100th valid reason to NOT nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning Staff - respect player investment.

Araneae6537 · March 2023

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

@FrancisCrawford , Segt Mail already got nerfed when Oken ring came out. It was something like 3200-ish or more I think, added damage on heavy attacks. Now it only tops out at 2580 and has to ramp up from 645 to 1290 to 1935 to 2580. Which takes time.

Absolutely no bat swap cooldown! 1) I like that ESO is different than games like GW2 in having resources rather than CDs be the limiting factor. 2) Weapon swap (and just about everything else) does not go off reliably, at least not for everyone, myself included, and I don’t know where the problem lies. Adding a CD would greatly increase the frustration.

Jusey1 · March 2023

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

Honestly, I'm fine with Empowered being remove on the ring without a bar swap ability.

Elsonso · March 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

@FrancisCrawford , Segt Mail already got nerfed when Oken ring came out. It was something like 3200-ish or more I think, added damage on heavy attacks. Now it only tops out at 2580 and has to ramp up from 645 to 1290 to 1935 to 2580. Which takes time.

Absolutely no bat swap cooldown! 1) I like that ESO is different than games like GW2 in having resources rather than CDs be the limiting factor. 2) Weapon swap (and just about everything else) does not go off reliably, at least not for everyone, myself included, and I don’t know where the problem lies. Adding a CD would greatly increase the frustration.

No cooldown, and I raise you on that. I would like to add bar swap to the list of things that cannot be interrupted, if they are going to continue down the path where combat rotations include bar swaps. It is unreliable. I find myself double checking and doing two swaps because the first one didn't happen.

Yet another reason why one-bar builds are superior.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

@FrancisCrawford , Segt Mail already got nerfed when Oken ring came out. It was something like 3200-ish or more I think, added damage on heavy attacks. Now it only tops out at 2580 and has to ramp up from 645 to 1290 to 1935 to 2580. Which takes time.

Who is threatened by whom? I will tell you right now, the floor cares far more about what the ceiling can do with a lot of hard work, then then ceiling cares what the floor is doing with their finger pinned to the LMB. A 30 second bar swap cooldown would destroy combat and competitive gameplay. This what would be like setting your house on fire because you don't like the color of the paint.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

_Yulan_ wrote: »

As long Oakensoul is making more dps then players with bad rotation and as long ZoS allow dps share/show to all players... People will never stop.

Dps share is a very big problem and will allways create so much hate.
Disable only this function.... Problem 100% solved.

ZoS disable for exemple, functions for BeamMeUp addon because this was very harm to the game.
But disable DPS share.... Nah. They love blood too xD

You have to opt in to DPS share if you want to be able to see someone's specific DPS in real time. This is a very useful tool for raid leaders, and if you dont like it, dont join a competitive raid group. I can certainly see my percentage of DPS, but end of the day, that is just basic math. I know how much DPS I do, I know what the health of the enemies is, and I learned long division in like 3rd grade. Not sure they could disable that if they wanted to.

Also, nobody is running to eso logs after a random group finder and shaming people that show up as anonymous.

Agenericname · March 2023

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

@FrancisCrawford , Segt Mail already got nerfed when Oken ring came out. It was something like 3200-ish or more I think, added damage on heavy attacks. Now it only tops out at 2580 and has to ramp up from 645 to 1290 to 1935 to 2580. Which takes time.

The word for that is schadenfreude.

Sure, take some utility away from tanks and healers because the DPS/DDs cant get along.

deadjesterkingb14_ESO · March 2023

Respect Player Investment is not the issue. Removing Empower or setting back to 40% wouldn't stop people from using it, but would set the playing field. I'm just as guilty as anyone messing with the ring for fun, but in all fairness to the established difficulty of the HM should be or can be out of reach of people. Its a concept in all MMO's. If you are unable to achieve the heights without the game changing to you then you shouldn't be doing it. Removing Empower wouldn't hurt anyone's ability to use it, It wouldn't take away from "Player Investment" as they have made the leads a joke to get as well. It would give the players the ability to stay alive, play the game, do the things you want to do without trying to put yourself on a pedestal because you can hold down a button lol Otherwise I suggest they put more Stop Mechanics in to separate skill from equipment. I think that is the biggest argument from most is they put all of the effort to get things done and someone walks in with a ring they farmed to do the same thing.... What about their player investment? Either way, get rid of Empower, if it's so important one of your skills can be a Mages Guild skill you can cast every 10 seconds and you can get it back if you want to use it. Just an Opinion

