XP gain calculation broken -Final conclusion. First post edited and contains all the relevant info

smosti · May 2014

@KalecStromhir How do I get this addon to show me the results like you are??..

KalecStromhir · May 2014

I play an Orc NB. To get what I see you create a new chat box. Got options and select what combat info you want to see. That is for T's Combat Stats.
As for the XP bar to show numbers I use Azurah - Interface Enhanced
- esoui.com/downloads/info199-Azurah-InterfaceEnhanced.html

smosti · May 2014

KalecStromhir wrote: »

I play an Orc NB. To get what I see you create a new chat box. Got options and select what combat info you want to see.

Thankyou. I was hoping to squeeze in a really quick test but now really need to leave lol. So ill post my findings up asap when im back in a couple hours.

I play wood elf NB.
Let's compare results soon. Something odd is going on lol

Dalglish · May 2014

Are you talking about XP or Exp? XP, as far as I know is on the weapon/ability used, so if that weapon is ranked up higher, then it will not gain as much XP unless it is against higher level mobs.

If you are using a weapon that you don't normally use, then you will gain more xp (your weapon rank will be at a lower level). Exp is based solely (from what I gather) on your character level. I can use a bow or destro staff and kill a mob quicker than sword and shield and gain more weapon xp (because the bow is of lower level).

I have 2 accounts, one Vet 6 DK Tank and one level 40 Nightblade and I have not noticed either of the characters levelling up quicker (not from what I notice or remember from the first character run through).

Chirru · May 2014

Well, I am waiting for more test results...however, there has to be a multiplier in there somewhere in the calculations.

Scenario: there is this on level par char battling an NPC for half an hour and along comes the three level higher Char, sneezing once and the NPC is history. Question: Should both really get the same exp? I do not think so.

And neither should these (oh so helpful) comrades that jump in at the last moment and get in the very last hit. Should they get full exp for one hit?

ragamerb16_ESO · May 2014

The main problem for the OP is the "incombat" state. When you attack from stealth you stun the mob and kill it while it's stunned. This may mean that the addon he is using is failing to register the XP gain event... Or the system is not notifying it properly.

Nonetheless, using addons that simply operate on changes on the XP bar, should always work.

There are anomalies, although... The skill level of the weapon used matters. If you use CLS detailed XP report you see how, for example, after performing a kill you get 2 XP messages per mob. 1 big contribution and another lesser one (around 10%). What I don't have a clear idea is if all this XP gains really go towards Character progression or are just artifacts used to boost training of low level skills.

Litleheieb17_ESO · May 2014

Just to clearify; we are looking at the Experience for character progression.
We must also try to rule out any "incombat" states or blurry results that add-ons report.

The bottom line is;
is the experience gain on the character bar in any way related to how many hits you use to kill a mob?

Syntse · May 2014

Few more hours and I'll go on testing my self. I will check the in game exp and addon exp to see if they match. Also trying to see if hits to kill, time to kill has effect. Also going to use the exact same mob in the test and something other than mudcrab which is low exp anyway.

EDIT: oh and also use the exact same weapon to do so. Maybe use lower level one to test more hits.

Litleheieb17_ESO · May 2014

Chirru wrote: »

Well, I am waiting for more test results...however, there has to be a multiplier in there somewhere in the calculations.

Scenario: there is this on level par char battling an NPC for half an hour and along comes the three level higher Char, sneezing once and the NPC is history. Question: Should both really get the same exp? I do not think so.

And neither should these (oh so helpful) comrades that jump in at the last moment and get in the very last hit. Should they get full exp for one hit?

Thanks to Kalec's test earlier, we established that you get 66.67% of XP for a shared kill, regardless if you started the fight or joined in.

Based on experience, there probably are some hidden threshold to get credit for a kill, but we do not know excact numbers. So I don't think it is enough to "sneeze" on them, you have to do Your share.

bugulu · May 2014

Misleading thread title since there's no conclusion as to whether a fast kill generates less experience than a slow one.

Avidus · May 2014

What you are experiencing is the Finesse system.
I agree that something should be altered in regards to quickly downing an opponent.
I mean the idea of the Finesse system is to be rewarded for your efficiency and skill in combat.
If I am to go up to my opponent and spam my DPS attack until they blow up and die, I will receive poor loot, and less experience.
If I take my time on that opponent, block their attacks, use all of my skills etc, I receive nicer loot and more experience.

