ZOS: How is this fair?

StaticWave

fall0athboy wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Honestly, just make every battleground weekend DM weekend. Who is doing capture the relic over and over and over again? People who need the achievements, sure but… is it fun? I enjoy all game modes but I don’t want to do any of them repeatedly. Might as well let DM people have their time to shine.

I mean, call me crazy, but I absolutely love Capture the Relic.

StaticWave wrote: »

Non-DM modes would actually be fun if people didn’t intentionally avoid fights and use specific builds to end the match as quickly as possible.

Imagine sitting in a 15 minute queue as a high MMR player, finally getting a match, only to run into a dedicated relic runner or a team with 3 healers and a tank for Chaos Ball. Match ends in 5 minutes with basically no fun out of it.

Yes, people could have chased down the relic runner or focus on the Chaos Ball holder, but that doesn’t make the game anymore fun lol.

Are you complaining that people play the objective?

I’m complaining about people who avoid ALL fights, and even intentionally die so as to spawn faster near the objective.

You won’t understand that until you wait 15 minute queues hoping for a good fight only to see it end in less than 5 minutes because everyone is avoiding fights to play objectives.

StaticWave

Besessenes wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Non-DM modes would actually be fun if people didn’t intentionally avoid fights and use specific builds to end the match as quickly as possible.

Imagine being unhappy with people playing the objective instead of [snip] killing each other in a BG that actually has an objective.

[edited for baiting]

When did I say I was unhappy lol? I treat every game mode as DM. DM map is just a bonus as everyone will now have to engage in fights to win.

Funnily enough, it’s actually quite the opposite of what you’re claiming. I constantly get whispers or bashed by people who want to play objectives because I’m “not helping them win”. So is it me complaining about objective players, or objective players complaining about me when I treat every game as DM lol?

gariondavey

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So if memory serves, the reason there was no deathmatch in May was because we had WhiteStrake's Mayhem live. However, we will pass this on as general feedback, the want to have more Deathmatch in the rotation. We'll also ask about the rotation and see if there is any clarity we can provide. Probably won't have an answer until Monday.

Hi @ZOS_Kevin, what was the answer that was obtained that Monday? (a couple weeks ago)

Thanks!

OBJnoob

I agree that the missed DM should be made up for, and DM weekends shouldn't be skipped anymore.

And I would also love it if the ques could be separated again.

But, not to disappoint, I am of course going to say something in support of OBJ modes at this time and against those that use them to troll, complain, and think DM somehow deserves 50% representation when it is only 20% of available modes. I didn't see this thread when it was first created so I'm going to quote an old comment...

Erickson9610 wrote: »

It's funny that Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds all involve capturing and holding some kind of objective — keeps, scrolls, districts, relics, chaosballs, flags... I wish more PvP modes involved just plain Deathmatch, like Dueling does.

I want more opportunities to play Deathmatch Battlegrounds.

While this makes a decent point, there is something else funny hidden inside if you dig a little deeper.

The forums are flooded with people complaining about ballgroups and small-scalers, in Cyrodiil, holding up in resource towers and castles to farm kills without any intention of taking the objective. This is almost universally agreed upon to be toxic, trolly, and unsportsmanlike.

Why don't we look at people who do the same thing in BGs the same???

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

The forums are flooded with people complaining about ballgroups and small-scalers, in Cyrodiil, holding up in resource towers and castles to farm kills without any intention of taking the objective. This is almost universally agreed upon to be toxic, trolly, and unsportsmanlike.

Why don't we look at people who do the same thing in BGs the same???

Because of 2 reasons:

1) Unlike Cyrodiil, the strongest team tends to be the one that can hold 2 Relics or a Chaos Ball for the entire game without dying while still getting kills.

You can’t blame those players if they want to farm kills. The fact that Relics and Chaosball apply a heal debuff/DoT/skill limit already puts whoever’s holding them at a higher disadvantage than those who are not. If your team can’t take away the Relic from someone with all that disadvantage, then your team deserves to be farmed, no offense.

