Can something done about Beggars in zone chat?

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

@spartaxoxo Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of the behaviour in question. I find it despicable and highly unethical and wouldn't give a single coin in that case.

But being unethical and acting against the rules are different things, while only the latter is sanctionable.

That is done this way for good reason as well as it's important to stick with "innocent until proven guilt". Also in video games. That's what I miss here.

What I read until now is not sufficient, we have two original messages which aren't against the rules and some rather short hearsay out of context about bragging. That's not enough to raise the banhammer imo.

An example: the quote you provided

They imply, in some of their long whiny posts, that they’ve been working so long and hard for such-and-such item and this is just the last bit they need, when really they’ve been doing this for a long time now. Multiple zones, every day.

imo refers to the first original post. There it says "I'm desperate and exhausted from grinding gold".

Don't you see the difference in this statements?

I saw that as someone else sharing their own experience and not talking about the picture in the original post. I would agree that this thread isn't enough to suspend on, on it's own.

I think this thread warrants an investigation because multiple users are complaining, but obviously they would not and should not report the findings of such a thing to anyone else. If the actions are as alleged, I do think the behavior as described warrants a temporary social ban.

As the username was deleted, I think the intent of this thread is to get clarity on this type of behavior in general rather than focus on this particular example. But since we don't have good other examples, that's difficult to do without discussing this particular case. I hope that they give us some information about whether or not it's against the TOS to intentionally use misleading or false information to gain donations. I also hope they don't comment on the specifics of this particular case for the user's privacy.

I also do see this as very different than begging in general. Begging honestly is not and should not be against the TOS imo.

Aurielle

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

.That's not illegal but just unhealthy.

I deleted it because I don't want to get into real world examples...

Multiple people have said the person represented to them they just needed a little bit more for a crate pack that they didn't want to miss out on. And another user reported about how the person bragged about how they were just taking the coin from others.

As I said before, this is a case that ZOS would need to investigate and they'd need multiple reports.

I am not in favor of banning people just for begging. If they had been honest, then I wouldn't agree it should be banned. It is specifically the deception and the disruption that the deception is causing that makes me think it is a scam and spam.

If many users feel deceived because this user is intentionally misrepresenting things to take money from people who wouldn't give it to them had they know the truth, then that to me is not acceptable. And they deserve a ban. Specifically a temporary social ban for whatever amount of days first time offenders get, assuming this is their only offense.

by that standard all marketing department would be guilty of a crime in all organizations as all advertisements are deceptive. Even if it just a big mac represented on the ad. Have you ever bought a food product from a fast food chain that looked like the item in the ad. Those items in the ads are not accurate representations of the product you can buy and there exists a whole skill in making food look better than it is in real life. In fact the ones you see in the ads are so doctored as to be not edible.

The other problem is this is all heresy. I'm not on pc na and have never seen it first hand. also the report of them bragging about it is from one source and is not everyone has access to that person bragging about it.

And finally there exists an ignore function. use it. move on.

I’m on PC NA and can confirm that this individual is continually spamming multiple zone chats with their requests for gold to exchange for crates all day every day, always with the same sap story of being “exhausted” from grinding for gold. The few times I’ve physically seen their character in Craglorn, well… let’s just say they’re specifically trying to take advantage of a particular population. I ignored them the second day I saw them filling zone chat with these requests, but the problem is you still see all the bickering in zone from people who have not yet blocked them. So even when you put them on ignore, they’re still able to irritate you by proxy, because people are arguing with them over their behavior.

I agree that banning someone for asking for something in zone would be an overstep, but this individual is definitely spamming, which is against the rules.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@spartaxoxo Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of the behaviour in question. I find it despicable and highly unethical and wouldn't give a single coin in that case.

But being unethical and acting against the rules are different things, while only the latter is sanctionable.

That is done this way for good reason as well as it's important to stick with "innocent until proven guilt". Also in video games. That's what I miss here.

What I read until now is not sufficient, we have two original messages which aren't against the rules and some rather short hearsay out of context about bragging. That's not enough to raise the banhammer imo.

