Tales of Tribute - Am I too stupid for the game?
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo I think it‘s undeniable that ToT failed as a main chapter feature, even if you personally liked it. It was unanimously disliked during the announcement and the reception was very lukewarm when it finally released. As a side feature it would have totally worked and swayed a lot of opinions, but as something for a $40 Chapter it simply didn’t live up to that. And all of the other work you mentioned really is no excuse for this. They know how bad the reception was and that’s why we’re getting these great features nowadays. I‘m pretty sure overall High Isle was the least selling Chapter of them all, simply because of that.
It was not unanimously disliked during the announcement, and the reception improved when it was finally released. We don't know population numbers, but I can say I never have a ton of trouble finding a match. And the developers have continued to make decks for it. That's a good sign it's at least doing decent.
We don't know which chapters sold the most but I'd very much doubt it was the least selling chapter .
Edit: I'm not saying the feedback to the card preview didn't have more negative than positive opinions. But, it was definitely not unanimous. It was more negative than positive but there was also plenty of people clearly looking forward to it.
ToT was absolutely loathed by a huge part of the community. It was definitely the least desired of all Chapter features and got the most criticism of being unnecessary and not worth the price tag. And if not High Isle, which Chapter do you think sold less? All of the others either had very exciting features or at least a compelling setting (Greymoor), High Isle lacked both.
Yes, obviously some people were looking forward to it, but it was definitely the feature that generated the most negative opinions yet - which was my point. Unanimous is a strong word, but that’s how it looked back after they revealed High Isle. If you go back to that time you can find dozens, hundreds of threads and topics talking about ToT in a (very) negative way.
Don’t get me wrong, I love ToT now, but back then I was appalled by the sheer idea of getting this as the main feature for an expansion. I did a full 180 am now it‘s basically the only thing I do in game, playing 10-15 matches per day because I really love it.
Edited by Seraphayel on March 12, 2024 10:27PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Frogmother wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Frogmother wrote: »Another question:
Where do I see which ToT card pieces I already own? for new decks? I finished the High Isle questline but cant see the diplomat's piece.
Collections > Tales of Tribute Patrons
I see there the info which ones I am missing and hints where to find the fragments, but no info which fragments I already found. eg. for hunding deck
The cards you haven't found are grayed out. If you go into collections > fragments you can see which fragment pieces you have.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »spartaxoxo I think it‘s undeniable that ToT failed as a main chapter feature, even if you personally liked it. It was unanimously disliked during the announcement and the reception was very lukewarm when it finally released. As a side feature it would have totally worked and swayed a lot of opinions, but as something for a $40 Chapter it simply didn’t live up to that. And all of the other work you mentioned really is no excuse for this. They know how bad the reception was and that’s why we’re getting these great features nowadays. I‘m pretty sure overall High Isle was the least selling Chapter of them all, simply because of that.
It was not unanimously disliked during the announcement, and the reception improved when it was finally released. We don't know population numbers, but I can say I never have a ton of trouble finding a match. And the developers have continued to make decks for it. That's a good sign it's at least doing decent.
We don't know which chapters sold the most but I'd very much doubt it was the least selling chapter .
Edit: I'm not saying the feedback to the card preview didn't have more negative than positive opinions. But, it was definitely not unanimous. It was more negative than positive but there was also plenty of people clearly looking forward to it.
ToT was absolutely loathed by a huge part of the community. It was definitely the least desired of all Chapter features and got the most criticism of being unnecessary and not worth the price tag. And if not High Isle, which Chapter do you think sold less? All of the others either had very exciting features or at least a compelling setting (Greymoor), High Isle lacked both.
Yes, obviously some people were looking forward to it, but it was definitely the feature that generated the most negative opinions yet - which was my point. Unanimous is a strong word, but that’s how it looked back after they revealed High Isle. If you go back to that time you can find dozens, hundreds of threads and topics talking about ToT in a (very) negative way.
Don’t get me wrong, I love ToT now, but back then I was appalled by the sheer idea of getting this as the main feature for an expansion. I did a full 180 am now it‘s basically the only thing I do in game, playing 10-15 matches per day because I really love it.
Polls at the time put people looking forward to it or had mixed feelings/neutral towards it between 25%-45% IIRC. Majority were negative, sure. Unanimous? Not at all. I do think the negative voices drowned out the positive ones in terms of comments though.
