And of course I don't really need Empower for how I play, but it does sound like since it synergizes really well with Oakensoul and the HA setup, it might affect that playstyle a lot.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Isn’t 100k DPS like the absolute maximum you can currently get with Oakensoul? I doubt most players using it are pulling that high DPS any more than 2 bar players. On a magsorc with lightning staff in Sergeant’s Mail, Storm Master and Oakensoul, proper traits and CP, I still only hit around 70k DPS on a trial dummy. I’m sure there’s something I can improve, but my point is that it still takes work to get optimal DPS with Oakensoul, even with what I think should be the easiest HA build with two pets.

Around 105k is a maximum You can get on a dummy with oakensoul as heavy attack setup. With dynamic rotation and light attack weaving You can get around 115k.

Yeah I got to about 110k on my second or third try on my sorc. I do weave all skills when I am not mashing the LMB, and its like 3 skills, so of course I am doing it dynamically.

Meanwhile, I am sweating bullets on my double staff mageblade to break 100k. That is the source of my personal frustration. I can still out parse my HA build on a Dynamic 2bar Sorc or DK with DW/2H, but I admittedly ask myself, why bother. Hence the frustration. Probably need to go farm some Runecarver, lol.

Nightblade thing kinda got me when reading. I'm mostly doing solely dungeons nowadays so my setup is mostly something like tzogvin/bahsei and it's capped at around 95k or quite similar number. I didn't even parsed for a year or two at all but was interested in my personal performance against Oaken recently with one pal of mine. When you're managing your resources being on an edge in content, whilst not relying on procs and other things and having a thought on a back about being able to do similarly or even lot better being tanky and with zero sustain issues is kinda burning my back thinking about optimisation I was worried years ago when was doing trials primarily so still have this itch for "perfection".

My first parse was 80k last patch, it felt like disaster, but after some adjustments to cp and my abilities for the parse this patch I'm kinda at around 90 (can reach 100 with dw, which I don't even run in content same as some dots) whilst semi dynamic Oaken doing 110+ just bit worse than pillar/rele stuff I'm not running, which is still less effort but at least with some downsides to it. It's not something huge for me, I'm fine with it as is as I'm in a way different playing field nowadays but can imagine frustration for people progressing and see how it could potentially kill part of new raiding audience in a long run because of that same things. You want your efforts to matter, same as I wanted to be THE best years and years ago living in a guild hall beside that blasted 6mil bone bstrd.

Surely some new people would come from Oaken, but mentality I see rn from them is passive toxicity and will to get there fast, grab whatever stuff and not be there ever again which isn't raiding mind at all. Same goes for adjusting mentality, you should be selfless team member first. Maybe it's my war machine/ma duty past leaking in.

... just ignore my nostalgia trip haha.

-Due to poor internet connection, the one second global cool down on abilities is not 1 second for me. It's between 2-3. I spent a year trying to perfect light attack builds before finally realizing I had wasted SO much time. I would never be able to reach the numbers of others do to my connection. Half of my clicks aren't registered when I operate at the speeds of many of the high end players.
-Because combat/dungeons, etc are my favorite content, I began losing interest in the game because there was no option for me to get near to where I wanted to be. I started mostly just logging in for a few hours when most of my friends are on.
-I found heavy attack builds and found more of my clicks registered because I was only queueing one ability half way through a heavy attack. Then the Oakensoul, etc and I got to where I couldn't get in the top tier with damage and my connection still affects things but I could actually do vet dungeons, etc.
-Imagine how many players also have poor connections. Then there are older individuals, people with disabilities, etc.

I really don't want these options taken away from myself or other individuals with limiting circumstances because some are so very upset that HA builds are way better than they were before. I wish everyone so against these builds could spend a day or so with my internet connection and see all their super high parses and dps melt away. Not because I wish them ill but just so they can gain a little perspective.

Just my opinion but I think ZOS will likely continue to explore new combat/build options as things inevitably need to be modernized. The over the top click-clicky with the absolute correct pauses in between click-clicky are starting to seem a bit dated. Giving players more options in the type of rotations they would like to engage in just enables more people to actually use and/or enjoy their content. Which translates to more people playing the game and providing revenue.

Please don't sentence people like me back to not being able to meaningfully engage with a lot of content just because my connection won't let me mash buttons as fast as others.

