XP gain calculation broken -Final conclusion. First post edited and contains all the relevant info

KerinKor

Litleheieb17_ESO wrote: »

Thank you for testing.

KalecStromhir wrote: »

You now have multippel testresults that shows similar XP regardless of number of hits.

On a sidenote, the last test shows us that a shared kill gives 66.66% XP, compared to killing it alone.

So now there's a basis for being whined at for 'helping' others in a game that was promoted as one where you didn't have to 'tap' a mob .. if someone else hits the mob your XP is nerfed, and if you're the helper you nerfed their's.

This isn't good news.

Moon449

smosti wrote: »

Bazzakrak wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Could be there is some sort of riping system in place, where a mob just respawned will give very little xp, but then more and more up to a max after a certain time.

I know that system was in place on a mud I played many years ago, to prevent players from making macros in zmud to farm

Good point....just tested it on different level 25 ogres. Same results as the first

Are you actually looking at the original xp bar and how much you have before and after. All these addons are wrong, i have the same thing happen where it shows i get 3 xp, but really i'm getting the full amount.

smosti

Moon449 wrote: »

smosti wrote: »

Bazzakrak wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Could be there is some sort of riping system in place, where a mob just respawned will give very little xp, but then more and more up to a max after a certain time.

I know that system was in place on a mud I played many years ago, to prevent players from making macros in zmud to farm

Good point....just tested it on different level 25 ogres. Same results as the first

Are you actually looking at the original xp bar and how much you have before and after. All these addons are wrong, i have the same thing happen where it shows i get 3 xp, but really i'm getting the full amount.

Yes... all my tests I have checked the actual xp bar each time to make sure the addon is consistent and working properly

Litleheieb17_ESO

Thanks Smosti for the test.

I find the results clearifying, but also a bit disturbing.

1. I think we can conclude that number of hits on mob, does not directly affect XP gain. Several tests disproves that theory.

2. If the Finesse system is implemented, and affect XP received (we need a confirmation for this), it works at best in "mysterious ways".
The last Smotsi test shows this, where he recevies same XP for totally different combat approach.

3. Are there any other unknown factors, like diminished returns for repetetive killing of the same mob?

4. Broken xp mechanism altogheter (aka bugs..)?

We need more testing please.

Moon449

smosti wrote: »

Moon449 wrote: »

smosti wrote: »

Bazzakrak wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Is it possible that hitting the same exact mob after respawn has to do it (an anti-grinding feature)?
Have you tried different tactics each on a completely new mob, without re-using them?

Could be there is some sort of riping system in place, where a mob just respawned will give very little xp, but then more and more up to a max after a certain time.

I know that system was in place on a mud I played many years ago, to prevent players from making macros in zmud to farm

Good point....just tested it on different level 25 ogres. Same results as the first

Are you actually looking at the original xp bar and how much you have before and after. All these addons are wrong, i have the same thing happen where it shows i get 3 xp, but really i'm getting the full amount.

Yes... all my tests I have checked the actual xp bar each time to make sure the addon is consistent and working properly

Well that's wierd then, would be nice to have a ZOS response in here about it. Not that i've noticed this at all, could be a specific bug or some kind of system we don't know about

Avidus

I think you will find that helping another player yields better results than killing it by yourself. I find that consistently, IF somebody wants to test that please, just so we can rule that one out.

@smosti‌ Could you please test this on an opponent you cannot kill 1 hit.
Id like to see the results of using a sneak crit then engaging in combat, and one of equal without the sneak crit.

smosti

Avidus wrote: »

I think you will find that helping another player yields better results than killing it by yourself. I find that consistently, IF somebody wants to test that please, just so we can rule that one out.

@smosti‌ Could you please test this on an opponent you cannot kill 1 hit.
Id like to see the results of using a sneak crit then engaging in combat, and one of equal without the sneak crit.

Been ruled out. getting help from others gives less xp for all. CHeck my first post in this thread. its been updated.

Litleheieb17_ESO

Avidus wrote: »

I think you will find that helping another player yields better results than killing it by yourself. I find that consistently, IF somebody wants to test that please, just so we can rule that one out.

That scenario has been testet (in this thread), and result is that you get 66.67% of XP from a shared kill, regardless if you start the fight or join in.

But, of course, more test results wouldn't harm anyone

smosti

Litleheieb17_ESO wrote: »

Avidus wrote: »

I think you will find that helping another player yields better results than killing it by yourself. I find that consistently, IF somebody wants to test that please, just so we can rule that one out.

