Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

Treeshka · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

I have made my suggestion on this post about Arc one before, which was basically only putting base game bosses for stage bosses or easier ones out of all bosses.

After playing hours and hours of Endless Archive both solo and duo with different classes. I can easily say that one vision out of others stands out too much compared to other visions.

Focused Efforts vision grants tons of damage compared to other visions, and if you are lucky you can get this vision three or four times before Arc four. With right build you can breeze through Arcs until seventh or eighth with this. In one of my runs got this vision five times and my burning was ticking almost 60K for each enemy. No other vision can buff you like this.

There is some visions that gives you %3 percent direct damage or %3 more area damage. Those are just nothing compared to extra %500 percent status effect damage per stack. Five stacks will net you %2500 more status effect damage. In my opinion visions need some balancing. I would not nerf Focused Efforts in this case but would buff others significantly. Damage reduction visions are also a bit lacking, except those %10 percent unique reductions, those seems fine.

In the end hardest achievement is killing Arc 4 Tho'at which is their last evolution, which makes me think that this content is balanced around this Arc's difficulty. Getting there in my opinion is a good challenge and requires someone to actually kite and do damage, avoid area damages, dodge heavies and many other small stuff during combat. Especially if you are solo. It also requires a unique build that has proper resistances, health values, recoveries and damage.

yeah i would like to agree that some of the visions/verses seem unbalanced compared to others in terms of power

i really like most of the set visions (and their accompanied verses), though ferocious support and fiery support are way better than crystalline support (crystalline support i feel is kind of underpowered because it does no dmg compared to the other 2 set vision supports)

i wish there was a way to "banish" a vision or verse from appearing like some other rogue likes have, because frankly i never want to see the +xp, or +gold visions (or in my case +weapon poison effectiveness as i never use those), those to me are frankly a wasted slot of a roll

the worst vision roll choice i could imagine for me would be +xp, +gold, and poison effectiveness, because literally all useless lol

im hoping they can add more upgrades to be able to do something like banish 1 verse or banish 1 vision choice, as that is also part of the gameplay with this style

We need some sort of reroll for visions or trade one vision for other vision. Only once per run or something similar. Like who would choose more gold or experience for their serious run? I personally choose those gold and experience ones just to get the achievements.

Braffin · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

Let's say I'd consider your changes to EA, how would you adjust the rewards tied to this content?

I'll give you an example: The class sets could be made curated in a way like overland sets are already working: Delve-lvl bosses give belts as baseline, while you'd have to defeat The Serpent or any other "trial boss" at least at Arc 3 (which is now called Arc 1) to get your hands on the weapons.

And yes, I'd also put the daily there.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Treeshka wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

I have made my suggestion on this post about Arc one before, which was basically only putting base game bosses for stage bosses or easier ones out of all bosses.

After playing hours and hours of Endless Archive both solo and duo with different classes. I can easily say that one vision out of others stands out too much compared to other visions.

Focused Efforts vision grants tons of damage compared to other visions, and if you are lucky you can get this vision three or four times before Arc four. With right build you can breeze through Arcs until seventh or eighth with this. In one of my runs got this vision five times and my burning was ticking almost 60K for each enemy. No other vision can buff you like this.

There is some visions that gives you %3 percent direct damage or %3 more area damage. Those are just nothing compared to extra %500 percent status effect damage per stack. Five stacks will net you %2500 more status effect damage. In my opinion visions need some balancing. I would not nerf Focused Efforts in this case but would buff others significantly. Damage reduction visions are also a bit lacking, except those %10 percent unique reductions, those seems fine.

