Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

The above sound good, but I would like to add to it if I may. Getting to the final boss in arc 1 can be a pain too, if you could remove the one hit and confusing mechanics from the albeit edited trial bosses in arc 1, it would go a long way to helping me get my daily. Having to see when to enter a portal or when to stand behind a protrusion to not be insta-killed would be nice too as the prompts are confusing to me...

I get that they want to teach some of the mechanics for the trial bosses in there, but as I have no desire to ever go into a trial it is just a deadly nuisance. Adding a delve/public dungeon boss as the very first boss encountered ramping up from there but not putting in a trial boss as 4th boss encountered in first arc would at least give me a good chance of completing arc 1.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

colossalvoids · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

The ones in the middle, those who want to learn or experience something more than a base game mob, accompanied with some different, new or fun mechanics. The difficulty (or lack of thereof) of a stage provides them a new playground as they might not reach or enjoy second one as much.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

The ones in the middle, those who want to learn or experience something more than a base game mob, accompanied with some different, new or fun mechanics. The difficulty (or lack of thereof) of a stage provides them a new playground as they might not reach or enjoy second one as much.

I was talking strictly about arc 1 here. If the "ones in the middle" want to learn new mechanics nothing is stopping them as there are MANY more arcs for them to practice with that don't hurt their ability to get the daily done.

If you are against this very simple change then all I can say is that you want to make life harder for some players. By not allowing them to play it, by keeping barriers to them in place it creates haves and have nots, and that should not be what any game played for fun should boil down to IMO.

Edit to add: Yes there is a barrier between those that do trials and those, like me, that cannot. The distinction here is that trials were/are designed for teams of players working in co-ordination to clear the challenge and were never sold as content for everyone. EA was marketed and something for everybody, hence no normal/vet switch.

Braffin · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

The above sound good, but I would like to add to it if I may. Getting to the final boss in arc 1 can be a pain too, if you could remove the one hit and confusing mechanics from the albeit edited trial bosses in arc 1, it would go a long way to helping me get my daily. Having to see when to enter a portal or when to stand behind a portal to not be insta-killed would be nice too as the prompts are confusing to me...

I get that they want to teach some of the mechanics for the trial bosses in there, but as I have no desire to ever go into a trial it is just a deadly nuisance. Adding a delve/public dungeon boss as the very first boss encountered ramping up from there but not putting in a trial boss as 4th boss encountered in first arc would at least give me a good chance of completing arc 1.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

You're still talking about "trial bosses" in EA? There aren't any. All bosses and their respective mechanics are exclusively made for the new content.

That has nothing to do with preparing anyone for trial mechanics, as the bosses over there are almost completely different (Well, the looks are the same, but that's it.).

Yes, completing Arc 1 maybe can be a bit challenging for a below-average player. EA is intended to work this way and would fail it's purpose if Arc 1 could be done without any effort.

Every player has the very same 2 options:
1) Get behind the reason of failing by adjusting one's build and tactics. For example I advised you to play more defensively and don't try to hit block at the very last moment possible, if you die constantly due to failed blocking.
2) Decide to not being interested in the challenge EA has to offer and move on.

Either way, while slight adjustments to specific encounters are reasonable and maybe necessary, the complete elimination of any challenge in Arc 1would be unfair for real casual players, which want to experience EA as intended, but aren't "elite" enough to progress into Arc 2.

In another thread about EA you said you are only interested in killing things and a few hours together with your companion on the difficulty level of delves or public dungeons in a chilled manner.

Well, there are currently 160 delves (cyrodiil and craglorn excluded) and 33 public dungeons available in this game for killing things casually.

Honestly, is that not enough?

Or is all that talk in reality about shiny rewards in the end?

Araneae6537 · November 2023

Jaraal wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I've only gotten past the Arc 1 final boss one time solo and was only able to do that because I had a verse that was a giant green eye or orb that kept aggro off me so I could do damage. Without that I spend all my time running from the boss and the constant aoe and can't stand still long enough to do any damage.

That is a lot for Arc 1.

What class are you? If DK, try using Flames of Oblivion, and run multiple shields with Infernal Guardian for guided missile type damage that you can inflict while running/retreating if your DPS is low. IG is also a ranged AOE, and good for taking out those pesky range casters in the trash packs. Any class can also run Spiked Bone Shield, which gives you a 14k shield that returns 100% of melee damage to the attackers (and procs IG.)

Jorvuld's Guidance is great for extending the duration of your damage shields, as well as Major buffs. If you run Jorvuld's with Daedric Trickery, you will have 3 of the set's Major buffs up at all times overlapping. Also, certain werewolf builds are highly effective in the EA. Consider what sets might scale well with the layout of the Archive, and if you get the World skill buff verse, it's all over for the enemies.

If I have to micromanage as though I am going into a veteran trial for an Arc 1 boss then I give up trying to solo it.