Wait a minute... "Entitlement" apart, Oakensoul has been added to the game and then tuned with Empower in the name of accessibility, whatever that means, be it impaired people, people with bad internet, or people with skill issues... (The link to Zos specific statement has already been put in this thread, I won't re-paste it) so here's my question:

If this specific item is meant to be an accessibility tool for cases in which the player needs to be particularly raised... Why should it be balanced and treated as if it was any other normal, regular piece of set? If that's the case, then it would do nothing special and not help that much the players it is made for... I am confused about this reasoning.

. This only special set adds 5 points, so if you have issues that force you to be at 2 you finally become 7
"But this way who's already at 7 goes over the top, neeeerf!"
. Now this set adds 3 points, so if you are forced at 2 now you are still at an insufficient 5, but if you already were a 7 you are just at a perfect 10 and you don't go over the top
"Nice!"

Obviously balancing is way more complex, this example is just for the sake of showing you how you're objections hit to an Oakensoul user...
If it's kinda meant to be an op item, let it be. Just saying...

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

Honestly, I'm fine with Empowered being remove on the ring without a bar swap ability.

I very, very, very emphatically am not.

Combat basically requires 3 sets of hand actions -- firing of skills, character movement, and everything else (basic attacks, blocks, bar swaps, grabbing synergies, whatever). Doing all that well with 2 hands can be ... challenging.

I play on the PC, and can make good use of a mouse with a FEW extra buttons, which I program to bar swap and so on. So I have one hand busy with skills, one with the mouse ... and that's it. Any time I have to move in combat, there's a massive loss in DPS. Except ...

... on a heavy attack sorcerer, I'm finally learning to move while shooting, perhaps better than I have in 20 years of previous MMO gaming (including ESO since open beta).

If that were taken away, I'd be sad.

@FrancisCrawford

For what it is worth, an MMO mouse would solve your problem. You arent the first person to say, I can parse, and I can move, but I can't parse and move. Its less of an issue on a controller because you can have your Left Thumb on a movement stick and your right thumb can be pressing skills (and occasionally making camera movements with the right stick), but on a traditional mouse keyboard, your left index, middle, and ring finger should not be trying to pull double duty between movement and skills if you want to pull elite damage in difficult content. Whether its right or wrong, it's reality.

I already addressed that in the post you quoted.

I do well with the four large and widely separated extra buttons on a Logitech 300 series mouse. That gets me bar swap, synergies, dodge backwards, and crouch.

(I actually seem to be more fluent with bar swap than many players otherwise much better than I am. For me this discussion is much more about heavy attack builds than 1-bar Oakensoul itself.)

But I don't do well with the tiny side keypads I've tried using to select among 6 active skills. (Nor are the central buttons on a G300 helpful in combat.)

@FrancisCrawford

Yeah, I get they aren't for everyone, but they were an absolute game changer for me. You said "Any time I have to move in combat, there's a massive loss in DPS. Except ...... on a heavy attack sorcerer." No Secret that is because on traditional mouse and keyboard setup your movement buttons and skill buttons use the same fingers. I think this accounts for a lot of people that stand in red while the parse (and die) if I am being honest. HA sorc removes the need to cast skills at the same rate, and most of your DPS is coming from your right index finger, so no surprise it works better.

Razer has a few options that might fit your eye. I used to go all logitech, but for gaming, Razer makes good stuff. I like the 12 button, but they also have a 7 button in more of a wheel shaped pattern. The buttons are a little bigger and would get all your skills there. Just a thought.

IMO, things like synergies and crouch are okay on your left hand movement fingers, but I am a firm believer in all of your skill buttons under your right thumb. Personally, I have 5 skills, dodge, break free, and quickslots, under my right thumb. I use my left thumb to bar swap. I can do a full parse with only my R index finger and R+L thumb. That means I can do my full rotation independently from movement.

That all makes sense, and confirms what I thought about how other people play. I just have a huge difference in the agility of my fingers and my thumbs, which I've never successfully trained away. I'm an excellent typist on conventional keyboards, but have never succeeded at typing on a phone with my thumbs. I used to be a decent violinist, but never played the piano. And if I did manage to use a Razer-like mouse, I'd need to hold my mouse hand a little differently than I now do which would raise issues with my wrist as well.

axi wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I am not making any statement about what should or should not happen. I am saying that some players are displeased with the fact they are reaching similar DPS by working harder to stay alive and manage their sustain.

