I only play my main. Before AwA, I had several characters on the go.

Destai wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

AwA completely killed replayability for me. Before, I wanted to level up tons of characters, had tons of ideas for them, had plans to get them all competent in their chosen role, testing them through things like vet dungeon achievements and trifectas. I did vMA on all my characters, even after stickerbook.

Now, I log on my main for events or new stories (haven't even bothered to order Necrom), and then disappear for months on end. I think I've played maybe a month total in the past 15 months. Add in the hybrid changes and other combat changes and I just can't get excited enough to bother relearning to play again. Honestly questioning why I even bother doing events when I don't enjoy the game anymore so who cares if I miss out of cosmetics? It's an unpleasant way to feel for a game that I used to love.

FWIW, you can still live out their stories. You can still play the content you want to, dress em up how you want, so don't let this update take that joy from you. I can understand that some achievements are part of the story, don't want to diminish your frustration, but don't let all your joy be ruined. Just my two cents.

I get that and I understand how that works for some people. To me, seeing everything already done in the achievement list (even zone stories) makes it feel as if my characters no longer have souls and are just reskinned versions of whoever got credit for the thing. It took away the tracking and therefore took something away that I didn't even realize how much I enjoyed that aspect until it was on the cutting block. I never thought ZoS would do AwA, especially in the way they did, especially after years of saying they wouldn't. Feels like nothing is sacred and might as well not invest time in this anymore because they don't respect my time.

heaven13 wrote: »

AwA completely killed replayability for me. Before, I wanted to level up tons of characters, had tons of ideas for them, had plans to get them all competent in their chosen role, testing them through things like vet dungeon achievements and trifectas. I did vMA on all my characters, even after stickerbook.

@heaven13 this is an honest question from me, how did AWA change any of that? You know which toon's you've earned a dungeon or trial achievement on, what's to stop you from continuing to experiment with builds, getting them proficient in their build for your chosen roles, and testing them in more difficult content like vMA in the absence of a split second sound and popup "atta boy" from Zos in the form of an achievement? You can use self restraint and only use a title on a toon after you have re-earned it on that toon if you choose right now. Achievements didn't make any of that happen before AWA, you did and your passion for the ESO game play loop and world building. Your toons who were goody two shoes before AWA are still goody two shoes after AWA since you earned those TG and DB achievements and not your toon despite them being [i]optionally[/i] available for use on your new toon.

On a personal note I'm always baffled by anyone who needs a virtual carrot on the stick to chase in order to entice them to play a game they say they love. I started gaming in the 80s far before online gameplay, achievements, battle passeds DLC and crown store shenanigans - my friends and I played video games because the games were fun. I literally played Quake II online for over 20 years straight starting in 1997 when it released with no progression system or rewards system because the core game play was fun. I play the Battlefield series to this day since Battlefield 2 in 2004 for the same reason despite the recent implementations of Live Service that have arguably worsened the game play experience because the core game play is fun - and I completely ignore live service battle passes (after chasing them for a few years) nowadays because I want to enjoy my games not work a second full time job. I've played multiple toons in ESO over the years since Beta/Launch, but honestly I've created more toons since AWA than before because now I don't have to worry about achievements, titles, and re-earning every piece of minutia because the core gameplay, world building, and stories are fun and entertaining to. Am I misinterpreting your post thinking you don't enjoy ESO for ESO's gameplay and that you need a achievement popup to enjoy playing ESO?

EDIT: your achievement list is impressive, so you obviously are motivated by more than just re-earning achievements. I'd like to hear more about what drives you in ESO to more fully understand your position.

I play my alts less. I care about the game less, so I log in less. A different discussion on this forum made me realize I used to do daily pledges all the time, for the chance of getting a dungeon achievement on my alts, and I pretty much never go in the dungeon queue now. A loss for the community as I usually bring real tanks and healers.

I buy less in the Crown Store (still some, because I didn't end my subscription).

I also play and care about my main less, which was a templar, between this and the templar changes, because too many times post AwA a non-main got an "earned by" and it makes having a main more meaningless. This is a negative thing, not a positive thing, for me, because I was often motivated to do things once on my main and then again and again on different alts, it was fun and enjoyable, but now if I did something once and it doesn't matter if my main did it, I just don't re-play things.

I actually think I'm going to feel it pretty badly when I make my new Aracanists and the achievements are few and far between. I enjoy the little pop ups and acknowledgements, what can I say. I haven't tried to level an alt yet since the change.

