Oakensoul was properly nerfed and doesn't need to be buffed at all.

Heavy attack builds existed long before Oakensoul or the empower buff. However, damage has been nerfed to such a degree that empower is the only thing keeping heavy attack builds functional. (Used to be able to do decent damage with a heavy attack build without empower).

Even when someone has a perfect rotation, damage from skills tend to fall short in comparison to light and heavy attacks.

My hot take is that the entire combat system needs to be reworked so skills do significantly more damage than light and heavy attacks, but such a change is unrealistic for a game this far along in its life cycle.

Ring shouldn't be buffed its strong enough. But I dislike here another things.

1st thing: templar rly is single class, who can make proper heavy attack builds without a ring, just because his solar barrage does damage and grants empower for long 20 second, while rest possible class skill are very short or very weak, or very both. I can't see any logical reason why heavy attack build are locked for only templars, if you don't have ring or don't want to use it.

2nd thing is that ESO is lame itself. It is lame itself because devs don't care about old content. For example, there is nice Maarselok set, which should do decent damage on heavy attack proc. But WHY the hell it requires melee heavy attack? Do you see anybody who use melee heavy attack? No? NO! Because only restoration staff and lightning staff are viable for HA builds. Who needs empower on uppercut? Oops noone need it again, but in case someone is excited just forget it because 5 second duration!

I want to use poison damage set, but there is zero poison damage sets, that do damage? Why? Because noone cares about poison damage sets since Skyrim. Anyone can check and see that there is nothing non-trial comparable with pillar of nirn, poison or whatever else. Any poison damage sets is far less effective, any another set too, well maybe except unleashed terror for WWs in certain case. Anyway game have 100500 dungeons, 300000000 overland sets and ZERO of them even comparable to pillar of nirn for 99% builds. Well, runecarver is, but its new and good not for all, may be nerfed soon tho..

I can continue to write this little nails to gameplay coffin like forever... Once I played Guild wars game (1st one).
There you had 100 skills to combine whatever you like. It was best horizontal building I ever met and it still is. But ESO have vertical building and it is a waste. WoW had same, then they realize characters do to much damage in pvp and introduced resilence. Last year ESO devs realized same thing - to much damage. Guess why? Right, because vertical building, when new content always does more damage. Make alternatives please! Building its not about to buy your latest trading goods, guys.

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul

Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

• Minor Berserk - This basically accounts for Camo Hunter and since you are losing a bar, seems fair to get this one. Combat Prayer also gives it if you have a competent Healer, but many players source it themselves since Healers can be unreliable.
• Minor Courage - Not sure why this buff is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's more of a set bonus item given out to the group, not sourced BY THE PLAYER specifically. Perhaps this WD/SD could be considered comparable to a backbar Weapon Damage Enchant proc? Hmm, I could see this buff as being OK with that consideration. Unfortunate that it has to be a named buff since an un-named WD/SD buff would make more sense to me.
• Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery - These seem entirely fine. They are very common, with tons of skill sources, accessible by most classes AND sourced by the player. Seems fair that 100% uptime is given with the tradeoff that specific skills aren't needed to get these.
• Minor Force - Ok, so this is basically a replacement for Barbed Trap. Typically players don't get to run Barbed Trap AND Camo Hunter... but Minor Berserk is already kinda redundant in with a good healer... Seems a bit excessive; pushing Oakensoul away from top tier, but making it stronger in the mid tier... sus on this one.
• Minor Protection - Ok, so this is more of a replacement for Bound Armor, Bone Totem, Circle of Protection (for newer players), maybe Ice Fortress... even a bit redundant with Templars Spear Wall passive. I'm ok with this one. Lots of classes have access to this buff, sourced from skills they can no longer fit, and 100% uptime seems like a decent benefit here
• Major Resolve - Seems like a replacement for DKs Spiked Armor, Templar Rune Focus, Lightning Form, Bone Armor, and Frost Cloak. Again, lots of classes have access to this one, usually sourced from skills that the user no longer needs to use, so it may be ok for now.
• Minor Mending - Not sure why this one is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's rather rare in its availability at all, mostly being allocated to 5 piece set bonuses or limited usage. The 100% uptime here is rather strong given where players could get this otherwise.
• Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance - Again, these seem a bit out of place. These are primarily only accessible to Templar and Warden, and even there they are shared buffs, given out to the group; IOW, not sourced BY THE PLAYER for their exclusive use. This gives Oakensoul much better solo play (which is fine), while also making classes that give these buffs kind of redundant in higher level play, if many Oakensoul users are in the group. May be a step too far but it depends on the group size I think.
• Minor Heroism - Not sure what this one is doing here; this is yet another "rare" buff primarily obtained from 5 piece set bonuses or Heroic Slash. I can understand that an Oakensoul Tank can now drop Heroic Slash as an upside. But Heroism is not unimportant to other roles that can run Oakensoul and those roles also get 100% uptime on this buff they otherwise would not have access to at all; even from skills! Seems like total overkill.
• Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis - This is only a replacement for Trial gear set bonuses. This does sound nice given that Oakensoul is going to limit the players access to sets. In non-Trial content like Arenas and Dungeons, it will make Oakensoul more formidable, giving players access to buffs they otherwise would not have, unless they first farmed the harder Trial content first. Seems more applicable to helping out new players.
• Empower - This is a rather widely accessible buff. Many classes have access to it and with only 1 bar, it makes sense that players wouldn't need to run skills to get access to it. However, looking at the access to Empower, you see that most of the time, the duration is severely limited. Oakensoul gives 100% uptime; no need to burn an action or waste time sourcing it. That being said, Empower is ONLY for HAs... so it isn't really that beneficial to players not taking advantage of it. That would kind of seem like it balances out... HOWEVER, for dedicated HA builds, its a serious advantage to have 100% uptime on +80% damage!

