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Ball groups ruining fun in Cyrodil
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AnduinTryggva✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think some of the game design simply does not fit PvP really well and why some really have a love-hate relationship with ESO PvP.
How many times have I not seen a group of 3 people running around a farm in circles and 10 players + 3 sieges could hardly damage them. This is just so flawed that it is beyond belief. They are tankier than a keep gate and undestructible.
And numbers SHOULD count for something.4 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
Yea, sometimes it works in your favor if there aren't disconnects, as your real group can do the objectives around the ball group. I've done that and watched in almost amazement as we captured a keep or a resource as the ball group weaves in and out and around without disrupting the capture. It's weird. And so annoying if you get caught in it.I've talked about this in another topic. It makes absolutely no sense to put PvE skills in PvP maps simply so that these players can be massacred by PvP players. Zenimax seems to think it's fun for PvP players to kill players who have no interest in PvP whatsoever. Frankly, I don't understand this choice! I know several PvP servers where players are penalized and some even end up having their accounts banned for "farming" other players just to climb the PvP ranking or to get more kills and be seen as PvP gods when in reality, they just farmed players who weren't even moving. Here in ESO, it's the opposite. Zenimax forces PvP players to farm PvE players who have no interest whatsoever. And in the end, everyone is satisfied! PvP players are all happy because they killed completely noob players, and Zenimax is happy because, according to them, PvP zones are full of action and fights! Lol What sense does this make!?
Of course, many PvP players will say: 'We also don't like PvE and we're forced to go to PvE.' That's correct and I understand. But it's up to PvP players to request that everything necessary for PvP be implemented in actions, areas, or maps exclusively for PvP.
Well, a couple of things.
This is a "ball group" thread. Ball groups can be just as annoying to actual PvP players as they are to non PvP players. There are tons and tons of other threads about ZOS's choice to mix PvE and PvP. I actually like it, and I'm not the only one, but whether you do or not, "ball groups" are more of a universal problem. I will say that no one is truly "forced" to do anything, as one can just choose to not pursue the reward that's embedded in the activity that they don't like, be it an event ticket or an ability or a skyshard or an achievement. This whole concept of saying we are forced to do something in a video game, especially one where the largest majority of the content is overland and quest lines which requires no special builds or skills, is baffling to me.
But also, in my opinion this comment "But it's up to PvP players to request that everything necessary for PvP be implemented in actions, areas, or maps exclusively for PvP." is short-sighted and a problematic way of thinking, and is exactly the reason suggestions on the forums can be polarizing and we rarely get ideas where the majority of the community can support them. "Pay attention to me and my playstyle and viewpoint! Someone else can advocate for the others!" is not nearly as effective as a well-thought out suggestion that addresses all sides and seeks to increase the enjoyment of all players. Certainly someone who only plays PvE likely can't make meaningful suggestions for how to improve, say, a skill's morph and its effectiveness in Battlegrounds, but certainly when we are talking about broad topics, such as ZOS's choice to encourage the community to participate in all content, we can consider all sides of the discussion when making a suggestion. I do try very hard to do this.
Regarding the actual topic of ball groups, while I don't PvP all day, every day, I can say that, in my personal opinion in my personal experience, I have been negatively impacted way, way more by the unintended consequences, both in PvP and PvE, of ZOS trying to counter the ball groups and address the complaining, than I ever have by an actual ball group. (Dark Convergence is just the worst, imo.) Sometimes they're around, sometimes they're not. Sometimes I'll try to avoid them when they are, sometimes I can work around them and still have a great time, and sometimes I'll try to grief them and take them on, if enough other people are also doing this. However, I typically don't group in PvP (especially after the group cap was halved) except for with a friend or two, and I LOVE helping the battles as a solo healer. It is my favorite thing to do in PvP. I like to run around and heal people on the siege, jump into the middle of battles, and I get a lot of enjoyment from seeing my heals hit and be effective. I worry that someday, ZOS will hear enough of these "ball group" complaints that they finally will kill the solo healer off in an attempt to fix them, and honestly, in that case, I'd almost rather they just leave them be and work on other things. I know that I enjoy how Vigor works now. I really liked how Earthgore worked before the nerfs. I enjoyed PvP more before Dark Convergence was added to the game. Be careful what you wish for.1 -
AnduinTryggva✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What is also annoying is that ESO is apparantly incapable to create a balanced campaign. They should just do like for any other PvP where people join a campaign and they are put into their respective team depending on balance and overhanging players are put into another instance of the same "map". Of course giving priority to people queuing as a group but without guarantee.Edited by AnduinTryggva on March 1, 2024 6:27PM1 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ball groups break gameplay and if they don't wipe everyone out then at least they do create a distraction wherever they go. They are the thing that is holding ESO PvP back.
