Why Snake in the Stars needs a further adjustment after 8.3.3 before hitting the live server

React · February 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

React wrote: »

I have been thinking about this and... I know what am I going to do.

Warning ! Tactic Rant ! Incoming !

I am just gonna... right click... save as... then... file... print... Ok, now I am gonna grab scissorsand cut it... Ok now I am gonna put it... right there in the frame and put it here.

Ok, now I have this screen shot in a frame next to my monitor. And every time I am gonna encounter a Ball Group I am gonna look at this screen shot - just to remind myself what kind of Monster is running there in circles.

They have 12 Vigors. I and other 30 players around me don't. So... what should I do next ? A quick evaluation of chances I have:
Obviously, I am not an NPC or someone new to PvP. I am not gonna charge at them, "Leroy Jenkins" style. There are better ways to do something pointless. I see some players trying to hit them with sieges. They somehow are able to coordinate and hit the Ball Group with 10 balistas at once. Impressive for random / solo players. But... It did nothing. Oh, we also have a "Ball Group" on our side... they fight each other but... both of them "12 Vigors". No one is able to stop them. Nothing is. After a while even Ball Group are ignoring each other.

^ After seeing this type of things happening countless times I know what is the best thing players can do. I am just gonna fix a random wall & hide to maybe get deff tick. If not, then I am gonna wait for someone to take the keep so I can get some AP.

I will be honest. Sometimes I just go back to my Allaiance Base instead and quit. Because there is no fun left in this game. Game should be fun for all players. But when the "fun" is one-sided, then I get the feeling that someone else is having tons of fun at the expense of others.
I consider myself an experienced player. And I realised one thing. The more knowledge I have the more I think that against a ball group (even if I have like 30 - 40 decent players on my side) best thing we can do is to either wait till "Ball Group" gets bored or quit the game & play something different.

Now, going back to this screen shot. I mean... lets just say that... "that is a lot of healing" stacked. 10 - 12 Echoing Vigor is like what 20K - 30K healing per second. Almost as if you had like 40K health recovery.

It is an MMO, I get it, but... just look at it ! Don't you think that maybe, somehow, in some way... this screen shot feels kinda um... wrong ?

Just think of what a player new to ESO or player who plays other PvP games would say if you would show them this screen shot.

"Nice cheat code" or "It is probably some bug exploit in which you multiple the effects" would most certainly be the answers.

But... it is not a cheat or an exploit. It is an actual gameplay.
Game allows to stack things indefinitely. No limit. You have no player collision hit box, you can stack 100 players in one 1x1 square meter and if they all cast AOE healing - they will all be all healed 100x times.

Again, I know it is an MMO, but I also know that Devs behind this game are kinda experienced. Making MMO rpg is their job. They are professionals. And yet... how they did allowed something like this to happen ? Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. Even I know that.

Ok, let's simplify it a bit and pretend that we are not balancing a complicated video game, but rather an audio file. The wave & the volume needs to be optimized for every device, so it would not blow everyone's ears out. Quite simple, right ? But then comes the time in which the audio file is being played by a "Ball group" device which automatically boost the wave & it's volume by 1200%... You can not balance stuff if you have this much disparity between "lows" & "highs". The only way would be to make the sound file to reach tones that human ears cannot even hear.

Or, maybe just try different approach and maybe, just maybe add a "cap" to maximum volume setting ? So instead of being boosted by 1200% it would like only 300%.

How that translate to ESO ?

TLDR:
Well, maybe having a cap on how many same effects stacked could be a good idea ? Instead of having no cap at all, imagine if it would be 3 or something. If 7 people are for example healing you with Echoing Vigor, you would only be healed by 3. Every other cast will be ignored or if someone casted it split second after it would just refresh / replace the existing one.

Part of what you wrote here really is the most important part of this issue.

Ball groups can't kill other ball groups most of the time, and next patch their damage is being drastically reduced through the harmony nerf.

This problem is only going to get worse now, as they truly will not have the damage to touch eachother.

