Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Well, I'll put my popcorn aside now and concentrate on the archive, I guess...

That's a great idea. Good luck!

Syldras · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

I understand that you're curious for the numbers hiding behind release week. But nobody, and I'm not speaking about you specifically now, should refrain from trying out new content because of stats or, as somebody else in this thread mentioned, because somebody else told them not to try it. - That'd be simply ridiculous.

I agree with you here, no one should feel demotivated before even trying it. The reason I'd be interested in the stats is that I'd find it interesting to see how well people actually do, and how reasonably the difficulty is chosen.

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

About your personal experience: It's true, I don't remember seeing new player characters getting smashes in public dungeons despite spending quite some time in each of them that comes with a DLC simply to farm fragments and sell or gift them away. All new players characters I encounter simply don't die, because I help them and explain them how to handle the group event via chat. Maybe that's why.

If I see someone in trouble, I most often jump in. I've even played escort for lost newbies who were on their own a few times, leading them to every public dungeon boss, helping them to get their achievements complete. I do that if I have enough spare time. But sometimes I'm just on my way out because I have to quit the game, and, yeah, sorry, in that case I just rush through.

Paralyse · November 2023

One thing that I think people need to remember is that EA is in its first week.

There will be tuning passes and adjustments made by ZOS. I'm hopeful that some of the issues I've encountered (repeated deaths/despawns of sorc pets, insta-death from Marauders, buggy boss mechanics) are going to be fixed. I suspect Tho'at will be nerfed quite heavily at least for Arc 1 and probably Arc 2.

Gothmau is the one that is most obviously not working as intended and I hope that fixing him gets priority.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

If mechanics are all what's stopping you, you can learn those.
You can observe and adapt.

In a game mode where you drop out after you've died 3 times, which might happen really fast with some mechanics, before you've even really understood what the whole thing is about?

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

You can read a guide online.
You can watch a youtube video on the boss

In a game mode where you can't save and drop out if you're inactive for too long?

That's the problem I (and others) have mentioned in this thread a few times already. People might be totally willing to learn, but the way the archive is designed isn't exactly supporting that: You have time pressure, you can't save, you can only try a few limited times which might not be enough if it's a more complicated boss mechanic.

1) Yes, that's how rogue-like styled game modes work. You got a limited amount of chances. But fear not! You can jump straight back in after using the handy hourglass next to the entrance and reset the thing. You don't lose anything but progression. And progression is meaningless when the rewards aren't bound to it. They are bound to the currency that drops on Arc 1 just as much as it does on Arc 2. The side events that require absolutely no combat apart from heabutting a butcher as a goat give the same amout as putting Yolnakriin in his place.

2) FYI, because it seems you didn't notice yet - It takes a lot longer to disconnect due to inactivity in the endless archive than it does everywhere else in the game. I think only afk browsing the crown store protects you longer from disconnecting at this point. I can tell, because after one boss or another, I put water on the stove, got my laundry from the washing machine and put it up...all sorts of things, really. So, if I'd have to guess...you're at least safe for 10 minutes before you log out.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was even more, actually. But I'm not going to stand afk in the endless archive and record it to proof my point.

the currency does increase per arc (it gets noticeable in later arcs)

arc 1 base currency is 200 (400 for tho'at)
each subsequent arc adds +100 additional currency

it gets very noticeable when you have the eso+ 10% currency bonus too

on sunday i had an extremely good run and almost made it to arc 6, in arc 5 your getting like 660 currency per boss and completed bonus area if you have eso+ (that arc was very challenging though)

also normal afk timer is 15 mins before it kicks you (if you dont do something, if you just go move a little bit or hit a skill it resets that timer)

there are times ive remained in game and afk for almost an hour because i would just go and periodically move my character a little bit

Jaraal · November 2023

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

I think threads could be increased or eliminated.

You can earn a permanent fourth thread for your entire account by completing one of the side quests.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

It's not so bad that something has the requirement to improve ones skills...

The issue is the prevailing "Git Gud" attitude , as I said before MMO developer competition has never been stronger, some devs now have a zero tolerance for such behaviour , but here as a fairly new player I just feel like ZoS encourages it.

It's sad because I really love this game, but I have to be honest it makes me want to play less and less, and I just don't see it changing.