Opposite wasn't a truth for a long time for one bar heavy attacks players. DPS of that setups was high enough to participate in almost everything even before oakensoul arrival. They were not forced to play with two bar dynamic rotations it was either their choice or lack of knowledge that there is another way.

Agreed to the first part.

In the second paragraph you lose me compared to what you stated in your earlier post.

A player that wants to play to the best of their capability does not mean that they prefer a two bar build. In the current meta, players need to use two bars in a majority of fights to maximize their performance. So saying that two bar players may feel that they are forced to change to a one bar build, could be done for a player that prefers a one bar build. They are forced to use the two bar build even if they do not like it.

I must disagree with Your statement that "players need to use two bars in a majority of fights to maximize their performance". It's highly dependant what do You mean by majority of fights. It can be truth only if we are talking theoritically about fights in fully optimised teams full of above the average players. Majority of group content is done by less optimised groups and in runs like that even good player may find he will be more effective with oakensoul one bar heavy attack setup that with regular two bar setup because of range, defense, sustain, simplicity and AoE dmg that setup provides.

I think we are in agreement here. If a player want to perform at a theoretical best, two bar builds have a higher ceiling. That does not mean that all players can reach that ceiling, and as you say, many players may perform better with a one bar build.

That makes sense, and I cannot see a problem with this. One bar vs two bar should really be with regards to personal preference. Some really like a piano build utilizing a lot of skills, and some prefer a setup with less skills to juggle. Neither is a more correct or inherently better way to play the game.

In my opinion oakensoul is great accessibility in solo/duo where not all buffs are available. But it might very well be that e.g. the defensive buffs on oakensoul is a bit overtuned for playing in larger groups.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

How does one item with a ton of free buffs (that were normally locked behind many different sets, (as well as some skills) with different varying levels of difficulty in acquiring each of them) affect other players... at what point? This point? Well it still affects them, of course, lol

You have one item with a wide range of power and you're asking how it affects other players.

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

How does one item with a ton of free buffs (that were normally locked behind many different sets, (as well as some skills) with different varying levels of difficulty in acquiring each of them) affect other players... at what point? This point? Well it still affects them, of course, lol

You have one item with a wide range of power and you're asking how it affects other players.

Yes, I am doing so. [snip]

Well, actually, it does affect other players one groups with. For example, I have completed tougher content when duoing with my wife @DarcyMardin that ever before, because the Oakensoul Ring is making her more effective. Also, it has revived her interest in playing the game, which means I again have a duo partner in the first place, so I'm playing more too ...

... and I guess us playing more could negatively affect server performance for you. Is this the problem you want to solve? Does it disturb you that people play who otherwise might not, cluttering the servers? I guess that could affect you somewhat, but it would seem pretty selfish if that were your concern.

[edited for baiting]

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

How does one item with a ton of free buffs (that were normally locked behind many different sets, (as well as some skills) with different varying levels of difficulty in acquiring each of them) affect other players... at what point? This point? Well it still affects them, of course, lol

You have one item with a wide range of power and you're asking how it affects other players.

Yes, I am doing so. [snip]

Well, actually, it does affect other players one groups with. For example, I have completed tougher content when duoing with my wife @DarcyMardin that ever before, because the Oakensoul Ring is making her more effective. Also, it has revived her interest in playing the game, which means I again have a duo partner in the first place, so I'm playing more too ...

... and I guess us playing more could negatively affect server performance for you. Is this the problem you want to solve? Does it disturb you that people play who otherwise might not, cluttering the servers? I guess that could affect you somewhat, but it would seem pretty selfish if that were your concern.

Well said, i wish to also add on to this user as my mates and i returned to ESO because of the Oakensoul builds. Crazy right?, well we play from Australia 🇦🇺 and deal with some pretty annoying and bs lag, packet loss and invisible deaths. We had a build back in 2014 - 2015 area that worked super well for us without bar swapping and it was nerfed into the ground and annoyingly so.

We ended up giving up on ESO and that really sucked as we are insane fans of Elder Scrolls games. We grew up with Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. It was a shame that between the lag, packet loss, bar swapping and light weaving we just had no other choice.

The Oakensoul builds have allowed us to return and actually enjoy content, alot of content actually that we never could before and enjoy all the new content. We are even able to do and enjoy end game content now without been a burden to our American guildies.

Why would anyone want to take that away from us?. Nerfing the Oakensoul builds would just force us to go away once more until ither we get an Oceania server or another way to keep up and not leech.