They should be limiting the amount of specific HOTS that can be on you at once, to 2. That is the widely requested change that would immediately solve the problem. It is what the majority of people in favor of nerfing heal stacking suggest.

But that is clearly not what zenimax is going to do. The introduction of this set
and the justification around it is proof that going forward, they're going to be attempting to balance PVP via set additions. They already kind of have been trying, albeit poorly, through sets like plague, convergence, rush, etc.

Since we are undoubtedly going to have SITS forced into the game, they need to remove the cooldown so that it is impactful against the most problematic groups. If they do not remove the cooldown, the set is simply going to be another failed attempt at solving a balance issue, which ends up impacting everyone except the people it was intended to impact.

i11ionward · February 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

React wrote: »

I have been thinking about this and... I know what am I going to do.

Warning ! Tactic Rant ! Incoming !

I am just gonna... right click... save as... then... file... print... Ok, now I am gonna grab scissorsand cut it... Ok now I am gonna put it... right there in the frame and put it here.

Ok, now I have this screen shot in a frame next to my monitor. And every time I am gonna encounter a Ball Group I am gonna look at this screen shot - just to remind myself what kind of Monster is running there in circles.

They have 12 Vigors. I and other 30 players around me don't. So... what should I do next ? A quick evaluation of chances I have:
Obviously, I am not an NPC or someone new to PvP. I am not gonna charge at them, "Leroy Jenkins" style. There are better ways to do something pointless. I see some players trying to hit them with sieges. They somehow are able to coordinate and hit the Ball Group with 10 balistas at once. Impressive for random / solo players. But... It did nothing. Oh, we also have a "Ball Group" on our side... they fight each other but... both of them "12 Vigors". No one is able to stop them. Nothing is. After a while even Ball Group are ignoring each other.

^ After seeing this type of things happening countless times I know what is the best thing players can do. I am just gonna fix a random wall & hide to maybe get deff tick. If not, then I am gonna wait for someone to take the keep so I can get some AP.

I will be honest. Sometimes I just go back to my Allaiance Base instead and quit. Because there is no fun left in this game. Game should be fun for all players. But when the "fun" is one-sided, then I get the feeling that someone else is having tons of fun at the expense of others.
I consider myself an experienced player. And I realised one thing. The more knowledge I have the more I think that against a ball group (even if I have like 30 - 40 decent players on my side) best thing we can do is to either wait till "Ball Group" gets bored or quit the game & play something different.

Now, going back to this screen shot. I mean... lets just say that... "that is a lot of healing" stacked. 10 - 12 Echoing Vigor is like what 20K - 30K healing per second. Almost as if you had like 40K health recovery.

It is an MMO, I get it, but... just look at it ! Don't you think that maybe, somehow, in some way... this screen shot feels kinda um... wrong ?

Just think of what a player new to ESO or player who plays other PvP games would say if you would show them this screen shot.

"Nice cheat code" or "It is probably some bug exploit in which you multiple the effects" would most certainly be the answers.

But... it is not a cheat or an exploit. It is an actual gameplay.
Game allows to stack things indefinitely. No limit. You have no player collision hit box, you can stack 100 players in one 1x1 square meter and if they all cast AOE healing - they will all be all healed 100x times.

Again, I know it is an MMO, but I also know that Devs behind this game are kinda experienced. Making MMO rpg is their job. They are professionals. And yet... how they did allowed something like this to happen ? Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. Even I know that.

Ok, let's simplify it a bit and pretend that we are not balancing a complicated video game, but rather an audio file. The wave & the volume needs to be optimized for every device, so it would not blow everyone's ears out. Quite simple, right ? But then comes the time in which the audio file is being played by a "Ball group" device which automatically boost the wave & it's volume by 1200%... You can not balance stuff if you have this much disparity between "lows" & "highs". The only way would be to make the sound file to reach tones that human ears cannot even hear.

Or, maybe just try different approach and maybe, just maybe add a "cap" to maximum volume setting ? So instead of being boosted by 1200% it would like only 300%.