And I still say this boss is disproportionately difficulty for Arc 1.

arc 1 tho'at isnt too much to manage, theres only like 4 mechanics you have to deal with

kite ice patches, dont do direct dmg to the mirror shield, kite the eye beam after she throws the sword, and block the heavy attack

in later tho'at fights you have to also deal with the additional bosses showing up in the fights, and managing to focus them down 1 at a time so your not dealing with more than 2 bosses at once

I honestly breathe a sigh of relief when I get to the Tho'ats, because the fights are pretty straightforward, and they give you plenty of room to work with... unlike the platforms. Just last night I pulled High Kinlord Rilis, which is usually a cakewalk, but at one point he put me in a blue bubble and literally chucked me off the platform to my death.

I'm not a fan of situations over which I have no control. The Tho'at fight is easy to control, once you understand exactly what is happening, and how to prioritize what's going on.

Any advice for facing Tho’at at the end of arc 3? Going to try again with a guildmate tomorrow!

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

The above sound good, but I would like to add to it if I may. Getting to the final boss in arc 1 can be a pain too, if you could remove the one hit and confusing mechanics from the albeit edited trial bosses in arc 1, it would go a long way to helping me get my daily. Having to see when to enter a portal or when to stand behind a portal to not be insta-killed would be nice too as the prompts are confusing to me...

I get that they want to teach some of the mechanics for the trial bosses in there, but as I have no desire to ever go into a trial it is just a deadly nuisance. Adding a delve/public dungeon boss as the very first boss encountered ramping up from there but not putting in a trial boss as 4th boss encountered in first arc would at least give me a good chance of completing arc 1.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

You're still talking about "trial bosses" in EA? There aren't any. All bosses and their respective mechanics are exclusively made for the new content.

That has nothing to do with preparing anyone for trial mechanics, as the bosses over there are almost completely different (Well, the looks are the same, but that's it.).

Yes, completing Arc 1 maybe can be a bit challenging for a below-average player. EA is intended to work this way and would fail it's purpose if Arc 1 could be done without any effort.

Every player has the very same 2 options:
1) Get behind the reason of failing by adjusting one's build and tactics. For example I advised you to play more defensively and don't try to hit block at the very last moment possible, if you die constantly due to failed blocking.
2) Decide to not being interested in the challenge EA has to offer and move on.

Either way, while slight adjustments to specific encounters are reasonable and maybe necessary, the complete elimination of any challenge in Arc 1would be unfair for real casual players, which want to experience EA as intended, but aren't "elite" enough to progress into Arc 2.

In another thread about EA you said you are only interested in killing things and a few hours together with your companion on the difficulty level of delves or public dungeons in a chilled manner.

Well, there are currently 160 delves (cyrodiil and craglorn excluded) and 33 public dungeons available in this game for killing things casually.

Honestly, is that not enough?

Or is all that talk in reality about shiny rewards in the end?

I distinctly stated multiple times EDITED trial bosses.

And the reward means nothing to me actually, I already have over 35k currency from all the failed attempts in there now.

What DOES bother me is that this is the ONLY content released for this season and as such it is a waste of dev time when not everyone can get the damn daily done!

As for the other delves/public dungeons etc. you mentioned (not counting the PvP areas as I won't do those), I have 12 characters and 6 of them have cadwell gold. To say I wanted something new is a MAJOR understatement, but if removing one lousy boss from the first arc is a bridge too far, I'll just not bother this thread with my comments any longer!

Braffin · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

The above sound good, but I would like to add to it if I may. Getting to the final boss in arc 1 can be a pain too, if you could remove the one hit and confusing mechanics from the albeit edited trial bosses in arc 1, it would go a long way to helping me get my daily. Having to see when to enter a portal or when to stand behind a portal to not be insta-killed would be nice too as the prompts are confusing to me...

I get that they want to teach some of the mechanics for the trial bosses in there, but as I have no desire to ever go into a trial it is just a deadly nuisance. Adding a delve/public dungeon boss as the very first boss encountered ramping up from there but not putting in a trial boss as 4th boss encountered in first arc would at least give me a good chance of completing arc 1.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

You're still talking about "trial bosses" in EA? There aren't any. All bosses and their respective mechanics are exclusively made for the new content.

That has nothing to do with preparing anyone for trial mechanics, as the bosses over there are almost completely different (Well, the looks are the same, but that's it.).

Yes, completing Arc 1 maybe can be a bit challenging for a below-average player. EA is intended to work this way and would fail it's purpose if Arc 1 could be done without any effort.

Every player has the very same 2 options:
1) Get behind the reason of failing by adjusting one's build and tactics. For example I advised you to play more defensively and don't try to hit block at the very last moment possible, if you die constantly due to failed blocking.
2) Decide to not being interested in the challenge EA has to offer and move on.

Either way, while slight adjustments to specific encounters are reasonable and maybe necessary, the complete elimination of any challenge in Arc 1would be unfair for real casual players, which want to experience EA as intended, but aren't "elite" enough to progress into Arc 2.

In another thread about EA you said you are only interested in killing things and a few hours together with your companion on the difficulty level of delves or public dungeons in a chilled manner.

Well, there are currently 160 delves (cyrodiil and craglorn excluded) and 33 public dungeons available in this game for killing things casually.

Honestly, is that not enough?

Or is all that talk in reality about shiny rewards in the end?

.