Instead of looking at Oakensoul builds as bad because they can put out serious dps that allows us to enjoy end game content with two bar builds. Why not look foward to more mythics that can allow more players to access the end game?. A new mythic could be on it's way that makes light weaving automatically occur between attacks?, or a mythic that makes bows into heavy sniper with true damage one bars? Heck could see bows gaining explosive payloads from a mythic that adds a massive aoe to their kit from all abilities.

Fact is, us been able to enjoy all the content should have zero impact on others. I would also like to add that ESO hasn't had a good population count, what happens within a year or two when it keeps dropping to nothing?. My god before we returned we had to seriously dig deep to find streamers for the game on twitch that had more than 80 viewers.

No joke at the time of this post the entire ESO category on twitch is only 500 people and three streams have just over 100 each. Heck in Diablo 4 category has 2.2k and that's just people waiting for it's beta. Eso is less popular than watching people waiting for the Diablo 4 beta.

More people enjoying more content = more money and support for the game = win win.
Don't be elitist and just enjoy the game with what ever you so choose and the stories and friends ya make on the way.

Edit: Also before someone mentions it again that it makes end game trivial. Tri vet hard mode is still there for ya and it's very much out of our reach. Not that it matters the rewards and the achievements are tainted because buying runs is everywhere for everything end game anyway.

So it is and as it always has been about the journey and playing with friends and loved ones. Also the amazing stories in the game, like the new dungeons my god they seem amazing story wise. Can't wait for them to come to console.

[edited quote]

I can only see 3 real ways(at the moment. Granted I haven't had my coffee yet) in which this is affecting other players.

1. There are more people willing/able to do harder content and pugs are MUCH more bearable. This is a positive.

2. The "I had to sit for hours in front of a dummy and mash buttons, so should you!" Crowd. Many of the people here HAVE done that, and flat out stated they STILL 2bar with harder content. Oak builds aren't optimal for score runs and really don't do much for team players.

3. People who sell "runs" are losing profits. Just like bots, it's a touchy subject and can result in...increased.... forum activity.

Lumenn wrote: »

I can only see 3 real ways(at the moment. Granted I haven't had my coffee yet) in which this is affecting other players.

1. There are more people willing/able to do harder content and pugs are MUCH more bearable. This is a positive.

2. The "I had to sit for hours in front of a dummy and mash buttons, so should you!" Crowd. Many of the people here HAVE done that, and flat out stated they STILL 2bar with harder content. Oak builds aren't optimal for score runs and really don't do much for team players.

3. People who sell "runs" are losing profits. Just like bots, it's a touchy subject and can result in...increased.... forum activity.

I only have one small discrepancy with point 2 -- it does help your team players .... I am older, and arthritis is a thing. Because of that, I do have one build with the heavy attack and Oakensoul - and because I CAN keep up the damage, I can fill the role of DPS that I queued in for... and do the job I am supposed to be doing, without constantly needed the healer to chase me around, specifically. Trust me, I can still die, just like anyone else, but I get a bit of a cushion, that can make up for random twitches in my muscle control that has me suddenly targeting the ceiling for my ultimate, or any other attack.

On a separate note.

I went through, and did a NUMBER of different builds with 2 bar set ups, but designed so that you still only EVER used 3 buttons, as that seems to be one of the big angers..... Sorc only used 2, as the mouse is the same for light or heavy attacks, I am not counting that particular one.

What I did was use the same sets, weapons, enchants, etc.
And I used the fighter cammo skill, and the mage guild empower -- on sorc, Daedric Prey, and both pets, with lightning staff... put it on both bars... and with Sergeant's Mail and All Light Order's Wrath.... and a monster set, Kargaeda.

And I found that WITHOUT Oakensoul, I still did 88K, with an average, in combat, of 37K... pretty identical to my Oakensoul, build, since it can't get a full monster set.... and only uses 2 buttons... one every 6 seconds, and one every 10... easy to maintain --- and it hits EVERY complaint that I have seen from EVERY 2 bar player that is complaining.... all without Oakensoul.

So.... I did Templar next ... and instead of Daedric prey, I did go with some other long term passive skills... most of which had 30 second plus timers, and since I didn't have pets, or Daedric prey, I did use shards to make up the difference.... and again, 3 buttons.... identical bars, 86K / 38K (shards is actually more consistent than pets in live combat), and again, NO OAKENSOUL.....

DK, very similar numbers, as well as NB, and Warden.... I don't have a sufficient level Necro to test with, as I am not much of a Necro player.... but I really don't see an issue.

