ZOS: How is this fair?

StaticWave · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

1) Your answer doesn't fit the discussion. You're creating a narrative where OBJ players are creating thread after thread complaining about being farmed for 15 minutes by DMers who have objectives but won't turn them in. The threads have actually been created by DM enthusiasts who complain that after a 20 minute que their game only lasts 5 minutes because somebody "too scared to fight" just caps on them over and over.

And bad players don't "deserve" to be farmed when the game could otherwise be won. What a horrible thing to say.

You are creating a narrative that we're constantly making threads complaining about objective players when it's not the case. In fact, the threads have been created because DM matches are almost non-existent, NOT because objective players end games in 5 minutes. Not only that, but many DM players like me receive far more whispers from objective players because they are mad that we treat every game as DM and not helping them win objectives.

Also, it's horrible to say bad players deserve to be farmed, yet it's ok to say good players are "trolly and toxic"? I fail to see the logic here. I don't care if people run for objectives, but if they're going to whisper me and say that I'm "trolly", then I'm going to throw back a similar complaint about how they run away from fights and end the game in 5 minutes after sitting in the queue for 15 minutes.

OBJnoob wrote: »

2) This answer also doesn't satisfy. "Just leave" is literally the #1 response to the Cyrodiil complaints as well, and therefore the parallel remains. You try to differentiate between the two but you fail to acknowledge that someone can also just change campaigns. Without incurring a deserter penalty, I might add. Or, unlike BGs, Cyrodiil is large enough and has enough people in it where you can literally just go to another castle and fight different people.

You mean change to a dead campaign like Blackreach? No thanks. Unlike Cyrodiil where there's only 1 populated campaign, BG gives you a game when you queue. 4 minute wait time isn't even that much. That's like 1 duel lol.

OBJnoob wrote: »

3) Here's the real reason since you failed to mention it: One is okay because you do it and the other isn't okay because you don't like it.

Same argument applies to the people complaining. It's ok to play objectives but it's not ok to play the game how we want. Isn't that, uh, what was advertised by ZOS? Play the game how you like? While we're at it, why not include gankers too since they aren't playing objectives?

It's funny because many small-scalers like me don't complain about people taking keeps, but we're getting bashed because we're doing what we enjoy which is fighting other people lol. Weird logic I guess.

OBJnoob wrote: »

As to your final comment... I am obviously in favor in having a DM que. But your dissatisfaction with the devs and the game itself really isn't an excuse to treat other players like crap. Next time you're wondering why everybody keeps leaving faster than new players can come... Look no further than yourself. I'm sure new players love hearing that they deserve to be farmed. Better still, to experience it first hand! Best yet, to then come to the forums and see the people that farmed you complaining about their own perceived grievances.

What makes you think I treat other players like crap? I haven't sent a single hate whisper in a year but I've received over 20 hate whispers from other people for literally just playing the game. I literally get t-bagged and sweep emoji-ed by zerglings after I die.

Thanks for the concern but I've looked pretty far. If you're a new player and you go out of your own way to bash better players and call them "trolly" or "toxic" for not playing the way you want, then I'm sorry but you deserved to be farmed. Maybe those new players should have tossed their ego aside and you know, learn a thing or two and become better players?

ESO_CenturionPlayer · October 2023

the thread is about deathmatch weekend and lamenting the lack of deathmatches relative to other game types

BG’s are a team game centered around an objective. You cannot cue every time and expect everyone to want to play like it’s Fortnite or something. You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t.

The cue is perfect the way it is now with the occasional weekend dedicated to match types. It serves the largest number of players effectively.

The DM dedicated crowd has the option of joining a guild and playing tournaments in coordinated play. The onus is on that dedicated segment of the community, not the general player base. Instead it seems that they insist on to decimating random PUG groups.

Stamicka · October 2023

Deathmatch weekend starts today! Thanks.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Lol let me remind you that the game used to have 5 separate queues for each game mode, and the majority of the BG community queued for DM. ZOS then combined those queues (which nobody in the BG community asked for) to reduce queue time for non DM matches. Mysteriously, DM matches started appearing less and less.