The take aways are:

1. Oakensoul is blending roles access to specific buffs. Traditional Tank skill buffs are now going to users that may be DPS. Healer abilities are now getting access by Tanks. That can be fine, but it should be considered a positive attribute of Oakensoul. Especially when traditional DPS skill buffs are not lacking as a tradeoff and even traditional support buffs (Heroism, Intellect, Endurance) are still highly applicable to DPS roles. IOW, it's all upside. Also, this makes me feel like Oakensoul is meant for more solo play, but that's just a feeling.
2. There also seemed to be a major focus on higher end gameplay with Oakensoul. Many of the buffs provided are indeed redundant in high level game play like Trials, leading to a natural ceiling in high level gameplay. But those same buffs are rather rare in the mid level gameplay, like vet dungeons that are restricted to only 4 players. I think this makes Oakensoul a natural predator in small group content while being rather redundant and mild in large group content. Something we previously saw with Ring of the Pale Order before group size was incorporated... But more over, Oakensoul is only redundant because of the support bonuses. When group composition utilizing Oakensoul reaches critical mass, then support goes and does something else, making Oakensoul no longer redundant! A strong, attributed to well coordinated, high level groups AND solo/small groups.
3. Looking at all the buffs available, I count at least 7-8 skills being replaced by Oakensoul; far more than a single bar can account for. Then, there are the 5 piece set bonuses thrown on top and Oakensoul seem to feel like it's a bit overloaded given it's intention. That being said, the lack of a second bar should also be a DPS drop, as well as losing other unique buffs from Skills. It's a balancing act for sure.
4. Empower is such a weird buff. The builds that care about it, love it and need it. But the builds that don't use HAs, get absolutely nothing from having it. This is unique amongst all the buffs here! Every other buff is entirely relevant regardless of how you use Oakensoul, except for Empower. I get that without it, 1 bar builds would have to take a skill slot to gain access to Empower and Oakensoul is easing that pressure since they only have 5 skills to play with! But... it's such a niche buff that it almost feels like niche builds (like HA builds) should be sourcing that themselves.

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism & Minor Mending removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul, or maybe reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other builds using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff. I don't see the necessity for Oakensoul to hand out a niche buff like Empower and feel that Oakensoul should have more universally applicable buffs.

ALTERNATIVELY, and possibly better IMO, I could see Oakensoul going the same way as Ring of the Pale Order. Based on the group size of the player, different minor buffs could become active/de-active. Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

I will add one thing - Queen's Elegance Armor, from Auridon can give you the equivalent of 100% uptime on Empower... and as a light set, also boosts crit and Penetration, due to those passives.
Anytime you do damage, it procs for 3 seconds, but can also proc once a second, so as long as you continue to do damage, you get it. Which, heavy attacks do.....

In my experience, both using it, and NOT using it --- the problem seems more in the way that Lightning and Restoration staves work. In that each pulse gives a chance at crit, etc.....
Without Oakensoul, I was using Critical Surge to get the 20% damage, and looking at my logs, I see that 3300 healing from crits hitting EVERY second throughout fights..... and I had a 60% chance to crit, so it is most likely hitting that on each pulse, rather than the attack, as a whole, which is what shows with Flame Staff, Ice Staff, 2-Handed, and Duel Wield.
When I switched it over to the Restoration Staff, I got both the 3300 every second, and the Passive healing from the restoration line every other second....
That made me a LOT more tanky, than even base Oakensoul, as I was healing for more than I could lose, constantly, and as an Imperial, I am sitting with 31K health, with my Undaunted passives, as well as racial ones.

