Nerfing a skill line before fixing the skills?

Lorgren_Benirus · May 2014

Good, vampires needed fixing as that was ridiculous. Of course the OP vampire player would whine here, what else is there to be expected? Not to mention that seeing how the WW is pretty much pointless, not comparable to vampire and isn't getting any boost or fixes yet (heck WW's even got reduction on their skills with last patches, as if they needed to be any more worthless then they already were), your cries about "vampire nerf" - which were much needed - fall on deaf ears. No-one cares. Well, except the other vamps who were reaping the (bugged) rewards.

Phinix1 · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

In one of my guilds we have max people in the guild...that's 500 people...only 20 of them actually pvp. Why should PVE be penalized for the poor choices of a few?

Wish I could hit agree more than once.

davidhorstub17_ESO · May 2014

i unsubbed today just because this is a clear sign the developers are understaffed and have no idea how to handle this project.

nbs quitting everyday because the half the class skills are broken with no changes in sight, vamps running wild for weeks with their ultimates (other games would have hotfixed that *** immediately), and instead of just disabling vampire ults till a later patch and saying sorry we messed up they go and completely destroy the entire skill line by VASTLY increasing the cost of everything not just swarm, 500 mana for a drain that works 1/10 the time yeah no thanks, all the while the vampire passives are still insanely bugged and broken on every loading screen.

to top it off, they didnt even give us free skill point respecs out of the line or a free cure, nope go pay 25,000 gold to get your points back because dropping vampirism doesnt give you back your skill point investment. what mmo makes HUGE sweeping changes to an ability like elusive mist and doesnt give you your point back to spend elsewhere if you want? none that i have ever played.

ive had it, a dozen re-logs everyday, locked loading screen in cyro while trying to res and cant log back into my character for hours on end, buggy skills and quests and passives, the tooltips ugh dont get me started on that garbage. instant break a nb stun and i get rooted permanently to the ground well better relog AGAIN, and now im getting hit by invisible mobs when i zone into dungeons. yet patch notes are just a laundry lists of nerfs with no real sign of better days ahead.

i put up with the "its just launch they are never smooth", well launch is over, we are a month in and its looking amateur hour in eso land. the game was worth $60, thanks for the pretty graphics and cool dungeons (when they worked), but to pay a sub for broken content and to be treated like this by the developers just isnt worth it, it should have been in beta for another year to get this crap sorted.

Ako · May 2014

Zarec wrote: »

In one of my guilds we have max people in the guild...that's 500 people...only 20 of them actually pvp. Why should PVE be penalized for the poor choices of a few?

Because an mmo only really adds two things over other types of rpg; being able to play with other players and being able to play against other players.

Both of these interactions are of equal importance and any developer looking to create a balanced game [edit: once they have decided pvp will be included] must take both into account when considering design choices and when balancing/rebalancing skills and skill interaction.

Aci · May 2014

I think the whole vampire / werewolf thing was poorly introduced. It could have been something great, even a big part of an addon. Outlaw like, faction in factions. But as is was it was more or less a tool for abusers in pvp (and i wouldnt wonder if this abuse had happened in pve, too).

I dont know if vampirism is plain useless or not in the current state, but im glad that this pvp Cullen army has been stopped. Period.

Good news for those who just want to play a vampire for fun: Some sort "rpg-er" will leave the blood fiend spots when they realize prices for a bite drop to nowhere. They will probably even reset their points and cure it because these guys are no longer uber in pvp. Poor them!

ralurielb16_ESO · May 2014

I have 2 chars (vet 7 & 45), neither are Vamps or WW and never will be.

I agree with the OP.

How can you possibly balance skills unless they are fixed?? That's right, you can't. Nerfing something before it is fixed is just insulting and gives the impression the designers don't know what they are doing.

Adopting this kind of 'balancing' policy potentially affects everybody not just who they hit at he time. How long is it before people whine too much about a skill you really enjoy and it gets thoughtlessly nerfed?

WilliamTee · May 2014

@ChairGraveyard‌ @Trenith‌ @concobar‌

Are vampires still ruining pvp? No.

Thus it is 'fixed'.

They're working on the rest, including anything that this fix has subsequently broken.

blackwolf7 · May 2014

No matter what class you are, a pro pvper will always ruin a scrub's pvp. Anyway were not talking about that anymore. Clearly majority of the pvpers in game doesnt know how to counter simple mechanics that why vamps got nerfed.

The point is they should also fix the bug passive instead of just placing down the nerf. They couldve hit two birds with 1 stone.

dslendersb16_ESO · May 2014

jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »

Anzaman wrote: »

They should have first fixed the Vampire and nerf'd afterwards.

So, what do I have now? My vampires power got heavily reduced, but I still need to relog after every single death. I still need to drop from Stage 4 to Stage 3 after changing zone.