So, a NO OAKENSOUL build plays just as easy as the OAKENSOUL build with the same numbers, no real extras..... and only 3 keys... or so, each.

I am just as tanky as Oakensoul..... all you need is the Undaunted passives, with a bit of planning on Glyphs.... and with the DK, I get a Free 70% snare that does solid burn damage for 18 seconds .... who cares if they nerfed the stamina regain.... you aren't using that, anyways with a heavy attack staff.... and I never really relied much on Helping Hands, anyways.... however, the, pretty much guaranteed burn damage from DK, coupled with Occult Overload CP (even it it's new crippled state), just added a LOT to my AOE damage, easily outpacing even Daedric Prey and pets... which give you a HUGE chunk of the damage, again, without Oakensoul.....

Yes, it is easier to set up with oakensoul... marginally.
You HAVE to have High Isle
You either HAVE to be ESO+ or have bought other DLC's
You HAVE to grind your antiquities up high enough to actually use it for the leads
You HAVE to grind the leads, sort of like grinding sets in dungeons for 2 bar builds
You HAVE to hope there are enough people at a Volcanic Vent.... just to get one of those leads, and so on......

It's not a gimmee... nor is it easy, and you can get the exact same results in other paths.... I would think the issue may be more in how lightning staves work on a heavy attack, as this does work with the others, but Restoration is one target, and while the other destruction staves don't get the raw damage, they have their own bonuses.... such as ice giving you a free damage shield, and fire pretty much giving you free status effects to feed Occult Overload with.

There are issues with the staves... oakensoul just makes it easier to see them.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I can only see 3 real ways(at the moment. Granted I haven't had my coffee yet) in which this is affecting other players.

1. There are more people willing/able to do harder content and pugs are MUCH more bearable. This is a positive.

2. The "I had to sit for hours in front of a dummy and mash buttons, so should you!" Crowd. Many of the people here HAVE done that, and flat out stated they STILL 2bar with harder content. Oak builds aren't optimal for score runs and really don't do much for team players.

3. People who sell "runs" are losing profits. Just like bots, it's a touchy subject and can result in...increased.... forum activity.

I only have one small discrepancy with point 2 -- it does help your team players .... I am older, and arthritis is a thing. Because of that, I do have one build with the heavy attack and Oakensoul - and because I CAN keep up the damage, I can fill the role of DPS that I queued in for... and do the job I am supposed to be doing, without constantly needed the healer to chase me around, specifically. Trust me, I can still die, just like anyone else, but I get a bit of a cushion, that can make up for random twitches in my muscle control that has me suddenly targeting the ceiling for my ultimate, or any other attack.

I believe that #2 is more from a RL position. Your comparison works if youre part of a fixed roster or a random norm/vet. If optimization is the goal, thats one of the negatives that comes with the build. How much weight that is given is an entirely different matter.

I play with quite a few friends that use the build and overall Im glad its in the game. There's a lot good about it, some bad, but a positive addition none-the-less. Still, from the perspective of a raid lead or a group attempting to optimize its occupying a spot that isnt giving a buff that other classes could.

#3 From that list is a bit, iffy. One of the things that the mythic and build did was allow a large influx of players into veteran content. It didnt suddenly give them the ability to take on some of the hardest content in the game. Trifectas still require a measurable about of skill and practice. The people who were close and OS gave them an edge that allowed them to get it likely werent buying runs to start with.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

I could not have expressed this any better, a lot of casual players can't differentiate dummy parsing with actual content run by real people, they look at someone like cpcharles doing 130k parses and think that's the norm. If anything HA builds perform much closer to the dummy in content than what a regular build will, because simply we don't have access to the dummy buffs, I'd say most of the time for something like running dungeons it is very much flipped.

Zezin wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Mhmm and most of the time I endeavor to do exactly that.

I hear this argument passed around alot. The problem is this is an MMO and anything they add to the game, is going to impact other players as well, regardless of what you or I think about it.

I'll give you a case in point, a favorite little set of mine was Sheer Venom. For a long long time the set wasn't well known. And then came the day when all the streamers could do was talk about it. They ran out of ideas I suppose so they came for my Sheer Venom set and what do you it was nerfed along with a host of other sets that were blanket nerfed as well in one fell swoop.