Even things that were normally, one shot kills weren't really stopping me, as I'd be up so fast, I didn't have to worry.
This got even more obvious, when I swapped my second armor sets around, such as those that proc on overhealing, or those that do area blasts based on me initiating damage.... I came, several times, within 70% of my cleave damage, with that restoration staff......

I honestly believe the issue is in how the pulses are being calculated, as I had my HA build a year before High Isle existed.... and even then, Lightning dominated over all others.....

I do like the idea of the Pale Order Treatment, and will second the removal of Heroism and Mending...... there are plenty of sources for mending in other skills and sets, and I would like to see the game move past the idea that there are only 4 best sets, and the rest are trash.
I'd even support combining those - remove those 2 buffs, and do the Pale Order treatment where the defensive ones drop.
At that point, it is an accessability option, and can be matched by a dual bar design, with identical skills on both, as long as you slot something that gives Brutality, like Crit Surge, Igneous Weapon, etc.... and empower, which any person can get from the mages guild, or Queens Elegance. If you go for any of the Magelight skills, you also get Savagery, and that just makes your crits more numerous.

In the end, I think the true issue is in how the pulses are being seen by the code, and proccing issues from that.....


Auldwulfe

Oakensoul needs to get nerfed hard. Currently theres no point using any other build unless you are among the 0.0001% of players who can hit 130k. I hit slightly over 100k with 2 bar builds. But why get sweaty using both bars, trying to perfect weave and so on when you can just hold down 1 button and get pretty much the same result lol. Especially in harder, mechanic heavy content.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul

Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

• Minor Berserk - This basically accounts for Camo Hunter and since you are losing a bar, seems fair to get this one. Combat Prayer also gives it if you have a competent Healer, but many players source it themselves since Healers can be unreliable.
• Minor Courage - Not sure why this buff is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's more of a set bonus item given out to the group, not sourced BY THE PLAYER specifically. Perhaps this WD/SD could be considered comparable to a backbar Weapon Damage Enchant proc? Hmm, I could see this buff as being OK with that consideration. Unfortunate that it has to be a named buff since an un-named WD/SD buff would make more sense to me.
• Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery - These seem entirely fine. They are very common, with tons of skill sources, accessible by most classes AND sourced by the player. Seems fair that 100% uptime is given with the tradeoff that specific skills aren't needed to get these.
• Minor Force - Ok, so this is basically a replacement for Barbed Trap. Typically players don't get to run Barbed Trap AND Camo Hunter... but Minor Berserk is already kinda redundant in with a good healer... Seems a bit excessive; pushing Oakensoul away from top tier, but making it stronger in the mid tier... sus on this one.
• Minor Protection - Ok, so this is more of a replacement for Bound Armor, Bone Totem, Circle of Protection (for newer players), maybe Ice Fortress... even a bit redundant with Templars Spear Wall passive. I'm ok with this one. Lots of classes have access to this buff, sourced from skills they can no longer fit, and 100% uptime seems like a decent benefit here
• Major Resolve - Seems like a replacement for DKs Spiked Armor, Templar Rune Focus, Lightning Form, Bone Armor, and Frost Cloak. Again, lots of classes have access to this one, usually sourced from skills that the user no longer needs to use, so it may be ok for now.
• Minor Mending - Not sure why this one is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's rather rare in its availability at all, mostly being allocated to 5 piece set bonuses or limited usage. The 100% uptime here is rather strong given where players could get this otherwise.
• Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance - Again, these seem a bit out of place. These are primarily only accessible to Templar and Warden, and even there they are shared buffs, given out to the group; IOW, not sourced BY THE PLAYER for their exclusive use. This gives Oakensoul much better solo play (which is fine), while also making classes that give these buffs kind of redundant in higher level play, if many Oakensoul users are in the group. May be a step too far but it depends on the group size I think.
• Minor Heroism - Not sure what this one is doing here; this is yet another "rare" buff primarily obtained from 5 piece set bonuses or Heroic Slash. I can understand that an Oakensoul Tank can now drop Heroic Slash as an upside. But Heroism is not unimportant to other roles that can run Oakensoul and those roles also get 100% uptime on this buff they otherwise would not have access to at all; even from skills! Seems like total overkill.
• Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis - This is only a replacement for Trial gear set bonuses. This does sound nice given that Oakensoul is going to limit the players access to sets. In non-Trial content like Arenas and Dungeons, it will make Oakensoul more formidable, giving players access to buffs they otherwise would not have, unless they first farmed the harder Trial content first. Seems more applicable to helping out new players.
• Empower - This is a rather widely accessible buff. Many classes have access to it and with only 1 bar, it makes sense that players wouldn't need to run skills to get access to it. However, looking at the access to Empower, you see that most of the time, the duration is severely limited. Oakensoul gives 100% uptime; no need to burn an action or waste time sourcing it. That being said, Empower is ONLY for HAs... so it isn't really that beneficial to players not taking advantage of it. That would kind of seem like it balances out... HOWEVER, for dedicated HA builds, its a serious advantage to have 100% uptime on +80% damage!