2) You can just leave the match if you don’t want to endure fighting those players. It’s not like you’re going to be stuck in the same campaign and have to play against the “trolls”. Just leave the match, wait 4 minutes, and queue against other people lol.

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Freilauftomate

Why can they not just give us a good PvP experience? There is more than enough potential in the game, and other games show how easy it would be. But we have to deal with an unfinished product that's not working properly, getting downsized, ignored and neglected. Like it's someone's mission to destroy PvP in this game...

gariondavey

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Sorry, but no thanks. 80+ percent of high mmr community wants to dm.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Sorry, but no thanks. 80+ percent of high mmr community wants to dm.

That is a problem to address with the developers of the game. Don’t ruin a game mode for people trying to play in earnest.

In the interim, it just turns newer people off of BG’s and PvP generally. Not a fun experience.

gariondavey

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Sorry, but no thanks. 80+ percent of high mmr community wants to dm.

That is a problem to address with the developers of the game. Don’t ruin a game mode for people trying to play in earnest.

In the interim, it just turns newer people off of BG’s and PvP generally. Not a fun experience.

Myself and others have been advocating for years for the tools (premade lobby, group dm only queue) or restructuring (2 team objective game modes like EVERY OTHER PVP GAME, fewer objectives so teams actually fight over objectives, etc) to solve this issue but zos has shown they have no desire to give us a shred of bg content. Not even 1 map in 5 years.

So sorry, but we have addressed the issue until we are blue in the face and 75+ percent of the bg community has left, as they are tired of waiting on zos.

Freilauftomate

It's like driving a car. For some people every street is a racetrack and others have to get out of the way or get killed. Some people act like sloths in every situation and maybe should take the bus instead. Some people think it's a good place to ride bikes next to each other in their funny looking tights and jerseys. Some people walk their donkeys on the street, and some people like to glue their hands on the street for the climate or whatever.

We only have so much space for streets, so that's probably not going to change anytime soon. But it would be easy to give us enough gamemodes for everyone to enjoy. Whatever we have now just drives everyone away.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

So sorry, but we have addressed the issue until we are blue in the face and 75+ percent of the bg community has left, as they are tired of waiting on zos.

i think your best option is to not cue for individual pug groups. find those other high MMR people through a BG guild (i am a member of one myself) that coordinates 12 man simultaneous group cues. regardless of game type they deathmach which is fine because all 12 of them are on the same page.

to cue for a game type with strangers and then completely ruin their experience is bad for the BG and PvP community.

gariondavey

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

So sorry, but we have addressed the issue until we are blue in the face and 75+ percent of the bg community has left, as they are tired of waiting on zos.

i think your best option is to not cue for individual pug groups. find those other high MMR people through a BG guild (i am a member of one myself) that coordinates 12 man simultaneous group cues. regardless of game type they deathmach which is fine because all 12 of them are on the same page.

to cue for a game type with strangers and then completely ruin their experience is bad for the BG and PvP community.

We do that. All the time. Teams don't get into the same game, queue doesn't work sometimes or you get into a game with 2 dm teams and 1 team of 20k hp pve players who want exp and cut your game short after a 40 minute queue.
If you don't want to sit in queue that long or if there aren't 3 dm teams on, you do solo queue.
And if you are in solo queue, almost everyone wants a fight.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

If you don't want to sit in queue that long or if there aren't 3 dm teams on, you do solo queue.

…and when you solo cue you aren’t playing on a team of 1.

if one person on that team (or even on the field) wants to do obj legitimately, they are treated poorly or simply die repeatedly with no teamwork.

that is not at all what the solo cue is intended for. to usurp it for your own play style only turns would-be BG’ers away completely.

gariondavey

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

If you don't want to sit in queue that long or if there aren't 3 dm teams on, you do solo queue.

…and when you solo cue you aren’t playing on a team of 1.

if one person on that team (or even on the field) wants to do obj legitimately, they are treated poorly or simply die repeatedly with no teamwork.

that is not at all what the solo cue is intended for. to usurp it for your own play style only turns would-be BG’ers away completely.