In the end hardest achievement is killing Arc 4 Tho'at which is their last evolution, which makes me think that this content is balanced around this Arc's difficulty. Getting there in my opinion is a good challenge and requires someone to actually kite and do damage, avoid area damages, dodge heavies and many other small stuff during combat. Especially if you are solo. It also requires a unique build that has proper resistances, health values, recoveries and damage.

yeah i would like to agree that some of the visions/verses seem unbalanced compared to others in terms of power

i really like most of the set visions (and their accompanied verses), though ferocious support and fiery support are way better than crystalline support (crystalline support i feel is kind of underpowered because it does no dmg compared to the other 2 set vision supports)

i wish there was a way to "banish" a vision or verse from appearing like some other rogue likes have, because frankly i never want to see the +xp, or +gold visions (or in my case +weapon poison effectiveness as i never use those), those to me are frankly a wasted slot of a roll

the worst vision roll choice i could imagine for me would be +xp, +gold, and poison effectiveness, because literally all useless lol

im hoping they can add more upgrades to be able to do something like banish 1 verse or banish 1 vision choice, as that is also part of the gameplay with this style

We need some sort of reroll for visions or trade one vision for other vision. Only once per run or something similar. Like who would choose more gold or experience for their serious run? I personally choose those gold and experience ones just to get the achievements.

yeah a reroll option would also be ideal as well

rerolls + banish mechanics are usually included in these types of games, so i figure its something they could add in here (i know this is their first introduction of this, but i really enjoy the mode and hope they can expand on it a bit )

i also only chose the gold, xp, poison, and pet ones once just to get the achievements (the pet one is admittedly good if you are running a pet sorc, but i dont use those either lol)

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

Let's say I'd consider your changes to EA, how would you adjust the rewards tied to this content?

I'll give you an example: The class sets could be made curated in a way like overland sets are already working: Delve-lvl bosses give belts as baseline, while you'd have to defeat The Serpent or any other "trial boss" at least at Arc 3 (which is now called Arc 1) to get your hands on the weapons.

And yes, I'd also put the daily there.

Sets and overall rewards, I had not calculated as I was just offering a suggestion as the arcs. Rewards I would leave to Zos as I don't usually go out of my way in search of those anyways.

I'm sure they could come up with something, that will need fixing though.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

personally to me there is no real difference between a delve and public dungeon (one just has slightly larger groups of enemies)

a bit of background from me is that whenever i make a new character nowadays (which isnt too often), i never craft gear for them, i immediately port into public dungeons at lvl 3 (i skip the tutorial too) and run around with no gear until i get drops in the public dungeon, i basically port to public dungeons for the skyshard and group boss at a minimum and repeat this until about level 10

at which point i go to imperial city and farm from lvl 10 until 50

the most challenging thing i did on a low lvl character was solo kill a banner boss in IC on my lvl 14 arcanist using a mishmash of generic non-set gear, some of it a bit underleveled

i know a lot of this is because ive been playing the game since launch and have experienced virtually all content the game has to offer (at least cleared everything on vet), and i still have the reflexes to deal with the faster combat

im not going to say that everyone will be able to clear every bit of content, at least you gave it a good try

in terms of difficulty the trash mob stages between the boss ones i didnt feel like they were any more difficult than public dungeon mobs (they were about the same size and strength), some of the bosses were more on par with normal group dungeon, or normal solo arena (maelstrom or vateshran, which if you could clear normal vateshran you should have a pretty good chance of clearing arc 1 unless you ran into a boss you never fought before)

the cycle 4 bosses in arc 1 could probably be adjusted a bit more to ensure you would not get any dragons or trial bosses, as those are the more difficult encounters (the trial ones have significantly more mechanics than most of the boss fights ive run into)

asking for arc 1 to be made even easier is in my opinion asking for all solo content (such as maelstrom or vateshran) to be made even easier, as to me its roughly equivalent content

joergino · November 2023

Ehntu wrote: »

I consider myself a casual player, the most difficult thing I've done in the game is Vet MA no death, and I usually bench around 100k on a dummy.

