Dear devs: do you realise that your content beta testers are not you average player? I beg you read

Tandor · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Is it really though? Every expansion adds a faceroll-easy questline. Every dungeon DLC still has normal modes which can usually be soloed in a half decent build, or easily completed with a group. None of the normal versions of the DLC content is particularly hard to clear so long as you're breaking 20k dps, which can be accomplished with an hour of practice tops.

Yes, all of the dlc dungeons are difficult on vet - but that's the point of vet. They can all still be completed by "casuals" on normal. EA is the same - the first Arc is on-par with normal base-game content. Far from catering to "elites".

Unfortunately, that point is rather defeated by the name of the content. "Endless" implies rather more than "the first Arc".

Yes, but there is a daily quest associated with the Endless Archive that gives it an ending.

Please tell me we're not supposed to judge the merit of the replacement content for a quarter's DLC purely according to whether or not we can do a daily quest

!

Ingenon · November 2023

Lykeion wrote: »

The difficulty of arc 1 has been downgraded during the PTS, and for simple gear collection, farm arc 1 is more than enough. You can easily pass arc 1 with any mainstream build, like oakensorc and hold left click. You don't need to be an "above average" player to do that

I have tried several oakensoul builds (sorcerer, templar, warden), and my experience while completing Arc 1 is that the Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer is the weakest choice. The Arc 1 Cycle 4 boss killed my sorcerer pets multiple times. The Arc 1 Tho’ at Replicanum killed my sorcerer pets multiple times.

Please do not tell folks to use Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer in Endless Archives. Unless they like having to resummon their pets multiple times, even in Arc 1. However, the Oakensoul one bar Templar does ok.

Turtle_Bot · November 2023

Did EA solo the other day (figured I might as well see what it is about and start slowly farming the sorc set in case the devs finally have a change of heart regarding sorc and actually fix the useless [snip] set they gave it) The sorc set is just not worth my time pushing the content as hard and as far as I can take it due to how extremely bad the set is.

I'm definitely not an "elite" player by any means, but I hold my own (vet dungeons, vet arenas, have done vet trials in the past, solo/small scale pvp etc) and finishing arc 1 was very, very easy, even on my off meta sorc build. I think I had 1 jump scare on tho'at (didn't die, but got low), but that was not from the content being too hard though, that was my own lack of attention and complete carelessness.

The daily quest finished after that, so I didn't proceed further for the reasons stated above.

EA seems perfectly fine as it is.
- It has arc 1 (daily quest) for those who are average or below.
- It has duo and companion options for those players too if they want to attempt further arcs or need the additional help.
- It also has solo and increasing difficulty content for those who want to seriously push themselves to see how far they can get.

Elsonso · November 2023

Ingenon wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

The difficulty of arc 1 has been downgraded during the PTS, and for simple gear collection, farm arc 1 is more than enough. You can easily pass arc 1 with any mainstream build, like oakensorc and hold left click. You don't need to be an "above average" player to do that

I have tried several oakensoul builds (sorcerer, templar, warden), and my experience while completing Arc 1 is that the Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer is the weakest choice. The Arc 1 Cycle 4 boss killed my sorcerer pets multiple times. The Arc 1 Tho’ at Replicanum killed my sorcerer pets multiple times.

Please do not tell folks to use Oakensoul one bar Sorcerer in Endless Archives. Unless they like having to resummon their pets multiple times, even in Arc 1. However, the Oakensoul one bar Templar does ok.

I have run Endless Archive solo with an Oakensoul Sorcerer and what I found was that healing was a challenge. If the build depends on a pet heal, that is probably not going to help, as dead pets do no healing. I am not sure that a healing companion would fare any better, but I don't have a healer for a companion, so I can't say. I can say that when the going got rough, the companion was dead.

My Oakensoul Templar is on XBox, and I have not yet tried Endless Archive there.

I also have an Oakensoul Warden and that was a much better experience than the Sorcerer.

Edit: I have no builds for Endless Archive. My Oakensoul builds have been used to solo a few of the 4-player normal dungeons, but Endless Archive requires a different build.