That scenario has been testet (in this thread), and result is that you get 66.67% of XP from a shared kill, regardless if you start the fight or join in.

Just tested and seems the xp is based on the amount of damage you deal as oposed to the other player. if you deal 50% damage each you are both awarded half the xp. If one player does the majority of damage..they get more xp then you. hmmmm

There's no way to be 100% certain on this though without being in party and asking the other person their xp gain.

Running through the dungeon and following a random and choosing when i attacked and I was getting different xp readings each time.

Needs to go under a controlled test to be certain

Litleheieb17_ESO

Suggestion; lets leave the shared kill scenario out of this, it complicates it too much

We have a hard enough time getting consistently test results from repetetive, single kill on same/similar mob.

Can someone test the diminishing return theory.
If you kill the same respawned mob, you loose XP. vs. killing two similar mob (same type/level, but not the same.. Yeah you get it )

The kills should be in the same way. ie. only light attacks.

Symmachus

Great read on the finesse system!
I was thinking though, maybe this is part of the anti-botting measures?
Maybe mobs have a timer that prevents (significant) xp gain if the mob is killed too quickly (like you'd see in a dungeon with several bots spamming high-dps skills)?

smosti

Litleheieb17_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion; lets leave the shared kill scenario out of this, it complicates it too much

We have a hard enough time getting consistently test results from repetetive, single kill on same/similar mob.

Can someone test the dimishing return theory.
If you kill the same respawned mob, you loose XP. vs. killing two similar mob (same type/level, but not the same.. Yeah you get it )

The kills should be in the same way. ie. only light attacks

Tested and ruled out. Diminishing returns does not exist on normal mobs atleast. Could be different for a dungeon boss etc

Litleheieb17_ESO

Symmachus wrote: »

Great read on the finesse system!

Yes, it is, but we still dont know if it is implemented in the game in a way that it affect the XP, or if it only affect ultimate resource gaining and/or loot.

Litleheieb17_ESO

smosti wrote: »

Tested and ruled out. Diminishing returns does not exist on normal mobs atleast. Could be different for a dungeon boss etc

Did we?
Your last test on the lvl 25 Orge, that showed:
124 xp - 3 xp - 3 xp
Was that on the same respawned ogre, or 3 different ones?

smosti

Okay so this is a test from the ogre dungeon. Killing the same 3 ogres over and over. However there seems to be inconsistency's in everything!

Ogre 1
Ogre 2
Ogre 3

Kill ogre 1
kill ogre 2
kill ogre 3
ogre 1 doesn't respawn
Ogre 2 spawns and I kill it
ogre 3 doesn't respawn
ogre 1 respawns and i kill it
ogre 2 doesn't respawn
ogre 3 respawns

*** me... this is beginning to be a lost cause. So many inconsistencies it's hard to get a proper test!

Okay what we know so far...

1. Xp based on finese
2. Getting help from others = less xp. How it's shared is based on the percentage of damage you do as opposed to the helper.
3. Spawns are inconsistent. Hard to get a reading if diminishing returns plays a factor in xp gain if you attack the same thing each time. I can confirm diminishing returns does not play a role if you attack 3 things over and over. You are given the appropriate xp each time it seems (if you can say the 3xp is due to my "finesse" in the kill)


So...i guess the only way we will ever know what's a factor in character xp gain is if ZOS gives us some insight into their system..

neocomab16_ESO

Okay. I kind of skipped through this thread and only looked at the numbers and the combat situation. Right now I cannot make any sense of it. There seems to be a finesse mechanic that kind of determines your xp. Here's what I dont get: I imagine this mechanic as follows.

Monxter X has 1000 hp and gives 100 XP. You combat the monster, you do stuff. Your finesse rating increases because you're all fancy fighting. You earn a bonus of 25% and thus gain 125 XP.

This would make sense, right? However, it doesnt make sense that a mob while being 1 shot only gives 3 xp.

It also doesnt make sense why finesse should punish heavy crit combat styles in such a harsh way if that was the case at all.

It kind of makes sense that you share xp with someone else, because, lets face it, you didnt break a sweat.

I dont get, however, the ratio of sharing xp. This can be tested when grinding and funny thing is that I sometimes didnt share xp at all, while grinding, when someone helped me out. It was kind of a group play without grouping thing.