To me this reads like the exact opposite of "casual".Vet MA? Never ever. Normal took me four and a half hours years ago and I made sure never to even go anywhere near that place again.
100k? Also, pretty sure I'll never even get anywhere close to that.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

I mean endless archive is in the name, its intended that way. Id honestly be gob smacked if they added an option for you to skip arcs. It pretty much goes against the entire premise. They certainly wouldnt award you missed points for skipping an arc. Im more on board with a maelstrom situation where you dont lose your progress for just signing off but just arent eligible for leaderboard. Personally even as a vet player i dont have 10hrs at a time to sink into it. I got a full time job and responsibilities. Id venture to guess that the majority would share that opinion. Id add a few threads too. 3 is just not enough for the target audience of arc 1. I mean if they got for argument sake 5 at arc 1, 4 at arc 2, and then 3 there after even I think that might help a bit. You definitely bang your head at a boss more then 3 times if you havent seen it before. I think arc one bosses should probably be a bit more curated since a lot of casual and overland players have never set foot in a trial and cant understand the complexity of some of the mechanics.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

asking for arc 1 to be made even easier is in my opinion asking for all solo content (such as maelstrom or vateshran) to be made even easier, as to me its roughly equivalent content

Most of your post just referred to how you do things and I won't comment on it.

This paragraph is my only real focus in that my suggestion made arc 1 in EA irrelevant as in if you never want to see it, you NEVER have to. the other arenas have no bearing whatsoever on the topic either as we are talking about EA here.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

joergino wrote: »

Ehntu wrote: »

I consider myself a casual player, the most difficult thing I've done in the game is Vet MA no death, and I usually bench around 100k on a dummy.

To me this reads like the exact opposite of "casual".Vet MA? Never ever. Normal took me four and a half hours years ago and I made sure never to even go anywhere near that place again.
100k? Also, pretty sure I'll never even get anywhere close to that.

i would agree with this lol

i expect most "casual" players to be hitting <25k dps at best

they did rebalance maelstrom quite some years ago, i do remember normal maelstrom being quite a bit challenging, but its way easier nowadays (most of the normal mobs only have like 13-20k hp, which is actually even less than overland), the only 2 stages which still have deadly mechanics are the ice rink and the poison flowers

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

They can. Just not all of them in their very first try. That's what challenge and progression are about.

Seems we have different ideas about how people can be motivated to learn and improve. In my personal experience, incentives/rewards work well with most people, as well as giving them a sense of achievement (exactly this is the reason I would appreciate a really easy, beginner-level arc in the archive); while expectations that seem hard may motivate some, but also cause frustration in many others (and not only the lazy). If you teach someone to play the piano, you start with easy folk songs or something like that, not with a sonata by Beethoven or Chopin. That said, I'm not an expert in teaching and the motivation of students; there was a bit during my studies, but, knowing my temper, I deliberately chose not to become a teacher, so it were only some basic lessons.

I figured I would dip my toe into this discussion and see where things were going...

The quote above is why I earlier said you should always start at the lowest common denominator, that being the delve at arc 1. Once defeated you go to arc 2 which could be level public dungeon, then normal base game dungeon for maybe a few more arcs etc etc..

I realize this would be brain dead easy to 90% of the population, but it could solve the "endless", problem. Using a smaller increase in hit points, damage done, etc. for the mobs/bosses between arcs would also increase this.

HOWEVER: A suggestions to make it not so gruesome to the more competitive players could be the aforementioned skipping arcs with a twist. If they steadfast refuse to add a vet/norm switch. They could calculate a base number to the leaderboard for each early arc you want to skip without any modifiers added, say 10k for arc 1, 20k for arc 2 etc. Then if you wanted to start at say arc 3 your calculated base score on the leaderboards would be 30k and would increase from there as you did more arcs. You could be given the option upon entering EA, at whatever arc you wanted to start at, but that would be for you to determine. Reset to arc 1 would always be possible by re-entering EA.

This suggestion would also take much of the time sink out of EA, in that if you only wanted to do say arc 10, you could. Your leaderboard score could be a base of 550k (example) and at the end of that arc you would get normal scoring.

Just something I though up, anyways, it may sound a bit convoluted, but if they won't add the switch, it might work.