Look, I don't like playing objectives. I was able to queue specifically for DM in the past. I can't now. Until ZOS reimplements a separate queue for DM, I will continue to treat all game modes as DM. You can't just say we're selfish when ZOS took away a game mode we liked most and then force us to play 4 other game modes we don't enjoy. I can argue that you guys are more selfish because you guys knew that DM received the most queues so you removed it to get more players in other game modes.

the individual queues for BGs were not for each mode

there was 1 for DM, 1 for "flag games" (relic, chaos ball), and 1 for "land grab" (crazy king, domination)

deathmatch was the only one you could queue for a specific game mode from the beginning

then it was merged into 1 random queue (according to zos the queue was in an "unhealthy state" and wait times too long)

then more recently they tried other solutions which made BGs even more unenjoyable (changed queue to be DM only for like 3-4 months, then they had a DM only and random queue which was broken from the start because random pulled from the DM only queue and 99.9% of games were still DM)

they ended up reverting that as it drove away more people who didnt enjoy DM and again according to zos put the queues in an unhealthy state

with the random queue, DM didnt "mysteriously" appear less, theres 5 game modes and DM is only 1 of them, so it only has 20% chance to appear, where if you lump all of the objective modes together, thats 80% chance for any objective mode to appear, which is just basic statistics

i think they should go back to a DM + random queue, and avoid the mistake they did last time by actually separating the 2 queues (maybe call the DM queue "competitive mode")

OBJnoob · October 2023

@StaticWave I've been involved in this debate for like two years. Trust me the ongoing trend has been DM players complaining about OBJ players not the other way around. I'm not saying the reverse doesn't happen at all I'm just pointing out to you the incredibly lopsided balance of one versus the other. You have it backwards. That's all I have to say about that. I've been a mainstay in these debates. I don't recall your own participation being that fervent or frequent... So this is perhaps a point you could concede and gain some honesty points.

I'm not saying good players are toxic or trolly. I'm a good player. I don't farm noobs in BGs, run around trees ad nauseum, or ballgroup. Toxic and trolly players are toxic and trolly. The fact that this demographic overlaps with the other is what it is.

As far as "playing the game how you want" goes... Go right ahead. It's just stupid to treat a CtR like a DM, end up with 12 kills 0 deaths while your team loses in less than 5 minutes, then come here to complain about something that was always under your control. You know how to fix your own problem and, apparently, you are good enough to win if you want to or at least elongate the competition. You just don't want to.

It's like you're fasting in protest but keep complaining about being hungry.

To be clear I don't mind the protest. I enjoy fighting too, and normally just OBJ enough to get 1st or 2nd place while scrapping once a lead has been established. This tactic sees me winning a lot, killing a lot, getting high medal scores, keeps my games adequately long, and makes me happy without griefing anyone else.

I do understand if this same solution doesn't make you happy. Like I said, I don't mind the protest. I just mind the complaining. Suffer in silence for goodness sake... You're doing it to yourself.

Also... A final comment... If "so many PvPers prefer DM," then why wouldn't the majority of CtR games end scoreless after 15 minutes of fighting? If this were true there wouldn't be anything to complain about. Sounds to me like you're outnumbered... And if not, at least most people have the good sense to just get along.

ESO_CenturionPlayer · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

A final comment...

very well put and i agree with the post

Stamicka · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not saying good players are toxic or trolly. I'm a good player. I don't farm noobs in BGs, run around trees ad nauseum, or ballgroup. Toxic and trolly players are toxic and trolly. The fact that this demographic overlaps with the other is what it is.

Surely you are not suggesting that kiting trees and killing new players is toxic and trolly in a PvP zone right?

OBJnoob wrote: »

As far as "playing the game how you want" goes... Go right ahead. It's just stupid to treat a CtR like a DM, end up with 12 kills 0 deaths while your team loses in less than 5 minutes, then come here to complain about something that was always under your control. You know how to fix your own problem and, apparently, you are good enough to win if you want to or at least elongate the competition. You just don't want to.

It's like you're fasting in protest but keep complaining about being hungry.

To be clear I don't mind the protest. I enjoy fighting too, and normally just OBJ enough to get 1st or 2nd place while scrapping once a lead has been established. This tactic sees me winning a lot, killing a lot, getting high medal scores, keeps my games adequately long, and makes me happy without griefing anyone else.

I do understand if this same solution doesn't make you happy. Like I said, I don't mind the protest. I just mind the complaining. Suffer in silence for goodness sake... You're doing it to yourself.

Also... A final comment... If "so many PvPers prefer DM," then why wouldn't the majority of CtR games end scoreless after 15 minutes of fighting? If this were true there wouldn't be anything to complain about. Sounds to me like you're outnumbered... And if not, at least most people have the good sense to just get along.

