100th valid reason to NOT nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning Staff - respect player investment.

Liguar · March 2023

Browiseth wrote: »

@Liguar oakensoul is NOT an accessibility option

imagine if you had to pay extra in order to see subtitles in this game

that would be horrible and unethical, wouldn't it?

i wonder if oakensoul is locked behind multiple dlcs hmmmm

with that in mind, its actually pretty cringe that you reference the jimquisition, since i know steph would probably really dislike oakensoul's implementation if we are to assume it is an accessibility option

The fact that I referenced the ring mechanic from final fantasy described in said video should have been an indication that I am aware Steph would have things to say about the way oakensoul is implemented. It's still a very good and relevant video and worth referencing here. Sorry that you find that cringe.

I don't think accessibility items should be locked behind DLC either. But compared to the rings in the video, which i believe take away from player power by replacing stronger items, oakensoul seems to annoy people for being a bit too good?

Do I think it is the perfect example of accessibility? No, and I never claimed it to be. I call it an accessibility option because ZoS has called it one (linked elsewhere in this gigantic thread). I could also say that calling it an accessibility option and then preventing it's use in a specific trial is a bit off.

Agenericname · March 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

Not sure it's the exact post where I said that Oaken is fine and a nice accessibility option for players to bridge the gap between content but people going into their ultimate defence mode making me seriously question if it's actually that good for the health of the game. When arguments are going from denying objective reality of it being overloaded or to some vague ideas of what's is accessibility you can already guess there are emotions speaking, not logic. It's not about HA builds, not about one bar ones, it's about a one piece item set.
You can't balance the game around emotions and feelings, those aren't helping your cause nor they could make people change their minds when they're using logic and going from zos understanding of balance actually knowing what makes an item overloaded, how it affects progression and getting achievements etc.

Present data, solutions, but not emotionally overloaded nothing to the table expecting devs to look another direction again when they got a look at you for a reason.

I dont think that they (the devs) care about our "solutions." Thats fly-over territory for sure. The solutions presented here, in the forums, are at best for us, not them. In which case @FrancisCrawford probably had the best one.

@Chef42
"It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way."

At a certain level, it hasnt been that way in a long time. Class buffs matter and always have. Thats why people get so upset about nerfs.

As far back as I have been running trials, Morrowind, some builds/classes have been prefered, others have been excluded. In Sumerset it was Nightblades. They were the class everyone wanted. Nobody wanted mag Wardens in their groups.

"Cant you bring a magdk instead?" Is pretty common at the moment.

What's happening now is there is a whole new demographic of people entering the fray. I dont think its a bad thing, but, ZOS' nerf/buff cycle is lot more real for some now.

Vrienda · March 2023

Oakensoul has made the gameplay in ESO fun for me at endgame for probably the first time. Weapon swapping always felt clunky and unintuitive, as did buff management. I'll never unequip that ring and I hope it doesn't get nerfed.

axi · March 2023

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

It really wasn't like that. Since the game started rotations based on fully charged heavy attacks were considered slow and boring by large part of the community interrested in doing toughest content. "Fast paced combat" is a term You will hear very often from players invested in the end game when You Ask them what they like the most about ESO. In 2017 where sorcs with rotation based on fully charged heavy attacks became a meta partially due to sustain nerfs there was a backlash from end game community and many people stopped playing because of that so no it never was just about doing X DPS. It could look like that for a while because two bar rotations dominated PvE scene for many years so when people were talking about DPS everyone had two bar setups in mind by default.

Oakensoul just brings old displeasment towards heavy attacks rotations to the daylight because with that item rotations based fully on heavy attacks became close to regular two bar rotations and in many cases started beating them. Argument about 20-30k difference on a dumny is really irrelevant because in real content very often defense, support and sustain that one bar heavy attacks rotations provide starts to shorten the distance to two bar rotations. Occasionally one bar heavy attacks are capable to even beat two bar rotations. Good players with two bar rotations start to sometimes struggle to beat heavy attacks oakensoul users which creates displeasment because since they wants to perform the best as they can it forces them to run on a setup they don't like if they want to be as best asset for the team as they can. There are also trials like vAS HM where one bar heavy attacks setups currently perform as good or even better than two bar setups DPS wise and beat them in terms of defense to the point they can ignore some of the mechanics. That creates situation where getting some of the top HM and trifecta achievents is becoming easier with one bar oakensoul setups than with a regular two bar setups which causes a displeasment for many players who for many reasons preffer two bar rotations.