I mean endless archive is in the name, its intended that way. Id honestly be gob smacked if they added an option for you to skip arcs. It pretty much goes against the entire premise. They certainly wouldnt award you missed points for skipping an arc. Im more on board with a maelstrom situation where you dont lose your progress for just signing off but just arent eligible for leaderboard. Personally even as a vet player i dont have 10hrs at a time to sink into it. I got a full time job and responsibilities. Id venture to guess that the majority would share that opinion. Id add a few threads too. 3 is just not enough for the target audience of arc 1. I mean if they got for argument sake 5 at arc 1, 4 at arc 2, and then 3 there after even I think that might help a bit. You definitely bang your head at a boss more then 3 times if you havent seen it before. I think arc one bosses should probably be a bit more curated since a lot of casual and overland players have never set foot in a trial and cant understand the complexity of some of the mechanics.

Well the PERFECT solution would just be the norm/vet switch like in dungeons, but as they are not even considering that, I was just trying to come up with an idea. I agree it is not perfect, but it is what it is.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Ehntu wrote: »

I consider myself a casual player, the most difficult thing I've done in the game is Vet MA no death, and I usually bench around 100k on a dummy. However, I haven't done many trials and I also play on about 280 ping on average, so mechanics are a bit of a pain point for me.

The biggest observation I can make is that the whole thing REALLY is designed for two people. The companions and pets eat *** on every mechanic - this is a really big problem at bosses especially on Tho. It's frustrating for a scrub like me when there are like 4 mechanics going on and I can't rely on someone else to interrupt or tank a mechanic. The side games and fights are also a little frustrating for the same reasons. It feels like there should be a bonus advantage if you're going in solo because you're just doing everything... solo. The lack of normal to vet is a strange omission to me also. I know you could just say "Just group with someone" but why did they bother letting you solo it if it's clearly not meant to be soloed?

On average I make it to Arc 3 but usually die to either a boss I haven't seen before or a Marauder. Trash mobs are no problem in general but the Marauder difficulty is dependant on what arena you get - some of the rooms and tiny and cramped and basically you're dead in this case. One of the Marauders (fire) I just can't kill, his light attacks do 12k when I'm blocking. I feel like if you encounter this guy in Arc 2 either his health or DPS needs to be sharppy reduced. The others are psychotic but okay. The other cause of death is the boss fights but that comes down to me not understanding the mechanics. Disappointing but if I was playing ~SERIOUSLY~ I would look up a guide.

Tho is confusing and frustrating for me because the visuals are hard to look at and there is just lots going on for one casual person to digest

Overall I'd be interested in these changes:
-A bonus for solo players, or a split between nm and vet.
-Reduced damage or HP on marauders in Act 2
-Some mechanics not damaging pets/companions
-The marauders should spawn as a random Wave 4 within a cycle after all the other ads are dead.
-3 Cycles down from 5 Cycles within an Arc. 5 takes foreverrrrrrrr
-Difficulty spiking after Arc 4 but what I think I'm really asking is a tweak to soloing marauders and Tho.

I'll play it maybe once or twice a week at this rate.

While you may not play often (you didnt mention weekly average or anything) and may indeed just play on the weekend for a few hrs you are pretty obviously naturally talented as a player. Thats kind of an anomaly and not what most would consider the average for someone who plays a couple hrs a week. I don't know many weekend warriors who have no deathed Vma or hit 100k. I have no doubt that if you so decided to do vet trials you would have no problem. I know plenty of folks regularly running vet trials that are struggling to hit 100k. To give you an idea the benchmark for most hm progs that ive seen is around 85k with a few noted exceptions. Generally speaking when folks talk about causal players, thats not what they have in mind. You are kind of the exception.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

asking for arc 1 to be made even easier is in my opinion asking for all solo content (such as maelstrom or vateshran) to be made even easier, as to me its roughly equivalent content

Most of your post just referred to how you do things and I won't comment on it.

This paragraph is my only real focus in that my suggestion made arc 1 in EA irrelevant as in if you never want to see it, you NEVER have to. the other arenas have no bearing whatsoever on the topic either as we are talking about EA here.

i dont mind starting from arc 1, thats the point of the mode you start easy and then build up your buffs to be able to sustain and handle the difficulty increases later

its pretty apples to apples comparison, soloing arc 1 in EA and soloing an arena such as maelstrom or vateshran as the format and difficulty is about on par (the only difference between EA and the solo arenas is the arenas have fixed spawns and mechanics, and the EA has random enemy groups and bosses)

the main difference is the maelstrom is easier to EA in the fact the difficulty does not ramp up as quickly, you have infinite lives, and has very fixed enemy spawns and bosses per arena

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

asking for arc 1 to be made even easier is in my opinion asking for all solo content (such as maelstrom or vateshran) to be made even easier, as to me its roughly equivalent content

Most of your post just referred to how you do things and I won't comment on it.