It isn't the only released content in Q4. There are a lot of new leads to hunt for example. A very chilling experience imo and with nicely designed rewards on top of that.

Your argument about new content is as inconsistent as even possible, because putting already known bosses from delves and PD into EA doesn't make them new. They would stay the same as you already know them from countless visits in their respective places.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

The ones in the middle, those who want to learn or experience something more than a base game mob, accompanied with some different, new or fun mechanics. The difficulty (or lack of thereof) of a stage provides them a new playground as they might not reach or enjoy second one as much.

I was talking strictly about arc 1 here. If the "ones in the middle" want to learn new mechanics nothing is stopping them as there are MANY more arcs for them to practice with that don't hurt their ability to get the daily done.

If you are against this very simple change then all I can say is that you want to make life harder for some players. By not allowing them to play it, by keeping barriers to them in place it creates haves and have nots, and that should not be what any game played for fun should boil down to IMO.

Edit to add: Yes there is a barrier between those that do trials and those, like me, that cannot. The distinction here is that trials were/are designed for teams of players working in co-ordination to clear the challenge and were never sold as content for everyone. EA was marketed and something for everybody, hence no normal/vet switch.

EA was designed around duo play. The devs literally said it in the EA preview. It was sept 14th this year. You can do it solo but it was balanced for 2 people. Heck they said it in the necrom preview. They said they specifically that they got a ton of requests for 2 person content following the release of maelstrom and this was the first time they were able to do that.

You can do literally any dungeon in the game solo with the exception of icp and direfrost, i might be forgetting one.. but not because of difficulty but because they have switches that require two people. Its gonna be harder because its balanced around a team of four. Lots of people do and not just the sweatys. The same thing was said about bastion but it was always designed for a team.

Not everything will be soloable for everyone. Full stop. I cant solo everything even though i would be considered an end game player. Im not over here calling for vet dlcs to be nerfed because i cant solo all of them. I grab a friend. Make use of the group finder if you dont have someone who wants to. Its no coincidence they released them in the same update.

And tbh while i can play it solo and I have I fully intend to spend most of my time in there with a buddy because honestly its just more fun that way.

Jaraal · November 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I've only gotten past the Arc 1 final boss one time solo and was only able to do that because I had a verse that was a giant green eye or orb that kept aggro off me so I could do damage. Without that I spend all my time running from the boss and the constant aoe and can't stand still long enough to do any damage.

That is a lot for Arc 1.

What class are you? If DK, try using Flames of Oblivion, and run multiple shields with Infernal Guardian for guided missile type damage that you can inflict while running/retreating if your DPS is low. IG is also a ranged AOE, and good for taking out those pesky range casters in the trash packs. Any class can also run Spiked Bone Shield, which gives you a 14k shield that returns 100% of melee damage to the attackers (and procs IG.)

Jorvuld's Guidance is great for extending the duration of your damage shields, as well as Major buffs. If you run Jorvuld's with Daedric Trickery, you will have 3 of the set's Major buffs up at all times overlapping. Also, certain werewolf builds are highly effective in the EA. Consider what sets might scale well with the layout of the Archive, and if you get the World skill buff verse, it's all over for the enemies.

If I have to micromanage as though I am going into a veteran trial for an Arc 1 boss then I give up trying to solo it.

And I still say this boss is disproportionately difficulty for Arc 1.

arc 1 tho'at isnt too much to manage, theres only like 4 mechanics you have to deal with

kite ice patches, dont do direct dmg to the mirror shield, kite the eye beam after she throws the sword, and block the heavy attack

in later tho'at fights you have to also deal with the additional bosses showing up in the fights, and managing to focus them down 1 at a time so your not dealing with more than 2 bosses at once

I honestly breathe a sigh of relief when I get to the Tho'ats, because the fights are pretty straightforward, and they give you plenty of room to work with... unlike the platforms. Just last night I pulled High Kinlord Rilis, which is usually a cakewalk, but at one point he put me in a blue bubble and literally chucked me off the platform to my death.

I'm not a fan of situations over which I have no control. The Tho'at fight is easy to control, once you understand exactly what is happening, and how to prioritize what's going on.

Any advice for facing Tho’at at the end of arc 3? Going to try again with a guildmate tomorrow!

Interrupt and kill the blobs first, don't stand in the silver puddles outlined in red, block her extremely telegraphed heavy attack, stay away from the laser beam, and stop damaging her when she uses the shield, as that spawns more blobs. While doing those things, focus on burning her down and ignore the shard atronach that spawns until she is dead. Then focus the atro, and ignore the manticora until the atro is dead, then kill the manticora, and collect your reward.

Be aware that the atro and manticora can spawn the blobs, just like Tho'at does. That is why it's important to focus one boss at a time, to avoid being overwhelmed by blob spawns that will one shot you if you leave them alone long enough. You need to be scanning the whole field for the blobs at all times. Master Malkhest will always be on one, but he can't kill one by himself. Adjust your area of affect color cue to something that stands out better in the black and silver than dark red does. Change it to pink or yellow for better visibilty. Also, when the manticora spawns shards in the sky, you have to roll dodge that the moment it falls or take heavy damage... a one shot if you aren't super tanky.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

I will say that I don't think it's at all the case that trial bosses in EA are completely different. I had strong hints of what to do from having done the trials (mostly only on normal but I do have some vet experience). Their moves are reminiscent of their proper encounters, such that a person with experience in that content will have a leg up on those that don't. As it should be.