Here's the thing, ESO has a tank problem. It is not difficult to build a character that does no damage, but cannot be killed even by a group of 4 players. When someone builds like this, they can still capture relics, pick up the chaos ball, and stack on flags. Throw a healer into the mix and it is very possible that the team will be unkillable IN A PVP MODE. I would argue that the best composition for objective modes is 3 tanks and 1 healer. Cause you don't have to kill anyone. Even in chaosball, you don't have to kill anybody to get the ball from them, cause the ball itself will kill them or the other team will kill them. You just have to be there when it happens.

People don't like showing up to PvP and not being able to kill others. Yes its a bigger issue than what we are talking about here, but you can't ignore context when talking about the distaste for objective modes.

Deathmatch is the only mode where bringing in a 3 tank 1 healer composition will accomplish absolutely nothing. That's what I and many others like about it.

StaticWave · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave I've been involved in this debate for like two years. Trust me the ongoing trend has been DM players complaining about OBJ players not the other way around. I'm not saying the reverse doesn't happen at all I'm just pointing out to you the incredibly lopsided balance of one versus the other. You have it backwards. That's all I have to say about that. I've been a mainstay in these debates. I don't recall your own participation being that fervent or frequent... So this is perhaps a point you could concede and gain some honesty points.

I'm not saying good players are toxic or trolly. I'm a good player. I don't farm noobs in BGs, run around trees ad nauseum, or ballgroup. Toxic and trolly players are toxic and trolly. The fact that this demographic overlaps with the other is what it is.

As far as "playing the game how you want" goes... Go right ahead. It's just stupid to treat a CtR like a DM, end up with 12 kills 0 deaths while your team loses in less than 5 minutes, then come here to complain about something that was always under your control. You know how to fix your own problem and, apparently, you are good enough to win if you want to or at least elongate the competition. You just don't want to.

It's like you're fasting in protest but keep complaining about being hungry.

To be clear I don't mind the protest. I enjoy fighting too, and normally just OBJ enough to get 1st or 2nd place while scrapping once a lead has been established. This tactic sees me winning a lot, killing a lot, getting high medal scores, keeps my games adequately long, and makes me happy without griefing anyone else.

I do understand if this same solution doesn't make you happy. Like I said, I don't mind the protest. I just mind the complaining. Suffer in silence for goodness sake... You're doing it to yourself.

Also... A final comment... If "so many PvPers prefer DM," then why wouldn't the majority of CtR games end scoreless after 15 minutes of fighting? If this were true there wouldn't be anything to complain about. Sounds to me like you're outnumbered... And if not, at least most people have the good sense to just get along.

I’ve been lurking, but not frequent. Can you tell me what DM players usually complain about OBJ players?

Idk why you are still arguing about me complaining. I’ve specifically stated in this thread twice that I don’t actually care and already treat every game as DM. I did however state that I would find OBJ games more enjoyable if people had engaged in fights more. I’ve had my fair share of games fighting a team full of tanks and healers, or a team with several relic runners. It wasn’t enjoyable in anyway. Still, that’s not an actual complaint because like I said, I’m already treating every game mode as DM.

As for your final comment, you have to remember that the DM-only BG community dwindled over the years from poor combat balance and bad server performance. 2 years ago we used to have BG tournaments with 10-15 teams participating. Years before that, the DM-only BG community was even larger. Poor combat balancing, lag, and a lack of PvP related content are why less people play DM BGs.

gariondavey · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Also... A final comment... If "so many PvPers prefer DM," then why wouldn't the majority of CtR games end scoreless after 15 minutes of fighting? If this were true there wouldn't be anything to complain about. Sounds to me like you're outnumbered... And if not, at least most people have the good sense to just get along.

I can't tell you the number of games I've been in where 10-11 out of 12 people, (a large majority) have wanted to do a deathmatch while 1 or 2 people don't.
Guess what: it only takes 1 person to make the game end early.
This has happened so many times in both solo queue and group queue. A 3 man joins against two 4 mans and the 1 person who is pugged in ruins the game EVEN AFTER being asked to just chill and let the fight happen. And don't get me started on the number of times we've whispered people in situations like that, and asked them to just relax for a few minutes but they instead send hate messages and mock people who are extending an olive branch.

gariondavey · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

As for your final comment, you have to remember that the DM-only BG community dwindled over the years from poor combat balance and bad server performance. 2 years ago we used to have BG tournaments with 10-15 teams participating. Years before that, the DM-only BG community was even larger. Poor combat balancing, lag, and a lack of PvP related content are why less people play DM BGs.