There is barely any room left in which to fight them now, especially with Arcanist Beams and so much excessive amounts of CC being thrown against players fighting them. I'm so tired of eating Arcanist CC and then 15-30 something people just shooting me down, especially when there is real fighting going on between factions like everone is stuck in 1v1 and 1v2 outside a keep. The ball groups sweep thru there and not only do they kill everyone, the PvP ends... the very reason we came to the server is rudely interrupted and brought to an end by a group of 15 people basically exploiting (as far as I'm concerned) because there's no way that ESO was originally envisioned to have that kind of over-powered behavior.
No one should have this kind of power in PvP.
ZOS Devs - Ball groups are *preventing* us from PvPing so until these guys are shut down you will have people running across your servers actually putting a stop to any PvP going on, wherever they go ESO PvP has failed and sometimes almost feels like a form of abuse or harassment even.Edited by Vulkunne on March 2, 2024 4:29AMProfessor for advanced Imperial City studies and Grand Admiral of the Imperial Empire.7 -
quinancia✭✭✭You are in a pvp zone. Expect people to kill you for their own reasons. If you don't want to be killed, stay out of pvp.2 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are in a pvp zone. Expect people to kill you for their own reasons. If you don't want to be killed, stay out of pvp.
Hold on a sec. No one said anything about people pvping "for their own reasons". That is not the point here.
Its what's referred to as having a 'sporting chance', as well as what is considered to be an actual PvP experience. Therefore, from what I have witnessed many times, a ball group's interaction against an unorganized (or even an organized) pug group is almost always the same outcome. They get demolished. Statistically speaking if the outcome is almost always the same then it can be predicted which means everyone else is forced to lose which is again, something that lends itself to abuse and corruption...
Its as simple as that. Let's say something like BRK is UA right? In the courtyard, once the invaders make it past the gate, battle lines form and we fight back and forth... this is what actual PvP really looks like... *until* a ball group comes along and instantly kills everyone both in the courtyard then runs the walls killing with us having virtually no means to kill them, even though we outnumber them. Artillery and ults barely even do anything to them, like a speed-bump.
Make no mistake, this is a balance issue, the problem can also be conceived logically, whereas a ball groups presence is same as someone flipping a switch... and ending the battle by killing everyone, the result is the same, it just takes a little longer without using the switch. It is a problem for everyone who wants to PvP with this game. It is an issue that goes beyond whatever someone's personal bias is for killing other players, which no one in particular has a monopoly on that so that does not apply here, its how they're doing it that matters.Edited by Vulkunne on March 2, 2024 10:44AMProfessor for advanced Imperial City studies and Grand Admiral of the Imperial Empire.5 -
quinancia✭✭✭So, the problem is that the ball group kills you while you are trying to accomplish your objective, and even though you out number them, you don't have a chance. They can kill you, but you have no way to kill them.
The outcome is the same every time.
You want the devs to make changes such that these ball groups don't stop you from achieving your objectives. So they can't kill you as easily.
The way they do pvp ruins the game for you. You get killed, you can't stop it, all they get is AP. They are not achieving pvp objectives. They are just farming players for AP.
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Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, the problem is that the ball group kills you while you are trying to accomplish your objective, and even though you out number them, you don't have a chance. They can kill you, but you have no way to kill them.
The outcome is the same every time.
You want the devs to make changes such that these ball groups don't stop you from achieving your objectives. So they can't kill you as easily.
The way they do pvp ruins the game for you. You get killed, you can't stop it, all they get is AP. They are not achieving pvp objectives. They are just farming players for AP.