So every player who wasn't a Vampire had to have 20+ people to kill a single Vampire, right?

So much selfishness.

Or one person who knows the tactics to defeat a vampire...

concobar · May 2014

WilliamTee wrote: »

@ChairGraveyard‌ @Trenith‌ @concobar‌

Are vampires still ruining pvp? No.

Thus it is 'fixed'.

They're working on the rest, including anything that this fix has subsequently broken.

Are you seriously arguing that mist form was ruining PvP?

htoncic · May 2014

WilliamTee wrote: »

@ChairGraveyard‌ @Trenith‌ @concobar‌

Are vampires still ruining pvp? No.

Thus it is 'fixed'.

They're working on the rest, including anything that this fix has subsequently broken.

Were vampires ever ruining PvP? No.

Thus it didn't need to be 'fixed'.

vaxure · May 2014

blackwolf7 wrote: »

vaxure wrote: »

How is it people don't understand the concept of nurf before the fix? This was obviously something that needed to be implemented quickly because of the extreme imbalance in pvp. more changes will be coming to fix the skill line but they were not ready yet. It's a pretty simple concept really. (btw i'm NB Vamp if it matters)

Ehhh? Patch 1.1 says they are indeed ready for deployment. So there is no reason to delay the implementation of it.

They already nerf the class by changing the vampire skill tree. What's their excuse of not applying the patch that fixes it at the same time

Patch 1.1 is on the test server, it's being tested, thus like i said it wasn't ready yet.

Morbus2 · May 2014

dslendersb16_ESO wrote: »

jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »

Anzaman wrote: »

They should have first fixed the Vampire and nerf'd afterwards.

So, what do I have now? My vampires power got heavily reduced, but I still need to relog after every single death. I still need to drop from Stage 4 to Stage 3 after changing zone.

So every player who wasn't a Vampire had to have 20+ people to kill a single Vampire, right?

So much selfishness.

Or one person who knows the tactics to defeat a vampire...

Hush now, that makes sense, and we know sense has no place here.

WilliamTee · May 2014

@concobar‌ @htoncic‌

So... You're saying this is the game working completely as intended?

youtube.com/watch?v=Ucmjldufa6U

Anzaman · May 2014

WilliamTee wrote: »

So... You're saying this is the game working completely as intended?

youtube.com/watch?v=Ucmjldufa6U

Not all vampires "abused" the ultimate reduction stacking.

Now even those who didn't do so, suffer because of them.

WilliamTee · May 2014

Anzaman wrote: »

Not all vampires "abused" the ultimate reduction stacking.

Now even those who didn't do so, suffer because of them.

And I have every faith that these issues will be subsequently addressed. Along with Nightblade bugs and the myriad of other problems across the breadth of the game.

However, this was one of the most embarrassing bugs so far from the perspective of the developers.

htoncic · May 2014

WilliamTee wrote: »

@concobar‌ @htoncic‌

So... You're saying this is the game working completely as intended?

youtube.com/watch?v=Ucmjldufa6U

Aww, hell no. It's just that the problem was never with the vamps. It was with ulti cost reduction stacking. And that's still here. Therefore, problem not solved and vamp is crap. So we're now worse off than before.

natedipaolob14_ESO · May 2014

I have read every comment in this post and all you dumb players whining and complaining about OP vampires need to learn how to play this game. Use the Fighters Guild skill line and get off the forums so the devs can focus on the real problems in this game and not get side tracked by wankers on the forums who don't want to use all the skill lines available to them. Thank you and have a nice day

BTW: I slay vampires and you can too if you got off the forums and learned how to play the game

Zershar_Vemod · May 2014

jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »

Amazing how people are trying to justify the power of a Vampire. Simply put, it was ruining game play for too many people in Cyrodiil, so you get to deal with not being a God anymore.

When the strength of something literally ruins the experience for large sums of people, it is a terrible mechanic and needs to get fixed. The bugs aren't as big of a deal because you can pick other skills, or simply not be a Vampire.

To all you Vampire whiners, be thankful you aren't playing a NB. And hey, most of you are DKs with Sword & Shield, so you are still unjustifiably powerful. (Sorry for all of the assumptions but I am probably right)

I'm a NB Vampire, I have never had the abusive power that DKs and Sorcs have which caused all this crap in the first place. Vampire skill line did not need a nerf, what we needed was a default minimum ult cost.

And assumptions do not equal right, thinking that way will never end well.

ShadowOfOblivion · May 2014

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »

Amazing how people are trying to justify the power of a Vampire. Simply put, it was ruining game play for too many people in Cyrodiil, so you get to deal with not being a God anymore.

When the strength of something literally ruins the experience for large sums of people, it is a terrible mechanic and needs to get fixed. The bugs aren't as big of a deal because you can pick other skills, or simply not be a Vampire.

