Removal of Trifecta Achievements

Amottica · February 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Where's the option for none of these?

Trifectas are the only challenging part of ESO. They require practice and teamwork, often taking several months to complete. If they were removed, made easier, or allowed some deaths, then they would be completed within a week of new content being released. For trials especially this would leave top groups with nothing to work toward the remaining 51 weeks of the year.

I agree with fixing the game. We had a DSR last weekend where 10/12 players disconnected at the same time, then had a login queue to get back in.

I'd also support adding additional achievements for things like personal trifecta, or non-HM no death speed run. Maybe throw in some unique cosmetics and titles for these as well. Stepping stones of victory along the way are a good thing, removing the reward for perfection is not.

I agree. I agree with each point. Though I would note that rewards for any lesser achievement group such as a non-HM no-death speed run should be decidedly less than the reward for a trifecta as part of an HM.

And to the poll specifically, it seems the idea is just to make a challenge easier based on the permitted responses. It makes the results relatively meaningless since it is decidedly biased.

Four_Fingers · February 2023

Leave it as is, this is a group achievement in a group activity.

Inaya1 · February 2023

Where is the option "Upgrade trifecta's rewards?" Or "leave as is?". I find this poll disgusting.

If you can't do that, then you just don't fully understand the mechanics of the game. I've done a lot of trifecta and have had no trouble with them. All you need to do is open your eyes, read the guide and discuss with the group what to do. Now there are a lot of people who make them and who are interested in it.

If this achievments and rewards is removed, then my entire experience since beta will be over. I will leave the game once and for all as it will no longer make sense as an MMO.

If you want to play skyrim, please, no one forbids you to buy it and install 999 mods with thomas the train and godmod difficulty. Don't spoil the gameplay for others.

peacenote · February 2023

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

BoraxFlux · February 2023

It is a challenging team effort. Keep it as it is.

magnusthorek · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

As someone who very, very rarely find people truly committed to do achievements due to my f-up timezone, I'd really like to get the achievements regardless if other players in the group died.

It's frustrating! Every time I play, I'm fully committed. Still, I'm often grouped with new players, ESO+ members who have no clue what to do on DLC dungeons because they get carried away by others or worse! People playing drunk or under the influence of narcotics, legal and illegal, not to mention fake tanks and healers.

Sir_Gentleman777 · February 2023

Then explain to me, why people still do trifectas and also achieve them.

Just because something is very difficult, it does not mean it has to be removed. If you can't achieve the trifectas then it is a you-problem and not that the trifectas are too difficult.

Trifectas are not meant to be easy, just in case you haven't noticed. And yes, trifectas are a group achievement the same as vet dungeons and trials are a group achievement. Everybody has the option to join or build guilds. Get one and you have people that you can push to trifecta runs. Git gud and also you will be able to do trifectas, but nobody forces you to do any trifecta.

And if you find it stressful to run trials, learn mechanics, do trifectas and whatever other achievement, you should ask yourself if ESO is even the right game for you. I do run trifectas, HM trials and dungeons, I raidlead and i truly enjoy the game. But i never found the game to be stressful. What is stressful however, are many players that want to get served from silver platters and who don't want to improve. Players that buy carry runs and then think they are the best players in the world just because somebody got their title for them.

acastanza_ESO · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

While I agree that this poll is fundamentally flawed due to the lack of a "Keep it as it is" option, I do lean towards making no-death specifically an individual achievement.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not and it’s unlikely to ever be given the servers this game has utilizing and the difficulty the team has working through the engine ESO is ran on, so we need to accommodate accordingly.

This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package for home internet within my area at around 500+ Mbps DS, 20+ Mbps US, netting zero packet loss with a consistent latency of 60ms.

There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

Also, when using the Guild Finder, look at the number of players within those guilds. It’s easy to see how a feature like Housing is much more accessible to the wider playerbase while something akin to Veteran Trials have you telling your decently skilled friends they can’t pull up for your hard modes as you have strangers that are better and will ensure the clear.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

FantasticFreddie · February 2023

Mmm. There are bugs, it's true. And they can be most irritating.