The solution to this problem is subjective and there is no easy answer. In the past it seems they've tried to approach a solution thru incremental changes however of course, the ball groups adjust to these changes every time.
It would take someone who knows the game and who also understands how ballgroups function. Just taking an educated guess any fix for this will probably have to start with the way groups work and the last time they changed groups this caused some headaches too.
If you've seen how these groups operate in PvP, which I'm sure you have, then you can see that when they are around everything stops. All we can do is leave and that to me just doesn't sound right. Like you leave a keep after you've lost it not before
. Edited by Vulkunne on March 2, 2024 12:25PMProfessor for advanced Imperial City studies and Grand Admiral of the Imperial Empire.3 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭So, the problem is that the ball group kills you while you are trying to accomplish your objective, and even though you out number them, you don't have a chance. They can kill you, but you have no way to kill them.
The outcome is the same every time.
You want the devs to make changes such that these ball groups don't stop you from achieving your objectives. So they can't kill you as easily.
The way they do pvp ruins the game for you. You get killed, you can't stop it, all they get is AP. They are not achieving pvp objectives. They are just farming players for AP.
No one ever asked to remove BGs from the game.
No one ever said that an organized group should not be better of same randoms.
We only asked to put a limit on the broken mechanic that is healing hots stacking.
If we can't agree on this every other discussion is pointless.Edited by RetPing on March 2, 2024 12:29PM6 -
Evilspock✭✭✭✭Snow treaders are broke because the intention is you can't move fast while wearing them (no sprinting), but the problem is you can still get to the speed cap without sprinting, which also leaves you with a lot more stam. Ball groups wouldn't be so much of an issue if they weren't both so fast and cc immune. It's worse now with powerful Arcanist shields being spammed, that's what they do now.🖖 @EvilSpock |PC/NA| ✦ Guildmaster: Vulcan Commandos |AD| ✦ https://youtube.com/@vulcan_commando1 -
Rageypoo✭✭✭✭✭I want ball groups that can wreck noobs all day long.
There are gear sets that severely reduce healing (which is what these groups rely on) but you don't wear them and just complain.
Wear that gear and stop their healing.
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭12 man organised group in itself is not a problem. Every playstyle has its place in Cyro eco-system. But the issue is that there is no cap on max healing per second in PvP or lack of cap for the amount of "same" heals. 12 man PvP group is the only environment where realistically you can take advantage of that and fully abuse it. That is why people complain about Ball Groups. They don't complain about alliance staking (basically "zegrs").
Going further, there is an enormous disproportion between healing that 12 man group can have in PvP and amount of damage you can deal to a player. There is simply no way to dish out enough damage in order to counter the abnormal healing per second a typical ball group has. This is also the reason why you don't see (for the most part) ball groups fighting each other. Because they ALSO lack the power to counter other Ball Group. The most powerful way of playing in PvP is unable to counter itself.
The only way to make it fair is to put a cap on max number of healing effects coming from same effects/skills.
Like I have said before - every play style has its place in ESO. Every play-style has it strong points & weak points and risk vs reward. And 12 man organized group SHOULD be very powerful. It should be a force to reckon with. But the issue is, 12 man group in PvP is simply way too strong right now. It has too many strong points with no real reasonable drawbacks, literally, only because the game allows to stack HOTs infinitely. Hard to imagine how it would look like if ZOS would not reduce max group size from 24 to 12 when they were reducing Cyro population limit.
Snipe ganking used to be like this and had the same issue. Insane damage, and like 40 meters distance. Low risk, low skill cap, but huge reward. And ZOS wrecked this play-style (rightfully so if you ask me). I hope that if Ball Group with HOTs stacking will become too popular then the nerf will happen (a nerf that will only affect PvP group environment).4 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, the problem is that the ball group kills you while you are trying to accomplish your objective, and even though you out number them, you don't have a chance. They can kill you, but you have no way to kill them.
The outcome is the same every time.
You want the devs to make changes such that these ball groups don't stop you from achieving your objectives. So they can't kill you as easily.
The way they do pvp ruins the game for you. You get killed, you can't stop it, all they get is AP. They are not achieving pvp objectives. They are just farming players for AP.
No one ever asked to remove BGs from the game.