I imagine the worst selling was Morrowind, given the player population greatly increased after the pandemic and Morrowind ended up being given away free relatively fast. IIRC this was in part to make sure there was a healthy population for Battlegrounds. But I might be remembering that wrong.Edited by spartaxoxo on March 12, 2024 10:52PM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »The opening game misleads players by not showing them proper sequencing for one of the most important game actions and also by training them to make a move that is actively bad and can cost someone a game against a medium to high level player all on it's own.
Tutorials aren't supposed to concern themselves with game balance nor take into account high level play. They should simply be discussing the basic rules of the game. Starting the tutorial with noob tubes so that players can focus on understanding the basic rules of the game makes a lot of sense.
The tutorial encourages playing poorly.
It's free for a tutorial to give someone the basics of a game while not teaching them a red herring regarding how to play. There isn't any reason that a canned tutorial should encourage one of the worst possible moves to make.
The starting deck patrons could have been better. It's not often, but also not rare, for me to play against players who immediately flip the crow patron or sacrifice all of the cards to Delmene.
Fortify regularly interrupts play and the benefit of the variance that it adds to the game game isn't clear. Many players are blundering with this card.
Also, one other thing that I haven't said yet, is that a relationship wasn't fostered with players who have the means to explain the game well to others. Even just the smallest seed of good will could have gone a long way toward having a TOT community and players helping players. That only costs very little.Edited by Personofsecrets on March 12, 2024 11:34PM1 -
Orionza✭✭Frogmother wrote: »The game feel way to complicated with too many factors/resources and effects which are not explained to the player. I gave it several tries but I have no idea what I am doing.
I read a guidance on how to play it, but there are still mechanics and effects which I dont understand.
I don't know about you; but I think I must be. I've tried hard and still don't get what I'm supposed to do. And it's frustrating (win or lose) after a very long gameplay.0 -
CMFan1966✭✭✭✭✭Frogmother wrote: »The game feel way to complicated with too many factors/resources and effects which are not explained to the player. I gave it several tries but I have no idea what I am doing.
I read a guidance on how to play it, but there are still mechanics and effects which I dont understand.
You are not too stupid at all. ToT is hard to get the hang of and it took me some time too, but I finally managed. This advice might sound like I'm talking down to you, but I'm really not. When you are playing an NPC, you aren't timed, so take your time and read the cards. The cards will tell you what they each do. They'll tell you if they give you coins or give you power. Power becomes prestige and that is what will add up to your win.
I've been playing ToT for awhile now and there are still some cards and sets I don''t completely understand. I'm happy to play with you if we are ever in game at the same time, but PvP Tribute is timed. Still, I'd be happy to help if I can. Good Luck!2 -
OldStygian✭✭✭✭It's ok. Didn't find it particularly difficult to pick up, probably helps if you've played other card/board games IRL.
I haven't played for a while. I found the rewards didn't justify the time invested.0 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KaosWarMonk wrote: »It's ok. Didn't find it particularly difficult to pick up, probably helps if you've played other card/board games IRL.
I haven't played for a while. I found the rewards didn't justify the time invested.
I played many board games. Not so many CCGs. I had a hard time and couldn't really figure out the good strategy in ToT. I didn't give it many tries, but my past extensive board game experience didn't help. (Euros, modern games, etc.)PC
PS4/PS50 -
Inucham✭i can tell you when you unlock everithink and after triying out all the decks the game is really fun,
the economy stack, the ca, the swith of the combo , the game really fels good.
Until the enemy topdecks 3 cards in 1 turn, that arng is so annoying xD"may the moons show us the right path, and if not just go buyaka mode"1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have yet to stay in the top 100 at the end of the month, but play against top 100 players regularly.
Only two things annoy me - dropping a ton of ranks on a bad streak, and the concede penalty (which you can circumvent by logging to a different character anyway, wth).
That said, I think ToT is really confused and confusing in its design. It's supposed to be a casual tavern game, exemplified by not asking people to grind decks or such, everyone playing with the same cards. But it's incredibly complex and takes a long time to fully get your head around and play at a decent level.
Games can also last a really long time, which doesn't fit into the role of a quick diversion from other ingame activities. It also makes it really frustrating when you lose after 30 minutes and walk away with a bag of Jute - no other activity is this punishing in its time vs reward relationship, even losing a Battleground is faster and gets you better rewards.
