Kiyonami wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

Completely agree with everything said. The game really lacks playstyles, for most LA weaving is a meta, the benchmark by which players are judged... And everything would be fine if both categories of players would not be separated because of this. After all, those who successfully use LA weaving think other players are sucks. That's why game needs more playstyles. This will allow more players to be involved in the gameplay. Then the "Elitists" will stop measuring people with DPS numbers (every month more and more often I saw how players are labeled as an outsider because they do not use LA weaving and meta sets and this is a terrible and toxic attitude...)

I've been playing since the beta test. But I don't know how to use LA weaving, and I don't like the whole concept of such a playstyle, it doesn't bring me fun and pleasure (Oh yeah, trying to use weaving with ~300ms ping is already hurting yourself). I really love ESO, but a couple of months ago I stopped playing and uninstalled the game... When the game starts to become work and no longer fun, it's time to stop to keep the brightest and most pleasant memories.

Those who like LA weaving - great, play and enjoy, I'm not asking to take away this feature from the game, but please stop telling other players that they are playing "wrong", saying "go learn" or "delete the game".

[snip] they literally just added a new class for which light weaving is so unimportant the mythic which NERFS YOUR LIGHT ATTACK DAMAGE is BIS.

Drop your false narrative about light attack weaving being so super duper important or that end game players are gate keeping.

I've got some really bad news for you, no one cares how you do your dps.

People only care how much dps you do. ESOLogs trumps dummy parses everytime. If you're being told you're not good enough, it's probably because you don't do enough dps. No one it checking your light attack / skill ratio. they are looking at the dps chart and thinking "maybe that guy would like some advice" and then you're coming back at them all "I PLAY HOW I WANT ELITIST!"

let me give you a hint:



if you're the 8% then you are being carried.
If I was the 8% you'd be damn sure I'd be looking to improve so that 11 other people aren't having to make up for my short comings.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Dealing damage is directly related to playstyle. Either you use a meta build, or you add weaving, or you are among the outsiders. The player does not have the opportunity to play as he wants, no choice of playstyle to play comfortably and at an acceptable effective DPS level.

You say - People only care how much dps you do - that's another problem. Numbers, numbers, numbers... People come to play a game, not to a math class. Dummy parses is another one of the things that separates the players. Players like you will never understand that if, for example, killing the boss for 5-7 minutes longer - I personally don’t make any difference, and it doesn’t matter to me if I deal 15% damage, and someone else 8%, for all the years of the game I never I didn't think about it, it never mattered to me.

I have always believed that the stronger player should help the weaker one. But apparently the personal ego and the thirst for superiority over others won. I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t want to force myself to play by the rules invented by someone, bypassing my moral principles.

i'm pretty new to the game, and the forums for sure, but I've see this several times now.

is there really this large of group of players that demand to have dozens of ways be all but equal in how much damage they do? that have this 'moral superiority' stance on it as well? takes away any sort of getting better at the game in my opinion. there will always be a best way.

from what i've played so far, normal is easy, i could do anything in just looted gear. I looked into some builds, done some veteran content once I got the oakensoul ring and nobody ever asked me what I was wearing, we had success more often than not.

what little i've read and done seems that the oaken ring lets everybody have a foot into the door for all normal and veteran content, which i feel allows for everybody to play the game.

i'm aware there are trials and hard-mode versions of some of the dungeons (that's the endgame, right?) if it is the endgame, i think it's perfectly reasonable that those require some level of compentency and practice to do that content.

maybe my opinion will change as i venture into that content, if i do, but even in just over a month of playing, i've found there are lots of viable playstyles. i found weaving to be easy, 1 button and 1 mouse click per second, but sometimes it's nice to relax and just use oaken.

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

It’s really not the elite players who were calling for nerfs to the HA play style. Here is a huge thread that dealt with the subject (unfortunately, heavily censored and now locked by the company): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

My feelings about that whole affair are summarised below:

- Once upon a time there were quite a lot of people who liked the idea of the 100k DPS HA lightning sorcerer build enough to
- - - buy the High Isle expansion in order to get the Oakensoul ring
- - - farm the mythic item, the Sergeant’s Mail set, the Storm Master set & Slimecraw
- - - spend quite a lot of gold to upgrade their gear to legendary
- - - in many cases also: create a new sorcerer character and level it up or buy a race-change token from ZOS and change their existing sorcerer character’s race to Altmer

- there were also others, who weren’t interested in playing HA themselves (tanks, healers, LA players), but who loved having so many players around - HA players who were active, interested in doing end-game content, and able to pull their weight in both PUGs and organised groups. It revitalised the game. It even allowed some players with disability finally feel included (some HA builds are similar to LI builds (Low-Intensity) that the Guild Wars 2 amazing community designs for players who cannot use highly optimised builds (or who could use them but just prefer to have a chill game). Well done, ZOS!