No one ever said that an organized group should not be better of same randoms.
We only asked to put a limit on the broken mechanic that is healing hots stacking.
If we can't agree on this every other discussion is pointless.
Yep. Meaningful change is a slow, methodical process with unseen moving parts. And if we have to go slow to move forward I'd be fine with that. Right now however it seems we're just standing around get CC'd and clowned at every turn in the road and not really going to any place better. And I'll be darned if I just keep taking crap from these clowns and at bare minimum -not- have a little dialogue with forums folks about it.Professor for advanced Imperial City studies and Grand Admiral of the Imperial Empire.0 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭Groups are too small. The number should be raised back to 24. More should be invested in improving networking and ping rates to improve the large-scale experience this game was created for.
Siege damage should probably scale and increase its damage proportionally based on the group size in its AOE and perhaps a percentage of ea person's health individually.
Heal stacking solutions have been addressed extensively throughout the forums and on PTS, and while the current meta is challenging (or fun depending on your view) - there are options available to deal with, pressure, and kill opposing enemy ball groups.
PvP | PvE"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
LoS3 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭StihlReign wrote: »Groups are too small. The number should be raised back to 24. More should be invested in improving networking and ping rates to improve the large-scale experience this game was created for.
Siege damage should probably scale and increase its damage proportionally based on the group size in its AOE and perhaps a percentage of ea person's health individually.
Heal stacking solutions have been addressed extensively throughout the forums and on PTS, and while the current meta is challenging (or fun depending on your view) - there are options available to deal with, pressure, and kill opposing enemy ball groups.
PvP | PvE
Props for the Sun Tzu references
Yeah you're right they can be killed, no one is unbeatable. And also I'm not against large groups banding together to fight. However I would offer that the fact that ball groups can eventually be killed does not make up for the fact that there is a world of difference between pvp armies engaging in actual battles and angry mobs of pugs/casuals/new folks/etc viciously running down a ball group in retaliation. That is not how wars are fought.
A good example is the eastern front during WWII. Look at German/Russian battle lines and how those lines shifted, what made them change and how there were defeated. There can be no PvP without battle lines, which is at least two factions facing off. One of the first thing ball groups do when they arrive at a battle is they wipe the line, then they wipe the walls.
When ball groups arrive, the PvP ends soon thereafter. And also, please don't anyone say that we need to be more coordinated. Again, pugs/casuals/average player/new player ok they are not going to be a) equipped b) experienced c) led sufficiently to enable the type of coordination that most people are talking about when make this comment. What they really mean to say, is if the people that they knew from guilds or whomever they know with experience was there with them then they would be able to coordinate something to kill the ball group faster. But reliability is kin to coordination and pugs are not reliable in this sense.
I'm not talking negative about anyone, I'm just saying that the type of coordination it would take to match a ball group's does not simply exist among the general pop at any given time. If you're not willing to bring a group together and lead them there's no point whatsoever lashing out at all of us about not meeting your expectation for what coordination should be.Edited by Vulkunne on March 3, 2024 12:48AMProfessor for advanced Imperial City studies and Grand Admiral of the Imperial Empire.2 -
ShadowPaladin✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »Ok but the counterplay is to ignore them if they aren't doing much besides that. If you and others just ran past said keep them would get bored and run away though or it would disband. I've been on all sides (group, no group, bombing, 1 v X, ECT) and they all work the same.
If I'm trying to 1 v X for a clip and no one follows me then I am now wasting my time. If I take over a keep and leave a walk down inviting people for easy access thinking it's an easy retake and no one shows I get bored and leave. If I have a scroll out in the middle of no where trying to lure people to it to farm ap. Guess what? Waste of time if no one shows and they go about their business lol.
But unfortunately far ing ap is very important especially emp runs. So in order for them to remove all different ap farms they need to rework the entire emp system. Alone with no one really caring about winning the map for the cycle because the end of season rewards need massive improvements. Like if they made reward for say huge gold payouts or exclusive styles for each season to the winning side you could probably persuade people to participate and try towards the objective. But then pve community would have a meltdown so they would never do that unfortunately.