Dm crowd isn't changing. We have asked zos repeatedly. It's on them.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

Dm crowd isn't changing. We have asked zos repeatedly. It's on them.

the DM crowd (which I have participated in through private tournaments) has the option i mentioned above. it may not be convenient, but it is the only way to get 12 people together that all want to be doing a DM.

it’s not on ZOS when you try to make others play the way you like. they aren’t the ones who have to be continually harangued for trying to do obj. for trying to literally do the thing everyone agrees to do when you cue. it’s a team game.

those actions ruin the BG experience for fellow PvP players.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

as an analogy, if you cue for a random pug vet dungeon and 1 or 2 people are just there to loot or sneak around for chests… eventually the cue will fall apart! everyone has to be on the same page.

you can play however you’d like to play. the problem is when your playing starts to prevent others from playing and enjoying the game as it was intended.

gariondavey

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

Freilauftomate

@gariondavey If you really expected answers from zenimax, i am afraid you are wasting your time here...

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

this mindset is why there is no one playing in PvP, especially BG’s right now.

gariondavey

Freilauftomate wrote: »

@gariondavey If you really expected answers from zenimax, i am afraid you are wasting your time here...

I mean if you read the initial post you'd know I ended up getting the 4 day dm weekend last year reverted to 5 days. Kevin usually responds when questions are asked. He has responded once in this thread already, I was just following up on the last bit of information he hasn't shared yet.

gariondavey

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

this mindset is why there is no one playing in PvP, especially BG’s right now.

That is incorrect, but let's just move on.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

gariondavey wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

this mindset is why there is no one playing in PvP, especially BG’s right now.

That is incorrect, but let's just move on.

Agree to disagree!

Freilauftomate

gariondavey wrote: »

I mean if you read the initial post you'd know I ended up getting the 4 day dm weekend last year reverted to 5 days. Kevin usually responds when questions are asked. He has responded once in this thread already, I was just following up on the last bit of information he hasn't shared yet.

*** hoc ergo propter hoc. Causation and correlation...

I just didn't want you to get your hopes up.

Freilauftomate

Wow, this forum even censors harmless latin words automatically.

And i know they respond sometimes, but getting a real answer is something completely different and very rare.

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The forums are flooded with people complaining about ballgroups and small-scalers, in Cyrodiil, holding up in resource towers and castles to farm kills without any intention of taking the objective. This is almost universally agreed upon to be toxic, trolly, and unsportsmanlike.

Why don't we look at people who do the same thing in BGs the same???

Because of 2 reasons:

1) Unlike Cyrodiil, the strongest team tends to be the one that can hold 2 Relics or a Chaos Ball for the entire game without dying while still getting kills.

You can’t blame those players if they want to farm kills. The fact that Relics and Chaosball apply a heal debuff/DoT/skill limit already puts whoever’s holding them at a higher advantage than those who are not. If your team can’t take away the Relic from someone with all that disadvantage, then your team deserves to be farmed, no offense.

2) You can just leave the match if you don’t want to endure fighting those players. It’s not like you’re going to be stuck in the same campaign and have to play against the “trolls”. Just leave the match, wait 4 minutes, and queue against other people lol.

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

1) Your answer doesn't fit the discussion. You're creating a narrative where OBJ players are creating thread after thread complaining about being farmed for 15 minutes by DMers who have objectives but won't turn them in. The threads have actually been created by DM enthusiasts who complain that after a 20 minute que their game only lasts 5 minutes because somebody "too scared to fight" just caps on them over and over.

And bad players don't "deserve" to be farmed when the game could otherwise be won. What a horrible thing to say.

2) This answer also doesn't satisfy. "Just leave" is literally the #1 response to the Cyrodiil complaints as well, and therefore the parallel remains. You try to differentiate between the two but you fail to acknowledge that someone can also just change campaigns. Without incurring a deserter penalty, I might add. Or, unlike BGs, Cyrodiil is large enough and has enough people in it where you can literally just go to another castle and fight different people.