Lugaldu · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

The above sound good, but I would like to add to it if I may. Getting to the final boss in arc 1 can be a pain too, if you could remove the one hit and confusing mechanics from the albeit edited trial bosses in arc 1, it would go a long way to helping me get my daily. Having to see when to enter a portal or when to stand behind a protrusion to not be insta-killed would be nice too as the prompts are confusing to me...

I get that they want to teach some of the mechanics for the trial bosses in there, but as I have no desire to ever go into a trial it is just a deadly nuisance. Adding a delve/public dungeon boss as the very first boss encountered ramping up from there but not putting in a trial boss as 4th boss encountered in first arc would at least give me a good chance of completing arc 1.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

I'm also still extremely annoyed by the completely unbalanced difficulty level of the various bosses that already appear in arc 1. Sometimes there is a boss there that you kill in a few seconds and then another boss comes along that knocks you off the platform with its mechanics or AoE and Ads take over the entire platform. There may be people who need this form of challenge, but I still believe that it is unbalanced and that more complicated opponents should only come after the first Tho´at fight. At the moment I feel like I'm playing the lottery, if I come through the portal and already see the Snake or the dragon, then I end the run immediately.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Here's what that they said in the update preview stream. Just so everyone has the reference. Since this particular part of the stream has been referenced multiple times throughout the thread. I tried to just quote the relevant bits and there may be some transcription errors, so I would encourage you to watch the parts of the stream yourself, if you're able. These particular parts are only a few minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugEQ2KvDL4&t=3545s

The first quote is about 54 minutes in.

The second quote is about 57 minutes in.

Finn: ....Endless Archive is a brand-new gameplay experience for update 40. You can venture in here solo, or with a companion, or with a friend. . . .

Gina: Let's talk a little bit about why you decided to build this new system now.

Finn: .....ESO is 9 years old. So, there's a lot of content that we have built. And this gives us an opportunity to showcase some of that content for players that have seen it before, but this in a brand-new way. Like I said, you can come in here solo or duo. So, seeing some of the trial and dungeon bosses that you maybe fought with 4 or 12 players, now you gonna have to fight it with 2 players or maybe even solo. But, not only that! We also have content from all-over Tamriel that we're pulling in here. So, you're going to find some quest bosses, you're going to find some group bosses, you're going to find some delve and public dungeon spaces, so...

Rich: Yea, and the intent with this is it's a little more systemic.

Finn: For sure

Rich: And a little bit....There's a little more meat on the bones, so to speak. With a lot of players we get feedback where they love the dungeons, but they're kind of one and done. They go in there and do the content, they get the drops they want, and then there done with it. Where with this, because it's systemically endless, and there's tons of stuff in here to kinda earn, and get, and learn, it's a little bit meatier. So, there's more content for players for players to kinda dig into.

Finn: And to touch on duo a little bit, we've had that request since Maelstrom really came out.

Rich: Yeah, it's definitely not a foreign concept.

Finn: Yeah, to do duo content. So, when Maelstrom first came out, it was originally planned to

Rich: Fun Fact!

Finn: Fun Fact! Yeah, when Maelstrom originally came out, it was designed to be solo, duo, or 4-players. And as development went on, as happens, we had to make sure the features fit kinda of where they needed to be. So, this is the first time we've actually been able to actually explore duo content.

Personally, this does not say to me that it's exclusively balanced around duo. It tells me that it's meant to be done solo, duo, or with a companion. And that they were excited to be able to offer duo content, because it's something they've wanted to do for a long time.

edit:

As I was watching this for the time, I came across another section that speaks to solo vs duo. I had trouble seeing who was speaking when it went to picture and picture.

Around 1 hour and 19 minutes in....

Gina: .......So, I want to answer a couple comment questions that keep popping up in chat.

Finn and Rich: okay

Gina: So there is no difficulty....there is no normal or vet.

Finn????: correct

Gina: It's just you can do solo or you can do duo.

Rich???: The difficult comes from how deep you get.

Gina: How far you get.

Rich????: Yeah. It gets harder. It gets a lot harder. HAHA

Finn: To clarify a little bit, there is no difference between solo or duo difficulty. So, if Rich was in here solo, the monsters would have the same amount of health. The same amount of damage.

Rich?? Yup

Finn??? SO you really have to build your character a specific way in order to kinda tackle solo. You have a little more flexibility with duo. But, for those people with 1 friend, this is the perfect piece of content.

Rich?? WOWWWWW! Why did you look at Gina when you said that?

Gina: HAHAHAHA. We looked at each other. HAHAHA

Rich: Wow!!

So, it's designed to be doable solo, but they expect people to have to build for it to really succeed using a solo playstyle. If you want more flexibility in your build choices, grab a friend.