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

deadjesterkingb14_ESO wrote: »

Respect Player Investment is not the issue. Removing Empower or setting back to 40% wouldn't stop people from using it, but would set the playing field. I'm just as guilty as anyone messing with the ring for fun, but in all fairness to the established difficulty of the HM should be or can be out of reach of people. Its a concept in all MMO's. If you are unable to achieve the heights without the game changing to you then you shouldn't be doing it. Removing Empower wouldn't hurt anyone's ability to use it, It wouldn't take away from "Player Investment" as they have made the leads a joke to get as well. It would give the players the ability to stay alive, play the game, do the things you want to do without trying to put yourself on a pedestal because you can hold down a button lol Otherwise I suggest they put more Stop Mechanics in to separate skill from equipment. I think that is the biggest argument from most is they put all of the effort to get things done and someone walks in with a ring they farmed to do the same thing.... What about their player investment? Either way, get rid of Empower, if it's so important one of your skills can be a Mages Guild skill you can cast every 10 seconds and you can get it back if you want to use it. Just an Opinion

Yep, Empower is fairly easy to source in multiple ways. Removing it from the ring would not destroy it in any way.

I am all for the Ring being an accessibility option to bring more content into the realm of possibility for more players. I am not okay with making Vet HMs doable for everyone with a paper weight on your LMB or a rubber band around your right trigger. Some content should be out of reach for a certain percent of the playerbase, that is why there are multiple difficulty levels.

MidniteOwl1913 · March 2023

Vulkunne wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I have no interest at all in "going further". Oakensoul enables me to deal with combat that's not intuitive, or interesting, or viable for me.

Some of us - like me - just want to have fun in this game. Without elitists attemptiing to put us down for not "going further".

Hmmm. You just wnt to have fun ok. But lemme ask you a question. If I had a ring that gave me a ton of buffs and unlocks things that are supposed to be behind other sets and I own you in combat then you would say its not fair that I have an advantage that I neither earned nor deserve.

And that's where we're coming from. Its not fair for someone to have all this power in one item and succeed in combat gameplay that as you said, to 'you' its not intuitive, or interesting or viable for you so why do it in the first place? Do you see what I'm saying. You're not happy about combat so you lean on your ring to prove a point to the rest of us who do find PvP intuitive, interesting and viable.

There is a difference. Its not just all about you and 'your fun' when it stacks the odds against other players. Moreover, just because you have Oak doesn't make up for not understanding how PvP works, esp if you hate it to begin with you're going to really hate losing to ppl who know more than you without the ring.

I'd say I don't PVP and the monsters don't get a vote... ;-)

There is no separate solution; nerf in PVP nerf in PVE.

Estin · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yep, Empower is fairly easy to source in multiple ways. Removing it from the ring would not destroy it in any way.

I am all for the Ring being an accessibility option to bring more content into the realm of possibility for more players. I am not okay with making Vet HMs doable for everyone with a paper weight on your LMB or a rubber band around your right trigger. Some content should be out of reach for a certain percent of the playerbase, that is why there are multiple difficulty levels.

This. Oakensoul should be a bridge to engaging in harder content, not an express train for completing the hardest content.

A nerf to empower to 40%, and even a complete removal of it will not destroy the playstyle. It would just put it in line to what it should be. Players who depend on Oakensoul won't necessarily like this because it means they will become weaker and won't be able to coast through the end game anymore.

If they were to go the route of removing empower, sourcing it from somewhere else can slightly increase the build variety. Templars and DKs have an easy way to source empower, while other classes can use mage's guild abilities. Necros can even become useful again with their Empowering Grasp on a tank or another one bar player to source empower to the group.

Elsonso · March 2023

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yep, Empower is fairly easy to source in multiple ways. Removing it from the ring would not destroy it in any way.

I am all for the Ring being an accessibility option to bring more content into the realm of possibility for more players. I am not okay with making Vet HMs doable for everyone with a paper weight on your LMB or a rubber band around your right trigger. Some content should be out of reach for a certain percent of the playerbase, that is why there are multiple difficulty levels.

This. Oakensoul should be a bridge to engaging in harder content, not an express train for completing the hardest content.

A nerf to empower to 40%, and even a complete removal of it will not destroy the playstyle. It would just put it in line to what it should be. Players who depend on Oakensoul won't necessarily like this because it means they will become weaker and won't be able to coast through the end game anymore.

