end, so you don't encourage the loot sellers or kicking someone right before the last boss to get someone guaranteed loot.

I like this one or a version of it. Creative ways to reward the behavior we want as opposed to punishing the behavior we don't want. A twist on this, which I think I've floated elsewhere, would be to introduce a new currency (I know, I know) that you could earn at the final boss of randoms, which would allow you to buy weapons and jewelry from any dungeon via stickerbook periodically. Would be less of an immediate gratification but would add a layer of choice such that, it might be worth it to you to not abandon a random dungeon even if it's not the place where you need the gear. It also would bypass having to make extra rules about trading.

These are all interesting thoughts on it. Maybe there is something to removing the 15 original dungeons from randoms once you hit a certain level. I'm not sure myself, though I've thought of this a few times. Other MMOs phase out the beginner dungeons as you level up, while it's true that ESO scales so technically FG1 should match my level, that dungeon can't stand up to a high CP Solo/DPS build at all. I can solo vet FG1 hard mode fairly easily, do I really need to be thrown in there on a random normal with three true level 20s who are probably IRL friends trying to learn the ropes? I can't imagine what new players think about that, other than some have said "chaotic." I've recently started "learning" to tank, and truthfully leveling a tank was "chaotic." I was hoping to use leveling via dungeons as a good way to learn the basics of tanking, and it kind of just taught me that nobody needs a tank in normals anymore since every role can do it.

No reason to punish. This is how ZoS have designed it.

They are pretty good at doing things up and down. You can´t change people, when they have access to a design like that.

You need to go after ZoS and outside the public forums, if possible, or like other people have done - just leave the game for a better one.

Design change people not people.

That's a big part of my mentioning this issue. Not necessarily to punish the quitters, but I do get frustrated at them when it keeps happening over and over and I do not feel pity for them whatsoever.

The queue for a replacement DPS is like we are put at the end of the queue and have to wait on all the other DPS to run through their queues instead of giving us the first available. Even a replacement DPS can take 15 or more minutes. One would think that so many DPS are waiting in queue that one should be instantly available, but nope our group appears to be put into the back of the queue just like we all queued for a new dungeon. That is equally as annoying as quitters.