The take aways are:

1. Oakensoul is blending roles access to specific buffs. Traditional Tank skill buffs are now going to users that may be DPS. Healer abilities are now getting access by Tanks. That can be fine, but it should be considered a positive attribute of Oakensoul. Especially when traditional DPS skill buffs are not lacking as a tradeoff and even traditional support buffs (Heroism, Intellect, Endurance) are still highly applicable to DPS roles. IOW, it's all upside. Also, this makes me feel like Oakensoul is meant for more solo play, but that's just a feeling.
2. There also seemed to be a major focus on higher end gameplay with Oakensoul. Many of the buffs provided are indeed redundant in high level game play like Trials, leading to a natural ceiling in high level gameplay. But those same buffs are rather rare in the mid level gameplay, like vet dungeons that are restricted to only 4 players. I think this makes Oakensoul a natural predator in small group content while being rather redundant and mild in large group content. Something we previously saw with Ring of the Pale Order before group size was incorporated... But more over, Oakensoul is only redundant because of the support bonuses. When group composition utilizing Oakensoul reaches critical mass, then support goes and does something else, making Oakensoul no longer redundant! A strong, attributed to well coordinated, high level groups AND solo/small groups.
3. Looking at all the buffs available, I count at least 7-8 skills being replaced by Oakensoul; far more than a single bar can account for. Then, there are the 5 piece set bonuses thrown on top and Oakensoul seem to feel like it's a bit overloaded given it's intention. That being said, the lack of a second bar should also be a DPS drop, as well as losing other unique buffs from Skills. It's a balancing act for sure.
4. Empower is such a weird buff. The builds that care about it, love it and need it. But the builds that don't use HAs, get absolutely nothing from having it. This is unique amongst all the buffs here! Every other buff is entirely relevant regardless of how you use Oakensoul, except for Empower. I get that without it, 1 bar builds would have to take a skill slot to gain access to Empower and Oakensoul is easing that pressure since they only have 5 skills to play with! But... it's such a niche buff that it almost feels like niche builds (like HA builds) should be sourcing that themselves.

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism & Minor Mending removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul, or maybe reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other builds using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff. I don't see the necessity for Oakensoul to hand out a niche buff like Empower and feel that Oakensoul should have more universally applicable buffs.

ALTERNATIVELY, and possibly better IMO, I could see Oakensoul going the same way as Ring of the Pale Order. Based on the group size of the player, different minor buffs could become active/de-active. Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

I will add one thing - Queen's Elegance Armor, from Auridon can give you the equivalent of 100% uptime on Empower... and as a light set, also boosts crit and Penetration, due to those passives.
Anytime you do damage, it procs for 3 seconds, but can also proc once a second, so as long as you continue to do damage, you get it. Which, heavy attacks do.....

In my experience, both using it, and NOT using it --- the problem seems more in the way that Lightning and Restoration staves work. In that each pulse gives a chance at crit, etc.....
Without Oakensoul, I was using Critical Surge to get the 20% damage, and looking at my logs, I see that 3300 healing from crits hitting EVERY second throughout fights..... and I had a 60% chance to crit, so it is most likely hitting that on each pulse, rather than the attack, as a whole, which is what shows with Flame Staff, Ice Staff, 2-Handed, and Duel Wield.
When I switched it over to the Restoration Staff, I got both the 3300 every second, and the Passive healing from the restoration line every other second....
That made me a LOT more tanky, than even base Oakensoul, as I was healing for more than I could lose, constantly, and as an Imperial, I am sitting with 31K health, with my Undaunted passives, as well as racial ones.