Can't stress this enough. Whiplash changes with dots in 2019 from patch to patch + bg queue changes really decreased the population.
Another mass exodus happened in 2021 when they released dc and hrothgar chill in overtuned forms despite tons of detailed feedback on the forums. This coincided with the release of new world which made it easy for people who were disgruntled to just peace out.
There has been a significant decline as well since 2021 after the queue changes.

I've said this so many times: if only zos didn't let the random queue include dm when they had 2 queue options a year or 2 ago, they would only have 1 problem: people would complain about length of random queues.

OBJnoob · October 2023

Yes of course I can tell you what DM players complain about OBJ players. In a nutshell-- they basically think the OBJ players are less talented, scared to fight, and ruin the overall experience of BG PvP by avoiding fights and hyper-focusing the OBJ to end the game very quickly.

And for two years (perhaps a slight exaggeration,) my retort has remained the same: The OBJ can only be cheesed when enemies (in this case the team who just wants to DM,) actively avoid the OBJ. How on earth is a less talented PvPer going to amass 500 points standing on flags if more talented PvPers are present? With the Chaosball? With the relics? It won't happen. The less talented team will lose if the more talented team decides to give a crap.

And I'm not trying to ignore the problems where a person can hold the Chaosball somewhere nobody else can reach... Or pick up a relic even when they're being bashed... Or tanks or healers. I would like all this fixed just like everybody else. But it really doesn't matter if 1 tank can build to survive 4 people or not. Because IF the 4 are beating on the 1 ON A FLAG it doesn't matter if the tank dies or not. The flag will flip. And then you can leave 1 behind to nullify the tank while the other 3 go to fight or-- god forbid-- go to another flag. It really is that simple.

As far as YOU complaining, @StaticWave , okay I'm sorry and I take it back. I meant "you" in a more general sense of "you all," as in my opposition in this ongoing debate. I have not seen you complain very much on this topic. But I'll also tell you right now that I have freely backpedaled statements and issued apologies to people on these forums in an effort to maintain integrity and honesty. I have done so to you specifically 2 or 3 times. I will not do it again until the same courtesy is shown to me. You silently passed on your chance to get some honesty points and so you have none. I also recall, quite recently, having you tell me Bound Armaments was comparable to Assassins Will as you defended AW being nerfed-- meanwhile, simultaneously in a buff sorc thread, you're talking about all the changes BA needs to make it viable. Or even more recently as you seek to have ballgroups and crosshealing nerfed but defend your own right to run around trees.

And finally... About all the DM players leaving because of X,Y,Z. Okay. So they're gone now. And you're a relic of the past who misses their friends. In other words I was right and the DM-only-crowd is the minority. Why should changes be made in hopes of getting old players back at the expense of current players? People quit games all the time. It really isn't a big deal at all.

Stamicka wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not saying good players are toxic or trolly. I'm a good player. I don't farm noobs in BGs, run around trees ad nauseum, or ballgroup. Toxic and trolly players are toxic and trolly. The fact that this demographic overlaps with the other is what it is.

Surely you are not suggesting that kiting trees and killing new players is toxic and trolly in a PvP zone right?

OBJnoob wrote: »

As far as "playing the game how you want" goes... Go right ahead. It's just stupid to treat a CtR like a DM, end up with 12 kills 0 deaths while your team loses in less than 5 minutes, then come here to complain about something that was always under your control. You know how to fix your own problem and, apparently, you are good enough to win if you want to or at least elongate the competition. You just don't want to.

It's like you're fasting in protest but keep complaining about being hungry.

To be clear I don't mind the protest. I enjoy fighting too, and normally just OBJ enough to get 1st or 2nd place while scrapping once a lead has been established. This tactic sees me winning a lot, killing a lot, getting high medal scores, keeps my games adequately long, and makes me happy without griefing anyone else.

I do understand if this same solution doesn't make you happy. Like I said, I don't mind the protest. I just mind the complaining. Suffer in silence for goodness sake... You're doing it to yourself.

Also... A final comment... If "so many PvPers prefer DM," then why wouldn't the majority of CtR games end scoreless after 15 minutes of fighting? If this were true there wouldn't be anything to complain about. Sounds to me like you're outnumbered... And if not, at least most people have the good sense to just get along.