And the same applies to Oak. It provides an alarming number of free buffs and makes the user notably 'strong' in interesting ways. It affects other players who in time provide ZOS with their feedback on the set as well as sometimes online vids of how others use it. Just like other strong sets did and they were all eventually nerfed in some meaningful way.

Again, I understand the want for convenience but this 'entitlement' thing with Oak has to stop. And every single person on here should know that especially in this MMO no one is entitled to anything and nothing is immune from being nerfed. Not your set or mine.

How does Oakensoul affect other players at this point? Does it overperform in PvP, as some argued about Sheer Venom? Does it cause lag in PvP, as some speculated about Sheer Venom?

@FrancisCrawford

This is an MMO, balance effects EVERYONE. Nobody plays an MMO in isolation.

I actually spent a few hours parsing with my Oakensorc last night to get a better feel for what is really going on with it. While I am not as active as I used to be, when I plan to play during a patch, I typically do a bit of research as to what the meta for DPS looks like, then I try to pick the best "bang for the buck" so to speak for my abilities and preference on playstyle. Usually, that's one of the 2-3 classes that are towards the top with perhaps a few small adjustments to make it a tad easier on the fingers. Over the last few years, I can usually find a class where I am very comfortable pulling 110-120k on the dummy. Good, but not earth shattering.

Honestly, after last night, my position has changed on this topic. I was in the camp of, meh, this is probably a tad over tuned, but I am not too worried about it.

I will say it loud for the masses. Heavy Attack oakensorc is the most over tuned PVE DPS build I have ever played by a freaking mile. And I have played darn near all of them.

While I was able to play more of a dynamic rotation sprinkling in LAs here and there and hit about 110k, hitting 100k was mind numbingingly easy. You can literally just pin down the LMB, and every 2-4 seconds press one of 5 buttons: Prey, Scamp, Hurricane, Trap (or really any skill you want), and occasionally your ultimate. No need for potions or synergies (resource management is apparently only for try hards), because your sustain is infinite. No need to swap bars. No need to time your skills because HA weaving is essentially automatic. The only real thought is that every third weave should be prey to keep a good uptime, and then maybe give a half an ounce of thought to some vague semblance of skill priority. Half of the HAs, you don't need to even weave a skill because other than curse, we are talking about 20 second skills.

Take it one step further, while I was able to push the parse with a more complicated rotation about 10% higher, why would I ever bother. You get into mixing LAs and HAs, which can cause weird animations, and often if you make any mistake, you end up doing worse than just holding down the LMB without a second thought.

Was I able to beat the Oakensorc with my standard mag sorc, yes, but not by a lot. I went from about 20 APMS, to about 130, for a fractional increase in DPS on a dummy, but in actual combat, the difference becomes smaller and in a lot of cases, upside down.

Oakensorc effects everyone because it has completely shifted what I call the pug meta. Sure there might be 3-4 raid groups out there that still roll 7 DK DPS, but they are the 0.01%. For the vast majority of the PVE population, you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to run anything else as a DPS.

They have taken perhaps the best and most advanced combat system an MMO has ever seen, and they basically turned it into an autoattack MMO, just like all the others. For a lot of us, it makes us sick to our stomachs. Its boring. Oakensorc affects everyone.

I could not have expressed this any better, a lot of casual players can't differentiate dummy parsing with actual content run by real people, they look at someone like cpcharles doing 130k parses and think that's the norm. If anything HA builds perform much closer to the dummy in content than what a regular build will, because simply we don't have access to the dummy buffs, I'd say most of the time for something like running dungeons it is very much flipped.

Agreed also. 80% of my vDungeons now when I queue have either a Fake Tank, Fake Healer or both.... Running Oakensoul Heavy Attacks roleplaying as Nikola Tesla probably yelling I'M ZAPP BRANNIGAN. No group buffs, debuffs or taunts.

It's massively affecting my experience using the system. It feels bad to queue now knowing that I am likely going to see stupid flappy wings in my face and ZAP ZAP ZAP with a fake tank running away from bosses/adds, wasting my aoes and resources and make dungeons a massively unenjoyable experience.

Same with Raids. Pugged a vSO last week and the oaken users were oblivious to first boss mechanics, getting killed the the earthquake/"popcorn" mechanic.
A Pug vRG I did this week had same issue - Oakensorcs going Brrrrrr paying no attention and killing the group at Bahsei with the curse/bomb.... even tho they have little else to pay attention to, as it's 2 skills and heavy attack.

It's becoming frustrating to play with randoms as it's just cancer at this point.