Even things that were normally, one shot kills weren't really stopping me, as I'd be up so fast, I didn't have to worry.
This got even more obvious, when I swapped my second armor sets around, such as those that proc on overhealing, or those that do area blasts based on me initiating damage.... I came, several times, within 70% of my cleave damage, with that restoration staff......

I honestly believe the issue is in how the pulses are being calculated, as I had my HA build a year before High Isle existed.... and even then, Lightning dominated over all others.....

I do like the idea of the Pale Order Treatment, and will second the removal of Heroism and Mending...... there are plenty of sources for mending in other skills and sets, and I would like to see the game move past the idea that there are only 4 best sets, and the rest are trash.
I'd even support combining those - remove those 2 buffs, and do the Pale Order treatment where the defensive ones drop.
At that point, it is an accessability option, and can be matched by a dual bar design, with identical skills on both, as long as you slot something that gives Brutality, like Crit Surge, Igneous Weapon, etc.... and empower, which any person can get from the mages guild, or Queens Elegance. If you go for any of the Magelight skills, you also get Savagery, and that just makes your crits more numerous.

In the end, I think the true issue is in how the pulses are being seen by the code, and proccing issues from that.....


Auldwulfe

I really think they need to adjust Queens Elegance. Im not sure that most players could reliably keep Empower up 100% of the time and keep up the other buffs from OS as well. Any two abilities plus the channel eats the entire duration. We're essentially talking about 2 global cool downs and the channel required to proc it again to keep the buffs up. A heal, roll dodge, mechanic, rez, all eat that timer. If they want to make QE more attractive when comparing it to OS they should increase that timer a little bit.

Agenericname wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul

Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

• Minor Berserk - This basically accounts for Camo Hunter and since you are losing a bar, seems fair to get this one. Combat Prayer also gives it if you have a competent Healer, but many players source it themselves since Healers can be unreliable.
• Minor Courage - Not sure why this buff is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's more of a set bonus item given out to the group, not sourced BY THE PLAYER specifically. Perhaps this WD/SD could be considered comparable to a backbar Weapon Damage Enchant proc? Hmm, I could see this buff as being OK with that consideration. Unfortunate that it has to be a named buff since an un-named WD/SD buff would make more sense to me.
• Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery - These seem entirely fine. They are very common, with tons of skill sources, accessible by most classes AND sourced by the player. Seems fair that 100% uptime is given with the tradeoff that specific skills aren't needed to get these.
• Minor Force - Ok, so this is basically a replacement for Barbed Trap. Typically players don't get to run Barbed Trap AND Camo Hunter... but Minor Berserk is already kinda redundant in with a good healer... Seems a bit excessive; pushing Oakensoul away from top tier, but making it stronger in the mid tier... sus on this one.
• Minor Protection - Ok, so this is more of a replacement for Bound Armor, Bone Totem, Circle of Protection (for newer players), maybe Ice Fortress... even a bit redundant with Templars Spear Wall passive. I'm ok with this one. Lots of classes have access to this buff, sourced from skills they can no longer fit, and 100% uptime seems like a decent benefit here
• Major Resolve - Seems like a replacement for DKs Spiked Armor, Templar Rune Focus, Lightning Form, Bone Armor, and Frost Cloak. Again, lots of classes have access to this one, usually sourced from skills that the user no longer needs to use, so it may be ok for now.
• Minor Mending - Not sure why this one is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's rather rare in its availability at all, mostly being allocated to 5 piece set bonuses or limited usage. The 100% uptime here is rather strong given where players could get this otherwise.
• Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance - Again, these seem a bit out of place. These are primarily only accessible to Templar and Warden, and even there they are shared buffs, given out to the group; IOW, not sourced BY THE PLAYER for their exclusive use. This gives Oakensoul much better solo play (which is fine), while also making classes that give these buffs kind of redundant in higher level play, if many Oakensoul users are in the group. May be a step too far but it depends on the group size I think.
• Minor Heroism - Not sure what this one is doing here; this is yet another "rare" buff primarily obtained from 5 piece set bonuses or Heroic Slash. I can understand that an Oakensoul Tank can now drop Heroic Slash as an upside. But Heroism is not unimportant to other roles that can run Oakensoul and those roles also get 100% uptime on this buff they otherwise would not have access to at all; even from skills! Seems like total overkill.
• Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis - This is only a replacement for Trial gear set bonuses. This does sound nice given that Oakensoul is going to limit the players access to sets. In non-Trial content like Arenas and Dungeons, it will make Oakensoul more formidable, giving players access to buffs they otherwise would not have, unless they first farmed the harder Trial content first. Seems more applicable to helping out new players.
• Empower - This is a rather widely accessible buff. Many classes have access to it and with only 1 bar, it makes sense that players wouldn't need to run skills to get access to it. However, looking at the access to Empower, you see that most of the time, the duration is severely limited. Oakensoul gives 100% uptime; no need to burn an action or waste time sourcing it. That being said, Empower is ONLY for HAs... so it isn't really that beneficial to players not taking advantage of it. That would kind of seem like it balances out... HOWEVER, for dedicated HA builds, its a serious advantage to have 100% uptime on +80% damage!