Bit of an odd poll because a change or lack of change could be either good or bad, depending on your sentiments pre-AwA. You might be going for a "was this much ado about nothing" vibe but there may be folks who were excited about it who ended up not feeling as much of an impact as they hoped for.

Fkey wrote: »

I play to have fun, not track completion of "kill 3 digital entities" to-do lists.
I have more than enough to-do lists in real life thanks.

I don't understand why folks with these sentiments don't seem to understand that different people have fun in different ways. To me, working through a list of challenges is fun. If meeting this view point had been the reason ZOS changed achievements, literally a toggle to turn off achievement pop ups could have had the same effect and the rest of us who enjoyed the tracking could have still tracked away. It's frustrating to me when people hint that others aren't having fun if they use the achievements as a guide for playing. Obviously lots of people like them or no one would care about them and AwA wouldn't have caused a bit of fuss.

Anyway, this definitely FUNdamentally changed the game for me because I am having less fun, now. :P

Oy. I know what I've done on every character I have (and that's a LOT....) But not everyone's mind works like mine (far from it). So - I understand that others don't have my particular ability to keep 80+ characters and theiir past and current progress in mind. I never used achievements in the way others do - because to me achievements are just plain silly.

But I'm not anywhere close to the norm. Do you realize that I can go back to games I played in the late 80s (using DosBox of course) and STILL find the best stuff and STILL remember how to kill a couple hundred orcs in the Temple of Elemental Evil? That was an SSI Gold Box Game in Ed's Forgotten Realms - and yes, I loaded it up not long back, still know where everything is and how to get it all.

Don't denigrate others because something has changed their ability to enjoy a game please - you just come across as insensitive.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I started gaming in the 80s far before online gameplay, achievements, battle passeds DLC and crown store shenanigans - my friends and I played video games because the games were fun. [...] Am I misinterpreting your post thinking you don't enjoy ESO for ESO's gameplay and that you need a achievement popup to enjoy playing ESO?

@Ragnarok0130 I started gaming around the same time you did (pre-achievements). If a game is fun, I don't need achievements for me to play it through the FIRST time.

If I'm going to replay content that has little to no replayability, meaning it'll be the same experience the second time around (using a different class isn't enough in for me - the zone story, delves, WBs, etc. will be the same), then I need something to make me want to do that. In this game, that "something" was achievements and an incomplete map for each character. AwA took those things away. So now I only play my main.

When Necrom is released, I'll play the heck out of it with my main and have fun doing it. But that'll be it. I get my new experiences in other games now (between content drops, I still play ESO, but mainly to do daily crafting, endeavors, and stuff I still need on my main, like lore books, antiquities, etc.).

@AzuraFan fair enough I can understand that point of view. I play different classes to alleviate any sort of boredom and create replayability while dungeon running or raiding even if playing the same role. For example I find healing on a warden or nightblade quite different from healing on a templar so that typically snaps me out of any malaise. I'm looking forward to sinking my teeth into the Arcanist class when Necrom drop and seeing what it can do in the various areas of the game and how the theory crafting community's findings will jive or conflict with what I'll naturally gravitate to via my own discovery in game skill and buildwise. For story replay I normally get new toons to 50 ASAP via dungeon queues so I can use them in trials and veteran dungon progs, gather any overland sky shards for skill points and then play the story at my leisure when it's been a while and the palette is cleansed.

Leveling new characters via dolmens...pointless. I just take them to Blackrose or DSA or a zombie farm. There's no incentive for me to get dungeon or trial achievements on alts, or really do anything on them except for writs or event stuff. So for me it basically removed a crap ton of incentive to do other things more than once.

AzuraFan wrote: »

If I'm going to replay content that has little to no replayability, meaning it'll be the same experience the second time around (using a different class isn't enough in for me - the zone story, delves, WBs, etc. will be the same), then I need something to make me want to do that. In this game, that "something" was achievements and an incomplete map for each character. AwA took those things away. So now I only play my main.

Tamriel Once.

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

AwA completely killed replayability for me. Before, I wanted to level up tons of characters, had tons of ideas for them, had plans to get them all competent in their chosen role, testing them through things like vet dungeon achievements and trifectas. I did vMA on all my characters, even after stickerbook.

@heaven13 this is an honest question from me, how did AWA change any of that? You know which toon's you've earned a dungeon or trial achievement on, what's to stop you from continuing to experiment with builds, getting them proficient in their build for your chosen roles, and testing them in more difficult content like vMA in the absence of a split second sound and popup "atta boy" from Zos in the form of an achievement? You can use self restraint and only use a title on a toon after you have re-earned it on that toon if you choose right now. Achievements didn't make any of that happen before AWA, you did and your passion for the ESO game play loop and world building. Your toons who were goody two shoes before AWA are still goody two shoes after AWA since you earned those TG and DB achievements and not your toon despite them being [i]optionally[/i] available for use on your new toon.