How that translate to ESO ?

TLDR:
Well, maybe having a cap on how many same effects stacked could be a good idea ? Instead of having no cap at all, imagine if it would be 3 or something. If 7 people are for example healing you with Echoing Vigor, you would only be healed by 3. Every other cast will be ignored or if someone casted it split second after it would just refresh / replace the existing one.

I completely agree, vigor is totally broken.
ZOS, i have a question, why don't major and minor buffs stack, but do HoTs stack?

Krone23 · February 2023

Idk how it is on NA but on EU with the ball Group iam running in we can easy wipe most other balls in a GvG and from Zerg its even easier.
And again idk how often i already said it. When you guys consider your self as experienced players do some quick thinking and you will pretty fast find a way to kill every Ball out of the Zerg with 3-4 Players.

Food for tought if a Ball has high Healing over time (20k hps from vigor for example) You would need 20k dps to outnumber that healing pretty impossible i would say. So what type of Damage outside Damage over time we have in this game ? Starts with "B" has "urs" in the middle and a 't" at the end.

TechMaybeHic · February 2023

i11ionward wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

React wrote: »

I have been thinking about this and... I know what am I going to do.

Warning ! Tactic Rant ! Incoming !

I am just gonna... right click... save as... then... file... print... Ok, now I am gonna grab scissorsand cut it... Ok now I am gonna put it... right there in the frame and put it here.

Ok, now I have this screen shot in a frame next to my monitor. And every time I am gonna encounter a Ball Group I am gonna look at this screen shot - just to remind myself what kind of Monster is running there in circles.

They have 12 Vigors. I and other 30 players around me don't. So... what should I do next ? A quick evaluation of chances I have:
Obviously, I am not an NPC or someone new to PvP. I am not gonna charge at them, "Leroy Jenkins" style. There are better ways to do something pointless. I see some players trying to hit them with sieges. They somehow are able to coordinate and hit the Ball Group with 10 balistas at once. Impressive for random / solo players. But... It did nothing. Oh, we also have a "Ball Group" on our side... they fight each other but... both of them "12 Vigors". No one is able to stop them. Nothing is. After a while even Ball Group are ignoring each other.

^ After seeing this type of things happening countless times I know what is the best thing players can do. I am just gonna fix a random wall & hide to maybe get deff tick. If not, then I am gonna wait for someone to take the keep so I can get some AP.

I will be honest. Sometimes I just go back to my Allaiance Base instead and quit. Because there is no fun left in this game. Game should be fun for all players. But when the "fun" is one-sided, then I get the feeling that someone else is having tons of fun at the expense of others.
I consider myself an experienced player. And I realised one thing. The more knowledge I have the more I think that against a ball group (even if I have like 30 - 40 decent players on my side) best thing we can do is to either wait till "Ball Group" gets bored or quit the game & play something different.

Now, going back to this screen shot. I mean... lets just say that... "that is a lot of healing" stacked. 10 - 12 Echoing Vigor is like what 20K - 30K healing per second. Almost as if you had like 40K health recovery.

It is an MMO, I get it, but... just look at it ! Don't you think that maybe, somehow, in some way... this screen shot feels kinda um... wrong ?

Just think of what a player new to ESO or player who plays other PvP games would say if you would show them this screen shot.

"Nice cheat code" or "It is probably some bug exploit in which you multiple the effects" would most certainly be the answers.

But... it is not a cheat or an exploit. It is an actual gameplay.
Game allows to stack things indefinitely. No limit. You have no player collision hit box, you can stack 100 players in one 1x1 square meter and if they all cast AOE healing - they will all be all healed 100x times.

Again, I know it is an MMO, but I also know that Devs behind this game are kinda experienced. Making MMO rpg is their job. They are professionals. And yet... how they did allowed something like this to happen ? Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. Even I know that.