During BETA I encountered the problem with my character being a 2H user focused on heavy hits. So I could drop an opponent in a couple of shots, but I was not benefited by doing this. However I experimented and slowly killed a tank opponent, making sure to do everything correctly. And the outcome was significantly better for me.

Now I will say, I love the finesse system, its great. It needs to be touched up though.
Unfortunately allowing 1 shot kills to provide the greatest outcome each time does not allow for equal play, and there are a number of negatives that come from this.
It does however need to be treated for what it is, an efficient kill.
I think the best solution is to complicate it even more.

Consider more circumstances.
- Enemy stats
- Player stats
- Player equipment
- Player and enemy direction of facing (Who is facing who, who has their back turned.)
- Priority of tactic (Should I block the power attack when I can kill the opponent before they finish it)
- Maximum DPS potential vs time taken to kill opponent.
- Maximum defensive potential vs successful defences.
- Number of abilities used.
- Skill priority (Is using all 5 abilities the best option if the best possible outcome is using the same 2 abilities several times in a row)

The list could go on but the Finesse system dictates I should have ended this post at least 2 paragraphs ago.

Litleheieb17_ESO · May 2014

I think Avidus has answered a lot of our questions here with FINESSE.

I was not aware of this, but if you Google it, you will find a lot information regarding Finesse, and it is basically what Avidus has explained here.

This, we must assume, explain the different xp from kills, though I have not seen any "official" information about it.

**

This actually means that the crit Nightblade specc, that obviously lack Finesse, will have to kill more mobs to gain the same XP as a char doing more "complicated" fights that includes block, dodge, etc.

So the observation that OP did, was partially right, and a just question.

smosti · May 2014

Avidus wrote: »

What you are experiencing is the Finesse system.
I agree that something should be altered in regards to quickly downing an opponent.
I mean the idea of the Finesse system is to be rewarded for your efficiency and skill in combat.
If I am to go up to my opponent and spam my DPS attack until they blow up and die, I will receive poor loot, and less experience.
If I take my time on that opponent, block their attacks, use all of my skills etc, I receive nicer loot and more experience.

During BETA I encountered the problem with my character being a 2H user focused on heavy hits. So I could drop an opponent in a couple of shots, but I was not benefited by doing this. However I experimented and slowly killed a tank opponent, making sure to do everything correctly. And the outcome was significantly better for me.

Now I will say, I love the finesse system, its great. It needs to be touched up though.
Unfortunately allowing 1 shot kills to provide the greatest outcome each time does not allow for equal play, and there are a number of negatives that come from this.
It does however need to be treated for what it is, an efficient kill.
I think the best solution is to complicate it even more.

Consider more circumstances.
- Enemy stats
- Player stats
- Player equipment
- Player and enemy direction of facing (Who is facing who, who has their back turned.)
- Priority of tactic (Should I block the power attack when I can kill the opponent before they finish it)
- Maximum DPS potential vs time taken to kill opponent.
- Maximum defensive potential vs successful defences.
- Number of abilities used.
- Skill priority (Is using all 5 abilities the best option if the best possible outcome is using the same 2 abilities several times in a row)

The list could go on but the Finesse system dictates I should have ended this post at least 2 paragraphs ago.

Awesome post. A lot of information here which is new to me. But I have a problem with this system if this is what I'm experiencing and should also be a huge problem for other NB's.

I'm currently conducting my tests that will be shared to you all now. Check back here in 15mins.

Syntse · May 2014

Yes Finesse might explain something. However I'm still interested to learn what kind of actions give bit better exp if quick and dirty kill is not fine enough and it needs to be movie style long combat scene to get full reward.

Might not be using the knowledge all the time to power exp as I'm sure I just want some dungeons etc to be over with and go though quickly killing everything. But in case just missing little bit of exp to level and do not want to go on quest to get that, I could grind some mobs for the exp with the way that it gives the most.

Zargorius · May 2014

Wasn't "Finesse" scraped like months ago?

Jade1986 · May 2014

smosti wrote: »

So I've only just noticed this since using the addon which shows xp gains etc.

I play a NB and am currently in a dungeon. I use a lot of sneak/shadow and high crit hits.

I kill an enemy from behind in two shots and get 3xp.
I then wait for him to spawn and kill him front on and get 130xp.

I tested this multiple times.

So seems us NB's who play a heavy shadow/crit build are getting reemed by this.