- so people were happily improving and doing end-game content, great

- only a tiny minority of players weren’t happy about this situation
- - - I have accounts on PS and PC, all ten guild slots filled (one of them mine), my friend list is full, I know literally thousands of ESO players, I regularly interact with literally hundreds of people, and I only personally know two people in game who were against HA builds so do the math

- - - both anti-HA ppl were:
- - - - - - LA DDs who had the ambition to be among the best
- - - - - - but couldn't quite yet pull out the numbers that the best HA DDs were capable of, especially in real content
- - - - - - couldn't yet avoid damage well-enough to stay alive like the best players
- - - - - - even if they wanted to play HA instead of just becoming 130k+ LA DPS gods, they wouldn't be able to, because they didn't want to pay for the then newest expansion necessary to get the Oakensoul ring (they usually wait a year to get access with just their subscriptions)

- some accounts on ZOS's official ESO forums became very vocal about the need to nerf HA builds

- ZOS announced a new expansion (Necrom), with a new class - Arcanist - and nerfs to two HA staples: the Storm Master set and the Empower buff

- many people got very unhappy

- the vocal anti-HA accounts were campaigning hard to praise the nerf and complained that it was too little, just 1-3% DPS loss, and that HA builds with their slow heavy-attacks, didn't deserve such DPS

- HA defenders had their posts heavily censored

- anti-HA accounts were trolling, posting lies, false numbers, and most their posts were left alone

- fast forward to today, the HA DPS loss for optimised end-game groups & on the trial dummy was as predicted by the community (i.e. definitely much much higher than 1-3% LOL)

- the best HA sorcerer on the trial dummy does slightly over 80k DPS instead of over 100k and the difference is even bigger in real content

- so what can you do if you were one of the many people mentioned at start - people who liked the idea of the 100k DPS HA builds?

- fret not, you can just buy the new Necrom expansion, create and level up a new character of the new Arcanist class, get the Oakensoul ring, and instead of using the slow two-second-lasting lightning-heavy-attack channels, just use the new Arcanist's five-second-lasting channels that pierce trough enemies like laser through butter and you will get your 100k+ DPS back! Or get the new mythic and get almost 120k by adding just 2 30s skills to the second bar!

- still not persuaded? U39 is coming, how about a nerf to the lightning staff HAs against multiple targets? By the way, the Arcanist’s beam works great against BOTH single AND multiple targets so it’s literally a drop-in replacement! Come on, you know you want it!

- the house always wins

The two anti-HA friends I mentioned earlier are still not very good as LA DDs, and they definitely do not sound like winners even though the HA play style has been nerfed so they have got what they wanted. Now, they are really unhappy about the Arcanist class and the new mythic amulet that "makes it oh so easy to do unfairly high DPS without light-attack weaving". As with High Isle, they don’t have the expansion, but one of them got the Oakensoul ring ("for the sticker book") but said couldn’t be bothered about trying HA because "it is boring and does less damage than I do on my build now". In the meantime, more copies of Necrom are being sold and it is getting greener and greener in Tamriel

Sarannah wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

**cough** healers **cough** tanks

Plenty of ways to play end game without trying to be the top parse, if that's not your thing.

But also...blaming streamers that you can't get into end game if you refuse to try support is like blaming the Olympics for not being able to compete in swimming when you can't swim but can run very fast. Not everyone can be good at everything. Not to mention that the only content not really accessible to players who are unwilling to do anything except DPS are vet trials and some vet DLC dungeons. You can be pretty entry level and people will take you in normal trials because there are usually a few very high DPS in the runs just looking for gear.

Therefore it is a super small percentage of the game's content, overall, that "requires" a high parse. Why is that even a problem? Some people like to challenge themselves, and there is plenty of other content if you are not one of those people.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

It’s really not the elite players who were calling for nerfs to the HA play style. Here is a huge thread that dealt with the subject (unfortunately, heavily censored and now locked by the company): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

My feelings about that whole affair are summarised below:

- Once upon a time there were quite a lot of people who liked the idea of the 100k DPS HA lightning sorcerer build enough to
- - - buy the High Isle expansion in order to get the Oakensoul ring
- - - farm the mythic item, the Sergeant’s Mail set, the Storm Master set & Slimecraw
- - - spend quite a lot of gold to upgrade their gear to legendary
- - - in many cases also: create a new sorcerer character and level it up or buy a race-change token from ZOS and change their existing sorcerer character’s race to Altmer

- there were also others, who weren’t interested in playing HA themselves (tanks, healers, LA players), but who loved having so many players around - HA players who were active, interested in doing end-game content, and able to pull their weight in both PUGs and organised groups. It revitalised the game. It even allowed some players with disability finally feel included (some HA builds are similar to LI builds (Low-Intensity) that the Guild Wars 2 amazing community designs for players who cannot use highly optimised builds (or who could use them but just prefer to have a chill game). Well done, ZOS!

- so people were happily improving and doing end-game content, great

- only a tiny minority of players weren’t happy about this situation
- - - I have accounts on PS and PC, all ten guild slots filled (one of them mine), my friend list is full, I know literally thousands of ESO players, I regularly interact with literally hundreds of people, and I only personally know two people in game who were against HA builds so do the math

- - - both anti-HA ppl were:
- - - - - - LA DDs who had the ambition to be among the best
- - - - - - but couldn't quite yet pull out the numbers that the best HA DDs were capable of, especially in real content
- - - - - - couldn't yet avoid damage well-enough to stay alive like the best players
- - - - - - even if they wanted to play HA instead of just becoming 130k+ LA DPS gods, they wouldn't be able to, because they didn't want to pay for the then newest expansion necessary to get the Oakensoul ring (they usually wait a year to get access with just their subscriptions)