Four_Fingers · November 2023

The only thing I ask for is a larger platform or smaller dragon for that fight.
Bad enough fighting a dragon and then having to constantly worry about being knocked off the platform.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Also this is how console is doing leaderboard wise for solos, in case anyone is interested.

Edit:

This is how I have did on the solo leaderboard so far (took this screenshot when I first got it, since moved down), just to give an idea of where I'm at with the content.

I think that people who have done all of the achievements for Vet Vateshran and Vet Maelstrom Arena should be able to make it to at least as far as the Undaunted bust. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to make it to later levels without exceptional talent. Currently, the leaderboard shows not many have beat arc 4 and got the trophy. But, its still early yet. I'm sure as time goes on, more people will.

Having made it to arc 4, but not beaten it, I have to say I think there are two main issues that stood out to me, difficulty wise.

During the fight with Tho'at, sometimes tentacles cover the blobs and then you can't find them easily, and you die to the attacks. I think the tentacles should knock back the blobs if they spawn on them, so they can be visible to the player.

And the marauders are overtuned, especially their light attacks. And which add pulls they spawn with have a huge impact on success. I'd like to see them come in place of wave 2, and for their light attacks damage to be nerfed.

If those two issues were resolved, I think the solo vs duo difficulty would be pretty good.

Edit:

These should be taken with a grain of salt though as there are issues with the leaderboard.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Four_Fingers wrote: »

The only thing I ask for is a larger platform or smaller dragon for that fight.
Bad enough fighting a dragon and then having to constantly worry about being knocked off the platform.

Constantly move around the dragon in a circle. Watch out for him to rear his wing or tail, but you shouldn't be knocked around too much if you're circle strafing.

colossalvoids · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Nebs wrote: »

...snip

I don't think the Archive is perfect, but I hate the idea of introducing a Veteran mode. There's actually something I'd like to see done to make the Archive easier: some actual feedback from Tho'at's Shard blobs in her fight. I hate that if you don't have line of sight on them and they're hiding in the mess of effects on that battlefield, you have absolutely no feedback for telling you that you're being attacked by something.
I think the imps Heavy Attacks are also very poorly broadcasted.
I think the poison injection from archers is poor broadcasted
I also think the bleed effect from the flaming marauder is poorly communicated. How about putting an effect on me I can see so I don't have to use an add-on to learn why I'm suddenly dying.

If the elites don't even notice any of the bosses in arc 1 anyways, as has been said many times here, but it helps some others players get their daily, then who does it hurt?

edit: clarity

The ones in the middle, those who want to learn or experience something more than a base game mob, accompanied with some different, new or fun mechanics. The difficulty (or lack of thereof) of a stage provides them a new playground as they might not reach or enjoy second one as much.

I was talking strictly about arc 1 here. If the "ones in the middle" want to learn new mechanics nothing is stopping them as there are MANY more arcs for them to practice with that don't hurt their ability to get the daily done.

If you are against this very simple change then all I can say is that you want to make life harder for some players. By not allowing them to play it, by keeping barriers to them in place it creates haves and have nots, and that should not be what any game played for fun should boil down to IMO.

Edit to add: Yes there is a barrier between those that do trials and those, like me, that cannot. The distinction here is that trials were/are designed for teams of players working in co-ordination to clear the challenge and were never sold as content for everyone. EA was marketed and something for everybody, hence no normal/vet switch.

Me too, because not everyone can or want (or have no point literally, it's just more of the same) to go past the first arc. Not everyone cares about dailies also, but about their experience there. At the very least I wasn't when starting out, it was all about the experience. Anything you'd ask for would kill something there for some player. It's not only about just making someone's life easier, it's also about making someone's experience lackluster or not making them interested in it at all for the sake of people already not enjoying it (who might still not find it enjoyable after any possible changes).

I'm very well aware of people who enjoying only the first stage and doing it repeatedly without any interest in going forward for now, imagine lowering their bosses pools (the fun part) because someone can't observe mechanics around them, or making bosses even more like a quest ones where you don't really need to follow eny mech whatsoever. Surely it would benefit some, whist inevitably hurting others. And sorry, I'm feeling for those "others" a bit more as those tend to make progress further into the game becoming ones who I play with.

Inclusivity it a good thing overall, but if it's not inclusive enough already there should be some other ways of doing so, like one more mode before first orch or something, without blatantly changing what's already on a plate for some.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Here's what that they said in the update preview stream. Just so everyone has the reference. Since this particular part of the stream has been referenced multiple times throughout the thread. I tried to just quote the relevant bits and there may be some transcription errors, so I would encourage you to watch the parts of the stream yourself, if you're able. These particular parts are only a few minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RugEQ2KvDL4&t=3545s

The first quote is about 54 minutes in.

The second quote is about 57 minutes in.

Finn: ....Endless Archive is a brand-new gameplay experience for update 40. You can venture in here solo, or with a companion, or with a friend. . . .

Gina: Let's talk a little bit about why you decided to build this new system now.

Finn: .....ESO is 9 years old. So, there's a lot of content that we have built. And this gives us an opportunity to showcase some of that content for players that have seen it before, but this in a brand-new way. Like I said, you can come in here solo or duo. So, seeing some of the trial and dungeon bosses that you maybe fought with 4 or 12 players, now you gonna have to fight it with 2 players or maybe even solo. But, not only that! We also have content from all-over Tamriel that we're pulling in here. So, you're going to find some quest bosses, you're going to find some group bosses, you're going to find some delve and public dungeon spaces, so...