Yazrz · March 2023

axi wrote: »

Occasionally one bar heavy attacks are capable to even beat two bar rotations. Good players with two bar rotations start to sometimes struggle to beat heavy attacks oakensoul users which creates displeasment because since they wants to perform the best as they can it forces them to run on a setup they don't like if they want to be as best asset for the team as they can. There are also trials like vAS HM where one bar heavy attacks setups currently perform as good or even better than two bar setups DPS wise and beat them in terms of defense to the point they can ignore some of the mechanics. That creates situation where getting some of the top HM and trifecta achievents is becoming easier with one bar oakensoul setups than with a regular two bar setups which causes a displeasment for many players who for many reasons preffer two bar rotations.

While well worded, that argument does not make any sense. You are saying players should not be forced to play a way they do not like, which I fully agree with.

But then why should this argument only go one way? For all players who prefer one bar, the opposite is true for a majority of trials / achievements, is it not?

axi · March 2023

Quethrosar wrote: »

You should not need to rely on a bug in a game for dps, animation canceling. if it's not a natural movement it is a bug. Mic drop, end of conversation, fix the bug.

Animation cancelling was many times confirmed by developers as intended feature they want players to use. You do realise every timer You dodge after doing something You are effectively animation cancelling? Pick up the mic please.

axi · March 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Occasionally one bar heavy attacks are capable to even beat two bar rotations. Good players with two bar rotations start to sometimes struggle to beat heavy attacks oakensoul users which creates displeasment because since they wants to perform the best as they can it forces them to run on a setup they don't like if they want to be as best asset for the team as they can. There are also trials like vAS HM where one bar heavy attacks setups currently perform as good or even better than two bar setups DPS wise and beat them in terms of defense to the point they can ignore some of the mechanics. That creates situation where getting some of the top HM and trifecta achievents is becoming easier with one bar oakensoul setups than with a regular two bar setups which causes a displeasment for many players who for many reasons preffer two bar rotations.

While well worded, that argument does not make any sense. You are saying players should not be forced to play a way they do not like, which I fully agree with.

But then why should this argument only go one way? For all players who prefer one bar, the opposite is true for a majority of trials / achievements, is it not?

I am not making any statement about what should or should not happen. I am saying that some players are displeased with the fact they are reaching similar DPS by working harder to stay alive and manage their sustain.

Opposite wasn't a truth for a long time for one bar heavy attacks players. DPS of that setups was high enough to participate in almost everything even before oakensoul arrival. They were not forced to play with two bar dynamic rotations it was either their choice or lack of knowledge that there is another way.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Yazrz · March 2023

axi wrote: »

I am not making any statement about what should or should not happen. I am saying that some players are displeased with the fact they are reaching similar DPS by working harder to stay alive and manage their sustain.

Opposite wasn't a truth for a long time for one bar heavy attacks players. DPS of that setups was high enough to participate in almost everything even before oakensoul arrival. They were not forced to play with two bar dynamic rotations it was either their choice or lack of knowledge that there is another way.

Agreed to the first part.

In the second paragraph you lose me compared to what you stated in your earlier post.

A player that wants to play to the best of their capability does not mean that they prefer a two bar build. In the current meta, players need to use two bars in a majority of fights to maximize their performance. So saying that two bar players may feel that they are forced to change to a one bar build, could be done for a player that prefers a one bar build. They are forced to use the two bar build even if they do not like it.

Yazrz · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I dont think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a HA build should top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above the ceiling.

To me this is a clear indication that the issue is that the skill scaling is not properly implemented. (Without having actual data on the matter) I have no issue with increased skill leading to higher DPS, but the difference between high end to the top players need to be marginal.
And maybe more importantly, having different types of builds enabling different types of skill would be beneficial for the community. Not everyone likes high APM rotations, not everyone likes the LA weaving etc. HA Oaken is a way around that, but maybe there should be some more skill scaling implemented for those builds?

Personally I also question if pulling DPS should be where the skill is in encounters. But that is of course a highly individual preference.

Liguar · March 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

In the current meta, players need to use two bars in a majority of fights to maximize their performance.

I think that too many people feel like they need to use 2 bars to be "good", but if they can't get the advertised results for the extreme end (like the numbers that Oreyn_Bearclaw posted) then there is a frustration that HA builds are doing good enough without struggling, and that it isn't fair.