Here's the thing, ESO has a tank problem. It is not difficult to build a character that does no damage, but cannot be killed even by a group of 4 players. When someone builds like this, they can still capture relics, pick up the chaos ball, and stack on flags. Throw a healer into the mix and it is very possible that the team will be unkillable IN A PVP MODE. I would argue that the best composition for objective modes is 3 tanks and 1 healer. Cause you don't have to kill anyone. Even in chaosball, you don't have to kill anybody to get the ball from them, cause the ball itself will kill them or the other team will kill them. You just have to be there when it happens.

People don't like showing up to PvP and not being able to kill others. Yes its a bigger issue than what we are talking about here, but you can't ignore context when talking about the distaste for objective modes.

Deathmatch is the only mode where bringing in a 3 tank 1 healer composition will accomplish absolutely nothing. That's what I and many others like about it.

You're leaving out the important words. Killing bad players in PvP is fine but I didn't say killing. I said farming. Yes, farming is trolly and toxic. I didn't say LOSing is trolling or toxic. I said when you do it "ad nauseum," which literally means to a point of making you sick. You know what else literally makes you sick? Toxicity. Nuff said.

As far as the tank/healer problem... Some of what I said to Static can apply here as well. An added tip though... Try splitting your own team up as a way of dealing with this.

Stamicka · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

You're leaving out the important words. Killing bad players in PvP is fine but I didn't say killing. I said farming. Yes, farming is trolly and toxic. I didn't say LOSing is trolling or toxic. I said when you do it "ad nauseum," which literally means to a point of making you sick. You know what else literally makes you sick? Toxicity. Nuff said.

As far as the tank/healer problem... Some of what I said to Static can apply here as well. An added tip though... Try splitting your own team up as a way of dealing with this.

Farming is not trolly and toxic. If someone is the weakest member of their team and you kill them constantly to win, that's just strategy. If you see someone and you have the ability to kill them, just kill them. Ultimately it is up to ZOS and the MMR system to prevent cases where players have absolutely no chance. I just kill people without thinking about how many times I have killed them before, that's just PvP.

Even if I actively hunt someone down, that's not toxic. You're supposed to kill players in PvP, why should there be rules on how you kill them?

Also you are saying you can kite... but not too much? What are you on about? When does it become too much and how is it toxic, there's ways to handle kiters.

You recommend splitting the team up, that doesn't solve anything. At that point you are just running and back capping flags because you can't kill the tanks on the other team. Don't forget the tanks could split up as well. Flag modes (or any objective) would be much more fun if killing people was encouraged and rewarded. That is not the case, those modes reward tanking, running, and avoiding combat.

OBJnoob · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Non-DM modes would actually be fun if people didn’t intentionally avoid fights and use specific builds to end the match as quickly as possible.

Imagine sitting in a 15 minute queue as a high MMR player, finally getting a match, only to run into a dedicated relic runner or a team with 3 healers and a tank for Chaos Ball. Match ends in 5 minutes with basically no fun out of it.

Yes, people could have chased down the relic runner or focus on the Chaos Ball holder, but that doesn’t make the game anymore fun lol.

Are you complaining that people play the objective?[/quote]

I’m complaining about people who avoid ALL fights, and even intentionally die so as to spawn faster near the objective.

You won’t understand that until you wait 15 minute queues hoping for a good fight only to see it end in less than 5 minutes because everyone is avoiding fights to play objectives.[/quote]

Look what I found. LOL. Wow could I be more spot on? Apology withdrawn.

OBJnoob · October 2023

Stamicka wrote: »

Farming is not trolly and toxic. If someone is the weakest member of their team and you kill them constantly to win, that's just strategy.

Yeah but what if you kill them constantly TO LOSE and then complain about them winning?

Or wait let's pretend I didn't say that. I'll pull another trick out of my bag...

Capping flags is not trolly or toxic. If the other team ignores the objective then just cap the objective. It's strategy.

This is too easy. I need someone else to argue with.

Stamicka · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Farming is not trolly and toxic. If someone is the weakest member of their team and you kill them constantly to win, that's just strategy.

Yeah but what if you kill them constantly TO LOSE and then complain about them winning?

Or wait let's pretend I didn't say that. I'll pull another trick out of my bag...

Capping flags is not trolly or toxic. If the other team ignores the objective then just cap the objective. It's strategy.

This is too easy. I need someone else to argue with.