That's pretty much all I have to say about it.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the currency does increase per arc (it gets noticeable in later arcs)

arc 1 base currency is 200 (400 for tho'at)
each subsequent arc adds +100 additional currency

it gets very noticeable when you have the eso+ 10% currency bonus too

on sunday i had an extremely good run and almost made it to arc 6, in arc 5 your getting like 660 currency per boss and completed bonus area if you have eso+ (that arc was very challenging though)

also normal afk timer is 15 mins before it kicks you (if you dont do something, if you just go move a little bit or hit a skill it resets that timer)

there are times ive remained in game and afk for almost an hour because i would just go and periodically move my character a little bit

I didn't know that ESO plus adds to the archive points aswell. That feels a bit odd.
But thanks for chiming in, looks like I misremember the amount of currency I got later on.

15 minutes? That's more than I expected. Do you know if the afk timer behaves the same all over the game by any chance? Not to question your input, I'm simply wondering if there are sections of the game where zos would treat inactivity as less of an issue for some reason.

Braffin · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the currency does increase per arc (it gets noticeable in later arcs)

arc 1 base currency is 200 (400 for tho'at)
each subsequent arc adds +100 additional currency

it gets very noticeable when you have the eso+ 10% currency bonus too

on sunday i had an extremely good run and almost made it to arc 6, in arc 5 your getting like 660 currency per boss and completed bonus area if you have eso+ (that arc was very challenging though)

also normal afk timer is 15 mins before it kicks you (if you dont do something, if you just go move a little bit or hit a skill it resets that timer)

there are times ive remained in game and afk for almost an hour because i would just go and periodically move my character a little bit

I didn't know that ESO plus adds to the archive points aswell. That feels a bit odd.
But thanks for chiming in, looks like I misremember the amount of currency I got later on.

15 minutes? That's more than I expected. Do you know if the afk timer behaves the same all over the game by any chance? Not to question your input, I'm simply wondering if there are sections of the game where zos would treat inactivity as less of an issue for some reason.

15 minutes is the global log-out timer afaik.

That said, sometimes there are this odd moments, when the timer fails to execute to log-out and you stay logged in for literally hours (learned that after an unexpected nap). Doesn't happen often tho and I never tried anything regarding it on purpose.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

joergino wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

You're right. It's not difficult. It's utterly impossible.
Three times blown out off the arena by Yolnahkrin, yeah, that's fun.

There's a button named "block", you may want to check it out.

Not helpful. Some of us are older and/or have bad reflexes...

This is the equivalent of get gud.

This game has an action combat system that is reliant on active blocking, dodging, interrupting and so forth.
Also almost all attacks that need to be blocked have massive telegraphs, same for interruptable spells etc.
And even beyond that, there are ways to get around bad reflexes, for example ring of the pale order which allows to dps thru most mechanics without issue.

I am so tired of people complaining about difficulty, while simultaneously dissing every and all avenues that would make their experience easier.
Zos nerfing EA is not the only solution for those who struggle with this content.

Edit: When Vateshran Hollows came out I farmed it on vet with a heavy attack templar build, that used a total 3 offensive skills and held left click. It really, really doesn't get any easier than that.

Lets just take this in pieces shall we?

1) Yes it does have an active combat system with "prompts" to tell you when to block and interrupt. The problem being is my eyes are not what they used to be and if the enemy is too small or their is other things going on that require my attention on screen, I miss them. I must have missed the optional setting that allowed a BIG YELLOW screen aura that indicated to Block now, and the big RED ONE to indicate interrupt. And don't tell me the base game prompts are adequate. I would still miss them occasionally due to my reflexes, but at least I could not say I didn't notice them.

2) How exactly am I, and others like me "dissing" other avenues of making the game easier? See aforementioned idea on how the game could be actually made easier. If they made EA have JUST base game and early bosses (Arc 1 only), and adjust the final boss I would be more than happy to never post on this thread again.

3) Umm, good for you I guess, but we can not all be you. Personally I hate dying repeatedly just to maybe see some queue I missed, I would rather just skip the content. Hence not ever doing any vet, PvP, or trials.