So, instead of just adding more decks, I hope they address some of these other issues. Herma Mora already has the potential to make games really fast, but they should still improve the reward structure somewhat (also keep adding more outfits, please, and make them curated!) and get rid of this ridiculous concede penalty.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No idea how battles last 20 or 30 minutes for some, the average time is 12-15 minutes, can be way faster, but longer than that only happens when none of the players has picked a Power generating deck - which is usually always a bad choice because it drags out matches. So to prevent long matches just always pick a Power deck (Pelin, Hunding, Mora) and do so in particular when your opponent picks Rahjin or Almalexia.Edited by Seraphayel on March 13, 2024 1:27PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ProfesseurFreder wrote: »Tales of Tribute is, not to put too fine a point on it, rubbish. I waited for years to get a playable card game-within-the-game -- and when we finally got it it was THIS crashing disappointment. Yeesh, Gin Rummy or Klondike would be better than this junk.
I felt insulted that ZOS spent dev time and money on the game. It feels more like a phone app than something that should be in an MMO to me.6 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »No idea how battles last 20 or 30 minutes for some, the average time is 12-15 minutes, can be way faster, but longer than that only happens when none of the players has picked a Power generating deck - which is usually always a bad choice because it drags out matches. So to prevent long matches just always pick a Power deck (Pelin, Hunding, Mora) and do so in particular when your opponent picks Rahjin or Almalexia.
Some probably play slower than you do. Not knowing what are good choices is likely a key part of that.SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »ProfesseurFreder wrote: »Tales of Tribute is, not to put too fine a point on it, rubbish. I waited for years to get a playable card game-within-the-game -- and when we finally got it it was THIS crashing disappointment. Yeesh, Gin Rummy or Klondike would be better than this junk.
I felt insulted that ZOS spent dev time and money on the game. It feels more like a phone app than something that should be in an MMO to me.
Some would agree with that, others will disagree, as can be seen in this thread.PC
PS4/PS51 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It started overcomplicated, and more decks has only made it more so. It's pretty offputting for casual play."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle6 -
JeroenB✭✭✭Personally I understand the game just enough to enjoy it casually. Unfortunately I've begun to run into a huge and seemingly unavoidable difficulty spike in the vs. player game mode that saps all enjoyment from ToT and if I'm not careful ESO in general.
At the level below Rubedite I'm winning once every two or three games, which is a fun casual pastime to weave in between other activities in the game. Then inevitably I hit Rubedite level, and suddenly I'm going seven to eleven losses for each win. That's not fun anymore; it's incredibly dispiriting and costs enormous amounts of time. It means I'm playing little bits of ESO in between ToT matches, instead of the other way around.3 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Things that seem obvious to some , or that some pick up readily by doing through repetition, will nonetheless remain confusing and frustrating for others. That isn't just for ToT or other ESO activities, but life in general. Yet if you have something that significant numbers of players feel is 1) confusing, 2) boring, 3) too long, or 4) insufficiently rewarding (or some combination of those), it is in fact a developer/design issue.
However, none of us know what percentage of people play at all, or regularly, or at what level. We can infer though from years of comments and feedback that it, broadly speaking, didn't make the best of impressions for a chapter feature.
There is nothing wrong with finding ToT obvious, or easily picked up, etc. Or something that required lots of practice to finally understand. There is nothing wrong with finding it overly complicated and confusing. In fact, such terms can mean many things, such as "I've played lots of trading/strategy card games and have experience that helps me get this faster" or "The type of logic or strategy involved is something that doesn't come naturally to me, and trying to learn by trial and error is frustrating and confusing."
Personally I very, very rarely play it and when I do it's the most obvious moves vs the most inept NPCs I can find. I see no high level strategy that I can appreciate or work towards, just, "Here are some cards, OK, this is the best I know what to do with them this turn. Maybe some better cards will show up soon." I would prefer something that wasn't about needing a strategy but rather short terms moves with a focus on more immediate decisions with high stakes, but that is not what ToT is nor what it will ever be. I have been in the "I don't really 'get this' camp" since its release, but if there are those who enjoy it, good for them. I hope it provides them a fun or rewarding experience.
edited for typoEdited by tinythinker on March 13, 2024 11:38PM❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this4 -
ikzaa✭✭✭✭Just out of curiosity, if I had responded to this topic just saying:
YES
Would the message be censored? And why?Edited by ikzaa on March 14, 2024 12:11AM1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just out of curiosity, if I had responded to this topic just saying:
YES
Would the message be censored? And why?
?? What are you on about?______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I think he is saying could he say that the answer tot he initial question was "yes, the OP was too stupid."