The *ignore them, so that they won't get AP* option won't work. It would be great if it would. But I does not
. Why you ask? Simply because those groups just focus their attention on ongoing fights. For example at keeps. They wait and watch the map for keep fights popping up and then rush to those. When they arrive, they survey the situation and if it looks good, they will rush in the moment the outer gates are opened and rush up the walls, where they will circle - sometimes they will come down into the inner yard - and kill everyone in their way. Now some may say something like - *Well just ignore them by stopping the fight and leaving the keep!*. Those I can only ask, where should that end?! Should we always leave a keep when a ball-group rushes in?! Should be always stop a fight when a ball-group rushes through?! If we did that, we could stop playing PvP alltogether in Cyro 
!!!
Ingnoring them won't work. Something else must be done to counter them and that something can only be done by ZOS. There are more than enough ideas what can be done - eg. introduce new Siege-Weapon, introduce a new anti-ball-group skill, nerf setups they use, introduce a debuff which increases resource usage for using the same skill over and over again within a certain time frame or - that idea came to me just now - decrease the AP someone can gain from killing the same player(s) over and over again (1st kill = 100% AP , 2nd kill = 50% AP , 3rd kill = 20% AP , 4th kill = 5% AP).
Regarding the Emp-System. There you are right. That system needs to be reworked. If you take a look on the names of the players who are emp in each instance and during each campaign run (30 days or 7 days), you will nearly always find the same names . Also the way you can get APs couting for emp - like through ball-grouping 
- should be looked at. Edited by ShadowPaladin on March 3, 2024 1:54AM0 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From couple of days DC is running ball groups and basically they just farm and not do objective. They're ruining the fun and experience then add the status of server and frequent disconnect. It is not fun
What exactly is the "objective"? Doesn't each alliance have its own objectives which do not necessarily align with the objectives of its two enemy alliances? Why should there be only one objective?
For that matter, can't each player who visits Cyrodiil have their own objectives which do not necessarily align with those of everyone else in their alliance?I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭The objective is to kill as many enemies as possible to keep them from PvDooring the map and racking up points.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »
Negate does work, it just needs to be extremely well-timed. The downside is as a player at least, I cannot tell if the negate is against me or my opponents. Other players may run away instead of engaging for that reason.
I tried both negate and streak but they ran / dodge roll through it. You also need people to capitalize and without coordination it doesn't seem possible in pug.
And it makes sense that an organized group will perform better. The better organized and skilled the group is the more they can accomplish. Being on comms is a massive advantage.
We have taken down groups more than twice our size. We have good leadership calling out what we need to do and when. We run skills our group wants vs what we think is cool. We run together and execute as directed. No pug group or even a group off comms should expect to accomplish the same.
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FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am much more annoyed the single player or small groups camping near a questing area to gank questers. Go someplace else if you can't quest where you want.PC
PS4/PS50 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »I am much more annoyed the single player or small groups camping near a questing area to gank questers. Go someplace else if you can't quest where you want.
Yes in my opinion Zos should remove ap as reward from killing players.2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton0 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭I've talked about this in another topic. It makes absolutely no sense to put PvE skills in PvP maps simply so that these players can be massacred by PvP players. Zenimax seems to think it's fun for PvP players to kill players who have no interest in PvP whatsoever. Frankly, I don't understand this choice! I know several PvP servers where players are penalized and some even end up having their accounts banned for "farming" other players just to climb the PvP ranking or to get more kills and be seen as PvP gods when in reality, they just farmed players who weren't even moving. Here in ESO, it's the opposite. Zenimax forces PvP players to farm PvE players who have no interest whatsoever. And in the end, everyone is satisfied! PvP players are all happy because they killed completely noob players, and Zenimax is happy because, according to them, PvP zones are full of action and fights! Lol What sense does this make!?
Of course, many PvP players will say: 'We also don't like PvE and we're forced to go to PvE.' That's correct and I understand. But it's up to PvP players to request that everything necessary for PvP be implemented in actions, areas, or maps exclusively for PvP.
Killing players in PvP zones who have no interest in PvP is frustrating for those who die and should be for everyone who engages in and enjoys PvP. Unfortunately, the majority of players consider themselves superior to others in PvP just because they managed to kill (farm) 100 in a single day. Powerful stuff!