Castagere · November 2023

Endless archive is called an Arena by xynode...a streamer

This right here was the problem. ZOS like they always do market something like this for all players. Saying you could complete it with a companion. The casual/average players are getting slaughtered in this thing.

Tannus15 · November 2023

You know, this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

Read the PTS before you start in on it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644544/pts-patch-notes-v9-2-3

etc etc

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.
all the class sets except the sorc class set were adjusted and improved after PTS feedback.

Those of us who bother with PTS get literally nothing for out efforts to try and make the game better for you. ZoS has no incentive or reward for time and effort going in to test new content.

You know what, if you want to start making assumptions about the PTS how about you even look at the PTS patch notes or pay any attention at all to the 6 weeks of PTS cycle instead of waiting for it to hit live and then complaining.

Tandor · November 2023

Tannus15 wrote: »

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.

That wasn't to make it easier for "average" players, it was to enable "above-average" players to reach their challenging content quicker.

Braffin · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.

That wasn't to make it easier for "average" players, it was to enable "above-average" players to reach their challenging content quicker.

Arc 1 was made easier for the average playerbase, so more people can finish it and the respective daily quest.

That is stated clearly in the PTS patch notes. Constant reframing of the term "intended audience" won't change that. The original context of this term makes very clear what is meant:

Adjusted the difficulty scaling in Endless Archive. Arc 1 is now less difficult while further Arcs increase in difficulty more quickly. This affects Stage monsters, Cycle bosses and Tho’at Replicanum.
Developer Comment:
The goal of this change is to address two pieces of feedback: Arc 1 was too difficult for the intended audience, and it took too long for experienced players to reach difficult content. Now, you’ll have an easier time with Arc 1 but the monsters ramp in difficulty much sooner.

Of course all players will profit from a reduction of trashmobs before engaging the next boss.

Really, I still don't see what exactly is the purpose of the baseless quibbling against EA. I understand, if specific arguments regarding difficulty are made (mechanics of some bosses etc.).

But a generalized "EA is too difficult." And "EA is bad." without any further substantial information about specifics comes a bit like some players are just salty, that they didn't get their usual story DLC.

Sorry to say that, but so is the very nature of a multiplayer game catering to various different interests. Ask PvPers for example. They can tell you how it feels, if your playstyle is neglected for years.

Yes, EA isn't made for questing, EA isn't made for chilling through it while earning maximum rewards. It's made for people, which are looking for a challenge, regardless of skill.

If you don't like it, don't play it. Nobody is forcing you.

But nobody playing a MMO should be entitled enough to expect every single update brings content mainly for the own interests. Because that will end in disappointment for sure.

So yeah, maybe it's time for some people to overthink if their attitude (as well as their claims they would represent a silent "majority of the average playerbase") is reasonable at all.

Tannus15 · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.

That wasn't to make it easier for "average" players, it was to enable "above-average" players to reach their challenging content quicker.

This is from the official PTS feedback thread for endless archive

from day one people were saying it was going to be too challenging for a lot of the player base and it should be toned down.

Streamers like skinny and justcallmemichael were calling for nerfs to arc 1 because they were concerned that average players were going to struggle with the daily.

Anyone who paid attention to the official feedback thread in the PTS forum would have seen regular comments along those lines.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

@Recent I agree with you. I generally play these type of games to tank and spank enemies with my companion being the tank as block and the other queues I can't follow. I don't play to partake of card games, nor do I play this game to play "dress up the house".

As my "tank" is useless to the boss even at arc 1, and I die to any edited trial boss, I can only say it was not designed for players like me. At this point I feel they should just have called it 3BA (3 Boss Arena) because 35 times out of 40 that is exactly what it was.