So again, some of the anger seems to be people gatekeeping themselves into playing a build they struggle with (enjoying said struggle or not) and maybe feeling like the alternative is giving up. Especially if, as Bearclaw says, this will prevent them from progressing into more demanding content.

Seems like it is a mindset issue though, as there are also lots of people have said they feel HA builds have been a stepping stone to getting confidence to try new content and learn mechanics, and then feel incentivized to work on more complicated builds.

Araneae6537 · March 2023

I don’t see any reason to want Oakensoul nerfed. I don’t think it’s BiS in either PVP or PVE. Players who run 2 bar builds and LA weave face no pressure to switch. It’s an option and I think it’s great that it enables people to participate in content that they otherwise wouldn’t.

It does not hurt anyone. And isn’t one of the frequent complaints here about DDs in PUG groups not doing enough damage in vet and DLC dungeons? Now if players have more options to do good DPS, doesn’t that help everyone?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

You should not need to rely on a bug in a game for dps, animation canceling. if it's not a natural movement it is a bug. Mic drop, end of conversation, fix the bug.

Animation cancelling was many times confirmed by developers as intended feature they want players to use. You do realise every timer You dodge after doing something You are effectively animation cancelling? Pick up the mic please.

@axi

I have to tell myself to not engage with people that still refer to AC or weaving as a bug that the devs are incapable of fixing. It's complete nonsense.

This game is setup with action cooldowns and priorities. Skills and other actions such as block, dodge, bar swap, light attack, heavy attack are treated separately. While they did not intend for weaving or even necessarily things like block/dodge/swap cancelling, it was discovered VERY early in this game. People were weaving in Beta.

If they wanted, they could eliminate weaving in a minute. If they put LA/HA on the same cooldown as skills, you would no longer be able to weave. It would take a some interns about 10 seconds of coding to do that. Acting like that is beyond the capability of the devs is again, complete nonsense.

Instead, they went the other direction. They build sets around weaving, they built skills around weaving, they adjusted animations of skills and light attacks to make it look more fluid. They have doubled down on weaving time and time again. Just stop with the "it's a bug they cant fix" nonsense.

In terms of block, skill, barswap canceling, well they realized very quickly that this is necessary for reactive combat. I have often suggested that they should just disable this for a week so everyone realizes just how necessary it is. If you couldn't do this, you would not be able to respond defensively to a change in your situation, nor would you be able to perform a fluid rotation on multiple bars. Removing this would do nothing but kill a lot of pugs and cause a lot of rage. Its absolutely necessary for the game as it is currently built.

Araneae6537 · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Isn’t 100k DPS like the absolute maximum you can currently get with Oakensoul? I doubt most players using it are pulling that high DPS any more than 2 bar players. On a magsorc with lightning staff in Sergeant’s Mail, Storm Master and Oakensoul, proper traits and CP, I still only hit around 70k DPS on a trial dummy. I’m sure there’s something I can improve, but my point is that it still takes work to get optimal DPS with Oakensoul, even with what I think should be the easiest HA build with two pets.

Agenericname · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

You should not need to rely on a bug in a game for dps, animation canceling. if it's not a natural movement it is a bug. Mic drop, end of conversation, fix the bug.

Animation cancelling was many times confirmed by developers as intended feature they want players to use. You do realise every timer You dodge after doing something You are effectively animation cancelling? Pick up the mic please.

@axi

I have to tell myself to not engage with people that still refer to AC or weaving as a bug that the devs are incapable of fixing. It's complete nonsense.

This game is setup with action cooldowns and priorities. Skills and other actions such as block, dodge, bar swap, light attack, heavy attack are treated separately. While they did not intend for weaving or even necessarily things like block/dodge/swap cancelling, it was discovered VERY early in this game. People were weaving in Beta.

If they wanted, they could eliminate weaving in a minute. If they put LA/HA on the same cooldown as skills, you would no longer be able to weave. It would take a some interns about 10 seconds of coding to do that. Acting like that is beyond the capability of the devs is again, complete nonsense.

Instead, they went the other direction. They build sets around weaving, they built skills around weaving, they adjusted animations of skills and light attacks to make it look more fluid. They have doubled down on weaving time and time again. Just stop with the "it's a bug they cant fix" nonsense.