On a personal note I'm always baffled by anyone who needs a virtual carrot on the stick to chase in order to entice them to play a game they say they love. I started gaming in the 80s far before online gameplay, achievements, battle passeds DLC and crown store shenanigans - my friends and I played video games because the games were fun. I literally played Quake II online for over 20 years straight starting in 1997 when it released with no progression system or rewards system because the core game play was fun. I play the Battlefield series to this day since Battlefield 2 in 2004 for the same reason despite the recent implementations of Live Service that have arguably worsened the game play experience because the core game play is fun - and I completely ignore live service battle passes (after chasing them for a few years) nowadays because I want to enjoy my games not work a second full time job. I've played multiple toons in ESO over the years since Beta/Launch, but honestly I've created more toons since AWA than before because now I don't have to worry about achievements, titles, and re-earning every piece of minutia because the core gameplay, world building, and stories are fun and entertaining to. Am I misinterpreting your post thinking you don't enjoy ESO for ESO's gameplay and that you need a achievement popup to enjoy playing ESO?

EDIT: your achievement list is impressive, so you obviously are motivated by more than just re-earning achievements. I'd like to hear more about what drives you in ESO to more fully understand your position.

I love games both that have achievements and have roleplay possibilities (even though I only do it in my head, as my characters might rather than within a community with others). I've played Mass Effect multiple times, Dragon Age multiple times, etc. You might say "wait a second, those games only award achievements the first time" and you'd be right. The main difference between those games and this one is that, in those games, I also have character tracking. I can see the quest progression, I can see what I've done, DA:O even keeps a little journal that tells me how many enemies my party has killed vs my character, how much of the world I've explored, etc. The world also changes with my choices which makes replay a richer experience.

ESO doesn't have that meaningful replay value. It really never has because the world doesn't change, other than the scripted way it's meant to. Even when your character is offered a choice, that choice impacts very little and is quickly forgotten about. There are few quests where there are different ways to complete it, other than maybe paying gold or intimidating someone to skip the fetch step. And I was okay with this. I understood that was the price of playing an MMO. BUT, I could use character achievements as my own tracking and participate with the world in my own way for each character.

Some examples:

• I wanted to get quite a few master anglers, for the characters it made sense for, but now I can't track who has captured what fish. I remember I had 3 who had MA done, but only 1 who had also done most of the DLC zones as well. But if I had a couple in progress, how am I to remember which fish they had in which zone, especially because I tend to fish as I quest?
• Dungeon achievements, particularly trifectas, are difficult to track without achievements.
  • Unless you are on PC (which I am but others who feel the same as I do may not be), speed runs are almost impossible unless you are THAT fast that it's not even a question. Especially because some start as soon as you walk in, some start when you engage the first enemy, and some timers start at a specific point in the dungeon a little past the entrance.
  • If you miss one single trash mob in most of the dungeons (I think starting with Dragon Bones), trifectas will not be awarded even if you no-deathed, sped run, and hard-moded. You have to go back and find that mob and then may end up going over the time requirement. Without the achievement awarded, you won't know if you actually did it or not on a new character. This actually happened when trying to help a friend get the Moon Hunter Skin; he was only missing no death and we did it, but no achievement popped for him so we had to go back through and eventually found a spriggan in the maze. If we'd been trying to do it on new characters post AwA rather than for the skin, we'd have never known.

It's such a simple, small thing but this is what I mean when I say that I feel like AwA rendered my characters soulless: they have now all become extensions of ME, the account holder, with very little to themselves. If I had a journal like in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, I'd probably feel differently because some of what ESO has as account achievements would be things that would be in your journal instead. If ZoS had done both character achievements and account achievements, similar to the way Kyoma's addon worked, I'd have been ecstatic because it would have been the best for both sides of the coin and I feel like way more of the players would have been satisfied.

Prior to AwA launch, I quit the game. Completely. Uninstalled and wiped my hands of it. ZoS had said, for years they would never add these and even though I was okay if they did it like Kyoma's, I never thought they would do so in a way that took something away from longtime players. I felt pretty betrayed when they said yes, they're wiping all character achievements, yes this is the only way going forward, no we will not engage at all with any of the deeper questions anyone has about it. "Oh, um, PS, it's FoR pErFoRmAnCe".