Casual players, this name varies as to who you ask.
So to elaborate, to me, it is a sub par normal player that has no bloody idea what I parse not do I care what my DPS is. I have time, but not patience, I play the game to kill a few npc's and a few hours too. I care little for complex mechanics, but I know well enough to try not standing in red. I DO NOT want a "learning experience" and if/when I die that is all I will do that day, so I log out. I can do some world bosses, all normal overland, with the dlc overland being a crap shoot. Some normal dungeons are fine too, but anything that can one-shot or is impossible to solo I skip. Craglorn, arenas , trials, bastion nymics, and quite the few other mechanic heavy and/or group content I skip too.

That said I can get as high as the third boss without many problems and have even completed arc 1, 5 times with lucky visions/verses, but like I said when the PTS was live it will suit only a sliver of players. Those that WANT or CRAVE challenge with get bored VERY quickly in the first arcs, and those like myself will tire of dying and just go back to overland. As they don't want to put in a switch it is yet another thing I will skip.

I know that many players love the content, but to me it is just time consuming and tedious. I am glad those players got something they enjoy, but sadly I'm not likely to be a player if they ever throw players like me a bone.

Edited: got em all I think

Tatdad · November 2023

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

You and the rest of the elites (smaller %) of players can hard disagree all you want but that won’t stop me from unsubbing.

I resubbed to the game literally because of endless archive, got short into it and one of the bosses literally one shots me .

Unsubbing. I could literally care less about anything else anyone has to say about it.

Elsonso · November 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Is it really though? Every expansion adds a faceroll-easy questline. Every dungeon DLC still has normal modes which can usually be soloed in a half decent build, or easily completed with a group. None of the normal versions of the DLC content is particularly hard to clear so long as you're breaking 20k dps, which can be accomplished with an hour of practice tops.

All of the zone content is "faceroll-easy" for the end game players and probably the bulk of the middle range of players, as well. The further away from that a player is from the top, the harder the content will get. Near as I can tell... the philosophy is that story content isn't supposed to be hard, it is supposed to tell a story. The hard content is elsewhere in the game, by design.

However, I am talking bias here. Zone content is often released with arena or trial content. When they don't release a new zone, we get DLC dungeons, and the dungeons have Normal through Veteran Hard Mode. This is all biased towards the mid to end game players and it is a steady stream of content. There is a very clear bias towards bulking up the end game content here, even if they do release zone and story content during the year.

As for solo normal DLC dungeons with a half decent build being that easy... no. I would be *super* surprised if ZOS metrics held that statement up as being factual. My gut feeling is that the average player isn't that good. Can they be that good? Maybe. Some of them. Not all of them.

(fixed broken quote)

Lags · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

Hard disagree with the OP.

Almost all of the content in the game caters to average or newer players without requiring elite fighting skills. And that's ok! While I enjoy end game I like relaxing content as well. Plus, most content geared towards above average players has a version of it which can be enjoyed by average players. This, therefore, is the opposite of the OP's assessment. I will not list everything but here are some examples.

Content with low barrier to entry (can easily solo):
Questing, stories, and overland mobs/areas (the bulk of the game)

Delves

Antiquities

Tales of Tribute

Normal Solo Arenas (needs at least a little skill/experience to complete, though)

Housing

Crafting and Fishing

Thieves Guild Heists and Dark Brotherhood Sacraments, stealing from and murdering NPCs in general

Unlocking Companions and leveling their skills, rapport, and stories

Most event content (Jester's Festival, New Life Festival, etc.)

Content with low barrier to entry (may need a group but everyone can be average in the group):
World Bosses

Incursions (Anchors and such)

Normal dungeons

Normal trials

Normal group arenas

All PvP but especially Cyrodiil (You can wear very basic gear to join a zone group and capture things, help with siege, etc.)

Older vet dungeons

Specialized "group" content like the Crow or Bastion Nymic

Content requiring "better than average" skills for all player participants to consistently succeed:
Vet DLC Dungeons

Vet Trials

Vet Group Arenas and Solo Arenas

... and now Endless Archive, which, let's all remember, replaced a vet DLC dungeon release, and so logically should fall into this category

Some aspects of PvP

Then there is content that can be leveraged regardless of which category you are in.... like seeking achievements or enjoying different classes, being a vampire or werewolf, unlocking the Psjiic Order skills, etc. Yes, some of those vampire skills may be leveraged by score pushers but you can bop around doing the story content as a vampire, too!