- some accounts on ZOS's official ESO forums became very vocal about the need to nerf HA builds

- ZOS announced a new expansion (Necrom), with a new class - Arcanist - and nerfs to two HA staples: the Storm Master set and the Empower buff

- many people got very unhappy

- the vocal anti-HA accounts were campaigning hard to praise the nerf and complaint that it was too little, just 1-3% DPS loss, and that HA builds with their slow heavy-attacks, didn't deserve such DPS

- HA defenders had their posts heavily censored

- anti-HA accounts were trolling, posting lies, false numbers, and most their posts were left alone

- fast forward to today, the HA DPS loss for optimised end-game groups & on the trial dummy was as predicted by the community (i.e. definitely much much higher than 1-3% LOL)

- the best HA sorcerer on the trial dummy does slightly over 80k DPS instead of over 100k and the difference is even bigger in real content

- so what can you do if you were one of the many people mentioned at start - people who liked the idea of the 100k DPS HA builds?

- fret not, you can just buy the new Necrom expansion, create and level up a new character of the new Arcanist class, get the Oakensoul ring, and instead of using the slow two-second-lasting lightning-heavy-attack channels, just use the new Arcanist's five-second-lasting channels that pierce trough enemies like laser through butter and you will get your 100k+ DPS back! Or get the new mythic and get almost 120k by adding just 2 30s skills to the second bar!

- still not persuaded? U39 is coming, how about a nerf to the lightning staff HAs against multiple targets? By the way, the Arcanist’s beam works great against BOTH single AND multiple targets so it’s literally a drop-in replacement! Come on, you know you want it!

- the house always wins

The two anti-HA friends I mentioned earlier are still not very good as LA DDs, and they definitely do not sound like winners even though the HA play style has been nerfed so they have got what they wanted. Now, they are really unhappy about the Arcanist class and the new mythic amulet that "makes it oh so easy to do unfairly high DPS without light-attack weaving". As with High Isle, they don’t have the expansion, but one of them got the Oakensoul ring ("for the sticker book") but said couldn’t be bothered about trying HA because "it is boring and does less damage than I do on my build now". In the meantime, more copies of Necrom are being sold and it is getting greener and greener in Tamriel

Hmmmm welp you missed somethin here. You do not need to weave for actual damage for the arc but you do need it for sustain. I was with you right up until the exaggerations although i agree with a fair bit of the sentiment. However- the newest classes will always be played heavily when they are first released. Thats a given. I mean come on dude. Its pretty, its got a fun playstyle, even as a high level vet player i enjoy my arc and no, a newbie player will not get 120k off an arc with the snap of a finger. Thats disingenuous. Ha sorcs were much much easier to use. There is still timing involved with Arcanist. You need a good grasp of the mechs because when beam is used you are slow as molasses and anything you gotta block wrecks your damage so being able to predict mechanicsis what gives you an edge. A decent parse, not too hard. In content though HA is unquestionably easier.

I have all classes and on all my DPS characters did over 120k… including on my arcanist. Rotations and LA "weaving" are infinitely easier on the arcanist. Unlike in case of all the other classes, the LA weaving on the arcanist can be very sloppy and still get you really high numbers. I’m not hating. It’s just a fact. I don’t mind that they are so much easier, the same way I didn’t mind that getting 100k on one HA build was much easier than getting 120-137k on any LA build (before the arcanist).
For the close to 120k arc mentioned by me above, you just swap to the back bar every half a minute and press 1 & 2 (or whatever keys/buttons you set up)… on the front bar you just keep 3 skills up and then keep pressing 1 twice and then 2 for the beam (which means no weaving for 5 seconds lol). Here, you’ve just got between 110-120k, congrats I mean, come on, let’s be real, it’s easy [snip]
On the 100k lightning sorc you had to keep 5 skills up and heavy attack, on the arc described above, you need to keep… 5 skills up, and then add 1 more skill pressed twice in a row, followed by a beam (which is the equivalent of the heavy attack channel, just much better). HA sorcs had to spend most of their time heavy attacking so they were also moving slowly and any block, dodge, or stun before HAs were finished wrecked their damage (which was mentioned in the thread I linked above)… same as arcanists.

Both 1- and 2-bar variants can be set up to be as "tanky" as 1-bar HA builds and I have never had any problems with sustain with the arcanist so that’s not a problem either.

Let’s face it, for the 100k DPS builds, the arcanist is a direct replacement of the lightning heavy-attack sorc before the nerfs.

[edited for profanity bypass]

I didn't expect this to become a HA build debate...

Jierdanit wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

Completely agree with everything said. The game really lacks playstyles, for most LA weaving is a meta, the benchmark by which players are judged... And everything would be fine if both categories of players would not be separated because of this. After all, those who successfully use LA weaving think other players are sucks. That's why game needs more playstyles. This will allow more players to be involved in the gameplay. Then the "Elitists" will stop measuring people with DPS numbers (every month more and more often I saw how players are labeled as an outsider because they do not use LA weaving and meta sets and this is a terrible and toxic attitude...)

I've been playing since the beta test. But I don't know how to use LA weaving, and I don't like the whole concept of such a playstyle, it doesn't bring me fun and pleasure (Oh yeah, trying to use weaving with ~300ms ping is already hurting yourself). I really love ESO, but a couple of months ago I stopped playing and uninstalled the game... When the game starts to become work and no longer fun, it's time to stop to keep the brightest and most pleasant memories.