Edit: clarity

1. If you are console than fair enough, on pc there are tons of addons to help with combat and they're very customizable.
2. Again, there are in game solutions to EA being to difficult, that do not require the devs nerfing the content. I brought up the Pale order ring, but I've seen a lot of people run defensive sets as well for example etc. What bothers is me, is that this isnt even a git gud moment, it's a, please try to put a bare minimal effort into solving your problem in game before calling the devs to make the content easier for you moment.
3. I also hate failing repeatedly, but my immediate reaction is not to call the higher ups to make my life easier, but rather I try to figure what went wrong, or read a guide to see if I missed something.

I want to make this abundantly clear, I do not care if new players get the rewards or whatever from the content, hell I'm okay if zos just put the items on everyone's banks.

What bothers me is the, frankly, and I'm sorry but it's true, lazy attitude so many people have towards anything resembling a challenge in this game.

And even if your eyesight is terrible, your reflexes non-existent, etc, I can guarantee you, that if you put just a tiniest bit of effort into changing your approach to the challenge, you would have an infinitely easier time.

1) Consoles don't even have access to EA so the only platform is the PC currently. There are no addons that do what I would like done, and unless you know someone that could make the one mentioned above and keep it updated I will continue to fail EA on some bosses. Any addons that might have helped some are no longer updated and again, unless you can point out one that does what I need I'll just skip EA completely.

As for the rest, I am sure by now the Devs have already decided on what they will do after all the feedback and metrics they use. For now I'll just leave this topic and the EA for when/if they decide to change it . Final note is as I already said many times in this thread I DON'T play this game for the challenge, but to relax!.

We are never going to agree here and as I have better things to do I'll just bow out.

I still would like to see an update than adds an endless public dungeon to the game, as those I am comfortable with, but I fear that will never happen when it seems many here just want the aforementioned challenge.

My dude they may have ideas on what to look at but outside of bugs they wont make hard and fast decisions until the entire breath of the player base has had an opportunity and they have good, solid data. Its been less then a week on one platform out of 3, they are nowhere near true metrics. By all means go ahead and leave feedback but dont expect intensive balancing until atleast a week or 2 after console release

YffresTrill · November 2023

I will certainly be in the minority here, but just to chime in:
Speaking as someone who can do this content in its current form, and has already acquired all they wanted from it (namely, the Tribute deck

) -- I believe Arc 1 should be completely trivial, so that anyone can complete it and get the rewards.

I believe gaming should be fun and we should all be allowed to have fun at our own preferred level of difficulty without feeling like we are missing out. If you are the sort of person who enjoys challenging themselves in difficult combat, then surely that is its own reward and if others receive a "participation prize," how does this harm your own experience?

Braffin · November 2023

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

I will certainly be in the minority here, but just to chime in:
Speaking as someone who can do this content in its current form, and has already acquired all they wanted from it (namely, the Tribute deck ) -- I believe Arc 1 should be completely trivial, so that anyone can complete it and get the rewards.

I believe gaming should be fun and we should all be allowed to have fun at our own preferred level of difficulty without feeling like we are missing out. If you are the sort of person who enjoys challenging themselves in difficult combat, then surely that is its own reward and if others receive a "participation prize," how does this harm your own experience?

It doesn't harm veterans at all, as we barely notice Arc 1 tbh.

It does harm all the players tho, which are looking for places to improve their skill but aren't up to veteran content yet.

And of course a game should be fun for the whole playerbase. EA isn't the whole game tho.

There are surely players around, which aren't enjoying Housing. Shall we delete housing due to that?

There are definitely people utterly despising ToT. Shall we comply to their demands, that no new rewards should be added to the card game?

Long story short: Why isn't it necessary (or even possible) to make all parts of this game appealing (that's something completely different from accessible) to literally everyone? Because this game is big enough to cater to various playstyles and interests. Not all of them have to accumulate in EA or any other content. EA is there for people interested in a challenge and does mainly an awesome job in it.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Im having a really hard time believing how many people on here want it nerfed before console can try it.

Heres the truth though: they won't.

Heres the why: they want and should get good statistics on completion rates across the whole player base on all platforms before they make adjustments. This is how it has prety much always been done after final adjustments in pts and release. New trials, news dungeons ect.

They won't because they can't. The 2 weeks period is for console review requirements. This has been stated before they couldn't even fix massive bugs much less just adjust content. I have often felt that those 2 weeks are like seeing the tsunami wave coming and not being able to move.