To all you Vampire whiners, be thankful you aren't playing a NB. And hey, most of you are DKs with Sword & Shield, so you are still unjustifiably powerful. (Sorry for all of the assumptions but I am probably right)

I'm a NB Vampire, I have never had the abusive power that DKs and Sorcs have which caused all this crap in the first place. Vampire skill line did not need a nerf, what we needed was a default minimum ult cost.

And assumptions do not equal right, thinking that way will never end well.

Let me just state AGAIN that DKs DO NOT HAVE cost reductions!!! This missinformation going around must stop.

DKs have a way to generate 2Ult per cast. At the moment for me the lowest cost for such cast is 280 magica (I have no magica / % cost reduction). That said if you can stack reductions to the point where your ult costs almost 0 Ult this still lets you spam it.

The underlying problem IS with cost reduction stack without any kind of limits. Hard cap at 50 or 60% and bring back the vamps abilities cost reduction to 60% and see how they are same as they are now just not that much underpowered

neocomab16_ESO · May 2014

LunaRae wrote: »

I'm not a vampire, but I can speak on behalf of night blades (and I'm sure others can speak on behalf of other classes) but overall lots of class abilities need fixing. Just because you got the nerf stick doesn't entitle vampires to receive ability fixes prior to class abilities. This whole conversation wouldn't even take place if Zeni would just fix every ability so it worked as it should. I share your pain in broken abilities, but don't direct your entitlement to other players.

Nobody wants prior fixes ...well not me at least. The fact that pisses people off is that the nerf comes but the fixes come in two weeks or so. And this leads to questioning ZOs decision making.

dobrt · May 2014

Just be patient.....it's a new game.....give Zenimax time to fix everything.

Just think....you have paid $60-90 for the game, and it's been approx. 3 months (including closed and open betas) and there are still many issues which need repair. I believe all you should wait at least1 year and another $180.00 in subscription before you get upset like the ones who have decided not to subscribe. At the one year point those that still love the game can scoff at the ones who have had enough and left, and then wait another year and another $180.00 for things to improve.

But don't worry paying $240-370 for the first year, for an "almost" finished MMO, is the norm....isn't it?

Glurin · May 2014

dobrt wrote: »

But don't worry paying $240-370 for the first year, for an "almost" finished MMO, is the norm....isn't it?

Actually, yes, it largely is. Most MMOs aren't polished to a fine sheen until well after release.

Zethrion · May 2014

Well first of all... all you need to do is to hit a Vamp with a stun effect to *** it down... then nuke it... its dead... yes i am playing both vamp and none vamp...

2. Dispel magic works against the vamp also....
3. Dont stand still and close together!!! if u dont do any of the 2 things above, the standing still will kill you...not the vamp...
4. do the things above and apply fire or fighter guild abilities ...
5. Use fighter guild abilities against him, it sucks to have abilities u dont like, but thats a req. if u want to have the edge, in theses kind of situations..
6. the mist dont save them against the Stun effect.. or dispel magic...
7. Learn your strength and weakness and try to apply them against your enemies

lastly even if u dont get the super damage from sliverbolt you still get the Knockdown on vamps/WW

Mist minus is, that it is a channel, and stop you from using anything else, that is not toggle before, with a knockdown/dispel or move out of aoe the person is ***...

Vamps dont instant gibs you, so its up to you react on them, Magelight helps stopping them from approaching you...

Here is the guide to kill vamps, now go own them even more, now they also been Nerf to death... or with the nerf just stand still and dont use skill and still win....

My last Ramble here is, that it makes no senses to Nerf anything this severe, until the class balance patch, and all the skill Fixes. Since the way things are now, is not a clear representation, of what it will be like.... Doing this way will make them have to do "hot fixes" over and over instead of a big fix with small changes....

rorcusb16_ESO · May 2014

davidhorstub17_ESO wrote: »

i unsubbed today just because this is a clear sign the developers are understaffed and have no idea how to handle this project.

nbs quitting everyday because the half the class skills are broken with no changes in sight, vamps running wild for weeks with their ultimates (other games would have hotfixed that *** immediately), and instead of just disabling vampire ults till a later patch and saying sorry we messed up they go and completely destroy the entire skill line by VASTLY increasing the cost of everything not just swarm, 500 mana for a drain that works 1/10 the time yeah no thanks, all the while the vampire passives are still insanely bugged and broken on every loading screen.

to top it off, they didnt even give us free skill point respecs out of the line or a free cure, nope go pay 25,000 gold to get your points back because dropping vampirism doesnt give you back your skill point investment. what mmo makes HUGE sweeping changes to an ability like elusive mist and doesnt give you your point back to spend elsewhere if you want? none that i have ever played.

This..