The take aways are:

1. Oakensoul is blending roles access to specific buffs. Traditional Tank skill buffs are now going to users that may be DPS. Healer abilities are now getting access by Tanks. That can be fine, but it should be considered a positive attribute of Oakensoul. Especially when traditional DPS skill buffs are not lacking as a tradeoff and even traditional support buffs (Heroism, Intellect, Endurance) are still highly applicable to DPS roles. IOW, it's all upside. Also, this makes me feel like Oakensoul is meant for more solo play, but that's just a feeling.
2. There also seemed to be a major focus on higher end gameplay with Oakensoul. Many of the buffs provided are indeed redundant in high level game play like Trials, leading to a natural ceiling in high level gameplay. But those same buffs are rather rare in the mid level gameplay, like vet dungeons that are restricted to only 4 players. I think this makes Oakensoul a natural predator in small group content while being rather redundant and mild in large group content. Something we previously saw with Ring of the Pale Order before group size was incorporated... But more over, Oakensoul is only redundant because of the support bonuses. When group composition utilizing Oakensoul reaches critical mass, then support goes and does something else, making Oakensoul no longer redundant! A strong, attributed to well coordinated, high level groups AND solo/small groups.
3. Looking at all the buffs available, I count at least 7-8 skills being replaced by Oakensoul; far more than a single bar can account for. Then, there are the 5 piece set bonuses thrown on top and Oakensoul seem to feel like it's a bit overloaded given it's intention. That being said, the lack of a second bar should also be a DPS drop, as well as losing other unique buffs from Skills. It's a balancing act for sure.
4. Empower is such a weird buff. The builds that care about it, love it and need it. But the builds that don't use HAs, get absolutely nothing from having it. This is unique amongst all the buffs here! Every other buff is entirely relevant regardless of how you use Oakensoul, except for Empower. I get that without it, 1 bar builds would have to take a skill slot to gain access to Empower and Oakensoul is easing that pressure since they only have 5 skills to play with! But... it's such a niche buff that it almost feels like niche builds (like HA builds) should be sourcing that themselves.

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism & Minor Mending removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul, or maybe reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other builds using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff. I don't see the necessity for Oakensoul to hand out a niche buff like Empower and feel that Oakensoul should have more universally applicable buffs.

ALTERNATIVELY, and possibly better IMO, I could see Oakensoul going the same way as Ring of the Pale Order. Based on the group size of the player, different minor buffs could become active/de-active. Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

I will add one thing - Queen's Elegance Armor, from Auridon can give you the equivalent of 100% uptime on Empower... and as a light set, also boosts crit and Penetration, due to those passives.
Anytime you do damage, it procs for 3 seconds, but can also proc once a second, so as long as you continue to do damage, you get it. Which, heavy attacks do.....

In my experience, both using it, and NOT using it --- the problem seems more in the way that Lightning and Restoration staves work. In that each pulse gives a chance at crit, etc.....
Without Oakensoul, I was using Critical Surge to get the 20% damage, and looking at my logs, I see that 3300 healing from crits hitting EVERY second throughout fights..... and I had a 60% chance to crit, so it is most likely hitting that on each pulse, rather than the attack, as a whole, which is what shows with Flame Staff, Ice Staff, 2-Handed, and Duel Wield.
When I switched it over to the Restoration Staff, I got both the 3300 every second, and the Passive healing from the restoration line every other second....
That made me a LOT more tanky, than even base Oakensoul, as I was healing for more than I could lose, constantly, and as an Imperial, I am sitting with 31K health, with my Undaunted passives, as well as racial ones.

Even things that were normally, one shot kills weren't really stopping me, as I'd be up so fast, I didn't have to worry.
This got even more obvious, when I swapped my second armor sets around, such as those that proc on overhealing, or those that do area blasts based on me initiating damage.... I came, several times, within 70% of my cleave damage, with that restoration staff......