Rich: Yea, and the intent with this is it's a little more systemic.

Finn: For sure

Rich: And a little bit....There's a little more meat on the bones, so to speak. With a lot of players we get feedback where they love the dungeons, but they're kind of one and done. They go in there and do the content, they get the drops they want, and then there done with it. Where with this, because it's systemically endless, and there's tons of stuff in here to kinda earn, and get, and learn, it's a little bit meatier. So, there's more content for players for players to kinda dig into.

Finn: And to touch on duo a little bit, we've had that request since Maelstrom really came out.

Rich: Yeah, it's definitely not a foreign concept.

Finn: Yeah, to do duo content. So, when Maelstrom first came out, it was originally planned to

Rich: Fun Fact!

Finn: Fun Fact! Yeah, when Maelstrom originally came out, it was designed to be solo, duo, or 4-players. And as development went on, as happens, we had to make sure the features fit kinda of where they needed to be. So, this is the first time we've actually been able to actually explore duo content.

Personally, this does not say to me that it's exclusively balanced around duo. It tells me that it's meant to be done solo, duo, or with a companion. And that they were excited to be able to offer duo content, because it's something they've wanted to do for a long time.

edit:

As I was watching this for the time, I came across another section that speaks to solo vs duo. I had trouble seeing who was speaking when it went to picture and picture.

Around 1 hour and 19 minutes in....

Gina: .......So, I want to answer a couple comment questions that keep popping up in chat.

Finn and Rich: okay

Gina: So there is no difficulty....there is no normal or vet.

Finn????: correct

Gina: It's just you can do solo or you can do duo.

Rich???: The difficult comes from how deep you get.

Gina: How far you get.

Rich????: Yeah. It gets harder. It gets a lot harder. HAHA

Finn: To clarify a little bit, there is no difference between solo or duo difficulty. So, if Rich was in here solo, the monsters would have the same amount of health. The same amount of damage.

Rich?? Yup

Finn??? SO you really have to build your character a specific way in order to kinda tackle solo. You have a little more flexibility with duo. But, for those people with 1 friend, this is the perfect piece of content.

Rich?? WOWWWWW! Why did you look at Gina when you said that?

Gina: HAHAHAHA. We looked at each other. HAHAHA

Rich: Wow!!

So, it's designed to be doable solo, but they expect people to have to build for it to really succeed using a solo playstyle. If you want more flexibility in your build choices, grab a friend.

Grade A cherry pickin there ma friend. You missed bolding this

Finn: And to touch on duo a little bit, we've had that request since Maelstrom really came out.

Rich: Yeah, it's definitely not a foreign concept.

Finn: Yeah, to do duo content. So, when Maelstrom first came out, it was originally planned to

Rich: Fun Fact!

Finn: Fun Fact! Yeah, when Maelstrom originally came out, it was designed to be solo, duo, or 4-players. And as development went on, as happens, we had to make sure the features fit kinda of where they needed to be. So, this is the first time we've actually been able to actually explore duo content.

This is whats being refered to as well as another segment previewing necrom. But sure. Conviently pick out what you want.

Additionally they straight up say if you choose to go solo you will have to build for that . Something ive heard players complain endlessly that they shouldnt have to do. On top of that they say the difficulty is no different for solo or team so obviously they will base it around the easier option so its not brain dead easy. Thats common sense. As i previously pointed out you can do near any dungeon in the game solo but its a heck of a lot harder because it was designed for 4 people. Id encourage you to as watch the interview between skinny cheeks and matt. He actually said they designed it to be challenging.

Something else further highlighting this is that the major achievements like getting to arc 4, defeating th'roat in her final form ect- they dont say you have to complete it solo to get them.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

You missed bolding this

I did not. Bolding is typically done when you want to highlight a word, phrase, sentence, etc from a whole. It's not usually done for a large amount of the conversation.

Furthermore, I think separating it from the context of them saying that it was designed for both, gives the impression that it's duo alone. Rather than the idea of duo being something they wanted to touch on for a little bit. I believe they were saying at that part that they had wanted to create duo content since Maelstrom Arena, not that Endless Archive is balanced exclusively around duos.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

This is whats being refered to as well as another segment previewing necrom. But sure. Conviently pick out what you want

I made it very easy for everyone to come to their own conclusion by basically putting the whole question.

Additionally they straight up say if you choose to go solo you will have to build for that

Yes, I quoted that part as well. The arena is built for both solo and duo, but solo will need to build for it. While duo will have more flexibility.

Sarannah · November 2023

After playing inside the EA much more, I can now reliably get to arc 4 solo+companion. Have also done two duo runs, which was fun. Ofcourse I had to do much tweaking to my builds. One of my builds was full dps, which is now a dps/tank hybrid. Another character of mine was full tank, and I gave him some dps to become more hybrid... though he is still short on that dps front, so he will require more tweaking. (he couldn't do some of the dps mechanics, like killing the lightning rods in time)

After learning the mechanics of the Tho'at fights, they are much much easier. Though still a bit too chaotic for my tastes, but oh well.