If you combine the first two lists together it's blatantly obvious that the game is not catered towards above average players in any way. And given where the majority of the development focus is, I continue to be glad that ESO still does provide "end game" content. I was pleasantly surprised with the Endless Archive, which I expected to be more boring because I thought it might be geared towards players who really need Companions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but personally wouldn't present a challenge for me or hold my interest for very long as "endless" content.

Well said.

I dont know where these complaints are coming from lately. Is it endless archive? I dont know, but its unreal to me. 95% of this game is casual friendly. Especially now with arcanist and oakensoul. I saw some guy complaining the other day that the game was hard and he didnt want to use beam on his arcanist. Its like, so you want the game to be completely brainless and dont want to use the tools they give you that will help you get through harder stuff faster? I dont get it.

Some people want incentive to get better, some people want to be challenged. Some people want to be able to say, wow maybe one day ill be able to do that. This is the problem with aiming an mmo at mostly solo casual players in a revolving door. You will never satisfy them, and the players that actually make an mmo what it is, players who are dedicated and put in time to become pillars of the community in one way or another, and do things for the community, and bring the community together, or players that want to stay for a long time, will cease to exist. As we have seen happen.

There is no big mmo that i know of where you can do everything simply. Where everything is super easy and there is no challenge. I have played retail/classic wow, osrs, albion, bdo, gw2, and more. I have never seen it. It would not be healthy for an mmo to operate like that, and i think the more solo/casual friendly eso becomes the more damage it does the community and game. Eso has always been a very solo/casual/beginner friendly mmo, but over the last few years they have just taken a hard turn in that direction.

and ive said it a million times but ill say it again here, there is a lack of incentive and a lack of reward at every level of the game that causes people to think this way. When the game is rewarding, and you incentivize people to improve, to want to get to the next step to get things and be rewarded, then things are better for everyone. There should be good rewards for fishing, questing, exploring, and there should be good rewards for harder things like godslayer, emperor, flawless conqueror, vet dlc dungeon achievements, etc. Rewards suck all around, especially at the easier end, and if they changed that for everyone things would only improve. But they refuse.

Amottica · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

What i see consistently from players who have a tough time in arc 1 is that they do not build for the content. You cant go in for solo play and expect to clear with your glass cannon dungeon build. You dont have supports. You are tank, dps, and healer. You must build for that to be successful. You can choose one heavy set and one damage set for example. Slot heals, slots shields, a breach and slot an aoe attack. You will be fine. My first attempt at EA i was in a glass cannon build as well just to test it out and see. It was quite challenging and im a high level player. I swapped to a solo build and it was a breeze. I wouldn't expect it to be a brainless run for a new player with a decent setup but it will still be a pretty easy clear. Do yourself a favor and think about what you would need if you were attempting to solo a dungeon. Understand that solo is essentially meant to be hard difficulty relative to the content just like soloing a dungeon. Take a friend if you don't feel the need for that challange.

The overwhelming majority of content is designed to be causual. Think of the main story, is the final boss difficult in an way? Are any of the stories for chapters? Truly, think about it. Thats most of the content. The vast majority of it is quests, delves, and overland which is ridiculously easy for folks at an average level. Base game dolmens i could solo at level 6 when i was brand new to the game having never played an mmo in my life. People seem to forget that. Above average players to good get dlc dungeons, trials, and arenas. End game gets hardmode dlc dungeons, and trials. Thats about it.

These are good points.

Most important is that a regular build people use for their normal interests is not likely to work in content designed for solo or duo players unless it is absurdly easy. I recall vMA and having to adjust my build for survival instead of focusing on pure damage. The same goes for EA since two people have to handle being able to survive and do damage.

The game was designed for this and it is great we have such content.

Vynera · November 2023

Okay, what is the "average" player? I rly want to understand why so many players having trouble in there, especially on the first arc.