If they were to go the route of removing empower, sourcing it from somewhere else can slightly increase the build variety. Templars and DKs have an easy way to source empower, while other classes can use mage's guild abilities. Necros can even become useful again with their Empowering Grasp on a tank or another one bar player to source empower to the group.

Actually, players who _depend_ on this will most certainly not like it. They aren't "coasting" through the game, either.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

Perfect choice of words, Elsonso.
There are people whose the possibility of participating in a lot of content entirely *depends* on Oakensoul. With it they can do more content, without it there is no way for them to take part in so many activities that right now they are discovering and enjoy so much.

It's been stated clearly - nerfing Oakensoul/Empowered/Lightning staves (whatever) further will exclude them from said content. So... Let's say it doesn't seem a nice act to those people.
One would argue that "why should they be treated differently than those who suffer from every regular patch change?!" Well... I really don't have a true defense, I'll just ask you to please imagine one of your family members struggling physically, mentally and emotionally because of some really bad thing that changed their lives forever, and on which they have zero power, in fact, they feel powerless... Would you think "let's Empower them 40% cause it's enough" or would you like to empower them until infinity and beyond?

I'm trying to make it feel less tragic than what it is, but guys... It is truly a tragic situation for some, and they (we) really NEED this.
And boy oh boy I would have kicked hard your back on CoD when I was sane and in the global top 10 leaderboard for ratio, so don't say to me it is unfair to raise people whose not capable anymore because of some random life unfairness. Be more understanding and have compassion... I know it's hard for a gamer, but try.

Chef42 · March 2023

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

TaSheen · March 2023

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

That's.... profound. Thank you.

Heromofo · March 2023

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

Honestly very well said, i don't think anyone can argue with this. Also all this [snip] about dps numbers is so silly. Oakensoul is just bringing more players into more content than ever before. That's good for the game's longevity and for the player base overall. The more you gate keep the less players will stick around and the quicker an online game dies.

More players enjoying more content means more money means more investment to keeping the game alive.

(Let's be real it's not like ESO has a massive community to pull from anymore).

[Edited for Inappropriate Language]

Estin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Perfect choice of words, Elsonso.
There are people whose the possibility of participating in a lot of content entirely *depends* on Oakensoul. With it they can do more content, without it there is no way for them to take part in so many activities that right now they are discovering and enjoy so much.

It's been stated clearly - nerfing Oakensoul/Empowered/Lightning staves (whatever) further will exclude them from said content. So... Let's say it doesn't seem a nice act to those people.
One would argue that "why should they be treated differently than those who suffer from every regular patch change?!" Well... I really don't have a true defense, I'll just ask you to please imagine one of your family members struggling physically, mentally and emotionally because of some really bad thing that changed their lives forever, and on which they have zero power, in fact, they feel powerless... Would you think "let's Empower them 40% cause it's enough" or would you like to empower them until infinity and beyond?

I'm trying to make it feel less tragic than what it is, but guys... It is truly a tragic situation for some, and they (we) really NEED this.
And boy oh boy I would have kicked hard your back on CoD when I was sane and in the global top 10 leaderboard for ratio, so don't say to me it is unfair to raise people whose not capable anymore because of some random life unfairness. Be more understanding and have compassion... I know it's hard for a gamer, but try.

I fear you're making the idea of a nerf more tragic than it needs to be.

I think we can all agree on that the balance this game has is rather out of whack with how high of a skill gap it is to actually begin experiencing end game content at just Normal difficulty. If you're not that great at the game and the group isn't good enough to blaze through the content on Normal, it can be a rather rough time in DLC content. Oakensoul HA builds is a solution for this, allowing many players to finally have a way to get into normal content, and well beyond it.

While this isn't a bad thing in of itself, my main concern with Oakensoul HA is that I feel it's far too strong for what it's supposed to do. I mention that it should be a way to bridge the gap that currently exists rather than nearly removing it altogether. That is, it would still be a viable option in Vet clears, but should hit a wall once it hits HM territory. I don't know why people want to assume that nerf means make it completely useless.

Quethrosar · March 2023

You should not need to rely on a bug in a game for dps, animation canceling. if it's not a natural movement it is a bug. Mic drop, end of conversation, fix the bug.