An example: the quote you provided

They imply, in some of their long whiny posts, that they’ve been working so long and hard for such-and-such item and this is just the last bit they need, when really they’ve been doing this for a long time now. Multiple zones, every day.

imo refers to the first original post. There it says "I'm desperate and exhausted from grinding gold".

Don't you see the difference in this statements?

I saw that as someone else sharing their own experience and not talking about the picture in the original post. I would agree that this thread isn't enough to suspend on, on it's own.

I think this thread warrants an investigation because multiple users are complaining, but obviously they would not and should not report the findings of such a thing to anyone else.

As the username was deleted, I think the intent of this thread is to get clarity on this type of behavior in general. I hope that they give us some information about whether or not it's okay to use misleading or false information to gain donations is considered a scam.

If this thread were truly about a single player, it shouldn't even exist. There is a report-function for that. At least on pc na the name should be known by many players, thus it's naming/shaming to present this case publicly in forums like this imo.

The title clearly states the intent tho: "Do something against beggars (plural) in zone chat." Using a single (and rather scarce and extreme) case and base generalizations upon this is highly offensive and dishonest.

Pixiepumpkin

Here is the message they post.


That zone message is far less harmful than this person below, who I see easily 20x as much as the poster above. The one above preys on the altruistic and rich. The one below preys on the new/naive/unknowing player. The one below is much worse for the game because they take advantage of new players.

SilverBride

I keep reading that I said this and I said that and that my original post is about this and about that, but most of these claims are inaccurate.

The player in the screenshot isn't the first to make a career out of begging in zone chat. Recently there was another that kept asking for soul gems. They would claim that they were a new player and kept dying and had no way to res and were stuck, even though it was pointed out to them that they could just res to a wayshrine without soul shards. And this went on for several days in multiple zones.

A lot of players would just send them a stack of these because most of us have excess and why not help a new player. Then we found out they weren't using them for their intended purpose but were vendoring them for 6k a stack because they just didn't want to work for their own gold.

The player in the screenshot I had only seen a couple of times because I've spent a great deal of my game time in the Infinite Archive recently, but the conflict in zone chat caught my attention. Others were saying "Didn't you just need this other thing yesterday?" and other similar comments. Players were angry about being deceived.

Both of these examples have things in common. They play on the sympathy of others by making their situation sound desperate, they repeat their request for several days in multiple zones, and they then later brag about how their deception worked.

I never once said anyone asking for anything in zone should be disallowed. I never once said that the player that prompted this thread should be banned, although I think a social ban would be appropriate in this case to stop them for a few days and get their attention that maybe they shouldn't be doing this.

These are examples of players preying on the sympathies of others by creating situations where they have supposedly desperate needs just for the soul purpose of profiting from the generosity of others. These players spam their pleas in multiple zones multiple times a day and this causes conflict in zone chat. These are the beggars that something should be done about.

Pixiepumpkin

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Players in this game who make millions, who can donate millions know what they are doing and are not easily scammed.
New players who give up seemingly "worthless" materials for pennies on the dollar are scammed hourly through no fault of their own, these are the people we should be concerned for.

SilverBride

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Why can't we be concerned for both? When players try to buy mats for under market prices others immediately alert the zone as to what the price should be.

One thing being wrong doesn't mean another isn't as wrong and doesn't need to be dealt with.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Why can't we be concerned for both? When players try to buy mats for under market prices others immediately alert the zone as to what the price should be.

One thing being wrong doesn't mean another isn't as wrong and doesn't need to be dealt with.

No need to concern ourselves with something that is not concerning. I'd rather they stop the actual manipulative scamming such as COD mail scams for items with drastically lower value than their actual average sell price.

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Why can't we be concerned for both? When players try to buy mats for under market prices others immediately alert the zone as to what the price should be.

One thing being wrong doesn't mean another isn't as wrong and doesn't need to be dealt with.

No need to concern ourselves with something that is not concerning. I'd rather they stop the actual manipulative scamming such as COD mail scams for items with drastically lower value than their actual average sell price.

That is all fine but this thread is about those begging in zone chat.

Pixiepumpkin

SilverBride wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Why can't we be concerned for both? When players try to buy mats for under market prices others immediately alert the zone as to what the price should be.