Those who like LA weaving - great, play and enjoy, I'm not asking to take away this feature from the game, but please stop telling other players that they are playing "wrong", saying "go learn" or "delete the game".

[snip] they literally just added a new class for which light weaving is so unimportant the mythic which NERFS YOUR LIGHT ATTACK DAMAGE is BIS.

Drop your false narrative about light attack weaving being so super duper important or that end game players are gate keeping.

I've got some really bad news for you, no one cares how you do your dps.

People only care how much dps you do. ESOLogs trumps dummy parses everytime. If you're being told you're not good enough, it's probably because you don't do enough dps. No one it checking your light attack / skill ratio. they are looking at the dps chart and thinking "maybe that guy would like some advice" and then you're coming back at them all "I PLAY HOW I WANT ELITIST!"

let me give you a hint:



if you're the 8% then you are being carried.
If I was the 8% you'd be damn sure I'd be looking to improve so that 11 other people aren't having to make up for my short comings.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Dealing damage is directly related to playstyle. Either you use a meta build, or you add weaving, or you are among the outsiders. The player does not have the opportunity to play as he wants, no choice of playstyle to play comfortably and at an acceptable effective DPS level.

You say - People only care how much dps you do - that's another problem. Numbers, numbers, numbers... People come to play a game, not to a math class. Dummy parses is another one of the things that separates the players. Players like you will never understand that if, for example, killing the boss for 5-7 minutes longer - I personally don’t make any difference, and it doesn’t matter to me if I deal 15% damage, and someone else 8%, for all the years of the game I never I didn't think about it, it never mattered to me.

I have always believed that the stronger player should help the weaker one. But apparently the personal ego and the thirst for superiority over others won. I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t want to force myself to play by the rules invented by someone, bypassing my moral principles.

If you dont want to do what is necessary to get to the highest levels of DPS, etc. in the game that is perfectly fine, as long as you dont expect people to still take you into areas where its necessary.

You can do basically all the content in the game without the need for weaving and with a build you like, since most of it is pretty easy.
However if you want to do HM trials and scorepushing, you cant expect people to take you into their group if you provide less than someone else who does run meta builds and is weaving.

You just cant play in a suboptimal way and expect to be able to take part in the areas of the game for which you need to do the best possible DPS.

I'm just saying that the community has formed a stable understanding of the "correct" meta build / playstyle from their point of view that brings maximum DPS and maximum benefit. There are no other variations to match in efficiency, that's what I'm talking about. Let's say I force myself to play by meta standards, I have great DPS, I'm doing well in my role... But I don't like to play in this style, I don't enjoy it... I want to use a different playstyle, and the raid leader he will tell me "no, it will not work, you have become less effective, play like last time in the meta build"

Braffin wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think ESO would actually be better off without some of the streamers and elite players. They are holding the game back by forcing the barswapping LA weaving playstyle upon everyone. If everyone could reach endgame, with any number of playstyles(no more DPS gap), more players would stick around and the endgame would be much more lively. Which would also allow for the endgame to keep growing. Right now noone really flows into the endgame, which makes it hard for players to stick with an MMO. As endgame is where you want to be at as a player, regardless of skilllevel. And if you can't get there, there is no point in playing the game.

This makes it so players only flow out of the game, instead of into the game and endgame. Causing the playerbase to dwindle bit by bit.

And I do agree ZOS should look at PTS criticism more, as that is where they can still change important issues before implementing them on the live servers. Other than that I feel ZOS's communication is alright for an MMO company. (Keep in mind, they have to get greenlit for any communication they do, and there are behind-the-scene things they can't tell us)

There are issues with the game, some even important/major issues. These important/major issues should be fixed ASAP, so the game's foundation will pull even more players in. But ZOS is still releasing quite a bit of content, and are releasing new systems every now and then. So from where I'm sitting, the game looks like it will only get better.

PS: I play through the standalone client.

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

Completely agree with everything said. The game really lacks playstyles, for most LA weaving is a meta, the benchmark by which players are judged... And everything would be fine if both categories of players would not be separated because of this. After all, those who successfully use LA weaving think other players are sucks. That's why game needs more playstyles. This will allow more players to be involved in the gameplay. Then the "Elitists" will stop measuring people with DPS numbers (every month more and more often I saw how players are labeled as an outsider because they do not use LA weaving and meta sets and this is a terrible and toxic attitude...)

I've been playing since the beta test. But I don't know how to use LA weaving, and I don't like the whole concept of such a playstyle, it doesn't bring me fun and pleasure (Oh yeah, trying to use weaving with ~300ms ping is already hurting yourself). I really love ESO, but a couple of months ago I stopped playing and uninstalled the game... When the game starts to become work and no longer fun, it's time to stop to keep the brightest and most pleasant memories.

Those who like LA weaving - great, play and enjoy, I'm not asking to take away this feature from the game, but please stop telling other players that they are playing "wrong", saying "go learn" or "delete the game".

[snip] they literally just added a new class for which light weaving is so unimportant the mythic which NERFS YOUR LIGHT ATTACK DAMAGE is BIS.