But here's the thing: trifectas are not impossible with the bugs.
People also tend to blame bugs when actually, they just messed up.

"Oh I thought I was blocking but I wasn't! Must be the block bug!" Is a much easier idea to stomach vrs the much, much more common "I wasn't managing my stamina properly and didn't have enough to block the third hit in a row"

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

Sure, there may be some issues with how their servers are structured. That's not what I said, referred to, or discussed.

I'm talking about the time it takes for the signal to literally travel to the servers and back. Please at least read what I'm saying before making an argument about a different thing.

It’s completely tied together, if you can’t make the connection, that’s on your end.

You’re stating that there is nothing that can be done to improve performance, as it defies laws of physics, yet we have a default time of 2 seconds in-between input and result, something unseen on other games. Locking it in at 2 seconds should more than compensate players for input delay, anything past 2 seconds should be a result of packet loss or high ping. It’s not currently.

tmbrinks · February 2023

Can't vote on any, as the poll is biased.

Group achievements are for groups. Individual achievements are for individuals.

If you don't have the time, skill, or patience to do group achievements... it's okay, you don't need to do them.

If your first instinct is "It's my groupmate's fault we "lost"... I was "perfect", I should get my reward regardless" I don't want you in my raid group, my sports team, or my work team.

Psiion · February 2023

Greetings all,

After editing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone to stick to the threads original topic and keep the Community Rules in mind. We understand that debates and disagreements are bound to occur on a discussion forum, but posts must always stay respectful and on topic.

Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind.

the1andonlyskwex · February 2023

One of the skills that these group achievements are meant to reward is the ability to put together a group with the requisite mechanical skills. Social skills are still skills.

Kesstryl · February 2023

I've never achieved a Trifecta for trials, and only got them for the easiest base game dungeons, and I'm perfectly happy letting others have that challenge. I don't care personally. The only thing I hate is housing items being locked to hard mode vet content as carpal tunnel prevents me from high APM. Let the sweaty hands have their impossible achievements though.

Seminolegirl1992 · February 2023

None, absolutely none of these. I only have two trifectas. I'm well aware that that's more than most will ever achieve. I'm also willing to accept that in all likelihood, I won't get planesbreaker. Game performance aside, not *everything* needs to be accessible to everyone. What's the point of difficult content if everyone can do it? And yes, it requires all members to perform flawlessly but that's why it's such a huge reward when the group completes it.

Amottica · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

Amottica · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

I was not speaking at all to the challenges Zenimax has been facing fixing performance but that tossing ram to fix poorly optimized code is akin to putting a bandaid on a major gash. It has very little effect and that is a known aspect of computer performance.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

We're getting new hardware and a re-architecure. I don't think that their ability to fix things decreasing during a nationwide pandemic means that the fixes they are implementing now will only be temporary. A new server is a pretty serious change. So is a re-architecure. A lot of games would have sunset and put out a sequel before doing those things imo.

Therefore I don't think that their server performance is a reason to change trifectas. I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, but I'd be okay if they just left it alone as well. I mostly lean towards doing it because it might get more people willing to try.

Amottica · February 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

We're getting new hardware and a re-architecure. I don't think that their ability to fix things decreasing during a nationwide pandemic means that the fixes they are implementing now will only be temporary. A new server is a pretty serious change. So is a re-architecure. A lot of games would have sunset and put out a sequel before doing those things imo.

Therefore I don't think that their server performance is a reason to change trifectas. I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, but I'd be okay if they just left it alone as well. I mostly lean towards doing it because it might get more people willing to try.

I agree.

Even with the performance issues many are getting the trifectas and with the expected improvements (fingers crossed) it will be even better. That does not mean perfect as those of us that have played various MMORPG titles over the years can attest that issues will always happen and at the worst possible time. That is just life and nothing will eliminate everything.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

We're getting new hardware and a re-architecure. I don't think that their ability to fix things decreasing during a nationwide pandemic means that the fixes they are implementing now will only be temporary. A new server is a pretty serious change. So is a re-architecure. A lot of games would have sunset and put out a sequel before doing those things imo.