Maugogh is still a lost thread 90% of the time, and this is with quite some defensive abilities. He is just much too strong.

Have also been able to unlock each of the transformations, which were awesome to play with! This gave me an idea for a new upgrade/memento: After unlocking all three transformation achievements you have a 5% chance for each transformation verse to spawn at each pick, even without having chosen the three corresponding visions. (Maybe a price of one million EA currency for this upgrade, so it becomes a longterm goal for players.)

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

…And the marauders are overtuned, especially their light attacks. And which add pulls they spawn with have a huge impact on success. I'd like to see them come in place of wave 2, and for their light attacks damage to be nerfed.

Yes. Marauders replacing wave 2 should definitely be the play, and limiting the amount of shock tornados that one of them can spawn to like 2-3 at a time. That tornado Marauder is literally a guaranteed group wipe on later Arcs.

Braffin · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I will say that I don't think it's at all the case that trial bosses in EA are completely different. I had strong hints of what to do from having done the trials (mostly only on normal but I do have some vet experience). Their moves are reminiscent of their proper encounters, such that a person with experience in that content will have a leg up on those that don't. As it should be.

You are right of course.

Thing is, some people try to create a story, that these bosses are highly different from all other bosses simply because they also appear in trials (or DLC dungeons) for the sake of eliminating them from the pool completely and put in animated dps-dummies instead, so they may ignore mechanics as usual.

Now I'm not at all against adjustments to streamline the experience. Same as you, I'm quite sure, that marauders will recieve some nerfs and think that's appropriate.

I also support some changes to Tho'at in Arc 1, like @SilverBride suggested. Simply because her reasoning is understandable for me and nothing is destroyed if zos lessens the amount of AoE in Arc 1.

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

Jaraal · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

During the fight with Tho'at, sometimes tentacles cover the blobs and then you can't find them easily, and you die to the attacks. I think the tentacles should knock back the blobs if they spawn on them, so they can be visible to the player.

This is definitely a problem. I've died a few times to untargetable blobs that were completely hidden inside the tentacles.

@ZOS_Kevin , could you please pass this information along to your team? It seems a bit unfair to have to lose to circumstances beyond our control.

Kiyakotari · November 2023

My frustration with EA isn't necessarily the difficulty, but rather the fact that you get kicked back to the beginning at only 3 deaths. This means that you can only die twice, and a third death is a loss. For a non-leaderboard/casual run, that's mad.

Lugaldu · November 2023

Do companions count as a duo in the rating? I mean, it's ridiculous, they're dead in two seconds when fighting Tho'at (and many other bosses as well).

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Do companions count as a duo in the rating? I mean, it's ridiculous, they're dead in two seconds when fighting Tho'at (and many other bosses as well).

Yes. They do. And I agree. They should make it a separate leaderboard, or treat it as no different than a pet and count it as solo.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

I haven't really made up my mind in that regard of boss pool, as I'm waiting to see non-bugged leaderboards. If just getting to Arc 2 is really good enough to get you on the leaderboard, then maybe they're right. When I think about it, a lot of the playerbase avoids dlc dungeons and trials because the real versions are too much for them. It's possible these EA versions are as well.

If I had my way....
I want most of the playerbase to be able to do Arc 1.

I think that good elite players (like the type that can do vma/vvh comfortably) should be able to beat Arc 4.

And I think Arc 5+ is probably something that only duos can do comfortably, although especially talented solo players may be able to as well.

I also want a way to reach later arcs faster so I don't have to care about it. I'd be fine if it meant you don't get leaderboard or quest credit. It's just going to get really old, really fast to want to wait hours to get to the best parts.

Galeriano · November 2023

For anyone having troubles with finishing arc 1-4. Just create a tanky setup. Seriously that's really all there is to it. Build up around 40k HP and 30k+ resistances and You will not die to almost anything. Enchantments, status effects and offensive visions will carry the dmg. You don't need extra damage to complete endless archive You need survivability. It's basically what everyone who reached arc 7+ is doing already. It's also really usefull to buy upgrade that empower visions and optionally one that empowers versses. Your defense should come mainly from Your setup and offense from visions and verses.

It may sound harsh but if someone is incapable of finishing even arc 1 the fault for that is completly on that person's side mainly because that person didn't create a suitable setup and is lacking skill to compensate for that.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

For anyone having troubles with finishing arc 1-4. Just create a tanky setup. Seriously that's really all there is to it. Build up around 40k HP and 30k+ resistances and You will not die to almost anything. Enchantments, status effects and offensive visions will carry the dmg. You don't need extra damage to complete endless archive You need survivability. It's basically what everyone who reached arc 7+ is doing already. It's also really usefull to buy upgrade that empower visions and optionally one that empowers versses. Your defense should come mainly from Your setup and offense from visions and verses.

It may sound harsh but if someone is incapable of finishing even arc 1 the fault for that is completly on that person's side mainly because that person didn't create a suitable setup and is lacking skill to compensate for that.