Xandreia_ · November 2023

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

I can't even pass the first round. I am a simple player who enjoys quests. There are a lot of people like me. This archive is not suitable for us.

Nope. But that has to be OK too. If you enjoy quests then that's your thing and EA just is not. And that's OK too.

It's NOT ok if you sub, and lose a dlc zone with this. As a person who subs used to be 2 dlc dungeons that were/are rarely run. Now it's sub but get absolutely nothing for it. Top tier players get all the benefits. That is NOT right.

im a lil confused, you dont lose a dlc zone, its base game

Braffin · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I disagree on this. If Arc 1 is made considerably easier than the rest of EA, there is a high chance, that the gap between Arcs 1 and 2 becomes too steep, thus denying those players the feeling of progression, as Arc 1 would be an easy farm for them, while they hit the wall when entering Arc 2.

Then we would see the very same disaster as we do now with the split normal/veteran in trials arenas and dungeons.

I'd much prefer to see an additional "training Arc" with seperate rules, so players can train boss mechanics without the restrictions usually tied to EA. Coupled with a seperated loot-table (I'd leave class-sets and overland sets as is, so people obtain gear to improve their experience, but remove the actual currency from those Arc to prevent abuse.)

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Im having a really hard time believing how many people on here want it nerfed before console can try it.

Heres the truth though: they won't.

Heres the why: they want and should get good statistics on completion rates across the whole player base on all platforms before they make adjustments. This is how it has prety much always been done after final adjustments in pts and release. New trials, news dungeons ect.

They won't because they can't. The 2 weeks period is for console review requirements. This has been stated before they couldn't even fix massive bugs much less just adjust content. I have often felt that those 2 weeks are like seeing the tsunami wave coming and not being able to move.

Yes im aware of the requirements. Essentially what is being floated is they would make a decision to nerf it before release and then do so immediately after. As it is going through review it isnt possible to change currently. What im saying is that no decisions would be made before console release anyway because metrics arent there yet across the player base to warrent it. Feedback can be given and im sure it will be looked at but how long did it take them to nerf graven deep for example. It certainly wasnt a day or 2 after console got it.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I disagree on this. If Arc 1 is made considerably easier than the rest of EA, there is a high chance, that the gap between Arcs 1 and 2 becomes too steep, thus denying those players the feeling of progression, as Arc 1 would be an easy farm for them, while they hit the wall when entering Arc 2.

Then we would see the very same disaster as we do now with the split normal/veteran in trials arenas and dungeons.

I'd much prefer to see an additional "training Arc" with seperate rules, so players can train boss mechanics without the restrictions usually tied to EA. Coupled with a seperated loot-table (I'd leave class-sets and overland sets as is, so people obtain gear to improve their experience, but remove the actual currency from those Arc to prevent abuse.)

If someone's goal is to improve, they're not going to stop just because arc 2 was harder than arc 1.

If they aren't looking to improve, then they aren't going to move to arc 2 regardless because the daily and bust are available from arc 1.

If they do want to improve, but just need a little push. Confidence that they can succeed is a big part in taking that leap. If such a person is demoralized by arc 1, they aren't going to take that leap.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

I can't even pass the first round. I am a simple player who enjoys quests. There are a lot of people like me. This archive is not suitable for us.

Nope. But that has to be OK too. If you enjoy quests then that's your thing and EA just is not. And that's OK too.

It's NOT ok if you sub, and lose a dlc zone with this. As a person who subs used to be 2 dlc dungeons that were/are rarely run. Now it's sub but get absolutely nothing for it. Top tier players get all the benefits. That is NOT right.

im a lil confused, you dont lose a dlc zone, its base game

They canceled small zone dlc for an undetermined amount of time (certainly this year and next) to focus on adding new systems. Endless Archive is an example of such a system.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

after many many runs in the archive over the past week, for me personally i didnt even notice the difficulty increase until at least arc 3 (running as a slightly tanky dps and a full healer 2 person group)

arc 1 felt like normal non dlc dungeon, arc 2 felt like normal dlc dungeon, arc 3 felt like non dlc vet dungeon, arc 4 is where it started to feel like actual non-dlc vet dungeon, and arc 5 (when i finally reached that) felt like it was about dlc vet dungeon

the only part that that ive found to be a bit overtuned are the marauders, you almost have to have a full tank build to deal with them

Xandreia_ · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

LikiLoki wrote: »

I can't even pass the first round. I am a simple player who enjoys quests. There are a lot of people like me. This archive is not suitable for us.