Or is there some logical reason as to why they'd want to grant us shadow NB's only 3xp for a well planned kill?

EDIT:

DakotaCoty wrote: »

I believe there are a number of calculated variables in this:
The amount of HP
The type of monster

For example when I kill rats or dungeon monsters, I rarely get over 5-10 exp. Whereas a humanoid or skeleton my level will grant 130... Other than that, I haven't noticed experience being rewarded on how fast you kill it.

Well my test proves otherwise lol. Like i said...same enemy, same level. I crit killed him 2shots and got 3xp. Waited for the respawn. Engaged in combat...took maybe 7 shots and got 130xp. Wait for respawn. Crit killed...got 3xp.

EDIT:
ROFL! I can't believe it takes into consideration how many hits you do! What a stupid [SNIP] calculator!. I just had someone in guild send me a level 4 bow.. killed the same ogre in about 24 shots and got 205xp....

Wow...

So In theory...my build is going to take twice as long to level up my character then a [SNIP] melee smashing tank.

Well at least I am getting more exp than others for using the 2 handed skill line, lol.

zeuseason · May 2014

Zargorius wrote: »

Wasn't "Finesse" scraped like months ago?

I thought so too. But maybe not?

bugulu · May 2014

Awesome post, Avidus.

smosti · May 2014

Okay results are in and I will just like to say...I'm pretty dissapointed with this xp system...

Here we have me using my level 28 bow. The opponent is a level 25ogre. I went into combat as per normal and here is the result.

smosti · May 2014

Here is a crouched attack on the same oponent. I used the same bow. It's a one shot kill...

smosti · May 2014

And here....same oponent again....same method as the first BUT.... look at the xp..

smosti · May 2014

So... .... explain what is happening here...especially on the last test?

This xp system is broken *** and stupid.

NB's are at a disadvantage for critical kills. And it seems the "Finese" calculator is very inconsistent. I pretty much killed the ogre exactly the same way in test 1 and 3 but one grants 124xp and the other 3xp.

That is a HUGE discrepancy between the two.

Also... one *** critical killl because i positioned myself perfectly and waited for the perfect moment to strike? How is that not finese? If anything..that should have a bigger bonus multiplier then a hack and slash! But damn....I'd settle for the same xp as a hack and slash kill....

Syntse · May 2014

Hmm seems I need to extend my own research for the results to minimum 5 kills of each scenario. Looks like I'm spending the rest of my evening just testing this stuff out.

Someone should video TESO Mythbusters episode out of this one

smosti · May 2014

sorry my posts have gone all ***. redoing now...

Keffertjes · May 2014

here's wut i heard the first week of launch.

people got RV10 in a week because some mobs where *BUGGED* meaning youve had 2 crabs well 1 crab would give you 100Xp while the other woulda give you 500xp.

i know this aint wut you guys are talking about but reading this forum the game is 70% broken lol nothing works like it should be (and dont come with that crap the game just launched) we are a month further and so far expoiters get rewarded while people that wanna enjoy the game like it should be getting punished by not being able to farm *HOW THEY WANT*

smosti · May 2014

It's been pointed out by @Avidus That the xp gain is based on "finese". check his post on page 3.

However.... my tests show this system to be inconsistent for all and especially unfair for a shadow NB who uses stealth and crit hits to kill...

^^^Normal battle against a LVL 25 ogre with my level 28 bow.

^^^Crouched critical against the same respawning ogre. Crouched and waited for the perfect moment to fire...

^^^Same ogre and exact same method as test 1 but only 3xp????.....

Zargorius · May 2014

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Bazzakrak · May 2014

Zargorius wrote: »

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Could be there is some sort of riping system in place, where a mob just respawned will give very little xp, but then more and more up to a max after a certain time.

I know that system was in place on a mud I played many years ago, to prevent players from making macros in zmud to farm

DMuehlhausen · May 2014

I suppose I wouldn't find this hard to believe. As a healer I've noticed that when I do a dungeon my xp bar doesn't even really move. It jumps with the quests yes, but the actual kills it barely moves through an entire run. If it does go by how many times you hit something that is really annoying.

smosti · May 2014

Bazzakrak wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Could be there is some sort of riping system in place, where a mob just respawned will give very little xp, but then more and more up to a max after a certain time.

I know that system was in place on a mud I played many years ago, to prevent players from making macros in zmud to farm

Good point....just tested it on different level 25 ogres. Same results as the first $:\$