I agree with this though. I don't wanna be in the non DM game mode in the first place. I have no issue playing the objective in the objective game modes. I just find them boring, poorly designed, and a waste of time, mostly cause of the tanks.

This DM weekend is the first time I've logged on in 2 months. Having a Non DM Queue or at least not having a 50% chance at deathmatch keeps me from playing the game these days (among other things).

OBJnoob · October 2023

Well on a personal level I'm sorry for you. You wish ESO had catered more to your preferences but it didn't and so you (mostly) quit.

In a broader sense though you're just one person and can't really speak for what others may like or what might encourage them to play.

There is a DM Weekend Sucks (not what it's actually called,) thread circulating at this very moment.

I respect your right to not play a game that doesn't satisfy you. In the grand scheme of life I'm not even sure this registers as a disappointment. I don't like sweet potatoes, for instance, so I don't eat them. It never occurred to me to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture and ask them to make sweet potatoes taste different. It's a problem I don't need help solving. And plenty of people like sweet potatoes just the way they are.

gariondavey · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

And finally... About all the DM players leaving because of X,Y,Z. Okay. So they're gone now. And you're a relic of the past who misses their friends. In other words I was right and the DM-only-crowd is the minority. Why should changes be made in hopes of getting old players back at the expense of current players? People quit games all the time. It really isn't a big deal at all.

When a community is cut in half and the reduced by 75 percent again after that, it should be pretty darn indicative that there are serious issues and ball-dropping going on from the management/owners. It is a big deal.

I can't say I care for comments such as "a relic of the past".

Lastly, you are definitely absolutely and most certainly not right that the dm crowd is a minority.

StaticWave · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Look what I found. LOL. Wow could I be more spot on? Apology withdrawn.

I’ve specifically stated in this thread twice that I don’t actually care and already treat every game as DM. I did however state that I would find OBJ games more enjoyable if people had engaged in fights more. I’ve had my fair share of games fighting a team full of tanks and healers, or a team with several relic runners. It wasn’t enjoyable in anyway. Still, that’s not an actual complaint because like I said, I’m already treating every game mode as DM.

StaticWave · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I also recall, quite recently, having you tell me Bound Armaments was comparable to Assassins Will as you defended AW being nerfed-- meanwhile, simultaneously in a buff sorc thread, you're talking about all the changes BA needs to make it viable.

I did say AW was comparable to BA IF AW received a tooltip nerf. Also, BA 100% needs to be buffed. Let's not forget that in U35, they removed the 10% light attack damage passive and nerfed its tooltip damage by 11%:

Meanwhile, NB got SEVERAL buffs to AW over the years, such as:

1) 33% heal increased to 50% heal when in melee range
2) 5% dmg mitigation at full stacks
3) Removed the mitigation and instead gives 300 WD/SD at full stacks

I've also specifically stated that AW's tooltip is not the problem, but the extra dmg amplifiers were. Remove the 300 WD/SD, and it would have been fine.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Or even more recently as you seek to have ballgroups and crosshealing nerfed but defend your own right to run around trees.

This is not even comparable in the slightest. Cross-healing in ball groups is a legitimate issue. I've had my fair share of playing in ball groups and the amount of cross-heals I received was unimaginable. Every 2 seconds, I was getting 8+ Echoing Vigor ticks on top of other cross-heals. It literally felt like cheating because I couldn't die unless I ran into another ball group and get ult dumped. Even then, there are means to counter ult dumps. Take a look at how ball groups fight and you can just see how aids it is. 12 people stack as much healing as possible, then use sets like DC/Rush of Agony/Plaguebreak to bomb.

Mean while, running around trees is a BASIC defensive maneuver. I seriously don't understand why people think it's trolly. Running around trees, or LoS, exists in every single PvP game, whether it's an FPS, MOBA, or MMORG. Like, even in real life, people take cover when they are outnumbered or being shot at. Do you expect them to just stand in the open and get their arse handed to them? No, they use cover, or LoS, and stay alive. It's a natural reaction and it works. Just because it's a video game doesn't mean I'm going to be a donut and stand in the open tanking 10+ people with no healer lol.

OBJnoob · October 2023

Yes I'm aware of why someone would LOS. The same reason another might heal-stack, or avoid fighting to cap a relic, or play a 50k HP warden. Cuz nobody wants to die in PvP and as long as it is them it's justified and as long as it's somebody else it's broken and trolly.

You can describe it or explain it however you want... You're talking to someone who has been in all of these situations as well. The game is full of cheese and toxicity and some of you think you're above it but you're certainly not.

