spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

We do know tho, that OP isn't solely talking about a single person but would like to see "begging" forbidden in general in zone chat. That is clearly stated in the headline as well as a respective statement on page 2 of this thread. And that's as disgusting as the behaviour of the "beggar" in question imo. At least if the latter is truly trying to scam, which we both can't say for sure without visiting pc na.

The difference between a guild advertisement and the behavior described in this thread, or normal sales, is that the person in question acted deceitfully and bragged about it.

They were not actually just looking of a crown pack of items, and then stopped when they received it. They were lying so people would send them things, taking advantage of people who were being generous over the holidays.

That is the behavior reported in this thread by multiple users and the behavior that I am saying should be bannable. If the person is not actually guilty of that, that is something ZOS can and likely will investigate. And then decide on a course of action, to which we won't be privvy.

Regardless, that behavior is clearly different than a normal guild ad or any other legitimate ads.

There is a difference between a real charity and a charity scam.

Content isn't relevant if the question is about spam. It's sufficient to be unwanted. No ethical implications here.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/spam

As far as we talk about scamming:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/scam

Please show me how can I be tricked by a person asking for something without anything offering in return. Because I don't understand how that should be possible. It's already clear the gold (in this example) will be gone and be spent on crowns by reading the message. And by reading it in zone it is absolutely clear, that I'm not the only recipient. So, once again: What's the fraud?

Braffin wrote: »

Please show me how can I be tricked by a person asking for something without anything offering in return.

A charity scam is when you lie in order to get a charitable donation under false pretenses. You could lie about which organization you belong to (not relevant to this situation), what you claim the money is going to (what this person is doing) or what the needs people are addressing are (also what this person is allegedly doing) or any other number of things. And the FTC warns people around this time of year to watch out for them.

It is spam because the person is repeating the messages over and over even though they have already received the item they are pretending to need, and due to being a scam, disrupting the zone chat.

If the person had a legitimate need for on-going messages (buying particular items at agreed upon prices, guild advertising) or if this person wasn't lying and legitimately needed the item and just hadn't gotten it yet (similar when people buy and sell particular goods and then stop once those items are sold) then it wouldn't be spam.

But they are using deception to receive a charitable donation (charity scam) and they are repeating that message over and in doing so disrupting other users (spam).

Charity fraud is the act of using deception to obtain money from people who believe they are donating to a charity. Often, individuals or groups will present false information claiming to be a charity or associated with one, and then ask potential donors for contributions to this non-existent charity. Charity fraud encompasses not only fictitious charities but also deceptive business practices. These deceitful acts by businesses may involve accepting donations without using the funds for their intended purposes or soliciting funds under false pretenses of need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_fraud

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Please show me how can I be tricked by a person asking for something without anything offering in return.

A charity scam is when you lie in order to get a charitable donation under false pretenses. You could lie about which organization you belong to (not relevant to this situation), what you claim the money is going to (what this person is doing) or any other number of things. And the FTC warns people around this time of year to watch out for them.

It is spam because the person is repeating the messages over and over even though they have already received the item they are pretending to need, and due to being a scam, disrupting the zone chat.

If the person had a legitimate need for on-going messages (buying particular items at agreed upon prices, guild advertising) or if this person wasn't lying and legitimately needed the item and just hadn't gotten it yet (similar when people buy and sell particular goods and then stop once those items are sold) then it wouldn't be spam.

But they are using deception to receive a charitable donation (charity scam) and they are repeating that message over and in doing so disrupting other users (spam).

Do you say this person isn't spending the gold (it's not money) for themselves? I want to see proof for this claim.

All I see is saying someone: "Could you give me money because I want to buy something for myself?" That's not scam, maybe a bit impudent, but definitely no scam. They are doing so publicly on top of that.

If they said they were collecting for other players, which aren't couraged enough to do so for themselves, but keep the collected gold for themselves, well, that would be scam.

But they don't, it's stated plain and direct where the gold is going: Into the crown-store for personal leisure. And that's absolutely legitimate.