Nope. But that has to be OK too. If you enjoy quests then that's your thing and EA just is not. And that's OK too.

It's NOT ok if you sub, and lose a dlc zone with this. As a person who subs used to be 2 dlc dungeons that were/are rarely run. Now it's sub but get absolutely nothing for it. Top tier players get all the benefits. That is NOT right.

im a lil confused, you dont lose a dlc zone, its base game

They canceled small zone dlc for an undetermined amount of time (certainly this year and next) to focus on adding new systems. Endless Archive is an example of such a system.

but people who subbed were told this long before they released details of what EA was! complaining about a dlc loss is kinda like throwing ones toys out the pram over a cookie crumb.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

after many many runs in the archive over the past week, for me personally i didnt even notice the difficulty increase until at least arc 3 (running as a slightly tanky dps and a full healer 2 person group)

arc 1 felt like normal non dlc dungeon, arc 2 felt like normal dlc dungeon, arc 3 felt like non dlc vet dungeon, arc 4 is where it started to feel like actual non-dlc vet dungeon, and arc 5 (when i finally reached that) felt like it was about dlc vet dungeon

the only part that that ive found to be a bit overtuned are the marauders, you almost have to have a full tank build to deal with them

Oh that's very good to know! Thanks.

Braffin · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I disagree on this. If Arc 1 is made considerably easier than the rest of EA, there is a high chance, that the gap between Arcs 1 and 2 becomes too steep, thus denying those players the feeling of progression, as Arc 1 would be an easy farm for them, while they hit the wall when entering Arc 2.

Then we would see the very same disaster as we do now with the split normal/veteran in trials arenas and dungeons.

I'd much prefer to see an additional "training Arc" with seperate rules, so players can train boss mechanics without the restrictions usually tied to EA. Coupled with a seperated loot-table (I'd leave class-sets and overland sets as is, so people obtain gear to improve their experience, but remove the actual currency from those Arc to prevent abuse.)

If someone's goal is to improve, they're not going to stop just because arc 2 was harder than arc 1.

If they aren't looking to improve, then they aren't going to move to arc 2 regardless because the daily and bust are available from arc 1.

If they do want to improve, but just need a little push. Confidence that they can succeed is a big part in taking that leap. If such a person is demoralized by arc 1, they aren't going to take that leap.

That's correct.

Thing is, exactly that is the current state of EA. Nerfing Arc 1 considerably would widen those gap.

I assume you saw the vids, where players did succeed on lvl 4 toons against bosses in Arc 1. I honestly don't know how to make this content even easier without deleting any friction of challenge.

Most complaints I see are centered around bosses, which are unfamiliar and new to the affected players. They tried them around 2-3 times and want to see them at least deleted from Arc 1 entirely, because they call them "trial bosses" (which is entirely incorrect).

I for myself on the contrary fully believe, that also players which aren't able to proceed into Arc 2 yet, have every right to experience the full content instead of a "light version".

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I disagree on this. If Arc 1 is made considerably easier than the rest of EA, there is a high chance, that the gap between Arcs 1 and 2 becomes too steep, thus denying those players the feeling of progression, as Arc 1 would be an easy farm for them, while they hit the wall when entering Arc 2.

Then we would see the very same disaster as we do now with the split normal/veteran in trials arenas and dungeons.

I'd much prefer to see an additional "training Arc" with seperate rules, so players can train boss mechanics without the restrictions usually tied to EA. Coupled with a seperated loot-table (I'd leave class-sets and overland sets as is, so people obtain gear to improve their experience, but remove the actual currency from those Arc to prevent abuse.)

If someone's goal is to improve, they're not going to stop just because arc 2 was harder than arc 1.

If they aren't looking to improve, then they aren't going to move to arc 2 regardless because the daily and bust are available from arc 1.

If they do want to improve, but just need a little push. Confidence that they can succeed is a big part in taking that leap. If such a person is demoralized by arc 1, they aren't going to take that leap.

That's correct.

Thing is, exactly that is the current state of EA. Nerfing Arc 1 considerably would widen those gap.