Ok, let's simplify it a bit and pretend that we are not balancing a complicated video game, but rather an audio file. The wave & the volume needs to be optimized for every device, so it would not blow everyone's ears out. Quite simple, right ? But then comes the time in which the audio file is being played by a "Ball group" device which automatically boost the wave & it's volume by 1200%... You can not balance stuff if you have this much disparity between "lows" & "highs". The only way would be to make the sound file to reach tones that human ears cannot even hear.

Or, maybe just try different approach and maybe, just maybe add a "cap" to maximum volume setting ? So instead of being boosted by 1200% it would like only 300%.

How that translate to ESO ?

TLDR:
Well, maybe having a cap on how many same effects stacked could be a good idea ? Instead of having no cap at all, imagine if it would be 3 or something. If 7 people are for example healing you with Echoing Vigor, you would only be healed by 3. Every other cast will be ignored or if someone casted it split second after it would just refresh / replace the existing one.

I completely agree, vigor is totally broken.
ZOS, i have a question, why don't major and minor buffs stack, but do HoTs stack?

The answer to that is usually that DOTs can stack so why shouldn't HOTs. Which is what I'd like a HOT purge. Not to mention, DOTs are mostly mitigated to some so need some sort of penetration and not just max power, yet the HOTs tick generally for more

Howda · February 2023

Krone23 wrote: »

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

Doesn't make any sense. Soccer analogy is also not enough.if you are 12 pll training we 50 chasing with 5 goalkeepers at least we should have a chance.

Ofc coordinated groups deserved the power they get but not for the price and the amount of power they wield atm.

A singe person rarely kills a ball group, they might kill few randoms stacked but not a ball.

The set should not offer the solution nor they will be able to kill a ball group But Healing needs adjustment. That is the real deal. Healing cannot have unlimited stacks. 2 stacks per named skill or make Healing a few named buffs. That is the real update.

Howda · February 2023

Krone23 wrote: »

Idk how it is on NA but on EU with the ball Group iam running in we can easy wipe most other balls in a GvG and from Zerg its even easier.
And again idk how often i already said it. When you guys consider your self as experienced players do some quick thinking and you will pretty fast find a way to kill every Ball out of the Zerg with 3-4 Players.

Food for tought if a Ball has high Healing over time (20k hps from vigor for example) You would need 20k dps to outnumber that healing pretty impossible i would say. So what type of Damage outside Damage over time we have in this game ? Starts with "B" has "urs" in the middle and a 't" at the end.

The server is not even registering the attacks because Nova's constant healing spams.

Burst dmg will never outheal 60k hps you run like we are in pve. Breakfree doesn't work once you drop a CC and we just wait for the animations to be played out.

That is why the set is not even enough and healing stacks should be limited in order to discourage such gamestyles that are hurting the game.

I am sure coordinated Groups will find their place and again will lead the charts in pvp. Just it should not be on the patience and dissatisfaction to unplayable experience for regular zerg/solo players.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2023

Krone23 wrote: »

Starts with "B" has "urs" in the middle and a 't" at the end.

Burst damage does not work against ball groups. Not in a way that it works against other targets. Every Burst damage combo takes time. Even the basic ones are 2 or 3 skills being casted. So, by the time you land a second attack (or even if you have a delayed burst) - your target is already back to full health.
^ Also, It is important to notice that a lot of attacks against a ball groups very often are not even being registered by the server due to incredible LAG those groups are causing.

In order for the "burst" to work against a heal-spamming Ball Group, the combo would have to consist of just one, but insanely powerful attack, so it would register and the player would not have a chance to heal back to full again in a split second. It would have to be all done in one hit (one skill or ult, in a single attack).

How much HP an average player in a Ball Group has ? Something around 40K. So, you would need to deal more than 40K damage with a single skill or ult. As far as I am aware, this is impossible, even if you min-max. You would need to have like 40K damage tooltip on a single skill / ult (damage taken is reduced by half) with maximum penetration and you would need to critically hit.

bachpain · February 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

React wrote: »

I have been thinking about this and... I know what am I going to do.

Warning ! Tactical Rant ! Incoming !