NOTE: I don't believe that is accurate, but many do think anyone that can't do what they can are stupid or otherwise.PC
PS4/PS50 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have years of experience in card games including star realms and Dominion and its really quite good. I don't play more because I don't want the rewards Inventory and mail limitations make that j ust annoying and if I want to play a card game I play a card game not a card game inside an MMO.0 -
ikzaa✭✭✭✭
The title says: Am I too stupid for the game?
If I called someone stupid on the forum, I would probably be banned.
But in this case, if I just say YES, is it also considered an insult?
Because of the title of the topic I was curious to know what moderation would do in a case like this.0 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The title says: Am I too stupid for the game?
If I called someone stupid on the forum, I would probably be banned.
But in this case, if I just say YES, is it also considered an insult?
Because of the title of the topic I was curious to know what moderation would do in a case like this.
It might be snipped as an unconstructive response to a rhetorical question, since it accomplishes nothing other than potentially derailing the discussion.1 -
Frogmother✭✭✭✭
Based on how I wrote my opening post, only a super sensitive person would get offended by such an answer.
But let's keep the answers on topic.Edited by Frogmother on March 14, 2024 1:26PM0 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Frogmother wrote: »The game feel way to complicated with too many factors/resources and effects which are not explained to the player. I gave it several tries but I have no idea what I am doing.
I read a guidance on how to play it, but there are still mechanics and effects which I dont understand.
"It's not you, it's ZOS". The game is poorly explained even where it concerns the basic principles of a deck building game (I'd never played one before ToT).
Personally, I recall when I started playing I automatically assumed that 'combo' applied to cards played consecutively; that you would lose the streak by playing coin cards or cards from a different suite. Then I got these combo alerts (also from the NPC) and I was thinking '[snip] is going on?!?'. This is just one of those things that aren't self evident at all .
It's not just the explanation though. Quite a few decks that have been added to the game now with cards that have effects that persist after they've been played. For instance the druid's deck "when a card is placed in your cooldown pile" effects. Others actively interfere with the opponent's game. Even once you've figured out the often cryptic effects descriptions, what remains is that these decks add whole new layers of complexity to the game.
If you're just starting now I can very well imagine it all adds up to a general sense of bewilderment (no pun intended), with all sorts of things happening seemingly out of nowhere.
I created a poll about this earlier. IMHO ZOS have already gone too far with adding decks. There's a small group of dedicated ToT players that can't wait for the next deck, but the bigger picture is that these decks have become a barrier to entry for new players from a base that is already not naturally predisposed to like card games.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 15, 2024 6:01PMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!4 -
Elrond87✭✭✭Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »You are not alone. I still can't beat the intro game, and you can't do dailies unless you beat the intro game. The whole thing seems based off of pure luck and nothing else. WORST GAME EVER!
i dont think it is luck based, otherwise how does one person stay number one on the leaderboard everysingle month without fail in euPC|EU
cp2807
20 characters0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Frogmother wrote: »The game feel way to complicated with too many factors/resources and effects which are not explained to the player. I gave it several tries but I have no idea what I am doing.
I read a guidance on how to play it, but there are still mechanics and effects which I dont understand.
"It's not you, it's ZOS". The game is poorly explained even where it concerns the basic principles of a deck building game (I'd never played one before ToT).
Personally, I recall when I started playing I automatically assumed that 'combo' applied to cards played consecutively; that you would lose the streak by playing coin cards or cards from a different suite. Then I got these combo alerts (also from the NPC) and I was thinking '[snip] is going on?!?'. This is just one of those things that aren't self evident at all .
It's not just the explanation though. Quite a few decks that have been added to the game now with cards that have effects that persist after they've been played. For instance the druid's deck "when a card is placed in your cooldown pile" effects. Others actively interfere with the opponent's game. Even once you've figured out the often cryptic effects descriptions, what remains is that these decks add whole new layers of complexity to the game.
If you're just starting now I can very well imagine it all adds up to a general sense of bewilderment (no pun intended), with all sorts of things happening seemingly out of nowhere.
I created a poll about this earlier. IMHO ZOS have already gone too far with adding decks. There's a small group of dedicated ToT players that can't wait for the next deck, but the bigger picture is that these decks have become a barrier to entry for new players from a base that is already not naturally predisposed to like card games.