Anyway, I am not surprised by this. Not at all. I mean, look at the state of the game, look closely and tell me which of the basics of a typical MMO in this game are either broken or at least heavily bugged. If you somewhat manage to stay objective on this you may not be surprised about the fact that XP gain either is completely off and weird or simply bugged as hell.

smosti

neocomab16_ESO wrote: »

Okay. I kind of skipped through this thread and only looked at the numbers and the combat situation. Right now I cannot make any sense of it. There seems to be a finesse mechanic that kind of determines your xp. Here's what I dont get: I imagine this mechanic as follows.

Monxter X has 1000 hp and gives 100 XP. You combat the monster, you do stuff. Your finesse rating increases because you're all fancy fighting. You earn a bonus of 25% and thus gain 125 XP.

This would make sense, right? However, it doesnt make sense that a mob while being 1 shot only gives 3 xp.

It also doesnt make sense why finesse should punish heavy crit combat styles in such a harsh way if that was the case at all.

It kind of makes sense that you share xp with someone else, because, lets face it, you didnt break a sweat.

I dont get, however, the ratio of sharing xp. This can be tested when grinding and funny thing is that I sometimes didnt share xp at all, while grinding, when someone helped me out. It was kind of a group play without grouping thing.

Anyway, I am not surprised by this. Not at all. I mean, look at the state of the game, look closely and tell me which of the basics of a typical MMO in this game are either broken or at least heavily bugged. If you somewhat manage to stay objective on this you may not be surprised about the fact that XP gain either is completely off and weird or simply bugged as hell.

Absolutely 100%. This is now a lost cause. Just wasting time on it lol. I'd dare say it's bugged but obviously something very hard to look into from both player and devs end.

If someone has the patience and time to run some very long tests which takes up their play time for the week.... might just get some very good info but in all honesty, I don't think any of us are up for that lol

PVT_Parts

Just hurry along to VR1 where this will be useless and you will always get your 42xp per kill, of course the XP add ons will think you are a lvl 3 and display the XP you would have gotten at lvl 3(150) which is sad to be jealous of the lvl 3s that get 150XP for killing a lvl 3 bandit while you only get 42 for killing the same VR1 bandit.

Darzil

Am certainly seeing the very low (3-8xp) from one shotting level 35 monsters at level 35. Given that it takes time to get lined up in the right place at the right range, it's a little unfortunate. (It only happens when I stealth, get behind the foe and use Snipe. With lots of +crit gear/skills when I crit I get a one shot kill)

ragamerb16_ESO

First time I hear about "finnesse"... But if that was the design... TBH is a gigantic waste of resources (and Dev time).

On a game with an XP cap you only need to gauge 2 factors:

- XP curve per level.
- Party division.

Both above topics are well done and covered in plenty of past MMOs. You just need to follow a few rules, once you have selected how much time, on average, a player has to play to reach the cap through the different earning mechanisms:

- Discount static XP (Quests, exploration, achievements) from the ammount needed to access each new milestone (level in this case). Divide that XP into the average ammount of enemies a player is expected to defeat. Each time you alter the density/respawn of your population, you have to revise XP earns through combat. This is basically a very important part of most MMOs betas.

- Party XPS (XP per second on the activity) has to be higher than Solo XPS. This means, ofc, that per kill you have to earn less as a "linked party" were each member earns XP when ANY1 does a kill, kills enemies at entire multiples of solo players. If you didn't reduce the XP per kill on parties (or when you are helped) the progress speed of solo players wouth be unbearable slow compared to regular party members (there is also the issue of party assembly time... If you don't reward parties with higher XPS, ppl will simply not bother assembling them for farming XP). OFC, this is just a "slider" that labels your game as Solo-centric or Party-centric... Most Devs put this "slider" into a middle ground.

If you try to increase the complexity of the XP splitting... You only trigger bugs, unforseen "secondary effects" and you will be wasting Dev effort on a feature that becomes obsolete at the very moment the player hits the cap.

smosti

Nice post @ragamerb16_ESO

This is my final conclusion on the topic.

I've been questing and paying extreme attention to finese modifies and the xp and drops im geting.

This is my final conclusion on this topic.

xp gain is linked to how many hits and abilities you use...Period. Finese is the fancy word they've thrown in to make it seem all sophiscated and well thought through when in actual fact...it's a very simple system.

I've noticed the longer you stay in battle and the more abilities you throw at the enemy and the blocks and dodges you do..the higher your "finese" rating goes which directly affects your xp gain. It does not seem to take into consideration how well you fight. Rolling and stringing together an epic 4 ability combo gives the same finese rating as stringing together the same spammed ability 5 times.