I am just gonna... right click... save as... then... file... print... Ok, now I am gonna grab scissorsand cut it... Ok now I am gonna put it... right there in the frame and put it here.

Ok, now I have this screen shot in a frame next to my monitor. And every time I am gonna encounter a Ball Group I am gonna look at this screen shot - just to remind myself what kind of Monster is running there in circles.

They have 12 Vigors. I and other 30 players around me don't. So... what should I do next ? A quick evaluation of chances I have:
Obviously, I am not an NPC or someone new to PvP. I am not gonna charge at them, "Leroy Jenkins" style. There are better ways to do something pointless. I see some players trying to hit them with sieges. They somehow are able to coordinate and hit the Ball Group with 10 balistas at once. Impressive for random / solo players. But... It did nothing. Oh, we also have a "Ball Group" on our side... they fight each other but... both of them "12 Vigors". No one is able to stop them. Nothing is. After a while even Ball Group are ignoring each other.

^ After seeing this type of things happening countless times I know what is the best thing players can do. I am just gonna fix a random wall & hide to maybe get deff tick. If not, then I am gonna wait for someone to take the keep so I can get some AP.

I will be honest. Sometimes I just go back to my Allaiance Base instead and quit. Because there is no fun left in this game. Game should be fun for all players. But when the "fun" is one-sided, then I get the feeling that someone else is having tons of fun at the expense of others.
I consider myself an experienced player. And I realised one thing. The more knowledge I have the more I think that against a ball group (even if I have like 30 - 40 decent players on my side) best thing we can do is to either wait till "Ball Group" gets bored or quit the game & play something different.

Now, going back to this screen shot. I mean... lets just say that... "that is a lot of healing" stacked. 10 - 12 Echoing Vigor is like what 20K - 30K healing per second. Almost as if you had like 40K health recovery.

It is an MMO, I get it, but... just look at it ! Don't you think that maybe, somehow, in some way... this screen shot feels kinda um... wrong ?

Just think of what a player new to ESO or player who plays other PvP games would say if you would show them this screen shot.

"Nice cheat code" or "It is probably some bug exploit in which you multiple the effects" would most certainly be the answers.

But... it is not a cheat or an exploit. It is an actual gameplay.
Game allows to stack things indefinitely. No limit. You have no player collision hit box, you can stack 100 players in one 1x1 square meter and if they all cast AOE healing - they will all be all healed 100x times.

Again, I know it is an MMO, but I also know that Devs behind this game are kinda experienced. Making MMO rpg is their job. They are professionals. And yet... how they did allowed something like this to happen ? Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. Even I know that.

Ok, let's simplify it a bit and pretend that we are not balancing a complicated video game, but rather an audio file. The wave & the volume needs to be optimized for every device, so it would not blow everyone's ears out. Quite simple, right ? But then comes the time in which the audio file is being played by a "Ball group" device which automatically boost the wave & it's volume by 1200%... You can not balance stuff if you have this much disparity between "lows" & "highs". The only way would be to make the sound file to reach tones that human ears cannot even hear.

Or, maybe just try different approach and maybe, just maybe add a "cap" to maximum volume setting ? So instead of being boosted by 1200% it would like only 300%.

How that translate to ESO ?

TLDR:
Well, maybe having a cap on how many same effects stacked could be a good idea ? Instead of having no cap at all, imagine if it would be 3 or something. If 7 people are for example healing you with Echoing Vigor, you would only be healed by 3. Every other cast will be ignored or if someone casted it split second after it would just refresh / replace the existing one.

THIS is my exact thought on ball groups. They are RUINING PVP. 12 sets of heals, 12 sets of AOE damage ults. Snow treaders all around with sets and synergies all working together. It is just a moving mass of death for anyone not in the ball or on its team. It just isn't good for the game at all. The whole idea of this kind of thing happening just destroys the experience for everyone except those in the ball giggling as they melt the poor solos and zerglings that get too close. One of my guilds is trying to make a ball group, I want no part of it. I am fine with grouping and playing but ball groups are a different animal that is game breaking on many levels.