In terms of block, skill, barswap canceling, well they realized very quickly that this is necessary for reactive combat. I have often suggested that they should just disable this for a week so everyone realizes just how necessary it is. If you couldn't do this, you would not be able to respond defensively to a change in your situation, nor would you be able to perform a fluid rotation on multiple bars. Removing this would do nothing but kill a lot of pugs and cause a lot of rage. Its absolutely necessary for the game as it is currently built.

As long as they post that they're doing it, preferably in advance, so I can reschedule runs and play a different game that week, sure.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

Yazrz wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I dont think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a HA build should top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above the ceiling.

To me this is a clear indication that the issue is that the skill scaling is not properly implemented. (Without having actual data on the matter) I have no issue with increased skill leading to higher DPS, but the difference between high end to the top players need to be marginal.
And maybe more importantly, having different types of builds enabling different types of skill would be beneficial for the community. Not everyone likes high APM rotations, not everyone likes the LA weaving etc. HA Oaken is a way around that, but maybe there should be some more skill scaling implemented for those builds?

Personally I also question if pulling DPS should be where the skill is in encounters. But that is of course a highly individual preference.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Skill should be rewarded for DPS, and there have absolutely been times in the game where the gap between the ceiling and the floor was way to big. Certainly, not everyone is going to agree on how big that gap should be. My personal opinion is that its a little small at the moment.

One issue is that its relatively easy to define the ceiling. The floor is harder to peg. Is the floor someone that just does whatever they want in mix matched gear and spams LAs from the corner, or is the floor someone that is putting some reasonable effort into end game, but they just don't have the skill/APMs to really be competitive with the ceiling. To me, I think its the later we need to focus on. And don't get me wrong, the ring and HA builds have helped elevate that floor, which on its face is a good thing. I just think we have to ask if we have perhaps gone a bit too far the other way. Again, I think we have but not by a huge margin.

As someone who has run with some of the better raid groups in this game at one time, I will say, the real skill is not doing raw DPS, the skill is pulling high DPS WHILE respecting mechanics. Simply following mechanics while doing no damage is relatively easy (heck its why trifecta runs can be sold to pugs). Simply parsing on a dummy and pulling high damage is harder, but its something most people can perfect and learn with some work. It's putting them together that is where the difficulty lies. The problem with HA builds in their current state is that we have really trivialized that combination. How much much skill should be required to pull high DPS while doing content is again debatable, but I think one of the things that really separates ESO from other MMOs is the dynamic nature of damage rotations and combat in general.

There just isnt a lot of room between HA builds and Auto-attack MMOs, and I have zero interest in ESO turning into the later.

JJMaxx1980 · March 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Isn’t 100k DPS like the absolute maximum you can currently get with Oakensoul? I doubt most players using it are pulling that high DPS any more than 2 bar players. On a magsorc with lightning staff in Sergeant’s Mail, Storm Master and Oakensoul, proper traits and CP, I still only hit around 70k DPS on a trial dummy. I’m sure there’s something I can improve, but my point is that it still takes work to get optimal DPS with Oakensoul, even with what I think should be the easiest HA build with two pets.

If you’re only hitting 70k DPS you’re not set up correctly or you’re sleeping. The build will do more than that with a brick on the left mouse button. As someone who has hit 104k with my OakenSorc and 103k with my OakenDen I can say that just like the 2 bar builds, it took me a long time learning the build and the rotation to reach those numbers consistently. My guild master hit 107k on the Sorc, but that with god-like crit fishing.

Most people using the build will fall around 85k-90k, depending on skill and practice level. Only the top percent of players will come anywhere near the cap.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

Honestly, I'm fine with Empowered being remove on the ring without a bar swap ability.

I very, very, very emphatically am not.

Combat basically requires 3 sets of hand actions -- firing of skills, character movement, and everything else (basic attacks, blocks, bar swaps, grabbing synergies, whatever). Doing all that well with 2 hands can be ... challenging.

I play on the PC, and can make good use of a mouse with a FEW extra buttons, which I program to bar swap and so on. So I have one hand busy with skills, one with the mouse ... and that's it. Any time I have to move in combat, there's a massive loss in DPS. Except ...

... on a heavy attack sorcerer, I'm finally learning to move while shooting, perhaps better than I have in 20 years of previous MMO gaming (including ESO since open beta).

If that were taken away, I'd be sad.