I went in with an arcanist, deadly set, ansuul (can be replaced with any other medium set, it doesnt matter since its just 7% more damage), pale order ring and one piece of trainee heavy + pen mundus.
On the whole first arc including bosses:

I did not use break free, dodge or light attack weaving.
I did not interrupt any enemy channeling.
I ignored all addons telling me to dodge and took all hits on purpose, i did not break free when mobs knocked me back instead i waited for the stand up animation.
I did not move out of any red aoe, except at one boss that had multiple stacking aoes, and even then i stayed in there for like 5 seconds.
In 90% of the fights i did not move at all, just stand there press beam and turn from mob to mob.
Did not pay attention to verses, just picked always the left one.

My whole rotation was: 3x tentacle, ulti, beam on bosses. In trash fights just beam, nothing else.
Before starting the fight i prebuffed with 3 skills on the backbar, did not refresh them during the fight.

So all i had to do was basically press 2 buttons and at one boss fight I had to move my character a step backwards outside an aoe.
The last boss for the daily, just beam and walk backwards, stop damage during shield mechanic and keep walking backwards while beaming.

The whole arc 1 took me 13 minutes, can be faster if you pay attention to verses, visions, duo, and if you use more than 1-2 skills.

Soarora · November 2023

Tatdad wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

You and the rest of the elites (smaller %) of players can hard disagree all you want but that won’t stop me from unsubbing.

I resubbed to the game literally because of endless archive, got short into it and one of the bosses literally one shots me .

Unsubbing. I could literally care less about anything else anyone has to say about it.

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing. As said by others, a solo build is recommended. Those have more health and resistances than pure DPS builds. I've actually been told by a guildmate something along the lines of "build like a casual who doesn't know any better", which spoke to my experience as when I was a casual I wore livewire on a DPS...
The health and resistances thing isn't even really a problem until arc 3 though. If you died to a 1-shot (particularly Tho'at, the crystal sword person) it is probably because you did not roll or block a heavy attack, which the need to block a heavy attack is taught in the tutorial of the game. If it was not that, then it was probably a mechanic thing. Someone somewhere in the forums has said that a non-leaderboard mode with infinite threads to learn mechanics, or at least the ability to continue on a boss past 3 threads to learn, would be a good idea. I agree with that. That said, you also have to not quit immediately after dying once.
I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach casuals how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill, continuing the cycle of casuals not knowing or wanting to deal with mechanics.

Tornaad · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

Hard disagree with the OP.

Almost all of the content in the game caters to average or newer players without requiring elite fighting skills. And that's ok! While I enjoy end game I like relaxing content as well. Plus, most content geared towards above average players has a version of it which can be enjoyed by average players. This, therefore, is the opposite of the OP's assessment. I will not list everything but here are some examples.

Content with low barrier to entry (can easily solo):
Questing, stories, and overland mobs/areas (the bulk of the game)

Delves

Antiquities

Tales of Tribute

Normal Solo Arenas (needs at least a little skill/experience to complete, though)

Housing

Crafting and Fishing

Thieves Guild Heists and Dark Brotherhood Sacraments, stealing from and murdering NPCs in general

Unlocking Companions and leveling their skills, rapport, and stories

Most event content (Jester's Festival, New Life Festival, etc.)

Content with low barrier to entry (may need a group but everyone can be average in the group):
World Bosses

Incursions (Anchors and such)

Normal dungeons

Normal trials

Normal group arenas

All PvP but especially Cyrodiil (You can wear very basic gear to join a zone group and capture things, help with siege, etc.)

Older vet dungeons

Specialized "group" content like the Crow or Bastion Nymic

Content requiring "better than average" skills for all player participants to consistently succeed:
Vet DLC Dungeons

Vet Trials

Vet Group Arenas and Solo Arenas

... and now Endless Archive, which, let's all remember, replaced a vet DLC dungeon release, and so logically should fall into this category

Some aspects of PvP

Then there is content that can be leveraged regardless of which category you are in.... like seeking achievements or enjoying different classes, being a vampire or werewolf, unlocking the Psjiic Order skills, etc. Yes, some of those vampire skills may be leveraged by score pushers but you can bop around doing the story content as a vampire, too!