I assume you saw the vids, where players did succeed on lvl 4 toons against bosses in Arc 1. I honestly don't know how to make this content even easier without deleting any friction of challenge.

Most complaints I see are centered around bosses, which are unfamiliar and new to the affected players. They tried them around 2-3 times and want to see them at least deleted from Arc 1 entirely, because they call them "trial bosses" (which is entirely incorrect).

I for myself on the contrary fully believe, that also players which aren't able to proceed into Arc 2 yet, have every right to experience the full content instead of a "light version".

Neither of those videos addressed the pain points that people were speaking on though.

Someone complaining about a "trial boss" and saying it's "RNG" whether they can win, aren't complaining about the boss from fungal grotto.

And we honestly don't have the stats to know if the majority of players can beat those bosses. Maybe they're right and represent the 80% of players who can't get past them either. Or, maybe it's like 3% of people who are just being loud and it's already perfectly tuned.

I don't think a vet player having an easy time can speak to the tuning of the game mode for a casual.

I remember when everyone complained about the Crow boss in the Halloween event, made these same arguments because they didn't know it was group content. They said it was too hard to make to solo and unenjoyable. Then they learned it was group content, started forming groups, and the complaints ceased. I made a video to show low power players that it could be done at that power level and give some hints on how to do it, as some players were complaining you needed trial gear.

I also pointed out that it was group content, technically.

It turned out that they were right about it being too hard to solo for the average player, and now they have a giant warning the first time you enter telling you to go get a group.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

after many many runs in the archive over the past week, for me personally i didnt even notice the difficulty increase until at least arc 3 (running as a slightly tanky dps and a full healer 2 person group)

arc 1 felt like normal non dlc dungeon, arc 2 felt like normal dlc dungeon, arc 3 felt like non dlc vet dungeon, arc 4 is where it started to feel like actual non-dlc vet dungeon, and arc 5 (when i finally reached that) felt like it was about dlc vet dungeon

the only part that that ive found to be a bit overtuned are the marauders, you almost have to have a full tank build to deal with them

Oh that's very good to know! Thanks.

yeah, from my experience the only time i could see anyone having trouble with a non-tho'at boss is because they never experienced the content where the boss came from naturally so they wouldnt know what to expect

i would say the cycle 4 bosses were the ones that usually included those tougher bosses such as dragons and scaled down trial bosses (some of those trial bosses may need a little bit of tuning as well, they didnt feel overpowered but they did feel like their overall dmg output was a good bit higher than some of the other ones)

i will also note that even some bosses you may recognize, may have some new or mixed in mechanics from other bosses (they didnt feel out of theme and were a pleasant surprise lol)

spartaxoxo · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

after many many runs in the archive over the past week, for me personally i didnt even notice the difficulty increase until at least arc 3 (running as a slightly tanky dps and a full healer 2 person group)

arc 1 felt like normal non dlc dungeon, arc 2 felt like normal dlc dungeon, arc 3 felt like non dlc vet dungeon, arc 4 is where it started to feel like actual non-dlc vet dungeon, and arc 5 (when i finally reached that) felt like it was about dlc vet dungeon

the only part that that ive found to be a bit overtuned are the marauders, you almost have to have a full tank build to deal with them

Oh that's very good to know! Thanks.

yeah, from my experience the only time i could see anyone having trouble with a non-tho'at boss is because they never experienced the content where the boss came from naturally so they wouldnt know what to expect

i would say the cycle 4 bosses were the ones that usually included those tougher bosses such as dragons and scaled down trial bosses (some of those trial bosses may need a little bit of tuning as well, they didnt feel overpowered but they did feel like their overall dmg output was a good bit higher than some of the other ones)

i will also note that even some bosses you may recognize, may have some new or mixed in mechanics from other bosses (they didnt feel out of theme and were a pleasant surprise lol)

Oh interesting about the new mechs. I was a bit worried I wouldn't find EA interesting until like Arc 4, because I have soloed a lot of dungeons for the story (I've even shared some videos of that for others on here) but if they also toss in a few new mechs to keep things fresh, that should make it more fun.