@FrancisCrawford

For what it is worth, an MMO mouse would solve your problem. You arent the first person to say, I can parse, and I can move, but I can't parse and move. Its less of an issue on a controller because you can have your Left Thumb on a movement stick and your right thumb can be pressing skills (and occasionally making camera movements with the right stick), but on a traditional mouse keyboard, your left index, middle, and ring finger should not be trying to pull double duty between movement and skills if you want to pull elite damage in difficult content. Whether its right or wrong, it's reality.

axi · March 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Isn’t 100k DPS like the absolute maximum you can currently get with Oakensoul? I doubt most players using it are pulling that high DPS any more than 2 bar players. On a magsorc with lightning staff in Sergeant’s Mail, Storm Master and Oakensoul, proper traits and CP, I still only hit around 70k DPS on a trial dummy. I’m sure there’s something I can improve, but my point is that it still takes work to get optimal DPS with Oakensoul, even with what I think should be the easiest HA build with two pets.

Around 105k is a maximum You can get on a dummy with oakensoul as heavy attack setup. With dynamic rotation and light attack weaving You can get around 115k.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

axi wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Chef42 wrote: »

It used to be that you had to do X dps. Thats all that matters, X dps.

Then came Oakensoul. Now its you have to do X dps, but you can only do it my way.

You can't keep moving the goalposts. But I think the big thing here is this. If your doing 120k dps (random number) using a 2 bar build and LA weaving, and I am doing 100k dps using a HA Oaken build, how exactly does it make your game worse? I think the thing that isn't being talked about is that people are basing their worth in a game based on how many people are below them in whatever metric they choose. As opposed to, you know, enjoying the game. All I care about is if I enjoy my time in the game. A HA Oaken build lets me do that. If your enjoying the game less because your not outpacing people at the rate you used to, thats a personal problem, and not one where things need to be rebalanced.

I will take a shot at this one. The percent of players pulling 120k+ DPS was VERY VERY small. These are the folks pushing content on the extreme end of things. 100k DPS is a completely different animal. These were people that had put work into their build and rotation, a lot of them may be newer to endgame, but they werent cutting edge by any means. For some, this might take most everything they had and its their effective ceiling. Others, this was a stepping stone to join the elite. I worry that if the stepping stone disappears, so does the pool of players pushing content. If they disappear, the entire game gets reduced in difficulty from the top down.

Now, you can pull 100k DPS with a tiny fraction of the APMs. Dont get me wrong, I am all for accessibility, but if I can do the same thing with 30% of the effort, who is going to push themselves. It has a negative effect on end game progression and trivializes end game content and some of the harder achievements.

Again, I don't think it needs a massive nerf, but personally, I feel like a one bar HA build should probably top out in the 85-90k range based on current DPS thresholds. That gives a nice entry point with plenty of accessibility and plenty of DPS for the vast majority of vet content. But it also still encourages people to take off the training wheels to get and actually get better to push into the low 100s, and the top is still right where they are.

I think we are dangerously close to a situation where the floor is effectively above or at least on par with the ceiling.

Isn’t 100k DPS like the absolute maximum you can currently get with Oakensoul? I doubt most players using it are pulling that high DPS any more than 2 bar players. On a magsorc with lightning staff in Sergeant’s Mail, Storm Master and Oakensoul, proper traits and CP, I still only hit around 70k DPS on a trial dummy. I’m sure there’s something I can improve, but my point is that it still takes work to get optimal DPS with Oakensoul, even with what I think should be the easiest HA build with two pets.

Around 105k is a maximum You can get on a dummy with oakensoul as heavy attack setup. With dynamic rotation and light attack weaving You can get around 115k.

Yeah I got to about 110k on my second or third try on my sorc. I do weave all skills when I am not mashing the LMB, and its like 3 skills, so of course I am doing it dynamically.

Meanwhile, I am sweating bullets on my double staff mageblade to break 100k. That is the source of my personal frustration. I can still out parse my HA build on a Dynamic 2bar Sorc or DK with DW/2H, but I admittedly ask myself, why bother. Hence the frustration. Probably need to go farm some Runecarver, lol.

FrancisCrawford · March 2023

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Starbridge84 wrote: »

In all honesty, it's clear that 2bar players feel threatened by the ring.

Not that ZOS would say/do it, but if we lost Empowered on the ring, I think bar swap should get a 30 sec cooldown. I would be totally fine with that.

Honestly, I'm fine with Empowered being remove on the ring without a bar swap ability.

I very, very, very emphatically am not.