One thing being wrong doesn't mean another isn't as wrong and doesn't need to be dealt with.

I understand this, but your op is like being upset that your favourite TV show has been canceled for the evening while the house is on fire. Basically, in comparison to material scammers, your concern is a non issue.

I mean. I play easily 8 or more hours a day and I rarely see people begging for millions of gold. However I see the material scammers every 30 minutes or worse.

It's really a non issue.

Sockermannen

I really do feel like this issue is being blown up in terms of seriousness. Is it annoying? yes it is. Are they honest? most likely not, but atleast you know what you’re getting into when you’re giving these people money and you’re not expecting anything in return. It’s a block and move on issue really.

There are much naster things going around zone chat that i’d rather have ZoS deal with.

SilverBride

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

and the beggars are infinitely less harmful than the ones spamming for cheap COD mats.

Why can't we be concerned for both? When players try to buy mats for under market prices others immediately alert the zone as to what the price should be.

One thing being wrong doesn't mean another isn't as wrong and doesn't need to be dealt with.

I understand this, but your op is like being upset that your favourite TV show has been canceled for the evening while the house is on fire. Basically, in comparison to material scammers, your concern is a non issue.

I mean. I play easily 8 or more hours a day and I rarely see people begging for millions of gold. However I see the material scammers every 30 minutes or worse.

It's really a non issue.

I agree that there are players asking to purchase mats for very low prices but that does not mean that my concern is any less of an issue. In my opinion the player making up false stories and playing on the sympathies of others is more damaging than someone just offering a low price for mats. At least those players aren't making up hard luck stories or claiming to be buying at market prices.

But this thread is specifically about beggars in zone chat.

Blood_again

SilverBride wrote: »

This player has been going zone to zone for several days now asking for others to give them 1 million gold because they are in such dire need of getting a crate pack.

In my opinion this is a form of exploiting other players. If this isn't against the ToS I feel that it should be.

Can anything be done about this?

1. This and later answers show that you don't have real evidence that it is a real fraud. Only speculation.
2. You call to qualify it as "against the TOS". Breaking the TOS is bannable action. Make it simple - you wish people get banned for begging in zone chat.

While I think that mentioned begging is irritating, I find OP's request awful. I would ask for sanctions against such kind of requests actually.

You know, when I saw movie characters who said like "This dirty beggar near us... he may be a criminal. He must be punished"... I thought that was some kind of exaggeration, a grotesque. I have to accept that I was wrong. It's sad.

SilverBride

Blood_again wrote: »

This and later answers show that you don't have real evidence that it is a real fraud. Only speculation.

Others have posted that they heard this player bragging in Craglorn about how much gold they have amassed by doing this.

Blood_again wrote: »

Make it simple - you wish people get banned for begging in zone chat.

I will not confirm something that is not true.

I think that a warning would suffice, and if that doesn't stop the behavior then maybe a few days social ban. But I am not trying to get players banned from the game when there are less harsh options that may correct the behavior.

spartaxoxo

Do you mean begging in general?

Like do you view the scenario in the OP the same as something like...

Someone says in zone chat "Please help, I need some coin to buy a mount from the stable master" and then when someone sends them the coin, they say "thanks for the mount" and go on their merry way, with their newly purchased mount.

Because to me, something like that would be very different.

Blood_again

SilverBride wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

This and later answers show that you don't have real evidence that it is a real fraud. Only speculation.

Others have posted that they heard this player bragging in Craglorn about how much gold they have amassed by doing this.

Blood_again wrote: »

Make it simple - you wish people get banned for begging in zone chat.

I will not confirm something that is not true.

I think that a warning would suffice, and if that doesn't stop the behavior then maybe a few days social ban. But I am not trying to get players banned from the game when there are less harsh options that may correct the behavior.

Just read your topic again.
Calling against beggars, not scammers. Before having any evidence.
This topic is clearly not a request for evidence, but for disciplinary actions without any.

Now you tell me which kind of punishment would be good for them in this case. Really? This is priceless.

valenwood_vegan

This is really still going?

No one on the forums can actually resolve this matter... just report the player and enjoy life once more.