Therefore I don't think that their server performance is a reason to change trifectas. I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, but I'd be okay if they just left it alone as well. I mostly lean towards doing it because it might get more people willing to try.

Words, they’ve been stating similar words for years, all the way back to 2016 when the lighting patch ruined everything.

If it’s not visible, it’s not happening.
Plan accordingly.

PC/NA performance improved drastically after the server refresh and then proceeded to deteriorate months later. Love the game conceptually, but unlike that famous saying, love is not blinding.

Funny thing about working on Live Services, it’s all work done online. This excuse of “well it was a pandemic” so it’s excusable to claim that we were getting a year of performance that actually improved nothing has no grounding. There aren’t little elves turning knobs behind the scene, they are clicking mice, typing keys, and forwarding files in collaboration.

MasterSpatula · February 2023

You've done a good job of articulating why trying for these achievements is completely insane, subjecting oneself to radically unfair situations that you'd have to be a severe masochist to enjoy.

You haven't articulated why completely insane severe masochists shouldn't be allowed to enjoy achieving inane, severely masochistic goals.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

We're getting new hardware and a re-architecure. I don't think that their ability to fix things decreasing during a nationwide pandemic means that the fixes they are implementing now will only be temporary. A new server is a pretty serious change. So is a re-architecure. A lot of games would have sunset and put out a sequel before doing those things imo.

Therefore I don't think that their server performance is a reason to change trifectas. I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, but I'd be okay if they just left it alone as well. I mostly lean towards doing it because it might get more people willing to try.

Words, they’ve been stating similar words for years, all the way back to 2016 when the lighting patch ruined everything.

If the problem was with the game's architecture and base code, then ofc those fixes didn't help.

To me it's like they've had a drafty house that needed a new roof and windows. They've been plugging holes and buying those little draft plushies for the windows for years but it's never helped. Now they've admitted they needed new roof and windows and are installing them. Regardless if the plushie failed, there's no way new windows and a roof are meaningless. And we have watched them actually implement changes, it hasn't just been words. We can see the results with the no-proc campaigns, group size limits, and new champion points system.

I don't see a point in changing things like the trifecta achievement for that reason just because those more minor fixes failed. Although I suspect pvp won't ever hit it's performance peak since some pvpers have mentioned the big problems started with them moving some things server side from client side or something like that.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Chevaliemew wrote: »

You seem to lose focus. What I was trying to give idea of how taxing trial trifecta is mostly due to Game not working properly. It often prolongs progressions by weeks. There is not way of having your death forgiven if you are dying due to the bug and whole groups pays for it. As mentioned we are only people and by default we are selfish. What you see is your own perspective. But there are also people whose job depends on delegations in certain seasons greatly diminishing ability to participate in the progression for the whole duration. Then what? You reprog with another group? It obviosly takes months again and again. Most people don't have this kind of time to play constantly for 4-5 months to finally overcome bugs and minor mistakes.

The bugs 100% should be fixed. And it seems like ZOS is listening to us and going to focus on that now. But actually, I'm in the boat you describe. In fact, I've been playing since 2014 and I'm not sure I have any trifecta achievements. I have some hard-won no death runs. I work a lot, including periodic travel, and I definitely don't have time to play constantly for 4 - 5 months.

But these achievements are SUPPOSED to be like that, even without the bugs. They are meant to be for folks who want to get coordination down to an art and feel that satisfaction of finally winning after months of trying. Not everyone enjoys that level of effort, and that's totally fine. But as someone who doesn't even have most of these achievements, I am saying that they should be left alone for those folks who enjoy that kind of experience. There is the whole rest of ESO to check out if you don't enjoy chasing them. There are certain clears and achievements I will never forget, because the group worked so long and hard towards them and the cheering and feeling of accomplishment when all 12 people are screaming "yeah!! alright!! we did it!!!" is burned into my brain as an awesome memory. The tiny part of the game (a handful of achievements, compared to the entire catalog of them) which supports that kind of experience should be left the way they are.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I have run thousands of trials, almost half of them have been PUG runs and you find quite a few groups that meet the parameters of a trifecta in terms of speed and hard mode, but never obtain it over someone’s random death due to any list of reasons.