Combat basically requires 3 sets of hand actions -- firing of skills, character movement, and everything else (basic attacks, blocks, bar swaps, grabbing synergies, whatever). Doing all that well with 2 hands can be ... challenging.

I play on the PC, and can make good use of a mouse with a FEW extra buttons, which I program to bar swap and so on. So I have one hand busy with skills, one with the mouse ... and that's it. Any time I have to move in combat, there's a massive loss in DPS. Except ...

... on a heavy attack sorcerer, I'm finally learning to move while shooting, perhaps better than I have in 20 years of previous MMO gaming (including ESO since open beta).

If that were taken away, I'd be sad.

@FrancisCrawford

For what it is worth, an MMO mouse would solve your problem. You arent the first person to say, I can parse, and I can move, but I can't parse and move. Its less of an issue on a controller because you can have your Left Thumb on a movement stick and your right thumb can be pressing skills (and occasionally making camera movements with the right stick), but on a traditional mouse keyboard, your left index, middle, and ring finger should not be trying to pull double duty between movement and skills if you want to pull elite damage in difficult content. Whether its right or wrong, it's reality.

I already addressed that in the post you quoted.

I do well with the four large and widely separated extra buttons on a Logitech 300 series mouse. That gets me bar swap, synergies, dodge backwards, and crouch.

(I actually seem to be more fluent with bar swap than many players otherwise much better than I am. For me this discussion is much more about heavy attack builds than 1-bar Oakensoul itself.)

But I don't do well with the tiny side keypads I've tried using to select among 6 active skills. (Nor are the central buttons on a G300 helpful in combat.)

SkaiFaith · March 2023

...I really don't want to make myself a clown but with all this talking about LA weaving I have to ask...

What do you think is the percentage of high end players parsing perfectly compared to the percentage of players who don't even have the most remotely clue of what Weaving means?

I know weaving has always meant to exist in this game, but I've learned about its existence only years after starting and just because of some YouTube guide. And even after that I have ignored it since on console it's even harder, and because "it feels" like a bug, even though it isn't.
How many players are Solos whom would have no idea of what you are talking about?

Seriously, I'm not clowning, I just think that these data is in the hands of Zos and not ours.

I'm not saying I disrespect your veteran opinion! It's valid. I just think Zos has to consider a wider range of people and not only the top 1%, because we've seen with U35 the outrage caused by trying to balance things based on the top 1%. No one wants that, really.

Estin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

@sh4d0wh4z3 personally, I think a nerf would have a huge impact because my build, the one I enjoy, is NOT the one people is angry about, and it's guaranteed that a lot of people are using Oakensoul without Sgt Mail, Storm Master or whatever. Those are just a min-max combination that a bunch of experienced players have promoted to clear hard modes with more ease. But who says everyone is using that? And just for that everyone else should be nerfed - my build scratch 60K, imagine a nerf and then tell me to try to apply for a Trial run (Hence the reason I asked if anyone thinks nerfing those sets would be a better solution).
]

What build are you running if it's not Sgt Mail and Storm Master? That is the core of HA gear setup along with Oakensoul. Not using them implies you're not using a HA build, or you're just using HAs with other sets that give no benefit to a HA build. If it's the former, then why are you or anybody not taking advantage of the build concerned about a nerf to Oakensoul's empower? I'm certain the people using Oakensoul without the optimized gear setup aren't using it solely for empower. Not when empower is already easy enough to obtain. They would be using it for the Major and Minor buffs to boost their attacks in overland and normal content. If it's the latter, then should people shift their focus to nerfing Sgt Mail and Storm Master instead so the builds are more in line with what it should be?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

...I really don't want to make myself a clown but with all this talking about LA weaving I have to ask...

What do you think is the percentage of high end players parsing perfectly compared to the percentage of players who don't even have the most remotely clue of what Weaving means?

I know weaving has always meant to exist in this game, but I've learned about its existence only years after starting and just because of some YouTube guide. And even after that I have ignored it since on console it's even harder, and because "it feels" like a bug, even though it isn't.
How many players are Solos whom would have no idea of what you are talking about?

Seriously, I'm not clowning, I just think that these data is in the hands of Zos and not ours.

I'm not saying I disrespect your veteran opinion! It's valid. I just think Zos has to consider a wider range of people and not only the top 1%, because we've seen with U35 the outrage caused by trying to balance things based on the top 1%. No one wants that, really.

LA weaving is literally in one of the loading screen tooltips these days. Dont get me wrong, ZOS certainly could wildly upgrade their tutorials in game, but the do tell you about weaving.