I honestly believe the issue is in how the pulses are being calculated, as I had my HA build a year before High Isle existed.... and even then, Lightning dominated over all others.....

I do like the idea of the Pale Order Treatment, and will second the removal of Heroism and Mending...... there are plenty of sources for mending in other skills and sets, and I would like to see the game move past the idea that there are only 4 best sets, and the rest are trash.
I'd even support combining those - remove those 2 buffs, and do the Pale Order treatment where the defensive ones drop.
At that point, it is an accessability option, and can be matched by a dual bar design, with identical skills on both, as long as you slot something that gives Brutality, like Crit Surge, Igneous Weapon, etc.... and empower, which any person can get from the mages guild, or Queens Elegance. If you go for any of the Magelight skills, you also get Savagery, and that just makes your crits more numerous.

In the end, I think the true issue is in how the pulses are being seen by the code, and proccing issues from that.....


Auldwulfe

I really think they need to adjust Queens Elegance. Im not sure that most players could reliably keep Empower up 100% of the time and keep up the other buffs from OS as well. Any two abilities plus the channel eats the entire duration. We're essentially talking about 2 global cool downs and the channel required to proc it again to keep the buffs up. A heal, roll dodge, mechanic, rez, all eat that timer. If they want to make QE more attractive when comparing it to OS they should increase that timer a little bit.

I understand that, but according to the Oakensoul haters, you don't have to do that, anyways.... they seem to think that you can log in, stand around in whatever city you park in, and hold your mouse button down, and suddenly endeavors and titles fall from the sky .....

I have repeatedly heard them say that people don't have to learn mechanics, because they are "too tanky".....
In my experience, those are usually the splatters on the floor that add so much "hominess" to the dungeons and trials..... but irrational dislike for something doesn't always lend itself to clear thinking.

Fun fact, I didn't want, or see a need for Oakensoul .... and I am still of the mind that while a neat niche tool... it's fairly easy to duplicate most everything it gives with a mix of sets, monster sets, etc.
In my experience, the problem is more the interaction of HA attack sets with channeled HA weapons, like lightning and restoration .... as I believe it's stacking on the pulse, rather than the whole attack, as would happen with every other weapon.
Nerfing a ring isn't going to do anything to stop that issue....... but it will make your older and less twitch capable players go looking at other games, taking their subscription money with them.

ZOS did say that they wanted to change combat so that people weren't zoomed in so far, staring at bars to keep the button mashing right, that they missed the rest... and honestly, I see the current usage of 2 bars to be pretty much an exploit in what was intended, vs what had been done, anyways. I always saw it as you do in paper and table games.....
You have your primary weapon... but in situations, you use a secondary, as it works better.... can't stab the goblin that's 20 feet away, but you can use a bow....etc.

Instead, it got turned into "we can use that second bar to buff the first bar, forcing every situation into the user's preferred method of just winning"... which, to be honest, is going to happen in ANY game. People will develop a way they like.... and once they have their hammer, all problems are nails.

Honestly, there are several solutions... but I already see people screaming. I would, if they nerfed Oakensoul, which would harm the players that do need it.... suggest they also nerf the system so that switching bars ends any buff, dot, or hot from the now off bar... if the bar isn't in effect, neither are things on it. They already do it with Sorc and Warden pets... why can't the other skills experience the same joy and happiness?

But, that would destroy 2 bar builds, and make it so you can't play the game? That's pretty much what nerfing Oakensoul would do to those that need it.... and as has been proven in this, and MANY other threads... you not only don't need oakensoul to make an abusive one bar build... it's ridiculously easy to make it with identical bars... which would also circumvent my other solution, above. The issue isn't the ring, it's in how some sets stack and are seen in the code..... it was there before the ring, and some people did use it, already... I was one of them..... we just didn't crow on and on about our 65k - 85K damage, as others were busy shouting about their 130K... but it was just fine, it worked, and didn't change much, if at all, after U35... if I account for skill and experience, I am pretty much in the same identical place I was before U35. And I did predict that to friends... it would nerf the middle, harm the bottom, and the top people would have work arounds in a few hours..... those in the middle, after a few weeks..... the rest would suffer, and most would leave.... which they did.