Drop your false narrative about light attack weaving being so super duper important or that end game players are gate keeping.

I've got some really bad news for you, no one cares how you do your dps.

People only care how much dps you do. ESOLogs trumps dummy parses everytime. If you're being told you're not good enough, it's probably because you don't do enough dps. No one it checking your light attack / skill ratio. they are looking at the dps chart and thinking "maybe that guy would like some advice" and then you're coming back at them all "I PLAY HOW I WANT ELITIST!"

let me give you a hint:



if you're the 8% then you are being carried.
If I was the 8% you'd be damn sure I'd be looking to improve so that 11 other people aren't having to make up for my short comings.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Dealing damage is directly related to playstyle. Either you use a meta build, or you add weaving, or you are among the outsiders. The player does not have the opportunity to play as he wants, no choice of playstyle to play comfortably and at an acceptable effective DPS level.

You say - People only care how much dps you do - that's another problem. Numbers, numbers, numbers... People come to play a game, not to a math class. Dummy parses is another one of the things that separates the players. Players like you will never understand that if, for example, killing the boss for 5-7 minutes longer - I personally don’t make any difference, and it doesn’t matter to me if I deal 15% damage, and someone else 8%, for all the years of the game I never I didn't think about it, it never mattered to me.

I have always believed that the stronger player should help the weaker one. But apparently the personal ego and the thirst for superiority over others won. I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t want to force myself to play by the rules invented by someone, bypassing my moral principles.

Your problem isn't the game, the numbers or other players, but solely yourself:

"People cone to play a game" you say, but "stronger player should help the weaker one".

That's a contradiction, especially if the "weaker" players aren't unable but simply unwilling to enter content with a proper build because they want to "play as they want".

In reality we all are here for the fun (except the FOMOists, but that are the ranters, which wanna do trifectas without effort, so they can show-off).

Carrying a stubborn know-it-all through engaging content while getting belittled by the carried isn't fun. So these guys won't find groups easily.

Nobody forbids you to do any content you want, but don't expect others to willingly sacrifice their time for you.

Excuse me, but in all the years I've played ESO I've never had a problem. I played as I wanted, and when it was necessary I forced myself to play as others needed (in the end I got tired of it and I stopped playing, but this is not about that).

I meant about "weaker" players - if a player knows the mechanics, fulfills his role, is active, tries his best, but in the end he has 8% and I, for example, 15%, why should I call this player bad? For me personally, this difference is insignificant. But there will always be those who will be dissatisfied even with a 1% difference between the results.

Kiyonami wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

If you dont want to do what is necessary to get to the highest levels of DPS, etc. in the game that is perfectly fine, as long as you dont expect people to still take you into areas where its necessary.

You can do basically all the content in the game without the need for weaving and with a build you like, since most of it is pretty easy.
However if you want to do HM trials and scorepushing, you cant expect people to take you into their group if you provide less than someone else who does run meta builds and is weaving.

You just cant play in a suboptimal way and expect to be able to take part in the areas of the game for which you need to do the best possible DPS.

I'm just saying that the community has formed a stable understanding of the "correct" meta build / playstyle from their point of view that brings maximum DPS and maximum benefit. There are no other variations to match in efficiency, that's what I'm talking about. Let's say I force myself to play by meta standards, I have great DPS, I'm doing well in my role... But I don't like to play in this style, I don't enjoy it... I want to use a different playstyle, and the raid leader he will tell me "no, it will not work, you have become less effective, play like last time in the meta build"

If a build brings the maximum DPS and benefit then it IS the "correct" meta build if you need the highest DPS.
If you knowingly want to play a way that is less effective, the raid leader absolutely has the right to tell you that you need to switch back.
It is absolutely selfish to make the group take longer for everything, because you dont feel like playing the best way (especially if you would be able to do so).

Kiyonami wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Your problem isn't the game, the numbers or other players, but solely yourself:

"People cone to play a game" you say, but "stronger player should help the weaker one".

That's a contradiction, especially if the "weaker" players aren't unable but simply unwilling to enter content with a proper build because they want to "play as they want".

In reality we all are here for the fun (except the FOMOists, but that are the ranters, which wanna do trifectas without effort, so they can show-off).

Carrying a stubborn know-it-all through engaging content while getting belittled by the carried isn't fun. So these guys won't find groups easily.

Nobody forbids you to do any content you want, but don't expect others to willingly sacrifice their time for you.

Excuse me, but in all the years I've played ESO I've never had a problem. I played as I wanted, and when it was necessary I forced myself to play as others needed (in the end I got tired of it and I stopped playing, but this is not about that).

I meant about "weaker" players - if a player knows the mechanics, fulfills his role, is active, tries his best, but in the end he has 8% and I, for example, 15%, why should I call this player bad? For me personally, this difference is insignificant. But there will always be those who will be dissatisfied even with a 1% difference between the results.

if 1 player does 8% of the groups damage and another does 15% of the groups damage, then the first player is basically only half as effective as the second one.
Meaning that if you would have a full group of people with the DPS of player 1 they would take nearly twice as long as a group full of people with the second players DPS for the same content.

That is an absolutely huge difference.

Jierdanit wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

If you dont want to do what is necessary to get to the highest levels of DPS, etc. in the game that is perfectly fine, as long as you dont expect people to still take you into areas where its necessary.