The point of ballgrouping is fundamentally to gain as much ap as possible in as little time as possible… I.E. killing loads of players who have no chance, netting you multi millions of ap per hour which you can then turn into gold by selling pots or gear ect. Ballgroups exist to combat the zergs and farm massive amounts of ap. Think of it like a pve raid. 12 of us get together in our dedicated builds and go farm people for an hour instead of doing hard mode runs or carries for our gold.0 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭
The problem with that is that ball groups became tankier and stronger over the years. ZOS releases sets without thinking of the consequences. .. perfect example of plaguebreak, dark convergence, and rush of agony. Also Ballgroups these days are walking around with 36kHP and up... I've seen some walking around with 40k HP. Strange how you can have your cake and eat it too... what kind of sets gives you both max tankiness and raw damage at the same time? I've been playing the game since the launch date, and so far I can't find any set combo that gives me both.
It is becoming quite difficult to bomb a ball group as a solo player. Perhabs if you had a 4 man with 2 dedicated bombers and 2 dedicated Sorc negate spammers... yeah you may stand a chance.
they wear damage sets and build full tank by using tanky food, putting all 64 points in hp and stacking every buff under the sun on themselves.
I see so many pugs and newer players complain about builds and sets and tankiness and damage ect.. but none of you really seem to understand how builds work or how these organized groups set up their builds to make them so tanky while doing so much damage.
TLDR course on how to build for pvp…
Pick what kind of pvp you want to do
Figure out your playstyle
Picks sets that compliment said class/playstyle
Use food potions enchants ect to fix the issues in your build (ie if your in tank or sustain sets use damage cp and mundus stones and if your in damage sets than get tanky through cp and mundas ect). This is a really simplified version of how higher lvl pvpers approach build crafting
I figured I’d add this at the bottom but this is important. Tankiness is not just about raw resistances, movement speed and sustain are both things that increase your “tankiness”. If you can block and heal forever or roll doge 4 times and outrun everyone, having the ability to full health heal in 1 skill or being able to just kite and avoid taking damage are just different forms of survivability or in other words.. tankinessEdited by cuddles_with_wroble on March 4, 2024 2:41PM0 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭Ball groups break gameplay and if they don't wipe everyone out then at least they do create a distraction wherever they go. They are the thing that is holding ESO PvP back.
There is barely any room left in which to fight them now, especially with Arcanist Beams and so much excessive amounts of CC being thrown against players fighting them. I'm so tired of eating Arcanist CC and then 15-30 something people just shooting me down, especially when there is real fighting going on between factions like everone is stuck in 1v1 and 1v2 outside a keep. The ball groups sweep thru there and not only do they kill everyone, the PvP ends... the very reason we came to the server is rudely interrupted and brought to an end by a group of 15 people basically exploiting (as far as I'm concerned) because there's no way that ESO was originally envisioned to have that kind of over-powered behavior.
No one should have this kind of power in PvP.
ZOS Devs - Ball groups are *preventing* us from PvPing so until these guys are shut down you will have people running across your servers actually putting a stop to any PvP going on, wherever they go ESO PvP has failed and sometimes almost feels like a form of abuse or harassment even.
Literally the opposite of this. Ballgroups are the highest lvl of eso pvp. It is 12 coordinated and organized people each with specific dedicated builds all doing their jobs in order to blow up large amounts of people.
You guys always say it takes no skill or it’s brain dead but I don’t see 12 of YOU blowing up 100 people in seconds like they do.
Ballgroups are also not just 12 people in damage builds, there are normally 2 main healers 3-4 real damage dealers and everyone else is there to buff and support these 2 main groups of players. There normally is 1 or 2 dedicated “negate bot” / “talon bot” players who’s only job is to cc and lock down people so that the people with the pull set (rush dark conv ect) can get as many people as possible lined up for the damage players to nuke the clump. There is ALOT of coordination in doing this and it’s not something 12 random players can pull off3 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭So, the problem is that the ball group kills you while you are trying to accomplish your objective, and even though you out number them, you don't have a chance. They can kill you, but you have no way to kill them.
The outcome is the same every time.