3) Here's the real reason since you failed to mention it: One is okay because you do it and the other isn't okay because you don't like it.

As to your final comment... I am obviously in favor in having a DM que. But your dissatisfaction with the devs and the game itself really isn't an excuse to treat other players like crap. Next time you're wondering why everybody keeps leaving faster than new players can come... Look no further than yourself. I'm sure new players love hearing that they deserve to be farmed. Better still, to experience it first hand! Best yet, to then come to the forums and see the people that farmed you complaining about their own perceived grievances.

StaticWave

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

this mindset is why there is no one playing in PvP, especially BG’s right now.

Nobody is playing PvP because of horrendous combat balance and server performance issues. It has nothing to do with people’s distaste towards a small crowd of PvPers. Quite frankly, ZOS knows it’s not a problem because it’s there’s always been people who only look for fights since the beginning of the game.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

StaticWave wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

No thanks, we will dm. Now please stop with the deviation from the purpose of the thread, which was to obtain answers from zenimax regarding the decisions they have made which suggest a bias against deathmatch.

this mindset is why there is no one playing in PvP, especially BG’s right now.

Nobody is playing PvP because of horrendous combat balance and server performance issues. It has nothing to do with people’s distaste towards a small crowd of PvPers. Quite frankly, ZOS knows it’s not a problem because it’s there’s always been people who only look for fights since the beginning of the game.

i’m not sure you know the history, but we did have the option to cue for deathmatch only. ZOS got rid of it for a reason.

there will always be a home for people just looking to brawl in IC. BG’s are coordinated team efforts around an objective, which on occasion is to rack up kills. it’s how the BG game is designed.

there are hard to grind achievements associated with more than deathmatches. segregating cues permanently would all but negate the opportunity to grind toward them on any given day. a weekend is great, but never permanently siloed.

the potpourri of random options ensures that players cannot ideally prepare for each mach with the correct gear for the correct match type. this helps create natural weaknesses among teams. one of the many side benefits of the randomized match style.

StaticWave

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You know what would solve it? DM queues lol. We don’t play objectives because we don’t get enough DM matches, so we treat every game as one. You can’t say that we’re “trolly” when the only game mode we enjoy doesn’t even appear as often compared to other game modes.

You are trying to make the game into something it isn’t and belittling the experience for those who are trying to play it for what it is.

I understand your logic, but at its core it is a selfish philosophy. You are playing a team game with rules. If you don’t want to play the game you cue for, don’t cue and allow others to enjoy the game as it exists.

Lol let me remind you that the game used to have 5 separate queues for each game mode, and the majority of the BG community queued for DM. ZOS then combined those queues (which nobody in the BG community asked for) to reduce queue time for non DM matches. Mysteriously, DM matches started appearing less and less.

Look, I don't like playing objectives. I was able to queue specifically for DM in the past. I can't now. Until ZOS reimplements a separate queue for DM, I will continue to treat all game modes as DM. You can't just say we're selfish when ZOS took away a game mode we liked most and then force us to play 4 other game modes we don't enjoy. I can argue that you guys are more selfish because you guys knew that DM received the most queues so you removed it to get more players in other game modes.

StaticWave

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

i’m not sure you know the history, but we did have the option to cue for deathmatch only. ZOS got rid of it for a reason.

there will always be a home for people just looking to brawl in IC. BG’s are coordinated team efforts around an objective, which on occasion is to rack up kills. it’s how the BG game is designed.

ZOS got rid of DM because the majority of BG players queued for DM, leaving the 4 queues very empty. Non DM people started complaining that those 4 queues were empty, so ZOS combined all 5 and made DM appear less frequent. That's pretty selfish if you ask me.

The objective of DM mode is to score most kills. It requires a lot of team efforts to get kills against equally good opponents. Quite frankly, I find that to be more enjoyable than playing against a team with 1 tank and 3 healers healing that 1 tank in Chaos Ball, or a team with 3 speedy players running for flags and avoiding fights. I didn't join BG to play against gimmick builds made for gimmick maps man