This has a cap however. I think it's 20% increase in XP.

Moral of the story....want the best xp gains and the best chance of a decent drop? Try staying in combat longer and avoid killing your opponent off quickly.

smosti

Why we are only granted 3xp for 1-2shot crit kill still interests me. If the xp system is based on finesse... how come I'm given 3xp for a 1 shot but the base xp of killing that target is 124xp (example) when my finese is 0%? Should I not also receive the base xp of 124xp for the crit kill as oposed to 3xp?

I believe this to be a bug. I think the system is tricked into thinking that the fact that you caused so much damage and so swiftly killed the target....the system believes you are in a much lower zone then you should be.

Also...the fact that finesse is also directly linked to the quality of drop you receive concerns me. Why? Because a NB is known to be a DPS and quick finisher. Well I guess this also applies to other classe's playing a HIGH dps/crit build. SO...this means NB's mostly get a shitter loot then other classes.

But you make up for it by killing quicker meaning in the long run you get the same amount of total gold from selling loot?

Yes... but, that means NB's need more items to cover the same amount of gold meaning we run out of invent space quicker because we have a bunch of grey items which do not stack which nets 500g whereas a different class who took their sweet ass time to get the kill looted 3 blue items which nets them 500g but only takes 3 space!

Okay screw it, I can deal with having to make more trips to the bank then other classes...OH BUT WAIT.

Other classes get better quality drops right? This means they have more green and blue etc items to deconstruct therefore they are also getting better imporvement materials.

Finese is broken. Case closed.

Heishi

Want a real kicker, throw heal assist into the mix. You still get credit for a kill of the person you healed but is it a set percentage, based on how much you heal the person, what if they have full health and you just cast a regen. I haven't tested anything, but happened to think about this while I was reading the long bit at the beginning.

smosti

Heishi wrote: »

Want a real kicker, throw heal assist into the mix. You still get credit for a kill of the person you healed but is it a set percentage, based on how much you heal the person, what if they have full health and you just cast a regen. I haven't tested anything, but happened to think about this while I was reading the long bit at the beginning.

I actually don't see a huge problem with this.

It's nice to know they have implemented a system that caters for healers. Without this.. no one would dedicate their build to healing.

However, one problem i see, as stated by you... what if they're full health?

Hmmm, I guess you could have a destruction staff as your quick swap to deal some dmg for xp while you wait for your allies to take some hits lol

zeuseason

Regardless of the proof in the pudding, I don't find leveling to be inconsistent with my zones/character level. I always outlevel the zone I'm in.

Heishi

smosti wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

Want a real kicker, throw heal assist into the mix. You still get credit for a kill of the person you healed but is it a set percentage, based on how much you heal the person, what if they have full health and you just cast a regen. I haven't tested anything, but happened to think about this while I was reading the long bit at the beginning.

I actually don't see a huge problem with this.

It's nice to know they have implemented a system that caters for healers. Without this.. no one would dedicate their build to healing.

However, one problem i see, as stated by you... what if they're full health?

Hmmm, I guess you could have a destruction staff as your quick swap to deal some dmg for xp while you wait for your allies to take some hits lol

Don't get me wrong, having a pure healing char, I'm very glad you get xp the way you do. My comment was only meant to be in regards to the amount of xp you get from healing and what it is based on (as this thread is about how much damage you do and the amount of xp given for that).

I actually find the resto staff damage to do pretty well given that with a skill it also heals you (or an ally). I don't use the light attack though because it seems broken to me. using the charged attack when fighting seems fine though. He's still low level, but I've solo'd and pug healed quite a bit with him.

Syntse

Ok, some testing now done. Some conclusions. If someone really needs more details and pictures etc I can provide those too.

Exp is counted from the exp bar in game

Mob: lvl 23 Bloodfiend
Me: lvl 27 bow nightblade

Different mobs 1-2 shots: +112 exp
Same mob 1-2 shots: +112 exp
Different mobs multiple hits: +112 exp (normal hits and acid arrow)
Same mob multiple hits: +112 exp (normal hits and acid arrow)
Different mobs long fight: +112 exp (normal hits and acid arrow)

Now here is some shot from exp got:


So we can see exp comes in 2 parts +5 EXP and +107 EXP totaling 112 EXP. So could be that some peoples exp logs some times show the first one only or the 2nd one.

Overall it would seem like the exp is pretty consistent what ever you do.

smosti