You want the devs to make changes such that these ball groups don't stop you from achieving your objectives. So they can't kill you as easily.
The way they do pvp ruins the game for you. You get killed, you can't stop it, all they get is AP. They are not achieving pvp objectives. They are just farming players for AP.
No one ever asked to remove BGs from the game.
No one ever said that an organized group should not be better of same randoms.
We only asked to put a limit on the broken mechanic that is healing hots stacking.
If we can't agree on this every other discussion is pointless.
For the sake of argument, let’s say they remove healstacking in pvp… then what happens, how do all these ballgroups survive?
Shields.
They will replace healers with people who just spam barrier and other good quality shielding sets and you will have the same problem. It’s still 12 coordinated organized high lvl pvpers vs a bunch of randoms with random builds not sitting in a voice call with a shotcaller.
Now let’s say they remove heals and shield stacking, well then what?
Drop healers or supports and run more damage dealers that are tankier. This way you keep the same amount of insane damage while everyone in the group is now tankier and able to hold their own outside of the group.
Either way… you’d still have the problem.
Large scale pvp is fundamentally designed this way and the only real way to fix this is to add aoe caps so we can’t kill 100 players at a time since we can only hit 5 players each.
Ps aoe caps are terrible and no one likes them. It will kill pvp if you add them 2 -
cuddles_with_wroble✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »12 man organised group in itself is not a problem. Every playstyle has its place in Cyro eco-system. But the issue is that there is no cap on max healing per second in PvP or lack of cap for the amount of "same" heals. 12 man PvP group is the only environment where realistically you can take advantage of that and fully abuse it. That is why people complain about Ball Groups. They don't complain about alliance staking (basically "zegrs").
Going further, there is an enormous disproportion between healing that 12 man group can have in PvP and amount of damage you can deal to a player. There is simply no way to dish out enough damage in order to counter the abnormal healing per second a typical ball group has. This is also the reason why you don't see (for the most part) ball groups fighting each other. Because they ALSO lack the power to counter other Ball Group. The most powerful way of playing in PvP is unable to counter itself.
The only way to make it fair is to put a cap on max number of healing effects coming from same effects/skills.
Like I have said before - every play style has its place in ESO. Every play-style has it strong points & weak points and risk vs reward. And 12 man organized group SHOULD be very powerful. It should be a force to reckon with. But the issue is, 12 man group in PvP is simply way too strong right now. It has too many strong points with no real reasonable drawbacks, literally, only because the game allows to stack HOTs infinitely. Hard to imagine how it would look like if ZOS would not reduce max group size from 24 to 12 when they were reducing Cyro population limit.
Snipe ganking used to be like this and had the same issue. Insane damage, and like 40 meters distance. Low risk, low skill cap, but huge reward. And ZOS wrecked this play-style (rightfully so if you ask me). I hope that if Ball Group with HOTs stacking will become too popular then the nerf will happen (a nerf that will only affect PvP group environment).
This is not really true, even at a small 4 man lvl in bgs having aoe vigors is a huge advantage over another team that is 4 people using solo vigor. Having cross healing is always better than not having it even when there’s only 2 of you.
It is definitely very possible to kill a ball group if you have a proper build and you know who in the group is killable, they really can’t kill outside of dumping all their ults Bcs that’s how they are built. All the damage is loaded into ultimate and synergy combos so you just gotta catch and kill 1 at a time after they’ve blown all their ults.
The main reason ballgroups don’t fight is usually Bcs the point of ballgrouping is to farm ap as fast as possible and fighting another ballgroup is normally a waste of time as it can take a long time to kill them depending on the skill disparity between the 2 groups. And also Bcs if you know you might not win the fight and it’s a really long ride back to where you are than most people just don’t wanna risk the potential death. And yes ballgroups can very easily kill each other with a good burst lineup even through the heals, we just don’t want to most of time xD1 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »Ballgroups are the highest lvl of eso pvp. It is 12
Ballgroups are just the highest level in exploting broken mechanics and sets to kill n00bs
That's all.
edit: changed "to fight n00bs" in "to kill n00bs" since there is no real fight, more like Mike Tyson against a bunch of toddler.Edited by RetPing on March 4, 2024 7:45PM4