This paragraph is my only real focus in that my suggestion made arc 1 in EA irrelevant as in if you never want to see it, you NEVER have to. the other arenas have no bearing whatsoever on the topic either as we are talking about EA here.

i dont mind starting from arc 1, thats the point of the mode you start easy and then build up your buffs to be able to sustain and handle the difficulty increases later...SNIP

Additive buffs were something else, I didn't add into my post as I figured it getting was confusing enough for some; also I didn't want to write a novel. That said, they could offer a cumulative buff along with the arc you decided to start at equivalent to the base ones offered. Either chosen by the player upon entering or predetermined.

Like I said it is just an idea and not totally fleshed out, but if you ironed out the wrinkles it might be an option.

Edit: keyboard was at fault I swear!

Tandor · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a bit of background from me is that whenever i make a new character nowadays (which isnt too often), i never craft gear for them, i immediately port into public dungeons at lvl 3 (i skip the tutorial too) and run around with no gear until i get drops in the public dungeon, i basically port to public dungeons for the skyshard and group boss at a minimum and repeat this until about level 10

at which point i go to imperial city and farm from lvl 10 until 50

the most challenging thing i did on a low lvl character was solo kill a banner boss in IC on my lvl 14 arcanist using a mishmash of generic non-set gear, some of it a bit underleveled

i know a lot of this is because ive been playing the game since launch and have experienced virtually all content the game has to offer (at least cleared everything on vet), and i still have the reflexes to deal with the faster combat

How many CPs do you activate on those characters?

valenwood_vegan · November 2023

So I had another idea today - the platform for the boss fights could be larger in arc 1, providing more room to maneuver and learn mechs / making the dragon fights a little more forgiving / etc.

Of course this might not be as easy to implement as it sounds and could cause a cascade of problems that would require the bosses to be rebalanced for arc 1 anyway, but just another thought about how the EA could be made a little more forgiving and promote learning in arc 1 without outright nerfing everything into the ground or removing certain bosses.

Syldras · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Well, coincidentally I for myself play piano (not even near a a top-notch level, but still) since I was 10 years old. And I can assure you, that I never hadn't had the chance to play something to my liking, if I hadn't faced the challenges on my way. You don't start playing piano with easy folk songs tho, but some theory and a whole lot of finger exercises and Etudes to figure out how to control your hands completely seperate from each other while nonetheless coordinating them as a whole. That process takes several years and can be quite demotivating in between. Some nice melodies on the way help with this of course, here I agree with you. Most of the motivation comes from oneself tho and from the goal you want to reach. For example hearing someone else playing a beautiful Sonata or Nocturno is motivating. Hearing myself becoming better with each try is motivating too.

Seems to vary from teacher to teacher. I had a friend at elementary school who had piano lessons (another one learned to play the violin, while I myself focused on other arts back then; oh, wait, there were mandatory flute lessons at school, but those were awful

) and it was a more "playful" approach. Of course there was also theory and dexterity training, but they started quite soon to play whole (easy) folk tunes and children's songs, most probably to give the child a feeling of accomplishment for motivation. I've seen this concept - motivation by success - in many fields within the last 10 or 15 years or so, by the way. Heck, they even let children just starting school copy whole (short) words nowadays before they even have a real grasp of spelling rules, just so they get the feeling that they can accomplish writing something. Not sure if it's just based on a modern sentiments (times and concepts change, if I think of methods that were common 30 years ago or at the times of my parents - things are really different today) or if it's really based on scientific findings that this method works best.

Braffin wrote: »

If you would demand a training mode with altered rules (at least saving and unlimited lives should apply) and reasonable nerfed rewards, we wouldn't disagree I think.

