Balance

seventyfive · February 2023

To me, it's an upside to have the greatest mobility in the game (updated mist is not even close in terms of mobility, actually try it out on the pts), range built into the class kit (often completely overlooked), best shield stacking capabilities and decent burst.

I meet all kinds of sorcerers when playing the game. Some do not utilize their class strengths and perform poorly. Others are masters of mobility and range, and perform amazingly.

My advice to some forum users is to pick a reasonable standpoint. Claiming that any class in this game is completely eclipsed by any other class is borderline comedy, no matter which class you include in such a statement.

Perhaps some players started leveling their sorcerers right after the initial hybridization and miss playing their class in that slightly overtuned state. That's okay.

I'm just here to bring some balance to the discussion itself. I imagine it's unfortunately (and perhaps unintentionally) quite easy to form echo chambers that appear to represent the entire population with a dozen people commenting in the same threads and reacting to eachothers comments.

I imagine the reality of sorcerer is that it's slightly more difficult to play to perfection in pvp/bg environments, than the average among classes. Same goes for NB.

If you do not highly value mobility and range, and if you want the class you pick to have the lowest skill ceiling, I genuinely think you should pick another class.
Some people do want precisely those things and are doing very well in the game.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Preach! Time after time I’m reading complaint forums about class imbalance, and always in an effort to raise up whoever is talking’s class over their competition.

Seriously, just read any of these Sorc or Templar threads, some of the suggestions are just outrageous, imagine Sorcerer had the heal over time capability of other classes without making any set or weapon sacrifices? Remember the unkillable Templar and Dragonknight damage dealer meta we just partially walked out of? Dragonknight still hasn’t been addressed, but Templar sure has.

I fail to see how being forced to wear a damage set to provide damage is a problem, or a healing set to provide healing would be likewise, when it’s the only area of a particular class that’s failing.

Every class should have one “need” area, damage happens to be Templar and Necromancer, while healing happens to be Sorcerer’s.

I’m of the opinion that Templar, Necromancer, and Sorcerer are in a great spot, it’s the other three classes that need to be looked at. Their need areas are being completely ignored at the moment.

mmtaniac · February 2023

What is balance? This game not have one. right now in game i only see DK's but templars are G'arbagge. Templar class skills are ignored and not completed , before jabs nerfs this wasn't problem because jabs carried us but right now class have big design flaws in everything starting from passives ending on ultimates. 75% of templar class need reworks. Because right now It's just not work. I can point problems but i do that already many times. Tempalr mains know our problems. Whole class is just mess.

Caribou77 · February 2023

Ah.

Billium813 · February 2023

It'd be nice if ZOS elaborated on what each classes strengths and weaknesses are. I think most players think that all classes need to be strong at all things. I commonly see players complain that some classes lack sources of Brutality/Sorcery, or no gap closers, or no group buffs. I imagine ZOS has a checklist to make sure each class has a specific identity.

For instance, it has been established that DK is supposed to struggle with sustain. And apparently Templar is supposed to struggle with single target damage (jk... kinda).

Stx · February 2023

[Snip]

[Snip] The number of DKs and NBs in cyrodiil are massive compared to the other classes. The stats were linked in another thread. Because those classes are far better than the others except warden, but warden always has a lower player count for some reason, I guess because not everyone has it unlocked still.

What is balance? Balance is each class having strengths and weaknesses. This can be offensive capability, defensive capability, mobility, utility, and sustain.

Right now the classes are extremely imbalanced. So no, I don’t think everyone making threads about the state of Sorc, Templars, or necros are just wrong.

Also, calling sorcerer a high skill class in this game is just silly to me. Combat and skill usage in this game is so simplistic, no class is hard to learn. Skill in this game is mostly about positioning, blocking/dodging, weaving abilities, having a good build, a good internet / machine, and hoping the servers work.

[Edited for bait]

Stx · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

It'd be nice if ZOS elaborated on what each classes strengths and weaknesses are. I think most players think that all classes need to be strong at all things. I commonly see players complain that some classes lack sources of Brutality/Sorcery, or no gap closers, or no group buffs. I imagine ZOS has a checklist to make sure each class has a specific identity.

For instance, it has been established that DK is supposed to struggle with sustain. And apparently Templar is supposed to struggle with single target damage (jk... kinda).