If you combine the first two lists together it's blatantly obvious that the game is not catered towards above average players in any way. And given where the majority of the development focus is, I continue to be glad that ESO still does provide "end game" content. I was pleasantly surprised with the Endless Archive, which I expected to be more boring because I thought it might be geared towards players who really need Companions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but personally wouldn't present a challenge for me or hold my interest for very long as "endless" content.

To emphasize your point about the ease of some gameplay, specifically overland content, one of the first times I was trying to introduce my wife to ESO, she ended up in a combat facing a rock spamming "random buttons" and between that and the companion I had at the time, the mob got killed. She felt so proud and has since said "I'm great at combat, you just press random buttons!"

TaSheen · November 2023

Mostly people should think about their tolerances in a game. I'm so casual no one would ever try to get me to do anything harder than a delve - and that's only when I can get tickets for it. I don't care about "harder content" at all. I play to have fun, and that's the be all and end all of why I sub three annual accounts in this game.

My tolerance for "harder content" is zero. I'm old, my reflexes are crap - and regardless that I spend hours every day in game, I have no interest at all in stuff that's harder than delves. I have fun my way, and I know my own limits.

I highly recommend that to others - figure out what you tolerate, where your llimits are - and once you've done that, don't **** and moan about stuff that's outside those lines. Now.... that does leave a major void when something like EA with new currency etc makes people get angsty over it. Every game is going to have those choke points....

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

Tannus15 wrote: »

You know, this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

Read the PTS before you start in on it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644544/pts-patch-notes-v9-2-3

etc etc

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.
all the class sets except the sorc class set were adjusted and improved after PTS feedback.

Those of us who bother with PTS get literally nothing for out efforts to try and make the game better for you. ZoS has no incentive or reward for time and effort going in to test new content.

You know what, if you want to start making assumptions about the PTS how about you even look at the PTS patch notes or pay any attention at all to the 6 weeks of PTS cycle instead of waiting for it to hit live and then complaining.

Um, trash mobs aren't the problem. Removing them makes it shorter, doesn't make it easier...

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You know, this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

Read the PTS before you start in on it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644544/pts-patch-notes-v9-2-3

etc etc

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.
all the class sets except the sorc class set were adjusted and improved after PTS feedback.

Those of us who bother with PTS get literally nothing for out efforts to try and make the game better for you. ZoS has no incentive or reward for time and effort going in to test new content.

You know what, if you want to start making assumptions about the PTS how about you even look at the PTS patch notes or pay any attention at all to the 6 weeks of PTS cycle instead of waiting for it to hit live and then complaining.

Um, trash mobs aren't the problem. Removing them makes it shorter, doesn't make it easier...

Dude. Two separate sentences. Having one trash fight removed was ONE of the things that was altered. Not the only one jeeze

Grizzbeorn · November 2023

Tatdad wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

You and the rest of the elites (smaller %) of players can hard disagree all you want but that won’t stop me from unsubbing.

I resubbed to the game literally because of endless archive, got short into it and one of the bosses literally one shots me .

Unsubbing. I could literally care less about anything else anyone has to say about it.

HAHAHAHAHA.
I am not an elite. I am average. I don't do 12-man trials, have yet to try one of the solo arenas (Vateshran, Maelstrom); haven't yet been successful in any DLC dungeon beyond one or two mini-bosses into one...
Totally Average.

I just don't agree that content, including EA, is in need of nerfing. It doesn't need it.
(EA was already nerfed during PTS, specifically to make the first Arc easier for average players.)

What needs to happen is people (including me) need to adapt and grow as they play the game.
If you want to do more difficult content than you can currently do, learn what needs to be done and practice.

It should be natural to [want to] improve as one plays a game; not to remain stagnant and insist the devs instead knock the difficulty down to your level.

(clarification: I was laughing at the notion that I am an elite player.)