I'd be totally fine with that.

Braffin wrote: »

But I'm quite sure, that nerfing only the content while leaving tied-in rewards untouched would do no good. I mean, why should I bother with learning Beethoven's Pathetique (that beast took me almost a year till I learned to play it with enjoyment) if easy folk songs are all I need.

Because of your intrinsic wish for progress. Some people have it, others not so much. People who want to face a challenge and improve will try to get ever further through the archive, others might just leave after arc 1 if this gives them enough of the loot they want. I guess it's already like this now, no matter the difficulty, and wouldn't get worse if the first arc would be made easier.

Syldras · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Wait are you suggesting that EA should have an arc at a difficulty that a lvl 4 newbie should be able to clear? Consider this: you don't get random dungeon finder until lvl 10 and the 2 dungeons you have access to with 3 other ppl in your party are fg1 and sc1. The easiest non-overland content in the game requires lvl 10. At that experience lvl a true newbie wouldnt be able to solo a dolmen. You dont have a full skill bar even.

If skippable (considered something like a training arc for newbie players to have a look at the concept), why not?

Tannus15 · November 2023

imo the only change that's really needed is that instead of kicking you from the boss / stage when you lose your last thread it should post your score and then allow your to revive as many times as you like and when you finally use the portal, THEN it kicks you.

this would allow people to learn mechanics and improve without running it all over again and just dying whenever boss X spawns because they don't know how to defeat it.

the problem with EA is lack of learning opportunities with only 3 deaths total

Joy_Division · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

As a player who has spent many many hours in EA solo and in duo with my wife, making it to 7-4-2, I want to share my thoughts.

1. ARC 2 red guy with 4 arms mini boss needs to be brought inline with the other atro mini bosses that can show up. (No seriously he is overtuned compared to the others. Yes I can beat him solo but the fact remains he is over performing)

2. ARC 4 Tho'at, when the first boss goes into shield mode and spawns the golden missiles that get shot at you, needs to be slightly down tuned in damage.

3. Dragon pedestal bosses need a MUCH bigger platform, seriously when 99% of the platform currently goes red....sigh

All in all I absolutely LOVE this arena. Its fun, its challenging and the rotation of getting different rewards from the vendor's rotation make it appealable. I would love to see the trial bosses that show up drop trial gear (non perfected). My biggest complaint is the random losing of buffs on your player and that the run can take a VERY long time. We were in there for almost 6 hours reaching 7-4-2.

All in all, great job ZOS! but please fix bugs asap

about 2) The shield mirrors your damage, the orbs spawn in response to the damage that hits her shield. If you don't attack her, she'll lower the shield again and no orbs will spawn at all.

Thank you for this!

TheImperfect · November 2023

I thought the dragon bosses needed a bigger area when first doing them especially after being yeeted over a few times. After doing some more and getting used to it, it's very possible and makes it more of a challenge so in my opinion should be left alone as it is.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

asking for arc 1 to be made even easier is in my opinion asking for all solo content (such as maelstrom or vateshran) to be made even easier, as to me its roughly equivalent content

Most of your post just referred to how you do things and I won't comment on it.

This paragraph is my only real focus in that my suggestion made arc 1 in EA irrelevant as in if you never want to see it, you NEVER have to. the other arenas have no bearing whatsoever on the topic either as we are talking about EA here.

i dont mind starting from arc 1, thats the point of the mode you start easy and then build up your buffs to be able to sustain and handle the difficulty increases later...SNIP

Additive buffs were something else, I didn't add into my post as I figured it getting was confusing enough for some; also I didn't want to write a novel. That said, they could offer a cumulative buff along with the arc you decided to start at equivalent to the base ones offered. Either chosen by the player upon entering or predetermined.

Like I said it is just an idea and not totally fleshed out, but if you ironed out the wrinkles it might be an option.