Braffin · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think players who are looking to improve are harmed by a confidence boosting, easy first round. TBH. So long as the difficulty ramps up fairly quickly after arc 1 so people looking for more don't have to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I disagree on this. If Arc 1 is made considerably easier than the rest of EA, there is a high chance, that the gap between Arcs 1 and 2 becomes too steep, thus denying those players the feeling of progression, as Arc 1 would be an easy farm for them, while they hit the wall when entering Arc 2.

Then we would see the very same disaster as we do now with the split normal/veteran in trials arenas and dungeons.

I'd much prefer to see an additional "training Arc" with seperate rules, so players can train boss mechanics without the restrictions usually tied to EA. Coupled with a seperated loot-table (I'd leave class-sets and overland sets as is, so people obtain gear to improve their experience, but remove the actual currency from those Arc to prevent abuse.)

If someone's goal is to improve, they're not going to stop just because arc 2 was harder than arc 1.

If they aren't looking to improve, then they aren't going to move to arc 2 regardless because the daily and bust are available from arc 1.

If they do want to improve, but just need a little push. Confidence that they can succeed is a big part in taking that leap. If such a person is demoralized by arc 1, they aren't going to take that leap.

That's correct.

Thing is, exactly that is the current state of EA. Nerfing Arc 1 considerably would widen those gap.

I assume you saw the vids, where players did succeed on lvl 4 toons against bosses in Arc 1. I honestly don't know how to make this content even easier without deleting any friction of challenge.

Most complaints I see are centered around bosses, which are unfamiliar and new to the affected players. They tried them around 2-3 times and want to see them at least deleted from Arc 1 entirely, because they call them "trial bosses" (which is entirely incorrect).

I for myself on the contrary fully believe, that also players which aren't able to proceed into Arc 2 yet, have every right to experience the full content instead of a "light version".

Neither of those videos addressed the pain points that people were speaking on though.

Someone complaining about a "trial boss" and saying it's "RNG" whether they can win, aren't complaining about the boss from fungal grotto.

And we honestly don't have the stats to know if the majority of players can beat those bosses. Maybe they're right and represent the 80% of players who can't get past them either. Or, maybe it's like 3% of people who are just being loud and it's already perfectly tuned.

I don't think a vet player having an easy time can speak to the tuning of the game mode for a casual.

I remember when everyone complained about the Crow boss in the Halloween event, made these same arguments because they didn't know it was group content. They said it was too hard to make to solo and unenjoyable. Then they learned it was group content, started forming groups, and the complaints ceased. I made a video to show low power players that it could be done at that power level and give some hints on how to do it, as some players were complaining you needed trial gear.

I also pointed out that it was group content, technically.

It turned out that they were right about it being too hard to solo for the average player, and now they have a giant warning the first time you enter telling you to go get a group.

I'm with you on that: As said before, if indeed a major part of the playerbase already interested in EA (I exclude all others, as I for example exclude myself from talking about ToT, as I don't play it. Not the game's fault.) is unable to clear Arc 1, then adjustments will be necessary.

But, as you say, we don't know that. And I seriously doubt it tbh.

The point about the vids aren't the bosses tho, but what the players are doing. They don't use any builds at all (or anything else advanced), but only the most basic knowledge given to players by doing the tutorial. They are in fact severly underequipped, even for a casual approach.

Nonetheless the bosses are doable even with this characters. So they are (at least in theory) doable by any player managing to get past the tutorial.

Really, I would show you that those ominous "trial bosses" basically aren't anything else than Kra'gh or Pelligare, because they aren't the bosses straight out of the trials, if it weren't such a slog to gather the proof (You don't see the 30-45 min it takes to reach the first boss due to low dmg on those vids. That's not exactly an awesome experience. And if you're unlucky you get Kra'gh nonetheless and hace to start over to gather the proof.).

Those bosses are very much in line with the others in there, they are all made exclusively for EA.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think a vet player having an easy time can speak to the tuning of the game mode for a casual.

Look guys! Somebody on the forums who has never met us ingame before says we're vet players, so it must be true!
Honestly, enough with the assumptions already. I got tired of them yesterday and they are still going.

Either stick to the facts given and stop forcing stereotypes befitting your narrative down our throats or simply accept that your arguments won't be taken seriously due to the simple fact that you like to decorate your truths a little too much.

It's not much to ask for.

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

If new content like EA is intended to help drive sales, having the buzz about it be that it's too hard for the average player won't meet the goal.