Krone23 · February 2023

First of all its even laggy when the ball Groups are not around the Problem are the Server and they are currently getting fixed. (Just look at NA they have no lag and way more Ball Groups then EU).
Second you are able to kill Ball Groups with Burst just get 3 good NB Bombers and a Temp with Nova in the Back and Boom easy kill. Or 3 Wardens with Subs and DB time you stuff together and get the Ball Group in a moment where they have a lot of pressure on them and easy kill.
However i have to agree with you that currently that is often not rly possible cause of the general lag the Server have in the Primetime. But that will be fixed in like 1 1/2 Months or something like this. Then get 3 Friends put some thinking in your setup and multiple tries and you will see that it is possible to wipe a ball Group when you get them in the right moment.
And if you think Ball Groups are ruining the game for you then i have to say Cyro is rly rly big, so if you dont want to fight a Ball you have so many other opportunitys to get a fight where there is no Ball Group. And if you say now mimimi they take the Scrolls then i have to say sorry if we take the Scrolls back that got taken in the middle of the Night by PvEDooring from one Faction. Ruins the Game way more than Ball Groups tbh

TechMaybeHic · February 2023

Krone23 wrote: »

First of all its even laggy when the ball Groups are not around the Problem are the Server and they are currently getting fixed. (Just look at NA they have no lag and way more Ball Groups then EU).
Second you are able to kill Ball Groups with Burst just get 3 good NB Bombers and a Temp with Nova in the Back and Boom easy kill. Or 3 Wardens with Subs and DB time you stuff together and get the Ball Group in a moment where they have a lot of pressure on them and easy kill.
However i have to agree with you that currently that is often not rly possible cause of the general lag the Server have in the Primetime. But that will be fixed in like 1 1/2 Months or something like this. Then get 3 Friends put some thinking in your setup and multiple tries and you will see that it is possible to wipe a ball Group when you get them in the right moment.
And if you think Ball Groups are ruining the game for you then i have to say Cyro is rly rly big, so if you dont want to fight a Ball you have so many other opportunitys to get a fight where there is no Ball Group. And if you say now mimimi they take the Scrolls then i have to say sorry if we take the Scrolls back that got taken in the middle of the Night by PvEDooring from one Faction. Ruins the Game way more than Ball Groups tbh

LoL

NotTaylorSwift · February 2023

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

What an absurd idea. It’s literally a group based game. Cyrodiil is LARGE SCALE pvp first and foremost. You CHOOSE not to take advantage of the benefits of grouping. The benefits are there for EVERYONE. You shoot yourself in the foot, no one else… it’s not even just grouping. It’s coordinated gameplay which will always come out on top no matter what. Again… this is available for everyone to take advantage of. Discord is free. Teamspeak is free. If you don’t want to use them, it’s your fault. You can’t punish everyone else for YOUR choices.

I guess it depends on points of view. I mean, no one complains about solo players or zergs. It is always "Ball Groups".

People literally do complain about solo players wth. Every day in zone chat there are countless comments of "trolls at x farm". "trolls running around rock at x keep". If you're a good solo pvper in this game you're apparently a 'troll'.

People also complain about zergs :S smallscale/solo players getting steamrolled by a 50 man hivemind rolling from keep to keep around the emp circle.

Like... people complain about EVERY playstyle...

This point is moot.

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

Just disable cross healing

Being in a group is already a good enough advantage

Sergykid · February 2023

any combat metrics images? with damage taken from this set and damage dealt with it. Or it's all just "ifs" everywhere.

remember to include context and full image

TechMaybeHic · March 2023

Does this sets damage scale? Started thinking about it and others like knight slayer says a max of 8 k, or sloads has a max as well.

Dr_Con · March 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Just disable cross healing

Being in a group is already a good enough advantage

This individual took cross healing, the ball groups probably want to disable crosshealing more than anyone so pugs don't take their heals.