You can do basically all the content in the game without the need for weaving and with a build you like, since most of it is pretty easy.
However if you want to do HM trials and scorepushing, you cant expect people to take you into their group if you provide less than someone else who does run meta builds and is weaving.

You just cant play in a suboptimal way and expect to be able to take part in the areas of the game for which you need to do the best possible DPS.

I'm just saying that the community has formed a stable understanding of the "correct" meta build / playstyle from their point of view that brings maximum DPS and maximum benefit. There are no other variations to match in efficiency, that's what I'm talking about. Let's say I force myself to play by meta standards, I have great DPS, I'm doing well in my role... But I don't like to play in this style, I don't enjoy it... I want to use a different playstyle, and the raid leader he will tell me "no, it will not work, you have become less effective, play like last time in the meta build"

If a build brings the maximum DPS and benefit then it IS the "correct" meta build if you need the highest DPS.
If you knowingly want to play a way that is less effective, the raid leader absolutely has the right to tell you that you need to switch back.
It is absolutely selfish to make the group take longer for everything, because you dont feel like playing the best way (especially if you would be able to do so).

Kiyonami wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Your problem isn't the game, the numbers or other players, but solely yourself:

"People cone to play a game" you say, but "stronger player should help the weaker one".

That's a contradiction, especially if the "weaker" players aren't unable but simply unwilling to enter content with a proper build because they want to "play as they want".

In reality we all are here for the fun (except the FOMOists, but that are the ranters, which wanna do trifectas without effort, so they can show-off).

Carrying a stubborn know-it-all through engaging content while getting belittled by the carried isn't fun. So these guys won't find groups easily.

Nobody forbids you to do any content you want, but don't expect others to willingly sacrifice their time for you.

Excuse me, but in all the years I've played ESO I've never had a problem. I played as I wanted, and when it was necessary I forced myself to play as others needed (in the end I got tired of it and I stopped playing, but this is not about that).

I meant about "weaker" players - if a player knows the mechanics, fulfills his role, is active, tries his best, but in the end he has 8% and I, for example, 15%, why should I call this player bad? For me personally, this difference is insignificant. But there will always be those who will be dissatisfied even with a 1% difference between the results.

if 1 player does 8% of the groups damage and another does 15% of the groups damage, then the first player is basically only half as effective as the second one.
Meaning that if you would have a full group of people with the DPS of player 1 they would take nearly twice as long as a group full of people with the second players DPS for the same content.

That is an absolutely huge difference.

"Hes time is priceless and hands are made from gold"

Thanks God, there is not a lot of that kind. Adequate raid guilds make dps treshhold and if you hit that nobody cares how you do it, do you use meta or non-meta or whatever. And then there is just different content type, where you have access with your dps thats all. Key difference here is that nobody pushes you to do something you don't want to.

Kiyonami wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

If a build brings the maximum DPS and benefit then it IS the "correct" meta build if you need the highest DPS.
If you knowingly want to play a way that is less effective, the raid leader absolutely has the right to tell you that you need to switch back.
It is absolutely selfish to make the group take longer for everything, because you dont feel like playing the best way (especially if you would be able to do so).

Technically, you are correct, and even if I disagree with you, I have to agree. There is no choice, either you match the "correct" meta build, or you don't play, it's simple. I chose not to play, I got tired of matching day after day, year after year.

Jierdanit wrote: »

if 1 player does 8% of the groups damage and another does 15% of the groups damage, then the first player is basically only half as effective as the second one.
Meaning that if you would have a full group of people with the DPS of player 1 they would take nearly twice as long as a group full of people with the second players DPS for the same content.

That is an absolutely huge difference.

For you? Yes, huge difference. For me? there is no difference 10 minutes or 20, Personally never worried about that. This is a game, and spending 2 times more time - "sky will not fall down".

In the end, I will say, let everyone do as he wants. I will stick to my opinion, and I will always be flexible to the players around me, I hope they will be the same.

sorry, this is just wrong. in the dps chart i posted both sorcs were running exactly the same build (HA sorc if that matters)

there are only small % between the meta and adjacent builds, the biggest difference between high dps players and low dps players is ability. not the ability to hit perfect weaving, but to target the right target, to avoid unnecessary damage, to hold ult when it's the right thing to do and drop their ult for maximum effect.

That's why esologs always, Always trumps a dummy parse. I've seen mid tier dummy parse players top the dps chart because they understand the fight and are always doing exactly what they should be doing while some 120k+ dummy *** is always standing in red and dropping their ult just as the boss hits a mechanic wasting their burst.

I lead a casual trials guild, but I can absolutely tell you when it comes to doing content your group has been working on for weeks or months your slow dps matters. I don't tell people what builds to run, but I do insist they bring whatever they feel does the most dps. If someone rocked up week after week in some RP build because they liked the special effects I would ask them to fix it or move to backup. It's disrespectful of the other 11 people. It's insulting to everyone else who is trying their best to do their best while someone else is just faffing around.

Think of it this way, trials are a team sport. Normal trials or pugs are literally just casual fun, do whatever makes you happy,
however any regular group should rightfully expect everyone to show up for practise and to play their best in the match.
anything less is just being selfish.