The thing is, the top players will practice those builds on the PTS, and then go back to live a week or so before the patch, and grind out the equipment they already tested, using the meta sets to get the new, before the meta changed. And that, is just as much of an exploit, as well, as they get to test and gear up for new patches before the patch drops..... console players can't do that, nor those that don't have the money to have the ability to run the PTS as well as the normal game...... so how is that NOT pay to win, in that case? If we are going to claim that buying High Isle, and either being ESO+ or having purchased several DLC's... all requirements to get Oakensoul, is "Pay to Win"... then being able to practice on the PTS is also "Pay to Win"

That said, I do agree that a couple of the buffs on Oakensoul do not make sense.... in that they could be removed without changing the effect of the ring for those that need it... Aegis... not really needed.
Mending comes from many skills, and Heroism can be gotten from other sets, like Corsair's.... so taking it off could encourage more build styles......

In the end, what it has accomplished is shaking up the "Pillars of Nirn Holy Build" opposed to the "lesser" builds meta that has been running for so long. It is allowing people the option of trying out other sets, and other play styles, while still having enough cushion to see what works for them, and what doesn't...... yes, the people that spam one method of play will abuse the advantages.... people in Star Trek Online do it with certain weapons... people in Mechwarrior Online love to spam missiles, etc.... did the game change things, yes... but just like Oakensoul, it's easy for competitive gamers to find a work around... and go right back to one method smash.....

Unfortunately, that is the nature of ANY online game....... removing Oakensoul, right now, would do nothing to change that.....

Auldwulfe

(honestly can't tell if the forum has an autocorrect that gets creative, or my age and slight tremor are catching up to me more than I thought)

Agenericname wrote: »

@Auldwulfe
I don't think that they need to nerf it. There should be balance though.

We make comparisons between 1 bar Oakensoul builds and 2 bar builds, but we typically compare a ranged 1 bar build to what is essentially a 2 bar melee build. How does a 2 bar build with staves or bows stack up against an Oakensoul build?

For most of the player base the 2 bar staff/bow builds wont do as well. It would require a fairly high level of mastery to perform as well in the content as Oakensoul does now. It shouldnt be that steep. I think that the scaling to LA was an attempt to smooth that transition.

And to your point, you cant truly source all of those buffs, but of those that you can, some still require a GCD to proc the buff. Any GCD used is going to be damage lost. The only set that I am aware of that would give Empower is the one you listed, and its weak compared to it. So if we are comparing apples to apples, a set up like that would have less uptime with Empower and most of the buffs sourced through other abilities as well. That would put Oakensoul in a better place for anyone below a certain mastery threshold, at that threshold seems a bit high.

Thats not really to say that Oakensoul needs to be nerfed, its saying that the alternatives aren't as good as they should/could be.

I agree, removing or significantly altering the ring would be noisy at best and detrimental most likely. Noisier than it is already.

Thing is, I wanted to test it myself, as I was NOT a fan of Oakensoul, at first .... so, I went with Sergeant's mail in jewelry and weapon, Order's wrath all in light, for crit and pen - Slime Craw, in medium for the 4% damage boost off the armor, on top of the 5% for having it.

For skills, I took Critical Surge, one of the Magelight morphs (honestly, just for the empower), Daedric Prey, and both pets --- and I did duplicate sets and skills on BOTH bars... solely because I tend to tap my mouse button when I move, and didn't want to go to an empty bar.... but identical bars is just a one bar with an echo...... Mundus was thief, and the usual passives, on an Imperial with my attributs all in Magicka -- so about 38K magicka, 29K health, and 18K stamina, with the Undaunted passives, and 2 armor types ......

Not only does Critical Surge have a 33 second uptime, but a VERY visual graphic to let you know..... as you are coated in lightning... and whenever the floating light ball went, I hit my magelight... so about every 5 or 6 seconds, and empower, there has a 10 second uptime.... and, you can queue skills while doing a heavy attack.... and in the end, with crit making up the difference, I actually only average about 3500 less damage overall, on a parse, and maybe 1200 less in actual combat logs.
However, I heal a LOT more, as that critical surge is proccing every second.... so I regenerate 3300 health a second with it.... the rotation is a bit slower than it was when I was using oakensoul....

The only difference was that it was EASIER for me to tank my way through things, as I have, more or less, a permanent HOT going the whole time, I actually died more, going back to Oakensoul, for more testing, because I kept forgetting to watch my health as much.....

I did think this was a possibility with U35.... that once things were on a base level, that we would see a change in the dynamic of combat, and maybe even a diversity of builds past the current 3 meta sets, and nothing else .... Pillars of Nirn is STILL the king of sets..... but I am hoping that things can diverge further and further.... Oakensoul is a useful too, though, in that it teaches the benefits of the various buffs, and how they work...... and then you can decide what you need, and build from there.

Auldwulfe