Besides that: They are going for crates, so they are basically gambling for items. How do you know they already got what they wanted? I also can't see, that they stated anywhere how many crates they intend to buy. The message contains nothing about that. A "charitable" person assuming, that they are talking about a specific amount is nothing more than that.

Sure, quite probably they are financing their virtual lifestyle this way. While this is against my personal moral code, it's not against the rules. Because, as said before, the gold is exactly going to the person stated in the message: The messenger themselves.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Charity fraud is the act of using deception to obtain money from people who believe they are donating to a charity. Often, individuals or groups will present false information claiming to be a charity or associated with one, and then ask potential donors for contributions to this non-existent charity. Charity fraud encompasses not only fictitious charities but also deceptive business practices. These deceitful acts by businesses may involve accepting donations without using the funds for their intended purposes or soliciting funds under false pretenses of need.

You know what happens when we click onto the word charity in your quote?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_organization

Show me where the person in question pretended to use the gold for philantropical means or those of social well-being. They don't, but say clearly that they're using the money for themselves.

You are confusing "generosity" (which they ask for) with charity here. That's completely different things.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Do you say this person isn't spending the gold (it's not money) for themselves? I want to see proof for this claim.

They did not state "give me this money because I want it for myself." They stated "Give me money to buy a very particular item in the crown store" and then bragged in zone chat about how they were merely amassing coin and getting the items because they were happy to take from people who are foolish enough to fall from it.

They stated they wanted A crown crate pack so they don't miss it. That's one crate pack, for the purpose of not missing it. Except they already have a crate pack so they are NOT in danger of missing it. And they bragged in zone about just keeping the coin.

That is not what they money was stated to be used for. They are lying about their need and the coins purpose.

Hugie wrote: »

Bunch of people have. Saw several in Craglorn bemoaning the fact that they'd been gullible enough to send gold only to see the messages continue. It's certainly a shame that people are getting scammed due to their kindness. When he was being confronted about it, the scammer in question openly admitted to having made 10mil+ that night alone, and to having been gifted the 8,000 crown pack the night before.

They stated they wanted the crown pack not a specific number. It doesn't matter if they buy 1 or 10.000 as far as the rules are concerned. Their bragging (openly done btw, readable for every possible donator) also isn't violating any rule. It may be disgusting, but that's not a crime.

If I'm wrong please show me the respective rule. "Spamming" and "scamming" are refuted tho.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Do you say this person isn't spending the gold (it's not money) for themselves? I want to see proof for this claim.

They did not state "give me this money because I want it for myself." They stated "Give me money to buy a very particular item in the crown store" and then bragged in zone chat about how they were merely amassing coin and getting the items because they were happy to take from people who are foolish enough to fall from it.

They stated they wanted A crown crate pack so they don't miss it. That's one crate pack, for the purpose of not missing it. Except they already have a crate pack so they are NOT in danger of missing it. And they bragged in zone about just keeping the coin.

That is not what they money was stated to be used for. They are lying about their need and the coins purpose.

Hugie wrote: »

Bunch of people have. Saw several in Craglorn bemoaning the fact that they'd been gullible enough to send gold only to see the messages continue. It's certainly a shame that people are getting scammed due to their kindness. When he was being confronted about it, the scammer in question openly admitted to having made 10mil+ that night alone, and to having been gifted the 8,000 crown pack the night before.

They stated they wanted the crown pack not a specific number. It doesn't matter if they buy 1 or 10.000 as far as the rules are concerned. Their bragging (openly done btw, readable for every possible donator) also isn't violating any rule. It may be disgusting, but that's not a crime.

If I'm wrong please show me the respective rule. "Spamming" and "scamming" are refuted tho.

Spamming and scamming are not refuted. They said a crown pack so they did not miss out.

For me they are refuted until I read a reasonable argument to convince me otherwise. Talk about "charity", the FTC and quibbling about the question if "being afraid of missing out" is safely interpretable as intending to buy a specific amount of something aren't convincing tbh.

I don't judge people based on personal feelings, but on facts and the respective written rules.

Fact is, it's not forbidden to ask for gold.

Fact is, there is no limit you aren't allowed to exceeed when asking for gold.