Tandor · November 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You know, this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

Read the PTS before you start in on it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644544/pts-patch-notes-v9-2-3

etc etc

We went on the PTS, we raised the issue that we felt "average" players would struggle and we got it made easier. we had an entire trash stage removed.
all the class sets except the sorc class set were adjusted and improved after PTS feedback.

Those of us who bother with PTS get literally nothing for out efforts to try and make the game better for you. ZoS has no incentive or reward for time and effort going in to test new content.

You know what, if you want to start making assumptions about the PTS how about you even look at the PTS patch notes or pay any attention at all to the 6 weeks of PTS cycle instead of waiting for it to hit live and then complaining.

Um, trash mobs aren't the problem. Removing them makes it shorter, doesn't make it easier...

That was the sole point I was making earlier. If, as claimed in the PTS Patch Notes, other changes have been made to make Arc 1 easier then I didn't notice those changes when I tested EA after that patch.

I happily accept that EA is not for me, but I do think it's a missed opportunity as it could so easily have been structured so as truly to be for everyone. I do think the marketing was badly handled in that from its very first announcement as an "Endless Dungeon" it was misrepresented.

Ph1p · November 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Um, trash mobs aren't the problem. Removing them makes it shorter, doesn't make it easier...

This is from the PTS week 2 patch notes:

Bobargus · November 2023

All contents in ESO should have difficulty options for casual/beginner and hardcore/veteran players alike.

Ph1p · November 2023

Personally, I belong to the group that thinks the overall difficulty in EA is fine, but to play devil's advocate, I would still consider the following:

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.
People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.
There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.
If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

So let ZOS analyze their EA data. If it indeed shows that too many players hit a wall with a specific boss or Tho'at in arc 1, that lots of people try multiple times and don't get anywhere, then by all means tune arc 1 further. Alternatively, a training room where you can practice with the bosses you already encountered, maybe even adjust them up 1-2 arcs in difficulty, wouldn't hurt either.

colossalvoids · November 2023

Bobargus wrote: »

All contents in ESO should have difficulty options for casual/beginner and hardcore/veteran players alike.

Absolutely agree with this, hence "veteran overland" thread exists and why same vets asked for a nerfed first arc experience on PTS as all content have normal / veteran switch baked in so it's kinda "normal" mode of EA.

Elsonso · November 2023

Soarora wrote: »

This is not the first time I have seen a complaint on the forums that a 1-shot has occurred in EA. The thing is, avoiding 1-shots isn't an "elite"-only thing.

It is an "expert player" thing.

Well... they could be a "lucky player". That is better than an expert, but not as reliable.

Soarora wrote: »

I think this kind of response isn't as much indictive of EA being too hard but a continuation of the conversation that ZOS simply does not teach [players] how to deal with mechanics until they get thrown into vet dungeons, where then people get mad about the lack of skill

I was hoping Endless Archive was going to be a bridge spanning the gap between the different skill levels of players that could be used to grow players into the harder content. Endless Archive does not feel like it will fill that role.

Ph1p wrote: »

Some bosses are significantly stronger than the others in the same selection pool, especially if you don't know their mechanics because you don't do trials or don't have a specific DLC.

People have compared arc 1 to normal dungeons, but dungeon enemies have less health and you fight them as a group of four. In EA, you suddenly need to be a mix of tank, healer, and DD, which can be an entirely new experience.

There are one-shots even in early EA, telegraphed as heavy attacks. In most lower difficulty content, this can be blocked and the tutorial even emphasizes how it staggers enemies. In EA, you often really need to dodge at the right moment.

If you are new to this kind of mechanics, you need some practice to get the timing right, e.g., roll-dodge as Tho'at jumps up for the heavy attack. But unlike in other content, you don't get unlimited tries to practice. I'm not advocating for more threads, but I'm sure getting reset to the start creates frustration (and forum complaints).

My personal feeling is that Arc 1 bosses should be limited to the pool of base game normal dungeon bosses, or general equivalent. Bosses with one-shot attacks or special knowledge mechanics should be excluded from Arc 1, or those attacks and mechanics should not appear until later Arcs.