FrancisCrawford · March 2023

Jusey1 wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

Honestly, I'm fine with Empowered being remove on the ring without a bar swap ability.

I very, very, very emphatically am not.

Combat basically requires 3 sets of hand actions -- firing of skills, character movement, and everything else (basic attacks, blocks, bar swaps, grabbing synergies, whatever). Doing all that well with 2 hands can be ... challenging.

I play on the PC, and can make good use of a mouse with a FEW extra buttons, which I program to bar swap and so on. So I have one hand busy with skills, one with the mouse ... and that's it. Any time I have to move in combat, there's a massive loss in DPS. Except ...

... on a heavy attack sorcerer, I'm finally learning to move while shooting, perhaps better than I have in 20 years of previous MMO gaming (including ESO since open beta).

If that were taken away, I'd be sad.

Vulkunne · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Perfect choice of words, Elsonso.
There are people whose the possibility of participating in a lot of content entirely *depends* on Oakensoul. With it they can do more content, without it there is no way for them to take part in so many activities that right now they are discovering and enjoy so much.

It's been stated clearly - nerfing Oakensoul/Empowered/Lightning staves (whatever) further will exclude them from said content. So... Let's say it doesn't seem a nice act to those people.
One would argue that "why should they be treated differently than those who suffer from every regular patch change?!" Well... I really don't have a true defense, I'll just ask you to please imagine one of your family members struggling physically, mentally and emotionally because of some really bad thing that changed their lives forever, and on which they have zero power, in fact, they feel powerless... Would you think "let's Empower them 40% cause it's enough" or would you like to empower them until infinity and beyond?

I'm trying to make it feel less tragic than what it is, but guys... It is truly a tragic situation for some, and they (we) really NEED this.
And boy oh boy I would have kicked hard your back on CoD when I was sane and in the global top 10 leaderboard for ratio, so don't say to me it is unfair to raise people whose not capable anymore because of some random life unfairness. Be more understanding and have compassion... I know it's hard for a gamer, but try.

Incorrect.

The possibility of someone being able to participate in content has *never* entirely depended on one item. This is wrong. There are also other sets, other means to participate and players did so before Oak was even thought of. Its debatable whether or not you can do more content with Oak. Some things like Pale Order ring - yes. But Oak? No there are lots of vids online of activities being successfully completed without Oak.

Its stated... really. I bet. By who? Who stated this? Lots of people come on here and state their opinion but that doesn't make it true. So you're saying if they don't nerf Oak then that will prevent people from being excluded from content? What about using something else to help remove the gap left by the nerf? Again, anyone who runs Trial regularly will tell you to try and substitute something... that is not even close to meaning you're excluded for ZOS nerfing something? Do you see what I'm saying. Again, this part doesn't make sense either. I'm excluded from content because ZOS nerfed my set...

As a rule of thumb, I never talk about people's family members on here. Unfort, I have known some people with disabilities, all kinds, its sad and should never really be used as leverage. That's just my opinion. You know, I'd rather not imagine people suffering anymore than life forces them/us to suffer but that's just me.

But knowing them, I would say they would rather be whole again and able to take care of themselves without 'needing' anyone or anything. And this Oak ring you guys are so fond of I think is fine as a bridge or even maybe for sampling/testing different traits but if you're saying these disenfranchised folks by contradiction can only enjoy the game because of one item, then there's another problem altogether. ESO as like an adventure game offers many different things and if I take one of those things away, like something I enjoy even, if I take one of those things away you're saying the game is no good and not fair because of one thing missing from it.

Think about it. Yes you and others think of Oak as being a source of convenience. I get it. But the ability to get a ton of free buffs is insignificant next to the power of the force.

colossalvoids · March 2023

Quethrosar wrote: »

You should not need to rely on a bug in a game for dps, animation canceling. if it's not a natural movement it is a bug. Mic drop, end of conversation, fix the bug.

Can we please stop talking about things having no actual idea about but some wague conspiracy rumour level stuff? Thanks.

colossalvoids · March 2023

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

@sh4d0wh4z3 personally, I think a nerf would have a huge impact because my build, the one I enjoy, is NOT the one people is angry about, and it's guaranteed that a lot of people are using Oakensoul without Sgt Mail, Storm Master or whatever. Those are just a min-max combination that a bunch of experienced players have promoted to clear hard modes with more ease. But who says everyone is using that? And just for that everyone else should be nerfed - my build scratch 60K, imagine a nerf and then tell me to try to apply for a Trial run (Hence the reason I asked if anyone thinks nerfing those sets would be a better solution).