If you feel ZoS has not responded properly to said report, maybe post a ticket number and ask Kevin to look into it?

I really don't get the point of going on and on about such a trifle.

Also, Happy Holidays!

SilverBride

Blood_again wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I think that a warning would suffice, and if that doesn't stop the behavior then maybe a few days social ban. But I am not trying to get players banned from the game when there are less harsh options that may correct the behavior.

Now you tell me which kind of punishment would be good for them in this case.

I already did in my post quoted above.

SilverBride

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

I actually don't mind if people want a little something nice for Christmas. I've sent some presents out before in the past, and will continue to do so. I know there's always the risk that someone is scamming and the things they say to get donations aren't true. But, most people asking for things in zone aren't doing that. There is just something they really want but for whatever reason, can't get without a little bit of help. I don't see anything wrong with asking for it.

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

And the fact that some people are trying to agitate against people asking for support by purposefully blurring the boundaries of scamming and begging is enough for me to oppose this spiteful behaviour.

Begging isn't against the rules and that's absolutely fine. Nonetheless this entire thread isn't arguing against scamming but begging specifically.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

I actually don't mind if people want a little something nice for Christmas. I've sent some presents out before in the past, and will continue to do so. I know there's always the risk that someone is scamming and the things they say to get donations aren't true. But, most people asking for things in zone aren't doing that. There is just something they really want but for whatever reason, can't get without a little bit of help. I don't see anything wrong with asking for it.

I would agree if this were an isolated case. But this isn't a matter of someone really wanting one item badly, and now it's available for a limited time and they can't afford the crowns to get it themselves, and don't have enough gold to buy the crowns. That I could sympathize with. But in the case I presented the item and story changes by the day.

ClowdyAllDay

the majority of the dissent in this thread exists because we lack a proper ignore function. a proper ignore function would prevent me from seeing op online at all the way it works in game. i may be presuming a lot but i think most dissenters would put op on ignore if it actually ignored them rather than just put them on spoiler hide.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

I actually don't mind if people want a little something nice for Christmas. I've sent some presents out before in the past, and will continue to do so. I know there's always the risk that someone is scamming and the things they say to get donations aren't true. But, most people asking for things in zone aren't doing that. There is just something they really want but for whatever reason, can't get without a little bit of help. I don't see anything wrong with asking for it.

I would agree if this were an isolated case. But this isn't a matter of someone really wanting one item badly, and now it's available for a limited time and they can't afford the crowns to get it themselves, and don't have enough gold to buy the crowns. That I could sympathize with. But in the case I presented the item and story changes by the day.

Well, that case isn't. And I would consider the behavior as described scamming because they specifically use false information to get those donations rather than considering it begging. Because begging is innocent most times.

To me, this is kind of like mudballs. Mudballs are not automatically considered harassment. And I don't think begging should automatically be considered a problem either.

If this person really had just wanted the crates and stopped when they got them, I'd be happy for them. The issue for me isn't even them wanting multiple items either. For me personally, it's solely the deception that's the issue with the scenario described in this thread. But that's a rather rare and extreme example, not really a good example of begging as a whole.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If this person really had just wanted the crates and stopped when they got them, I'd be happy for them.

Same.

Blackbird_V

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

I actually don't mind if people want a little something nice for Christmas. I've sent some presents out before in the past, and will continue to do so. I know there's always the risk that someone is scamming and the things they say to get donations aren't true. But, most people asking for things in zone aren't doing that. There is just something they really want but for whatever reason, can't get without a little bit of help. I don't see anything wrong with asking for it.

I would agree if this were an isolated case. But this isn't a matter of someone really wanting one item badly, and now it's available for a limited time and they can't afford the crowns to get it themselves, and don't have enough gold to buy the crowns. That I could sympathize with. But in the case I presented the item and story changes by the day.

Well, that case isn't. And I would consider the behavior as described scamming because they specifically use false information to get those donations rather than considering it begging. Because begging is innocent most times.

To me, this is kind of like mudballs. Mudballs are not automatically considered harassment. And I don't think begging should automatically be considered a problem either.

If this person really had just wanted the crates and stopped when they got them, I'd be happy for them.