I wish they would. Because some classes currently have zero weakness (DK), some have very few weaknesses (NB AoE damage), and some have literally one good ability keeping the entire class afloat (Templar).

I’m not even joking, DKs can make ranged builds that are just as good as a Sorc. Isn’t ranger supposed to be a DK weakness?

Urzigurumash · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I fail to see how being forced to wear a damage set to provide damage is a problem, or a healing set to provide healing would be likewise, when it’s the only area of a particular class that’s failing.

Every class should have one “need” area, damage happens to be Templar and Necromancer, while healing happens to be Sorcerer’s.

I’m of the opinion that Templar, Necromancer, and Sorcerer are in a great spot, it’s the other three classes that need to be looked at. Their need areas are being completely ignored at the moment.

This is an excellent point and I tend to agree. Why bring the top 3 down rather than the bottom 3 up? Because specific weaknesses encourage build diversity between classes.

Look at any of the popular "S Tier Stam but Flame DK" builds. Does it really matter which 5 pieces they're using? No and they tend to use the most stat dense sets of the patch, rather than characteristic DK sets as in the past - with the exception of Bloodspawn. Of course people think other classes lack this or that when they throw on these most stat dense sets.

And yes, absolutely, to all Necro Templar and Sorc mains - are you sure you want your class to be an easy mode noob class? Templar mains surely have a fresh memory of what this was like, console DK mains experience this now for the first time really.

Billium813 · February 2023

Stx wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

It'd be nice if ZOS elaborated on what each classes strengths and weaknesses are. I think most players think that all classes need to be strong at all things. I commonly see players complain that some classes lack sources of Brutality/Sorcery, or no gap closers, or no group buffs. I imagine ZOS has a checklist to make sure each class has a specific identity.

For instance, it has been established that DK is supposed to struggle with sustain. And apparently Templar is supposed to struggle with single target damage (jk... kinda).

I wish they would. Because some classes currently have zero weakness (DK), some have very few weaknesses (NB AoE damage), and some have literally one good ability keeping the entire class afloat (Templar).

I’m not even joking, DKs can make ranged builds that are just as good as a Sorc. Isn’t ranger supposed to be a DK weakness?

I personally like the premise that each class has specific weaknesses. I think that's good for class identity and players don't respect that enough; it seems like players want their Necro to be able to do anything their Sorc can do with all the same access to buffs and debuffs and skills and everything. ZOS is adamant that each class can Tank, DPS, and Heal, but they don't really talk much about the built in weaknesses each class is DESIGNED to have.

I think the issue is that no 2 weaknesses are created equal, just like no 2 strengths are. Take DK for instance, let's say (just for the sake of argument) that DK's weaknesses are: sustain, heals, and range. DK is supposed to be more tanky, with access to armor, has good CC and high single target, melee range damage.

NOTE: I'm only looking at solo play for this, because group play throws the whole comparison out of whack as other classes can start covering for class identity weaknesses (like Templars providing DK with sustain).

So, how does DKs weaknesses play out? IMO, 2 of those weaknesses can be overcome quite easily through gameplay. Sustain and range can both be covered by bursting damage, positioning with cover, and good resource management (iow. no button mashing). This makes the skill of DK all the more important to cover the inadequacies. For heals, well Vigor is just soo strong that it mostly does it all; also Mara's Balm set. Everyone runs it, even Templars whose class identity should be all about heals! It seems fairly easy to cover the weakness, leaving only strengths!

Not only that, but the weakness of sustain and healing are most likely seen as a detriment to the game. What I mean is, the game WANTS players to heal and cast abilities. Its seen as a problem if players can't heal enough or run out of resources. If players cant cast spells or cant heal enough, they aren't having fun. This entire thought means design is incentivized to naturally cover for a class that has a weakness in sustain or healing.

IMO, I think this is kinda where we start to see Templars issues. Templars strengths seem like they are supposed to be: heals, sustain, AOE damage. Except, there is a problem with having these as strengths. The game already naturally wants every class to have good sustain and heals as I just explained. And AOE Damage is often seen as too strong, so it keeps getting pulled back. Often, I find that as Templar, I am very good with sustain and don't die much, but I hit far less than others.

Stx · February 2023

I also think strengths and weaknesses are good for class identity; as well as not all classes having easy access to all buffs. What is the point of armor sets that add major buffs or world skill lines that add major buffs, or potion effects that add major buffs? If every class has every major buff then these things all become useless.