Edit: keyboard was at fault I swear!

i believe that most of the people who actually just want to be challenged want to be able to start at the later arcs specifically to challenge themselves, which in some roguelike games is a possibility (some of them have a story to play through and upgrades can let you start at say floor 2 of 5 instead of 1 of 5), so i dont see starting at a later arc out of the realm of possibility

it wouldnt be too difficult to just disable leaderboard score for a run like that

i dont disagree that there could be potential upgrades done to the EA (such as options to reroll or banish verse/vision selections, which is another common feature in games that are similar to this)

a tip is that the verse selection really makes a good bit of difference depending on if you are going into a boss fight or a mob fight, so if your going into a boss fight and you need more survivability maybe try a defensive verse, if you think your surviving well enough then try an offense verse as those do add a significant amount of free dmg

for vision selections, its a little bit different if you were just trying to get through arc 1, most of the bonuses dont add up enough to be hugely gamechanging with a few exceptions

the "set" visions are all generally decent bonuses (reduced frost dmg taken is good against tho'at) and fiery support and ferocious support can add a lot of extra dmg, or the one which increases chance to apply status effects and status effect dmg in combination with something like elemental susceptibility

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a bit of background from me is that whenever i make a new character nowadays (which isnt too often), i never craft gear for them, i immediately port into public dungeons at lvl 3 (i skip the tutorial too) and run around with no gear until i get drops in the public dungeon, i basically port to public dungeons for the skyshard and group boss at a minimum and repeat this until about level 10

at which point i go to imperial city and farm from lvl 10 until 50

the most challenging thing i did on a low lvl character was solo kill a banner boss in IC on my lvl 14 arcanist using a mishmash of generic non-set gear, some of it a bit underleveled

i know a lot of this is because ive been playing the game since launch and have experienced virtually all content the game has to offer (at least cleared everything on vet), and i still have the reflexes to deal with the faster combat

How many CPs do you activate on those characters?

one of the things i do when i make a new toon before i actually go adventuring is various unlocks (guild skill lines: mages, fighters, undaunted, psijic (to unlock psijic portals), dark brotherhood (unlock blade of woe), thieves guild (unlock thieves troves), and bag upgrades

i dont do mount upgrades because i cant do them all at once, i dont do crafting certification because i dont like daily writs, and i level up my crafts by deconning junk i pick up

if i have the cp im going to use it, its part of making the character to me

even with that though it still takes skill to solo a boss like that, and knowledge of said bosses mechanics

daemondamian · November 2023

The Endless Archives make Bastion Nymic seem like a walk in the park lol - speaking in terms of doing it solo with a companion.

It does seem like the difficulty ramps up really high at the beginning of Arc 3 compared to the first two like going from Vet Fungal Grotto 1 to vet Scalecaller Peak or vet Fang Lair?

Also having to unequip and re-equip armor sets because the effects (say like Minor Force) randomly disappear for no reason is kind of annoying especially if you haven't realised you've lost the effects when a Marauder shows up.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Wait are you suggesting that EA should have an arc at a difficulty that a lvl 4 newbie should be able to clear? Consider this: you don't get random dungeon finder until lvl 10 and the 2 dungeons you have access to with 3 other ppl in your party are fg1 and sc1. The easiest non-overland content in the game requires lvl 10. At that experience lvl a true newbie wouldnt be able to solo a dolmen. You dont have a full skill bar even.

If skippable (considered something like a training arc for newbie players to have a look at the concept), why not?

I just dont think it makes any sense until level 10 when they have some skills to use. It wouldnt do them any favors. They wont even have a self heal. They wouldnt have a companion. Literally nothing. I didnt even figure out how to start the main quest til lvl 10. I had no idea how to use pots in combat even at lvl 4. There is a reason you cant use dingeon finder until 10. You cant manage anything sustained of any kind beyond a delve which are short in starter zones. A public dungeon is out of the question. I wandered into the forgotten crypts on my first baby toon and got mowed down almost instantly. I think you forget what it was like to be brand spankin new. I came out of skyrim, like many players did. I remember well. If anything i think they would just be overwhelmed.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

daemondamian wrote: »

The Endless Archives make Bastion Nymic seem like a walk in the park lol - speaking in terms of doing it solo with a companion.