@colossalvoids the emotions were presented not as a justification if you get the message. They were supposed to help people like Wulkunne [snip] understand that f YES it's guaranteed by people who are the only ones entitled to know their f experience that they were in fact not able to clear said content before Oakensoul but with it now they are, only because of it, and if taken away/nerfed they know they will be destinated to return doing only easy overland/questing and avoiding World Bosses.

How we know? Because we DID this for years now, being excluded from said content because it wasn't for us, and not because we aren't skilled but because there wasn't any tool provided to fix our IRL impairments which have nothing to do with anyone of you or your DPS but us.
Now that a tool has been provided and it is just working we ABSOLUTELY, no f way, want it nerfed or removed to make us return at the beginning point just because people who has regularly access to all the content don't care if we can or can't participate.

I know Oakensoul is not only for impaired people, and it's good that everyone can use it, but those who couldn't care less of the struggles of us impaired should question theirselves about staff outside of this game realm, and then return to it with new eyes (I won't repeat all the good explanations/reasons that have already been mentioned before in this thread).

Edit - and I am "not presenting solutions" because my solution is to leave it as it is, as stated in the OP.

[Edited for minor baiting]

Liguar · March 2023

Now it has been "fixed" for that one trial encounter that had so many people upset, and werewolves have taken collateral damage. There were probably other ways to make one bar players deal with a mechanic that bypassed them, but this what was given. (It probably would have been a good idea to let people know prior, rather than having groups jump in and find out the hard way though.)

People tried to explain their experience and point of view in this thread, but I don't think any emotional arguments are going to sway people who just lack empathy. You either think that content should be more broadly accessible, or you do not.

colossalvoids · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@sh4d0wh4z3 personally, I think a nerf would have a huge impact because my build, the one I enjoy, is NOT the one people is angry about, and it's guaranteed that a lot of people are using Oakensoul without Sgt Mail, Storm Master or whatever. Those are just a min-max combination that a bunch of experienced players have promoted to clear hard modes with more ease. But who says everyone is using that? And just for that everyone else should be nerfed - my build scratch 60K, imagine a nerf and then tell me to try to apply for a Trial run (Hence the reason I asked if anyone thinks nerfing those sets would be a better solution).

@colossalvoids the emotions were presented not as a justification if you get the message. They were supposed to help people like Wulkunne [snip] understand that f YES it's guaranteed by people who are the only ones entitled to know their f experience that they were in fact not able to clear said content before Oakensoul but with it now they are, only because of it, and if taken away/nerfed they know they will be destinated to return doing only easy overland/questing and avoiding World Bosses.

How we know? Because we DID this for years now, being excluded from said content because it wasn't for us, and not because we aren't skilled but because there wasn't any tool provided to fix our IRL impairments which have nothing to do with anyone of you or your DPS but us.
Now that a tool has been provided and it is just working we ABSOLUTELY, no f way, want it nerfed or removed to make us return at the beginning point just because people who has regularly access to all the content don't care if we can or can't participate.

I know Oakensoul is not only for impaired people, and it's good that everyone can use it, but those who couldn't care less of the struggles of us impaired should question theirselves about staff outside of this game realm, and then return to it with new eyes (I won't repeat all the good explanations/reasons that have already been mentioned before in this thread).

Edit - and I am "not presenting solutions" because my solution is to leave it as it is, as stated in the OP.

Wasn't particularly mentioning your replies, aimed more to "strong opinions" without much of justification behind it. It's fair trying getting your point around if done in a civil manner, it's not when getting too personal against someone imo (a lot people do in such threads).

For me the issue is that we don't even particularly sure to whom this mythic is aimed for and what it power and trade off should be to judge adequately. Personally not sure it's aimed for harder content but Devs should make it crystal clear what groups it's aimed for and what use might be not intended in a sense. Guess new change kinda hints that harder group content might be for more traditional play where you're adapting to the encounter, changing your build and going out of your usual habits, as most content already require different setups for different scenarios. And still we have no clear info if that's the case, what the actual audience is and what should be the ceiling, if there should be one even.

But all that raised a lot of other questions then about balance in general, which is hot topic with zenimax obsession with it at times to unhealthy levels. If one item is going against it people are raising their brows at every single nerf, playstyle or items set made into dust throughout the years. So it's not just a matter of part of community and Devs to just look away from it, there should be either crystal clear communication or their perception of balance should be questioned entirely.