What I hope happens is after the player base has had a chance to engage with EA, the first arc (where the dallies are) ZOS will do whatever is needed to adjust it so that an average player can finish based on the stats.

Yes that may mean that for some the first arc will be boring, but if it can be soloed in 24 minutes on a naked toon the easier version should take a minimal amount of time. There are still 17 (at least) arcs left I don't think that one arc for the majority is too much to ask. Also maybe some sort of achievement could be added that would allow one to skip the first arc. Say, for instance, no deaths finish the arc in under 30 minutes three times?

Personally, I find the RNG associated with the difficulty the most problematic. I can't remember the mechanics of 68 bosses not to mention random marauders. I run a lot of dungeons, but on normal, on normal, you do not need mechanics (that's very much a separate issue) so I do know them but have not practiced. I don't do trials so I have no idea at all about those and I'm not interested in spending hours and hours in EA learning them. I don't have that much play time and my hands can only stand so much intense combat on a given day.

Save points, yes, disable the leaderboards for me I will not care. I care about saving progress if it takes me longer than 15 minutes to make lunch.

Syldras · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

1) Yes, that's how rogue-like styled game modes work. You got a limited amount of chances. But fear not! You can jump straight back in after using the handy hourglass next to the entrance and reset the thing.

I know that this is the concept of the dungeon, but you said people could use it for training to fight a certain boss, and this is what I'm wondering about. How can someone train to fight against, for example, the Serpent this way? After 3 attempts it's over, and the player doesn't know on which run they will encounter the Serpent again. Maybe the next time - after another 30 to 45 minutes until they finally reach 1.4.3 again - , maybe in 3 days or a week? Maybe in 2 weeks? It's RNG after all. Of course they might still improve with every attempt, but I don't think an effective, strategical training is possible this way.

Braffin wrote: »

So, you think "extensive studies" are necessary to run into Arc 1 of EA with a lvl 4 toon and kill the bosses in there with nothing more than blocking, bashing, maybe dodging and basic attacks. Interesting. Care to elaborate? What research is necessary for this exactly?

You really think a new player, with a freshly made level 4 character, who has never seen a boss with more complex mechanics before (which require more than just mindlessly standing there, blocking and attacking), will manage to survive such an encounter in 1.4.3? With only 3 attempts to understand what's going on?

Again I could repeat that it also looks like bad design to me if it's totally random if a player gets one of these more complex and more difficult to fight bosses or something extremely easy like the dreugh king in 1.4.3. Difficulty should be graded.

More tomorrow, I have more important things to do now.

Braffin · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

1) Yes, that's how rogue-like styled game modes work. You got a limited amount of chances. But fear not! You can jump straight back in after using the handy hourglass next to the entrance and reset the thing.

I know that this is the concept of the dungeon, but you said people could use it for training to fight a certain boss, and this is what I'm wondering about. How can someone train to fight against, for example, the Serpent this way? After 3 attempts it's over, and the player doesn't know on which run they will encounter the Serpent again. Maybe the next time - after another 30 to 45 minutes until they finally reach 1.4.3 again - , maybe in 3 days or a week? Maybe in 2 weeks? It's RNG after all. Of course they might still improve with every attempt, but I don't think an effective, strategical training is possible this way.

Braffin wrote: »

So, you think "extensive studies" are necessary to run into Arc 1 of EA with a lvl 4 toon and kill the bosses in there with nothing more than blocking, bashing, maybe dodging and basic attacks. Interesting. Care to elaborate? What research is necessary for this exactly?

You really think a new player, with a freshly made level 4 character, who has never seen a boss with more complex mechanics before (which require more than just mindlessly standing there, blocking and attacking), will manage to survive such an encounter in 1.4.3? With only 3 attempts to understand what's going on?

Again I could repeat that it also looks like bad design to me if it's totally random if a player gets one of these more complex and more difficult to fight bosses or something extremely easy like the dreugh king in 1.4.3. Difficulty should be graded.

More tomorrow, I have more important things to do now.

No, a completely new player with a freshly made levl 4 character wouldn't enter EA in the first place with the attitude to succeed on their first try.
It takes a good portion of entitlement to expect to defeat bosses without learning their mechanics properly.

But I agree with your last sentence at least. It's gotten late, my bed is calling for me.