It does seem like the difficulty ramps up really high at the beginning of Arc 3 compared to the first two like going from Vet Fungal Grotto 1 to vet Scalecaller Peak or vet Fang Lair?

Also having to unequip and re-equip armor sets because the effects (say like Minor Force) randomly disappear for no reason is kind of annoying especially if you haven't realised you've lost the effects when a Marauder shows up.

there is a known bug where sets stop working after you do one of the bonus stages which can transform you (the watcher one or the goat one)

daemondamian · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

The Endless Archives make Bastion Nymic seem like a walk in the park lol - speaking in terms of doing it solo with a companion.

It does seem like the difficulty ramps up really high at the beginning of Arc 3 compared to the first two like going from Vet Fungal Grotto 1 to vet Scalecaller Peak or vet Fang Lair?

Also having to unequip and re-equip armor sets because the effects (say like Minor Force) randomly disappear for no reason is kind of annoying especially if you haven't realised you've lost the effects when a Marauder shows up.

there is a known bug where sets stop working after you do one of the bonus stages which can transform you (the watcher one or the goat one)

Ahhh thankyou I will know now to look out for that happening then next time

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

daemondamian wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

The Endless Archives make Bastion Nymic seem like a walk in the park lol - speaking in terms of doing it solo with a companion.

It does seem like the difficulty ramps up really high at the beginning of Arc 3 compared to the first two like going from Vet Fungal Grotto 1 to vet Scalecaller Peak or vet Fang Lair?

Also having to unequip and re-equip armor sets because the effects (say like Minor Force) randomly disappear for no reason is kind of annoying especially if you haven't realised you've lost the effects when a Marauder shows up.

there is a known bug where sets stop working after you do one of the bonus stages which can transform you (the watcher one or the goat one)

Ahhh thankyou I will know now to look out for that happening then next time

the quick fix is to unequip and reequip a piece of gear

as a precaution i basically do that every time after one of those stages comes up before moving on to the next one

Dojohoda · November 2023

I finished the quest with a tanky Oaken-Sorc using a shield instead of a pet and with the necrom arcanist companion. The character is wearing the usual Sergeant's Mail. The second set didn't matter. It was Siroria and he had to roll out of the circle quite a bit during last two boss fights. I have not yet finished this quest on my nightblade. I will need to update its gear for this to something a bit more durable. Now that the event is over, maybe I can work on the gear.

The housing item for finishing the 1st arc is nice.

Tandor · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

a bit of background from me is that whenever i make a new character nowadays (which isnt too often), i never craft gear for them, i immediately port into public dungeons at lvl 3 (i skip the tutorial too) and run around with no gear until i get drops in the public dungeon, i basically port to public dungeons for the skyshard and group boss at a minimum and repeat this until about level 10

at which point i go to imperial city and farm from lvl 10 until 50

the most challenging thing i did on a low lvl character was solo kill a banner boss in IC on my lvl 14 arcanist using a mishmash of generic non-set gear, some of it a bit underleveled

i know a lot of this is because ive been playing the game since launch and have experienced virtually all content the game has to offer (at least cleared everything on vet), and i still have the reflexes to deal with the faster combat

How many CPs do you activate on those characters?

one of the things i do when i make a new toon before i actually go adventuring is various unlocks (guild skill lines: mages, fighters, undaunted, psijic (to unlock psijic portals), dark brotherhood (unlock blade of woe), thieves guild (unlock thieves troves), and bag upgrades

i dont do mount upgrades because i cant do them all at once, i dont do crafting certification because i dont like daily writs, and i level up my crafts by deconning junk i pick up

if i have the cp im going to use it, its part of making the character to me

even with that though it still takes skill to solo a boss like that, and knowledge of said bosses mechanics

I'm not raising the question of CPs in any critical way, I quite understand that if you have CPs you'll want to use them. I only asked the question (still unanswered) because when people talk about completing advanced content on naked new characters they always forget to mention the CPs

!

As for your last point, I couldn't agree more. When taking on advanced content with new characters it's easy to strip off the gear and leave the CPs disabled etc, but you can never strip away the skill, reflexes and knowledge that come with the player's previous experience.