Personally I'm fine with it as is. But at the same time I can't honestly say it's balanced in any possible way and that's fine with me. Personally yet again I want zenimax to be a bit consistent and if balance isn't what they're trying to strike let's maybe not be nerfing every single playstyle/identity to the dust when it emerges.

[Edited for quote]

SkaiFaith · March 2023

@colossalvoids thank you for clarifying

I have nothing to say against your opinion. You've just made an excellent point.
My only hope is, since in U37 Oakensoul hasn't been touched, that the Devs have wisely decided to leave it as it is (I was afraid that with the incoming "Necrom year" they would have nerfed it to the ground as done in the past with other items). If they'll leave it like this, even if maybe it isn't perfectly balanced in every aspect for everyone, they have my gratitude. And I talk as someone who will not get trifectas for sure anyway, like probably the majority of Oakensoul users. I (we?) Don't want to rob anyone of their well earned and deserved achievements... Just enjoy the game the most

FrancisCrawford · March 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I have a proposed solution: People should mind their own busness and stop complaining about other people having fun in ways that doesn't interfere with the complainers' own game experiences.

End of problem.

Red_chimera_oni · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

"... I (we?) Don't want to rob anyone of their well earned and deserved achievements... Just enjoy the game the most

You can't rob others well earned achiev even if you(we) try.
This can only happen, if they are selling runs and you will not buy it cuz you(we) can make it.

colossalvoids · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@colossalvoids thank you for clarifying I have nothing to say against your opinion. You've just made an excellent point.
My only hope is, since in U37 Oakensoul hasn't been touched, that the Devs have wisely decided to leave it as it is (I was afraid that with the incoming "Necrom year" they would have nerfed it to the ground as done in the past with other items). If they'll leave it like this, even if maybe it isn't perfectly balanced in every aspect for everyone, they have my gratitude. And I talk as someone who will not get trifectas for sure anyway, like probably the majority of Oakensoul users. I (we?) Don't want to rob anyone of their well earned and deserved achievements... Just enjoy the game the most

Yeah I agree about the point that if they didn't touched the mythic it's probably staying as is. At least while they're figuring out the final purpose of it or how they should proceed with other things balance wise after it's instalment. But it seems that ignoring it's "high end" use was the road to go, as more people doing content now is valuable enough to tackle with it again loosing potential numbers and causing new dissatisfaction of playerbase so soon after their grand u35... Issue.

Not sure people actually feel robbed of some achievements, I don't personally as I remember the patch it was in and game was just different.

But in a sense I can get some of that also if I was still in a progression position nowadays trying to ditch my sorrowful 40k on Olms while trying to make use of flanking (cause set) every time possible whilst dealing with 250+ spiking ping and 10-15fps having 15k health and praying for Iceheart when screen freezes while other player could ha their way to consistently splash the arena for 70k+ being so tanky. Also Master Architect duty to the list lol. It's all personal stuff for people so everyone sees it differently but honestly I treasure those memories enough to not care how it's done nowadays and pretty sure many others also do.

Edit: at least one thing should absolutely remain no matter what. It's dominance and power for overland and solo content, preferably still being the bridge from normal to veteran mode to be crossed without that big jump in difficulty. Can't say anything about "high end" as have no idea if that's was intended or not, literally no opinion because of that.

Browiseth · March 2023

@Liguar oakensoul is NOT an accessibility option

imagine if you had to pay extra in order to see subtitles in this game

that would be horrible and unethical, wouldn't it?

i wonder if oakensoul is locked behind multiple dlcs hmmmm

with that in mind, its actually pretty cringe that you reference the jimquisition, since i know steph would probably really dislike oakensoul's implementation if we are to assume it is an accessibility option

Yazrz · March 2023

Browiseth wrote: »

@Liguar oakensoul is NOT an accessibility option

imagine if you had to pay extra in order to see subtitles in this game

that would be horrible and unethical, wouldn't it?

i wonder if oakensoul is locked behind multiple dlcs hmmmm

with that in mind, its actually pretty cringe that you reference the jimquisition, since i know steph would probably really dislike oakensoul's implementation if we are to assume it is an accessibility option

As currently implemented, it is an accessibility option. The fact that is unethical to hide it behind additional cost does not change that fact!