If you want to be in the real competition? if you want to represent state, or country, then you damn well better bring your A game and expect a word from the coach if you're slacking or making rookie mistakes.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Kiyonami wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

If a build brings the maximum DPS and benefit then it IS the "correct" meta build if you need the highest DPS.
If you knowingly want to play a way that is less effective, the raid leader absolutely has the right to tell you that you need to switch back.
It is absolutely selfish to make the group take longer for everything, because you dont feel like playing the best way (especially if you would be able to do so).

Technically, you are correct, and even if I disagree with you, I have to agree. There is no choice, either you match the "correct" meta build, or you don't play, it's simple. I chose not to play, I got tired of matching day after day, year after year.

Jierdanit wrote: »

if 1 player does 8% of the groups damage and another does 15% of the groups damage, then the first player is basically only half as effective as the second one.
Meaning that if you would have a full group of people with the DPS of player 1 they would take nearly twice as long as a group full of people with the second players DPS for the same content.

That is an absolutely huge difference.

For you? Yes, huge difference. For me? there is no difference 10 minutes or 20, Personally never worried about that. This is a game, and spending 2 times more time - "sky will not fall down".

In the end, I will say, let everyone do as he wants. I will stick to my opinion, and I will always be flexible to the players around me, I hope they will be the same.

sorry, this is just wrong. in the dps chart i posted both sorcs were running exactly the same build (HA sorc if that matters)

there are only small % between the meta and adjacent builds, the biggest difference between high dps players and low dps players is ability. not the ability to hit perfect weaving, but to target the right target, to avoid unnecessary damage, to hold ult when it's the right thing to do and drop their ult for maximum effect.

That's why esologs always, Always trumps a dummy parse. I've seen mid tier dummy parse players top the dps chart because they understand the fight and are always doing exactly what they should be doing while some 120k+ dummy *** is always standing in red and dropping their ult just as the boss hits a mechanic wasting their burst.

I lead a casual trials guild, but I can absolutely tell you when it comes to doing content your group has been working on for weeks or months your slow dps matters. I don't tell people what builds to run, but I do insist they bring whatever they feel does the most dps. If someone rocked up week after week in some RP build because they liked the special effects I would ask them to fix it or move to backup. It's disrespectful of the other 11 people. It's insulting to everyone else who is trying their best to do their best while someone else is just faffing around.

Think of it this way, trials are a team sport. Normal trials or pugs are literally just casual fun, do whatever makes you happy,
however any regular group should rightfully expect everyone to show up for practise and to play their best in the match.
anything less is just being selfish.

If you want to be in the real competition? if you want to represent state, or country, then you damn well better bring your A game and expect a word from the coach if you're slacking or making rookie mistakes.

Not sure what y'all are used to but for progs we require very solid povs regardless of dps. So no we do not have parse monkey's, you hit high numbers AND are able to play mechs. You are also typically required to submit weekly povs or whenever your lead asks for it. If you have issues with one or the other we will help you get there but don't expect to walk into a db with 80k because you know the mechanics well. There are minimums you must meet and because you are on a time line. It doesnt fly. Most trial hms, you can feasibly take 75-80k dps through successfully but understand that whatever your numbers on the dummy your looking a drop of 10-15k depending on support uptime. Xs for example 80k simply wont cut it no matter how good you are at mechs.

depends what you're progging. i've seen vMoL progs in 2023.

when you break it down a prog group is just a group of people working at completing something they can't complete over a period of time. it doesn't matter what you're progging, the point is progression.

The group cannot complete something and they are attempting to improve so that they can complete it.

By definition this means everyone needs to do the very best they can so that the group can step up and do the thing. If someone is intentionally doing less than their best because they are anti-meta or something then they are wilfully handicapping the group for their own selfish reasons. This doesn't mean you have to run BiS or meta cookie cutter, but it does mean you better put that meme build to bed and get serious.

obviously there are different requirements for different progs. a simple example is that if you haven't done vSS HM then you shouldn't be asking to join a god slayer prog.
if your vSS HM clear was a paid carry, then you're also not ready.
minimum parse requirements are set by the requirements of the content.

Aka_ wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude here, but there are plenty of threads out there regarding trials and parsing. This post was not made to discuss mechanics, progging, builds, or parsing...

I agree, but to be fair the last few updates, particularly U39 with the change to destruction staff passives have had an immediate affect on the PvE community.

This has way more impact to me than the bug fixes, since I really don't do questing these days because I find overland content so utterly lacking in challenge that it's basically a walking simulator.

This is why you accidentally got a discussion about HA builds, oakensorc got nerfed in it's AOE damage so drastically that the playstyle is mostly dead, very much replaced by the arcanist.

To track that back to whatever is going on in ZoS land it very much feels like they tested out some ideas for arcanist with the oakensorc builds, established it was a popular play style, then gifted it to arcanist and nerfed oakensorc.

A less cynical person might just see this as balancing the oakensorc playstyle so it's less overwhelming in certain content like vAS+2.
But as someone who actually cares about the end game community, I saw a lot of interest in trials from people who are put off by complex rotations with the oakensoul builds which has now dropped off since it's no longer as viable and it really annoys me to see people blaming it on "elitists" when no one i know had any beef with it and mostly saw HA builds as a positive.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Aka_ wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude here, but there are plenty of threads out there regarding trials and parsing. This post was not made to discuss mechanics, progging, builds, or parsing...