Fact is, it's not necessary to tell any reasons when asking for money.

Fact is, it's not necessary to tell anybody what exactly you're doing with a gift.

So this greedy little fella didn't act against the rules.

Therefore, instead of asking for unjustified disciplinary action, I wish them Merry Christmas. May they enjoy their presents.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

snip

Edit also since this part seems to have been missed last time

Charity fraud encompasses not only fictitious charities but also deceptive business practices. These deceitful acts by businesses may involve accepting donations without using the funds for their intended purposes or soliciting funds under false pretenses of need.

So no, not just fake charities.

Never embezzle the subject of a sentence when referring to it.

The quoted sentence is clearly referring to businesses. As long as the person in question didn't found a company or association for philantropical means or those of social well-being this is not a case of charity.

The marked part of the sentence is clearly taken out of context.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

snip

Edit also since this part seems to have been missed last time

Charity fraud encompasses not only fictitious charities but also deceptive business practices. These deceitful acts by businesses may involve accepting donations without using the funds for their intended purposes or soliciting funds under false pretenses of need.

So no, not just fake charities.

Never embezzle the subject of a sentence when referring to it.

The quoted sentence is clearly referring to businesses. As long as the person in question didn't found a company or association for philantropical means or those of social well-being this is not a case of charity.

The marked part of the sentence is clearly taken out of context.

No. It's not. Those rules do not apply to businesses alone. Individuals can find themselves running a foul of the same exact things. And in fact, in a video game, arguing that it be necessary to have a business license before breaking a tos rule is ofc not related.

The sentence in question of course is referring to businesses alone. "These deceitful acts by businesses" is literally the subject of the whole sentence.

If you feel otherwise, use an appropiate source, if you want to strengthen your argument. And in fact, arguing that asking for gold in a video game while making no offer in return is considered "scamming" and therefore violating ToS is ofc not related either. It's constructed to make a point and completely disproportionate.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

This whole thread, at Christmas.... even if a single person is having a go.... the idea "begging" per se should be banned, is really something.

Especially given just how many people are really generous to other players, and to new players, to think that should be seen as a bad thing.... Worse- even might trip them up into helping "beggars", which would probably also, by this reasoning, get them banned as well.

I really hope we can call time on this topic.

Charity is okay.

Charity scam is not.

If people are honest about why they need the coin, and use the coin to get what they asked for, it's not problem at all. I actually help such people from time to time, although usually only small things.

Once again: This isn't about charity. "Charity" is a defined term of law:

A charity is a nonprofit organization whose efforts are focused on aiding those in need.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/charity

In this context we can talk about charity fraud.

But if you use "charity" as synonym for "giving a gift" those rules obviously don't apply.

People aren't obliged to tell the truth to other players according to the rules Not when they are trading, not when they are joining groups and also not when they are asking for a gift (a real one, not the crown-store-"gifts" which are truly trades).

Lying is despicable, I agree, that's why we are free to refuse maintaining contact with those people. We are for example able to ignore them by using the corresponding button.

But disciplinary action should only happen if actual rules are clearly violated. That's not the case.

Pelanora wrote: »

It's enough it's deception, just fyi. Adding the term scam doesnt do anything, or whether it was for any particular purpose e.g charity. If in real life IRL, a person obtains something through deception, or causes loss by deception, it's a crime.

But that wasn't the point of the thread, it was that all begging needs to be stopped.

That's something else. And the effort of cracking down on deception for unreal property like an in game currency seems just bang out of proportion, and problematic. Given its not real property.

People spent real money to give that person their crown crates.

Braffin wrote: »

Once again: This isn't about charity. "Charity" is a defined term of law:

That's about what business can call themselves a charity. It is not about the concept of a charity scam, which both businesses and individuals can do.

The business license has nothing to do with a video game.

Scamming is against the TOS. They don't list down specific acts for obvious reasons.

But in terms of scams, things that would be generally not okay in the real world, are generally not okay in game either.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Once again: This isn't about charity. "Charity" is a defined term of law:

That's about what business can call themselves a charity. It is not about the concept of a charity scam, which both businesses and individuals can do.