It's an easy fix for this, just limit the decks available for lower ranks. First rank starts with the first four decks and then each rank adds another deck to the pool. If you play against NPCs this is barely of an issue because they only have the decks available you have available as far as I know and that's where you learn the game, not necessarily playing against other playerys. ToT is very intricate and complex, but you can learn it quite easily if you're willing to invest time. I started playing ToT last year and I'm always one of the Top 100 players each month. It's not hard to get there.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 15, 2024 6:02PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »You are not alone. I still can't beat the intro game, and you can't do dailies unless you beat the intro game. The whole thing seems based off of pure luck and nothing else. WORST GAME EVER!
i dont think it is luck based, otherwise how does one person stay number one on the leaderboard everysingle month without fail in eu
ToT is incredibly rng and luck based, but good players know how to handle a disadvantageous situation better. If the tavern plays against you, there's nothing you can do. The biggest factor that decides if you win or lose is the tavern rng.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -2 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »It's an easy fix for this, just limit the decks available for lower ranks. First rank starts with the first four decks and then each rank adds another deck to the pool. If you play against NPCs this is barely of an issue because they only have the decks available you have available as far as I know and that's where you learn the game, not necessarily playing against other playerys.
The NPC can pick decks you don't have. That's one of the problems for starting players. I've played the game from the start and learning every deck as they are released has been hard enough to keep up with. A starting player is exposed to all of them at once.
I suppose it would work to 'replay' the learning experience by limiting the decks by rank. Another would be to only allow decks that both players have unlocked.
Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tinythinker wrote: »Things that seem obvious to some , or that some pick up readily by doing through repetition, will nonetheless remain confusing and frustrating for others. That isn't just for ToT or other ESO activities, but life in general. Yet if you have something that significant numbers of players feel is 1) confusing, 2) boring, 3) too long, or 4) insufficiently rewarding (or some combination of those), it is in fact a developer/design issue.
However, none of us know what percentage of people play at all, or regularly, or at what level. We can infer though from years of comments and feedback that it, broadly speaking, didn't make the best of impressions for a chapter feature.
There is nothing wrong with finding ToT obvious, or easily picked up, etc. Or something that required lots of practice to finally understand. There is nothing wrong with finding it overly complicated and confusing. In fact, such terms can mean many things, such as "I've played lots of trading/strategy card games and have experience that helps me get this faster" or "The type of logic or strategy involved is something that doesn't come naturally to me, and trying to learn by trial and error is frustrating and confusing."
Personally I very, very rarely play it and when I do it's the most obvious moves vs the most inept NPCs I can find. I see no high level strategy that I can appreciate or work towards, just, "Here are some cards, OK, this is the best I know what to do with them this turn. Maybe some better cards will show up soon." I would prefer something that wasn't about needing a strategy but rather short terms moves with a focus on more immediate decisions with high stakes, but that is not what ToT is nor what it will ever be. I have been in the "I don't really 'get this' camp" since its release, but if there are those who enjoy it, good for them. I hope it provides them a fun or rewarding experience.
edited for typo
Plenty of people find Chess: Confusing, boring, too long, and insufficiently rewarding.
That doesn't mean that there is a problem with Chess or the design of Chess. Those are terrible metrics to judge a game by, especially the developer of the game, since they are all subjective metrics. The same could be said for any board game. How many people avoid Risk and Monopoly due to length of play or any of the countless games with a larger barrier to entry for being too confusing.1 -
JeroenB✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »It's an easy fix for this, just limit the decks available for lower ranks. First rank starts with the first four decks and then each rank adds another deck to the pool. If you play against NPCs this is barely of an issue because they only have the decks available you have available as far as I know and that's where you learn the game, not necessarily playing against other playerys.
The NPC can pick decks you don't have. That's one of the problems for starting players. I've played the game from the start and learning every deck as they are released has been hard enough to keep up with. A starting player is exposed to all of them at once.
I suppose it would work to 'replay' the learning experience by limiting the decks by rank. Another would be to only allow decks that both players have unlocked.
There are three levels of NPC. My impression is that the Novice NPCs are already restricted to the base four decks; the Proficient NPCs are limited to one non-base deck; and the Expert NPCs can use two non-base decks. That seems a decent approach for gradually exposing players to more sets. Presumably the people experiencing real difficulty with the game aren't capable of reliably beating those novice NPCs yet, so shouldn't encounter the higher decks unless seeking out the other NPCs. (Not sure about the NPCs in the ToT story questline; do they use a broader variety of decks?)
I can see how it might be good to have a system with similar effect for games against players. I only have the base five decks myself, because the others are unlocked through questing in zones I haven't done yet. So I appreciate encountering other decks when playing against NPCs and players. That said, sometimes I would very much like to limit play to the base four or five decks for a more constrained experience, so linking that to a per-game option would be interesting. I suspect that would make the already-slow queues unbearably long though.0