Weaving certainly matters to DPS, but it is not nearly as much as most people think. I think even ZOS overstated it's impact when they nerfed LAs. Not surprising as subtlety is not ZOS's strong suit.

The biggest things that separate the elite DPS from the perhaps slightly above average joe are their ability to dynamically cast skills with near perfect timing and priority. Timing means both on the 1.0 second global cooldown and as close to the expiration of the skill as possible, and priority means that when you have decisions to make (maybe 2 skills timers have run at the same time), you make the correct cast. Weaving certainly makes that a little more challenging, but when it comes to pulling 120k+ DPS, weaving is the easy part. Weaving, even before the light attack nerfs was maybe 15% DPS, now its less.

As to you other post about gear sets, well its oakensoul that allows for the easy peasy 100k+ damage. Storm master and Sergeants are the best to pair with it and neither are hard to come by, but there are other options that just arent that far behind. Balancing the game around unoptimized gear leads to things being wildly OP.

Estin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

...I really don't want to make myself a clown but with all this talking about LA weaving I have to ask...

What do you think is the percentage of high end players parsing perfectly compared to the percentage of players who don't even have the most remotely clue of what Weaving means?

I know weaving has always meant to exist in this game, but I've learned about its existence only years after starting and just because of some YouTube guide. And even after that I have ignored it since on console it's even harder, and because "it feels" like a bug, even though it isn't.
How many players are Solos whom would have no idea of what you are talking about?

Seriously, I'm not clowning, I just think that these data is in the hands of Zos and not ours.

I'm not saying I disrespect your veteran opinion! It's valid. I just think Zos has to consider a wider range of people and not only the top 1%, because we've seen with U35 the outrage caused by trying to balance things based on the top 1%. No one wants that, really.

ZoS only has 1 loading screen tip that explains weaving and that's it I believe. I don't think the new, or any, tutorials had a section that explained weaving.

I would say that the majority of the game's players don't even know what weaving is, and for the minority who do, I would say the majority who do know about weaving have many misconceptions about it and dropped it immediately.

The act of weaving is simply just using a LA between a skill. It doesn't even need to be as fast as you hear it needs to go. Any attack between a skill will be helpful. It's necessary for ult generation, and for a class like NB where it has many skills that take advantage of LAs (Grim Focus, Incap Strike, Siphoning Strike). For other classes, it's not as important.

I feel many people believe the act of weaving makes a huge difference when it comes to DPS numbers, but you can still hit pretty good numbers without LAs on a class that's not LA depended. There's also a lot of good proc sets out there that don't need you to constantly LA. I also feel that many people who attempted weaving couldn't get it down perfectly within 3 tries while also trying to do block cancels to cancel skill animations, so they dropped it. Weaving speed comes with practice and can done through a chill method like overland questing. Animation cancels like a block cancel aren't needed. It won't increase damage and is completely unnecessary, yet people still think you need to do it when first starting out with weaving. The only major animation cancel that needs to be done is a bar swap, and even then, it doesn't speed anything up. You still have to wait until you can attack again after doing so. And, as long as you're not somebody who's constantly swapping bars to do something like reapply blast bones immediately after it expires, you only need to do it twice per rotation.

SkaiFaith · March 2023

Firstly - I don't do Trials and tend to avoid Vet difficulty (because tedious). But I like to clear DLC WBs, DLC World Events and Normal Dungeons completely alone.

With that said, here's my "non-optimized but enjoyable to me" build, simple and easy...

Imperial Warden with Bear + Bastian
Lover Mundus
Oakensoul Ring
1 piece Slimecrow
5 pieces Necropotence (Divines with Lightning staff Sharpened)
5 pieces Plague Doctor (4 body pieces Reinforced)
Glyphs are a mix of max Health max Magicka and Spell Damage.
Don't remember specifically but around 40 points Health and 20 Magicka
Skills: Inner beast to taunt and keep Bastian alive; the Swarm morph that does AoE; Deep Fissure; Unstable wall of Elements; Polar wind to help Bastian in emergencies

I'll leave out CPs, it takes too long, but I have weapon expert and the one buffing damage against off balance enemies.

With this, for the content I do, I'm pretty much unkillable. Not died once. Around 60K DPS and having fun.