So run around your trees. And farm your noobs. You'll just have to deal with being called a hypocrite when discussions like this roll around. Cuz somebody needs to be honest around here. And all the agrees and awesomes in the world can't pull your collective foot out of your collective mouth.

Again, and as always, I don't mind anyone LOSing or going for kills in an OBJ. I just mind the hypocrisy and the complaining. Get a grip-- it's a video game.

StaticWave · October 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of why someone would LOS. The same reason another might heal-stack, or avoid fighting to cap a relic, or play a 50k HP warden. Cuz nobody wants to die in PvP and as long as it is them it's justified and as long as it's somebody else it's broken and trolly.

You can describe it or explain it however you want... You're talking to someone who has been in all of these situations as well. The game is full of cheese and toxicity and some of you think you're above it but you're certainly not.

So run around your trees. And farm your noobs. You'll just have to deal with being called a hypocrite when discussions like this roll around. Cuz somebody needs to be honest around here. And all the agrees and awesomes in the world can't pull your collective foot out of your collective mouth.

Again, and as always, I don't mind anyone LOSing or going for kills in an OBJ. I just mind the hypocrisy and the complaining. Get a grip-- it's a video game.

You said it’s hypocritical to complain about cross-healing or building tanky when I LoS, or it’s hypocritical to complain about ppl playing OBJ when I only do DM.

What I don’t get is why you’re trying so hard to be neutral. I’m clearly never going to be supportive of OBJ players or cross healing or building tanky, and I’ve stated my own reasoning:

1) ZOS has taken DM only queue from us, and has reduced the amount of DM games over the years. You can’t expect us to be nonchalant about it.

We’ve tried everything we could, including queuing 12 ppl at the same time, but like someone here said, even when asked, it only takes 1 random to ignore and grab Relics to end the match while the remaining 11 players are fighting. That is where the majority of complaints about OBJ players come from. Of course the blame isn’t 100% places on the OBJ player. It’s on ZOS. That is why we constantly make threads asking for ZOS to bring back DM only queue.

2) Cross healing is and always will be more problematic than LoS. You can call it hypocritical or whatever, but LoS doesn’t do anything but stall out a fight, whereas cross healing actually allows you to take on objectives such as taking over a keep. They are not comparable at all. Same reasoning for building tanky vs LoS. What do you think is more problematic, a dude running around trees posing no threat, or a guy who’s super tanky and still has kill potential? Scale that up and we get LoS vs a ball group that can wipe an entire zerg. It’s not comparable.

I can be objective about certain things, such as combat balance, but LoS being “trolly” or people not playing objectives are not worth the concerns. It’s always been a topic of debate since the inception of the game. There’s always ppl complaining about 1vXers or small scalers using LoS, and there’s always ppl complaining about ppl not helping with capturing keeps.

At the end of the day, that’s one way to play the game and unless it severely interferes with balance, I don’t see why you and I or anybody here needs to make a fuss about it. I don’t like being zerged or ganked, but I accepted that as a part of the game. I may complain when ppl tbag me after zerging or ganking me down, but that doesn’t mean I actually want ppl to stop doing that lol. It’s just a natural reaction and objectively speaking they aren’t hurting game balance so why should I care in the grand scheme of things.

OBJnoob · October 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of why someone would LOS. The same reason another might heal-stack, or avoid fighting to cap a relic, or play a 50k HP warden. Cuz nobody wants to die in PvP and as long as it is them it's justified and as long as it's somebody else it's broken and trolly.

You can describe it or explain it however you want... You're talking to someone who has been in all of these situations as well. The game is full of cheese and toxicity and some of you think you're above it but you're certainly not.

So run around your trees. And farm your noobs. You'll just have to deal with being called a hypocrite when discussions like this roll around. Cuz somebody needs to be honest around here. And all the agrees and awesomes in the world can't pull your collective foot out of your collective mouth.

Again, and as always, I don't mind anyone LOSing or going for kills in an OBJ. I just mind the hypocrisy and the complaining. Get a grip-- it's a video game.

You said it’s hypocritical to complain about cross-healing or building tanky when I LoS, or it’s hypocritical to complain about ppl playing OBJ when I only do DM.

What I don’t get is why you’re trying so hard to be neutral. I’m clearly never going to be supportive of OBJ players or cross healing or building tanky, and I’ve stated my own reasoning:
1) ZOS has taken DM only queue from us, and has reduced the amount of DM games over the years. You can’t expect us to be nonchalant about it.