About mudballs............

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ix8f0/psa_mud_balls_can_be_considered_harassment/
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5j0nxf/i_asked_if_throwing_mud_balls_would_get_me_banned/

LalMirchi

I agree with OP that incessant begging (and boasting about the gains?) is annoying, not sure if such behavior should incur penalties.

After reading this thread I have meticulously disabled Zone chat for every character. After a couple of days I'm pleased with the result, no more annoying beggars, sellers, guild ads etc. It's so much more relaxing to play without the chat bloat.

spartaxoxo

Blackbird_V wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that this player is using Christmas as leverage to garner more sympathy by including "It's all I want for Christmas" in their spam makes this all the more deplorable to me.

I actually don't mind if people want a little something nice for Christmas. I've sent some presents out before in the past, and will continue to do so. I know there's always the risk that someone is scamming and the things they say to get donations aren't true. But, most people asking for things in zone aren't doing that. There is just something they really want but for whatever reason, can't get without a little bit of help. I don't see anything wrong with asking for it.

I would agree if this were an isolated case. But this isn't a matter of someone really wanting one item badly, and now it's available for a limited time and they can't afford the crowns to get it themselves, and don't have enough gold to buy the crowns. That I could sympathize with. But in the case I presented the item and story changes by the day.

Well, that case isn't. And I would consider the behavior as described scamming because they specifically use false information to get those donations rather than considering it begging. Because begging is innocent most times.

To me, this is kind of like mudballs. Mudballs are not automatically considered harassment. And I don't think begging should automatically be considered a problem either.

If this person really had just wanted the crates and stopped when they got them, I'd be happy for them.

About mudballs............

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5ix8f0/psa_mud_balls_can_be_considered_harassment/
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5j0nxf/i_asked_if_throwing_mud_balls_would_get_me_banned/

Yes. The official policy is that mudballs aren't automatically against the rules. But you have to stop if you're asked. If you keep continuously throwing mudballs at someone after they asked you to stop, then it's considered a form of harassment. And you may end up breaking the rules. So throwing mudballs is not itself a problem, but under certain conditions it can be.

I also believe that begging is not itself a problem, but under certain conditions it can be. When begging, you can ask for anything you want. When engaging in trade, you can set your prices at any price you want. But you can't make false claims for personal gain. That's when it crosses the line. I think that based on this from the TOS/COC. And also just the general concept of what is considered fraud when it comes to donations/charity.

2.7 You will not intentionally mislead, trick, con, swindle, deceive, hustle, grift or attempt to defraud another user, guest or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and services. Confidence schemes, trade scams, impersonations or other actions which involve tricking people using false or bogus information in an attempt to misrepresent intent or in an effort to defraud others for personal gain is strictly forbidden.

So I personally think that is the line. If it's honest. Begging is not automatically against the rules. Nor should it be, imo

spartaxoxo

The dwellers of Tamriel thank you for taking time from your adventures to report this offense. Maintaining the integrity of the land is a priority. We will investigate this matter and take appropriate action.

To protect individual privacy, we do not disclose the outcome of our investigation.

Please also be aware that you can add players whose behavior you find objectionable to the ignore list. To do this, open your contacts list (default: O) and click on the "No Entry" icon in the upper right corner. Now you have the option to add players. You can also do this by right-clicking on a player's name and choosing "Ignore". Once this is done, messages from the player in question will no longer be able to reach you.

Whenever I report someone, I am told by ZOS there is the option to manually add them to an ignore list on PC. And to contact Sony/Xbox for how to do that if I'm on console. Is it not the case this is necessary? Can't say I have ever paid attention to if they were also blocked on console.

KlauthWarthog

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Here is the message they post.

That zone message is far less harmful than this person below, who I see easily 20x as much as the poster above. The one above preys on the altruistic and rich. The one below preys on the new/naive/unknowing player. The one below is much worse for the game because they take advantage of new players.

I remember seeing the second message there twice... then I blocked that player.
I do not remember seeing the first message, so it is either someone I already blocked before, or my brain is filtering those things off automatically. Play MMOs long enough, and your brain starts doing that on its own.