I can't speak to other classes, but I managed fine on my sorc (yes I used Oakensoul) with a damage shield running a lot. I also swapped out my Slimecraw monster helm for Mighty Chudan. The only thing that melted me too fast to reasonably react is the marauder. I don't think a single add that can spawn as early as arc 2 should be so extreme that it requires a tank. I feel like it would be unbearably slow if I had shed more damage, TBH. And honestly, being able to target prioritize adds I knew to be especially dangerous and get rid of them before they caused a ton of problems was important.

Braffin · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

I haven't really made up my mind in that regard of boss pool, as I'm waiting to see non-bugged leaderboards. If just getting to Arc 2 is really good enough to get you on the leaderboard, then maybe they're right. When I think about it, a lot of the playerbase avoids dlc dungeons and trials because the real versions are too much for them. It's possible these EA versions are as well.

If I had my way....
I want most of the playerbase to be able to do Arc 1.

I think that good elite players (like the type that can do vma/vvh comfortably) should be able to beat Arc 4.

And I think Arc 5+ is probably something that only duos can do comfortably, although especially talented solo players may be able to as well.

I also want a way to reach later arcs faster so I don't have to care about it. I'd be fine if it meant you don't get leaderboard or quest credit. It's just going to get really old, really fast to want to wait hours to get to the best parts.

I disagree regarding the leaderboards.

To qualiy for them as a duo on pc eu you already have to beat 7.4.3 currently up from 5.3.1 a bit more than a week ago.

Solo leaderboards are entirely another topic, as using a companion disqualifies you from participation (I'd also suggest a separate leaderboard for runs with companions btw.), thus strongly distorting the metrics.

Additionally, while EA is definitely made for either solo or duo experience, the stats of the enemies in there stay the same, regardless of mode. In fact it's the very same EA, only the respective leaderboards are changing. It's expectable and only logical, that duos do far better in there.

I agree tho, that most of the playerbase should be able to do Arc 1. But not without challenge. A beginner should get the very same experience at Arc 1 as more seasoned players get out of higher Arcs.

The interview you paraphrased also shows clearly, that zos is expecting, that interested participants are willing to adjust their builds and tactics to succeed, while most of the complaints around here come from players, which aren't interested in that type of playstyle (That's not an assumption. They said so for themselves several times and refused any help offered.).

Once again, I'm not arguing against adjustments of mechanics, if that is necessary to improve the experience of the average playerbase. It's not necessary to outright delete any bosses from Arc 1 tho, as there are far more subtle ways to achieve this goal.

And of course I entirely oppose the idea of splitting EA into two separate modes difficulty-wise. That's simply nonsensical.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

I haven't really made up my mind in that regard of boss pool, as I'm waiting to see non-bugged leaderboards. If just getting to Arc 2 is really good enough to get you on the leaderboard, then maybe they're right. When I think about it, a lot of the playerbase avoids dlc dungeons and trials because the real versions are too much for them. It's possible these EA versions are as well.

If I had my way....
I want most of the playerbase to be able to do Arc 1.

I think that good elite players (like the type that can do vma/vvh comfortably) should be able to beat Arc 4.

And I think Arc 5+ is probably something that only duos can do comfortably, although especially talented solo players may be able to as well.

I also want a way to reach later arcs faster so I don't have to care about it. I'd be fine if it meant you don't get leaderboard or quest credit. It's just going to get really old, really fast to want to wait hours to get to the best parts.

I disagree regarding the leaderboards.

To qualiy for them as a duo on pc eu you already have to beat 7.4.3 currently up from 5.3.1 a bit more than a week ago.

Solo leaderboards are entirely another topic, as using a companion disqualifies you from participation (I'd also suggest a separate leaderboard for runs with companions btw.), thus strongly distorting the metrics.

Additionally, while EA is definitely made for either solo or duo experience, the stats of the enemies in there stay the same, regardless of mode. In fact it's the very same EA, only the respective leaderboards are changing. It's expectable and only logical, that duos do far better in there.

I agree tho, that most of the playerbase should be able to do Arc 1. But not without challenge. A beginner should get the very same experience at Arc 1 as more seasoned players get out of higher Arcs.

The interview you paraphrased also shows clearly, that zos is expecting, that interested participants are willing to adjust their builds and tactics to succeed, while most of the complaints around here come from players, which aren't interested in that type of playstyle (That's not an assumption. They said so for themselves several times and refused any help offered.).

Once again, I'm not arguing against adjustments of mechanics, if that is necessary to improve the experience of the average playerbase. It's not necessary to outright delete any bosses from Arc 1 tho, as there are far more subtle ways to achieve this goal.

And of course I entirely oppose the idea of splitting EA into two separate modes difficulty-wise. That's simply nonsensical.

If you reached Arc 2, that means you only cleared Arc 1, right? So something like 2 1 1 making the leaderboard would indicate only a leaderboard level player can beat Arc 1 solo.

I would expect duos to reach further than a solo can, rather it being impossible for a solo even at stage 1. That doesn't sound like solo content.

edit: But I need time and the leaderboards to be fixed before I can use them to have a good idea of where the playerbase is at.