I have no problem with them fixing the major bug of batswarm ult cost stacking with armour sets etc.. , but to wreck an entire skill line just for the sake of PVP balance doesn't bode well for a game that is 75% PVE focused.

Did they remove all the vet10's running around with duped dreugh wax legendary armour and weapons ?? Nope!

I would have liked to have at least been refunded the skill points like they did with the other two skill lines adjusted this patch, so I could at least make the decision to continue as a PVE Vamp (didn't really effect me too much as the 60% ultimate reduction has never applied due to the zone'in bug and I had Storm At + Soul burst as my two ultimates)

I don't regret the the £90 cost of the retail Imperial Edition (maybe a little) as I have more /played time than 4 single player games combined so I can safely say I got my moneys worth playing to Vet 3. but sadly like the person above I also have decided to cancel the 6 month sub I had planned on until I see where they go with continued "Adjustments"

lindechene · May 2014

Combat & Gameplay
Vampire
Fixed an issue with the ability Bat Swarm so it will no longer stack with itself. It will instead refresh if re-cast.
Reduced the cost reduction per stage of vampire abilities.
Reduced the movement speed bonus of the ability Mist Form.

My "Stage 4 Vampirism" tooltip now reads the following:

- Your health regenerates 75% slower
- You take 50% more damage from fire attacks.
- You vampirism abilites cost 21% less to cast.

How is that now balanced in any way? The reward for taking such drastic health reduction was that stage 4 vampires were able to compensate with their drain ability.

- - -
-
I regarded playing as a vampire as a high risk high reward situation.

If it is not possible to give the players massively reduced abilites cost at stage 4 maybe this could be compensated by better fire resistance as a stage 4 vampire.

At least that way in PVE players would have a choice to either have a smaller punishment in health regeneration (play as stage 1 vampire) or a smaller punishment in fire resistance (play as stage 4 vampire).

Suggestion:
Stage 1:
- You take 50% more damage from fire attacks.

Stage 2:
- You take 40% more damage from fire attacks.

Stage 3:
- You take 30% more damage from fire attacks.

Stage 4:
- Your health regenerates 75% slower.
- You take 20% more damage from fire attacks.
- Your vampirism abilites cost 21% to cast.

ChairGraveyard · May 2014

Laura wrote: »

there is still plenty of reason to be a vampire in PvE. the ultimate is still great. There just isn't enough to make people feel like they HAVE to be a vampire.

Translation, "They didn't fix Bat Swarm spam, so if you like abusing Bat Swarm you're still good to go. If you are a PvE vampire or only used Drain/Mist Form - well screw you, I got mine!".

And for the record, the 1.0.7 nerf patch also broke Elusive Mist - it now gives 0% speed boost, not 30%.

Glurin · May 2014

Peterkorntvedb16_ESO wrote: »

Well first of all... all you need to do is to hit a Vamp with a stun effect to *** it down... then nuke it... its dead... yes i am playing both vamp and none vamp...

2. Dispel magic works against the vamp also....
3. Dont stand still and close together!!! if u dont do any of the 2 things above, the standing still will kill you...not the vamp...
4. do the things above and apply fire or fighter guild abilities ...
5. Use fighter guild abilities against him, it sucks to have abilities u dont like, but thats a req. if u want to have the edge, in theses kind of situations..
6. the mist dont save them against the Stun effect.. or dispel magic...
7. Learn your strength and weakness and try to apply them against your enemies

1. Tired that, didn't work.
2. Somebody's gotta have it slotted and ultimate built up for it. Bad thing to have just one counter as well. Especially when only one class has it.
3. Tried that, didn't work. Also you can't control the other twenty people that are there with you.
4. Tried that, didn't work.
5. Tried that, didn't work.
6. Maybe not, but it didn't help you either.
7. Already done, tried them, didn't work.

There was never much a problem with 1 vamp v.s. 1. The problem was with 1 vamp v.s. zerg. The skill line was very clearly broken in such a way as to make them nearly invincible. There are plenty of videos out there of vampires in the middle of a firestorm of enemy attacks and his health never changes. Out of those twenty or thirty people, do you really think none of them thought to try spamming silver bolts or fire or hitting him with a stun? Even if by some strange twist they didn't think of it, do you really think it's right that one guy should be able to stand up to that much damage from that many people at once?

blackwolf7 · May 2014

Im just wondering what zos do with the money we pay them. Pool of money? Use it as a pillow? It seems a waste.

The bugged skills should be 2nd priority, (1st are the quests). Now they went out of the way to nerf vamps, they should be able to apply the fix as well. I think they are lying to us about 1.1 fixing skill bugs. Because if theyre not, they can just simply apply it when they nerfed vamps.

tordr86b16_ESO · May 2014

The problem is still unersolved, I can stack Standard of Might. LOL, go exploit it PVP's.