It's not META, I just did it myself based on what I needed for my play style, and it works nicely. I don't see why this should be nerfed since it doesn't hurt anyone. And I'm sure other Oakensoul users are not equipping the optimized sets just because they have more fun with something else - that's what I meant referring to different percentage of players and play styles.
If 1% break Oakensoul why nerf it for the other 99% whose not breaking anything?

Edited to add details.

I would also add that what I do is keeping Dots up and spamming Heavy Attacks to use Empower

TaSheen · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

It's not META, I just did it myself based on what I needed for my play style, and it works nicely. I don't see why this should be nerfed since it doesn't hurt anyone. And I'm sure other Oakensoul users are not equipping the optimized sets just because they have more fun with something else - that's what I meant referring to different percentage of players and play styles.
If 1% break Oakensoul why nerf it for the other 99% whose not breaking anything?

Yeah, I'm not using those "meta" sets either. I don't do group content or pvp, and I don't like heavy attacks; I use Oakensoul on my Stamdens wearing 5 Hexos' Ward and 5 Hundings plus Sellistrix shoulder, with a mix of my normal spells and Steel Tornado on those who dual wield. On those who use 2 hand swords, I run a couple of normal spells and Executioner, Carve, and Rally.

This works very well for me for overland, questing, and delves, which is really all the combat I care to mess with.

JJMaxx1980 · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

If 1% break Oakensoul why nerf it for the other 99% who’s not breaking anything?

Except no one broke it. A few high-level players beat half-decade old content with Oakensoul. Content they could have done with Rubedite gear.

Players have beat Veteran Maelstrom Arena with one button without Oakensoul. Five players recently beat vRG, a trial meant for 12 players. You can’t nerf skill. Oakensoul helps casual players do mediocre damage to do mid-level endgame content. The top 1% using Oakensoul means absolutely nothing.

Estin · March 2023

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Firstly - I don't do Trials and tend to avoid Vet difficulty. But I like to clear DLC WBs and Normal Dungeons completely alone.

With that said, here's my "non-optimized but enjoyable to me" build, simple and easy...

Imperial Warden with Bear + Bastian
Lover Mundus
Oakensoul Ring
1 piece Slimecrow
5 pieces Necropotence (Divines with Lightning staff Sharpened)
5 pieces Plague Doctor (4 body pieces Reinforced)
Glyphs are a mix of max Health max Magicka and Spell Damage.
Don't remember specifically but around 40 points Health and 20 Magicka
Skills: Inner beast to taunt and keep Bastian alive; the Swarm morph that does AoE; Deep Fissure; Unstable wall of Elements; Polar wind

I'll leave out CPs, it takes too long, but I have weapon expert and the one buffing damage against off balance enemies.

With this, for the content I do, I'm pretty much unkillable. Not died once. Around 60K DPS and having fun.

It's not META, I just did it myself based on what I needed for my play style, and it works nicely. I don't see why this should be nerfed since it doesn't hurt anyone. And I'm sure other Oakensoul users are not equipping the optimized sets just because they have more fun with something else - that's what I meant referring to different percentage of players and play styles.
If 1% break Oakensoul why nerf it for the other 99% whose not breaking anything?

Edited to add details.

From the looks of things, it sounds like you're benefiting more from the Major and Minor buffs that oakensoul provides rather than the empower buff which is the issue oakensoul has. Even if oakensoul lost empower, I don't believe a build like yours would even lose much DPS, and if it did, you can always slot 4 piece necropotence and 5 piece sergeants mail with 2 red CP (Boundless Vitality and Hero's Vigor) to nearly make up for all damage and health loss from the removal of empower and equipment change which leads to the question, what are you even concerned about then?

SkaiFaith · March 2023

@sh4d0wh4z3
1) I'm not only concerned about myself in particular but broadly
2) the title says "don't nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning staff" because I've seen people asking to nerf all of this which overall would indeed hit my build.
3) since my main source of damage is Heavy Attacking - it's really all I do - I don't understand how you see losing empower wouldn't affect me.
4) Sure I could change my build (to replace Empower), everyone, everywhere at any point in time could, but why should I if right now it is not hurting anyone, may I ask? Is there something damaging to anyone in my build? - I'm on the defensive only because you are asking specifically about me, not "because of my feelings".

Btw, the numbers are there only to keep thoughts ordered, I'm not "angry" XD

EDIT to be clear, people talked about taking Empower to 40% and halving Trifocus. How would this not impact me? Trifocus is extremely helpful to solo players.