I agree, but to be fair the last few updates, particularly U39 with the change to destruction staff passives have had an immediate affect on the PvE community.

This has way more impact to me than the bug fixes, since I really don't do questing these days because I find overland content so utterly lacking in challenge that it's basically a walking simulator.

This is why you accidentally got a discussion about HA builds, oakensorc got nerfed in it's AOE damage so drastically that the playstyle is mostly dead, very much replaced by the arcanist.

To track that back to whatever is going on in ZoS land it very much feels like they tested out some ideas for arcanist with the oakensorc builds, established it was a popular play style, then gifted it to arcanist and nerfed oakensorc.

A less cynical person might just see this as balancing the oakensorc playstyle so it's less overwhelming in certain content like vAS+2.
But as someone who actually cares about the end game community, I saw a lot of interest in trials from people who are put off by complex rotations with the oakensoul builds which has now dropped off since it's no longer as viable and it really annoys me to see people blaming it on "elitists" when no one i know had any beef with it and mostly saw HA builds as a positive.

This.

Kiyonami wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

If a build brings the maximum DPS and benefit then it IS the "correct" meta build if you need the highest DPS.
If you knowingly want to play a way that is less effective, the raid leader absolutely has the right to tell you that you need to switch back.
It is absolutely selfish to make the group take longer for everything, because you dont feel like playing the best way (especially if you would be able to do so).

Technically, you are correct, and even if I disagree with you, I have to agree. There is no choice, either you match the "correct" meta build, or you don't play, it's simple. I chose not to play, I got tired of matching day after day, year after year.

Jierdanit wrote: »

if 1 player does 8% of the groups damage and another does 15% of the groups damage, then the first player is basically only half as effective as the second one.
Meaning that if you would have a full group of people with the DPS of player 1 they would take nearly twice as long as a group full of people with the second players DPS for the same content.

That is an absolutely huge difference.

For you? Yes, huge difference. For me? there is no difference 10 minutes or 20, Personally never worried about that. This is a game, and spending 2 times more time - "sky will not fall down".

In the end, I will say, let everyone do as they wants. I will stick to my opinion, and I will always be flexible to the players around me, I hope they will be the same.

I understand what you are saying and I wholeheartedly support the idea that there should be more meta play styles than just the current two-bar LA weaving meta. That would revive the end game community and the wave effect of that would actually revive the whole game. Unfortunately, ZOS’s actions suggest that decision makers lack vision and are only interested in the short-term profiteering / milking the cow they inherited from its creators.

As for the DPS and completion time differences you mentioned, my experience taught me that it’s not just a question of saving time. Not only is it crucial to maximise DPS in score-pushing groups but even in "normal" groups that DPS difference may result in much more than just longer completion times. It may make groups fail to complete the run at all. Even in older runs, like for example Sunspire, higher DPS increases the probability of completion. And I’m not even talking about trifectas. Look at Lokke for example - if it takes the group too long to kill attros, the probability of failure increases. If it takes longer to kill the boss, there are more mechanics to deal with and the probability of human error that may lead to a wipe increases. Same for Yolna of course. Slower DPS = more waves of attros to deal with which, again, increases the probability of tanks making a mistake (and we all make mistakes, even the best, especially if we get tired because of prolonged fights), more lava pools which make it difficult to finish, more chances for attros to explode and kill half of the group. Same for the last one. Low DPS in the portals means instant wipes. If you send best DDs into the portals then it makes it more difficult for the rest to kill adds (which are more dangerous than the boss), and forget about pushing the boss to skip the next portal if you have low DPS. Even simple things like getting a speed run may become impossible for a given group when some of your team mates have low DPS. And it’s just Sunspire, an old trial that everyone knows very well, with lower requirements than the new ones.

So yeah, lower DPS doesn’t necessarily mean just longer completion times. It may also cause groups to fail to complete at all. If ZOS focused on innovating and making the game better instead of maximising short-term gains & the crown store, the game could offer many different meta play styles instead of forcing everyone who doesn’t want to be a burden for their group into playing a two-bar la-weaving meta (which I personally like, but I know many who hate it, I recognise that it’s a major obstacle for the majority of ESO players to get into end-game content… plus it’s always good to train one’s brain in a variety of ways, become more versatile… and it’s good to have different options for different days, depending on one’s mood… and there are only so many tank and healer slots available so having multiple options for what kind of a DD you will play today is good… and no, there is no real difference between classes and different weapons in ESO - they are all the same: weave, recast abilities as they expire… the HA meta was slightly different which was refreshing (but only slightly))

I have been a consistent voice here for improvements to the werewolf playstyle and in my experience what OP is saying is easily the most frustrating thing about this company and this game: communication is nearly non-existent and the changes we do get more often than not seem to either completely miss the point or address things that nobody was having issues with in the first place (PTE, anyone?).

I see it in my threads where I've called out and I see it in other threads, too. This has to change for the longevity of the game and if it doesn't--if communication doesn't improve and changes the company makes don't address the pain points raised by the players--then we'll continue to see numbers atrophy.

I started playing during the beta. It was such a garbage fire that I swore off the game for years despite a love for TES games in general. When I came back it had improved tremendously; now it feels like it's slowly backsliding into that position that caused me to leave so early on. This is a good product. Don't let it die again.