The special mechanics practice problem is a real problem, since the bosses are random. Not only is there no opportunity to practice in the run, the next few runs might not have that boss. It could be a while before they get another chance to practice against it. Without studying a guide, like what Xynode puts out, someone with more knowledge to guide them, or training against the boss in the dungeon or trial they come from, it is going to be harder to get face time with the boss to learn special mechanics.

Of course, this opens up a new cottage industry where expert players do carry runs, or training runs, through Endless Archive. Duo mode ends up not just playing with another player, but playing with a player more familiar with the bosses.

Firstmep · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Xbox/NA here, so I've only had a day to give EA a whirl, but I do have some early thoughts.

1.) Marauder Gothmau is HIGHLY over-tuned, especially in the early arcs (3-5), and since we built for straight damage in those arcs, we both pretty much got insta-killed.

2.) On our second run we had just finished the second wave of enemies and then no more enemies spawned. Then out of nowhere it said that we had last a thread, and it restarted the stage. Neither one of us died, so this was a fun bug.

3.) The Visions/Verses are definitely going to be the usual RNG that we've come to expect from ESO, and will make or break your run.

I like EA more than I thought that I would, but also don't see myself wanting to spend 3-4 hours at a time running it. It would be nice to have a save feature for people who don't care about leaderboards.

Vision/Verse rng is pretty brutal. Focused Efforts blows everything out of the water by a mile.
Dont know who came up with the numbers but 3% vs 500% damage increase has to be an oversight.

Tandor · November 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

All contents in ESO should have difficulty options for casual/beginner and hardcore/veteran players alike.

Absolutely agree with this, hence "veteran overland" thread exists and why same vets asked for a nerfed first arc experience on PTS as all content have normal / veteran switch baked in so it's kinda "normal" mode of EA.

The problem with just nerfing Arc 1 is that it would just lock more casual players out of EA altogether. I preferred the alternative suggestion on PTS of two difficulty options, which would allow casual players to progress further and get more out of EA while allowing the veteran players to enjoy challenging content from the beginning of a harder Arc 1. It would fit the normal/veteran options that the other arenas and dungeons in the game have.

That was my view on PTS, and I think it's even more relevant now that the veteran players are getting frustrated at testing themselves against their personal limit which might be between say Arc 5 and Arc 7 or higher, only to have do a complete re-run for a couple of hours through the earlier content in order to try and push their limit further each time. I'm all in favour of them meeting that challenge earlier, but it would be a shame if that was at the expense of others being unable to test themselves at lower levels and thereby improve their game.

Braffin · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Bobargus wrote: »

All contents in ESO should have difficulty options for casual/beginner and hardcore/veteran players alike.

Absolutely agree with this, hence "veteran overland" thread exists and why same vets asked for a nerfed first arc experience on PTS as all content have normal / veteran switch baked in so it's kinda "normal" mode of EA.

The problem with just nerfing Arc 1 is that it would just lock more casual players out of EA altogether. I preferred the alternative suggestion on PTS of two difficulty options, which would allow casual players to progress further and get more out of EA while allowing the veteran players to enjoy challenging content from the beginning of a harder Arc 1. It would fit the normal/veteran options that the other arenas and dungeons in the game have.

That was my view on PTS, and I think it's even more relevant now that the veteran players are getting frustrated at testing themselves against their personal limit which might be between say Arc 5 and Arc 7 or higher, only to have do a complete re-run for a couple of hours through the earlier content in order to try and push their limit further each time. I'm all in favour of them meeting that challenge earlier, but it would be a shame if that was at the expense of others being unable to test themselves at lower levels and thereby improve their game.

Splitting difficulties in EA makes absolutely no sense, as the difficulty comes from delving deeper into EA. To be truly endless (which means nothing more than that isn't any other end but failing the challenge or retreating from the fight), it's necessary to stick with one version of EA. Otherwise normal mode would either inevitably outgrow veteran mode in difficulty or the scaling would've to be next to nonexistent, thus deleting the whole purpose of progression and challenge EA is made for.