I did actually end up missing the game and decided to come back. Some people in this thread may even remember me messaging them for advice on how they were coping and any tips they may have. Unfortunately, my absence prior to U33 (and U34 and U35) means I missed out on the super helpful addon that would have preserved my previous progress. The first thing I did when I came back was to log in on my main, open Kyoma's Achievements, and painstakingly go through every single achievement EVERY character had and transfer them, by hand, to a spreadsheet. Down to each fish they had collected. Pithka's allowed me to, more easily, also do this for dungeon achievements. But honestly, I've found that it doesn't really matter. Playing Spreadsheets Online is infinitely less fun and the replay value (that was already slim) has been narrowed so slightly that I basically have become one of those one-and-done people who log in to do the thing on the one character I play (which is a templar, rip me) and then go play something else.

It's funny because I've always been a proponent of more character slots. Let me have so many characters! And now I couldn't care less about the additional slots coming with Necrom because I started deleting characters I knew I would never bother logging back in on. Why do I need more if they're all reduced to a (mostly) singular entity with different cosmetics and the same skills in different colors? Sometimes I think if I didn't have all my crown content on this account, including ones I cannot get again, I'd just switch to my second account and maybe start over from scratch with a single character but honestly, probably not.

I will reiterate though that it's not just AwA that has me feeling this way. I was quite excited to return after High Isle came out, especially as a Breton main! It's what convinced me to reinstall the game. And I still want to know where my rich Breton culture is hiding. AwA is a huge factor, probably the biggest, but the general disappointment of the storytelling, the extensive combat changes and homogenization, and the continued prioritization of the crown store over actual content all leave me sad and cynical.

@Ragnarock41 thank you for the genuine question. Even though you clearly disagree, I do feel as though you approached the topic from a curious but respectful way and I appreciate that. And if you got through this giant wall of text, kudos!

@ZOS_Kevin Could you please confirm whether anyone at ZOS is following this thread?

It's an interesting reflection on how the switch to account-wide achievements has impacted more than a third of the playerbase over a year on, mostly negatively and I dare say those players who say it has impacted them positively are at least offset by those players who are no longer here because of it. It was unpopular for a significant chunk of the playerbase when it was announced, and it remains so more than a year on.

To what extent has it achieved the technical benefits it was finally attributed to? Are those technical benefits related in any way to the technical benefits recently attributed to the decision to make players wait when switching servers?

Marcus684 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin Could you please confirm whether anyone at ZOS is following this thread?

It's an interesting reflection on how the switch to account-wide achievements has impacted more than a third of the playerbase over a year on, mostly negatively and I dare say those players who say it has impacted them positively are at least offset by those players who are no longer here because of it. It was unpopular for a significant chunk of the playerbase when it was announced, and it remains so more than a year on.

To what extent has it achieved the technical benefits it was finally attributed to? Are those technical benefits related in any way to the technical benefits recently attributed to the decision to make players wait when switching servers?

That's a pretty bold statement to make with no evidence to back it up. On the contrary, I'd suggest that basing the popularity of a change based on a forum poll is biased towards the negative, since I think unhappy players are much more likely to come to a forum to vent their unhappiness, while those who like it are more likely to carry on with the game and would likely only vote if they happened across the poll by accident, like I did.

Whether a forum poll is considered representative tends to depend on a person's point of view on that particular subject. Your comment has no better evidence to support it than mine. All we can do is make assumptions based on following the subject over a period of time. In this case the 80+ pages of complaint on the PTS forum about the introduction of AwA and the way it was being implemented was generally considered at the time to be pretty much unprecedented for that forum and there is certainly a continuing criticism of it today at a level which makes me believe that there is indeed a significant chunk of the playerbase that was unhappy with it when it was introduced and remains unhappy with it today. The forum responses support that belief, but as for numbers and percentages those can never be definitively assessed, so like all comments on a forum they are only given as an opinion. Some will agree, some will disagree, my concern is simply that I hope someone at ZOS is following the discussion.

Tandor wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin Could you please confirm whether anyone at ZOS is following this thread?

It's an interesting reflection on how the switch to account-wide achievements has impacted more than a third of the playerbase over a year on, mostly negatively and I dare say those players who say it has impacted them positively are at least offset by those players who are no longer here because of it. It was unpopular for a significant chunk of the playerbase when it was announced, and it remains so more than a year on.

Meh. What are they going to do? Reverse course? I mean, sure, I bet that someone reads it, but my guess is that if they had to make the decision again, they would do it the same way.