We’ve tried everything we could, including queuing 12 ppl at the same time, but like someone here said, even when asked, it only takes 1 random to ignore and grab Relics to end the match while the remaining 11 players are fighting. That is where the majority of complaints about OBJ players come from. Of course the blame isn’t 100% places on the OBJ player. It’s on ZOS. That is why we constantly make threads asking for ZOS to bring back DM only queue.

2) Cross healing is and always will be more problematic than LoS. You can call it hypocritical or whatever, but LoS doesn’t do anything but stall out a fight, whereas cross healing actually allows you to take on objectives such as taking over a keep. They are not comparable at all. Same reasoning for building tanky vs LoS. What do you think is more problematic, a dude running around trees posing no threat, or a guy who’s super tanky and still has kill potential? Scale that up and we get LoS vs a ball group that can wipe an entire zerg. It’s not comparable.

I can be objective about certain things, such as combat balance, but LoS being “trolly” or people not playing objectives are not worth the concerns. It’s always been a topic of debate since the inception of the game. There’s always ppl complaining about 1vXers or small scalers using LoS, and there’s always ppl complaining about ppl not helping with capturing keeps.

At the end of the day, that’s one way to play the game and unless it severely interferes with balance, I don’t see why you and I or anybody here needs to make a fuss about it. I don’t like being zerged or ganked, but I accepted that as a part of the game. I may complain when ppl tbag me after zerging or ganking me down, but that doesn’t mean I actually want ppl to stop doing that lol. It’s just a natural reaction and objectively speaking they aren’t hurting game balance so why should I care in the grand scheme of things.

It doesn't take a lot of effort for me to be neutral. Neutral is kinda my philosophy on life. Real life politics for instance... The people on the left want X, have a hand full of good reasons for wanting it, but unfortunately often go too far. The people on the right want Y, have an equal number of reasons, but unfortunately often go too far. Being neutral isn't about not having an opinion. Being neutral is about trying not to go too far yourself, even when you may be right, and understanding the other side's reasons-- no, more than that-- considering them important too. Considering those people to also be worth pleasing.

This is the basic philosophy from which every compromise is born. But not to fancy it up too much... This is basically just a fundamental amount of empathy and maturity.

So I get aggravated when I see certain things on the news. And, likewise, I get aggravated when I read certain things on the forums.

Once you've said the words "bad players deserve to be farmed," or stood in support of someone else who said it, you've gone too far... Whether you were right or not. This sentiment IS toxic IS immature and IS a reason why some people have left.

The DM crowd, or whatever you all would like to be called, is rather toxic. Your words on the forums are toxic and your actions in game are toxic. At least the ones we're talking about now. Yes, Static, even you. Just yesterday you were explaining about the reasons why you treat OBJ modes like DM... You were telling someone how you aren't selfish. Do you remember this post? Do you remember, in the same post, going on to literally say that OBJ players had taken away your DM que?

And you can act like you just misspoke now if you want to. That you're only mad at ZOS. But your little protest isn't hurting ZOS at all. It's only hurting the players that are maybe still learning or maybe just want to play the game the way it's currently set up to be played. So should I listen to the words you may speak that go against your actions? Or the ones that are congruent with what you do? The phrase "Freudian Slip" comes to mind.

Someone that cares about the longevity of the game as a whole or the playerbase would not openly belittle people or playstyles or farm lesser players into the dirt. Someone that was trying to be objective about a debate would concede points when they are made, not skip over them to say whatever it was they had been angrily screaming in their own head instead of paying thorough attention to what was being said.

So. With all that said.

IF the problem is that your que times are like 20 minutes long and your games end in 5 minutes because you're DMing and someone else keeps capping OBJ as fast as possible... Consider that taking your DM party over to the OBJ might have the following effects: 1) Your games will last longer. 2) You'll get to kill the pesky OBJ guy. 3) You won't have to listen to me anymore.

Please consider that 11 minutes of BG, inside of which you had to spend 3 minutes tending to an OBJ, might contain more minutes of killing than 5 minutes of getting speed capped. Please consider that not only are you making a problem for the OBJ crowd but you are actually worsening your own predicament as well. And your anger is festering. And it isn't directed where you hope it is.

ZOS_Hadeostry · October 2023

Greetings everyone,

As this thread has run its course and is no longer constructive, we are now going to close it. We always encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they remain respectful when doing so.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.