The business license has nothing to do with a video game.

A scam in a video game is using deception to unfairly gain things from other players. They don't list down specific acts for obvious reasons.

But in terms of scams, things that would be generally not okay in the real world, are generally not okay in game either.

Again, individuals have been charged with fraud for charity scams on go fund me. Which businesses can call themselves is a charity is not the same thing as the concept of a charity scam.

The relevant part for the playerbase is accepting donations without using the funds for their intended purposes or soliciting funds under false pretenses of need.

It is absolutely relevant that user is alleged to have lied to get those funds. Deception is the difference maker between a scam and a legitimate transaction.

I want to see a source of your definition of charity scam. Otherwise this statement is pointless.

Also, once again, it's not scamming to ask for gold repeatedly, even if they already obtained some crates.

Maybe they simply want more of them? (Well, they obviously do, don't they?)
So they ask again for coin.

Nobody is frauded/scammed here, regardless some people feeling this way because they (not the person in question) implied something into the text, what's simply not there. It's simply the question for gold without any offered compensation. That's legitimate.

Your real world example is also wrong btw: If someone decides to walk around their neighborhood and repeatedly ask everyone they meet there for money to spend it for a little bit of luxury (because that's what crates are), people most likely refuse to help them out rather quick. Especially if said person is bragging about the newly gained wealth. But the beggar won't have to face court, simply because they didn't break the law.

The only advise I have for people, which think asking for more after recieving something should be forbidden and punishable, is: Don't try to be generous if you truly aren't and can't stand the consequences.

Braffin wrote: »

.That's not illegal but just unhealthy.

I deleted it because I don't want to get into real world examples...

Multiple people have said the person represented to them they just needed a little bit more for a crate pack that they didn't want to miss out on. And another user reported about how the person bragged about how they were just taking the coin from others.

As I said before, this is a case that ZOS would need to investigate and they'd need multiple reports.

I am not in favor of banning people just for begging. If they had been honest, then I wouldn't agree it should be banned. It is specifically the deception and the disruption that the deception is causing that makes me think it is a scam and spam.

If many users feel deceived because this user is intentionally misrepresenting things to take money from people who wouldn't give it to them had they know the truth, then that to me is not acceptable. And they deserve a ban. Specifically a temporary social ban for whatever amount of days first time offenders get, assuming this is their only offense.

Edit:

Braffin wrote: »

You still didn't provide a source btw.

2.7 You will not intentionally mislead, trick, con, swindle, deceive, hustle, grift or attempt to defraud another user, guest or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and services. Confidence schemes, trade scams, impersonations or other actions which involve tricking people using false or bogus information in an attempt to misrepresent intent or in an effort to defraud others for personal gain is strictly forbidden.

From the TOS

@spartaxoxo Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of the behaviour in question. I find it despicable and highly unethical and wouldn't give a single coin in that case.

But being unethical and acting against the rules are different things, while only the latter is sanctionable.

That is done this way for good reason as well as it's important to stick with "innocent until proven guilt". Also in video games. That's what I miss here.

What I read until now is not sufficient, we have two original messages which aren't against the rules and some rather short hearsay out of context about bragging. That's not enough to raise the banhammer imo.

An example: the quote you provided

They imply, in some of their long whiny posts, that they’ve been working so long and hard for such-and-such item and this is just the last bit they need, when really they’ve been doing this for a long time now. Multiple zones, every day.

imo refers to the first original post. There it says "I'm desperate and exhausted from grinding gold".

Don't you see the difference in this statements?

On a sidenote: This thread isn't about a single player, but demanding to "do something against beggars in zone chat". A demand both of us and the majority of other participants are refusing.

To say it blunt: Imo this very thread is violating ToS in several ways (trolling and baiting for generalizing people asking for a gift in zone chat based on a negative example of a single player, conspiracy theory and bullying/harassment for accusing said player to be a potential goldseller publicly). That's the real issue. Maybe it's time to ask @Zos_Kevin for proper moderation (preferably closing down) of this thread before further harm is done.