Being funneled into a core group, doesn’t encourage social interaction, it’s the most restrictive aspect of raiding. Our communities overall skill level would be higher if Trials encouraged us at the top to step down and play with beginners and run more PUGs.

If you’re facing any confusion about whether or not players are more interested in a system like Housing over something as toxic and antisocial as Veteran Trials, open up the Guild Finder.

I would argue that playing in pugs need more rewards, if enough people aren't encouraged to run them, but the reward shouldn't be changing the current group achievements. Maybe add some personal achievements to go alongside the group ones. Maybe add a currency that can only buy "group" cosmetics which is doled out at the end of trials and dungeons.

I'll also add that I also frequently participate in PUG runs, because my schedule is not typical, and the fact that I don't ever obtain a no death or trifecta run from those PUGs does not decrease my enjoyment of the experience or keep me from participating. There is room for BOTH progression and PUGs. I do both. You do both. There's no reason to sacrifice one play style/experience for the other.

Lastly, the Guild Finder tells me how many guilds have been created. That's it. It doesn't tell me how many hours each player has logged into housing vs. raiding vs. PvP or whatever. That's one lens, and it isn't even a great one because a lot of raiding is organized through Discords. I do agree that anecdotally it feels like end game is hurting a bit, but I don't agree at ALL that it is because these achievements are too hard or that the experience is too toxic. I run into toxic people raiding... and toxic people in PvP... and toxic people who are rude about gathering nodes. That's just part of interacting with humanity. I've run into amazingly helpful and supporting people while raiding, too. What impacted end game was the massive disruption U33 and U35 brought, causing many longtime players to quit or take a break from the game. Changing a few achievements won't fix that. ZOS listening to the feedback, adjusting, and giving us a better reward structure for repeating content might.

I agree that the fundamental problem is the lack of a meaningful reward structure within running PUGs, making Trifecta’s individualized would still encourage team play, and still reward team play.

Individualizing it would just forgive the desync people often face when playing this game, if you want to see something that will blow your mind, have two accounts set up on screens next to each other, and watch how long it takes player one on the 1st monitor to get from point A to point B from the 2nd monitor, the difference is absolutely disgusting. There’s around a 2 second delay in input registration completely server-side… this is why people lose all of their resources and then die, or die from AoEs they are not inside of. The ticking clock of ESO registers your death before it’s visible, as that 2 second delay isn’t the same for everyone.

Sometimes it’s a 2.1 second delay, other times 2.2, oftentimes just a flat 2. If every player’s inputs were being registered and processed at the same intervals it would be a simple fix to the desync problem, but it’s not. This has nothing to do with player connection or specs, but server instability as I’m speaking from a Series S with the highest internet package possible netting zero packet loss. There’s no loss of information traveling to and from the servers from my end, yet I, aswell as everyone else, frequently fall victim to desync.

That's basic physics. The information can only travel at a maximum of the speed of light (and no connection is that quick). The data has to be sent from your computer, to the server, back to your computer so you will ALWAYS have lag, no "quality of connection" no "fixing of bugs" can violate the laws of physics.

Yet ESO is the only game I’ve played that suffers such an extreme fluctuation of it.

Hosted games do not experience that problem, server ran ones should less, as both players are connecting to a central point.

They would be more.. since it has to go all the way to the central server and then back.

Hosted games have much less travel distance, hence less lag.

ESO used to do much more client side. Then people decided to cheat. So they had to take it away.

It’s proven that Hosted matchmaking is worse on performance than Server side, yet our Server performs worse than if we were to be hosting each other, the problem is clear as day, ESO’s dedicated servers do not have enough RAM to deal with all of the inputs being added without becoming throttled.

If we’re going to have pinnacle achievements reliant on 12 players maintaining stability on servers, those servers need to be able to support 12 people.

This would be clear as day of the code was written and organized to the most efficient level. We know that’s not the case since Zenimax is in the process of rewriting the server side code to make it more efficient.

We’ve been hearing the same song and dance since launch, remember the “Year of Performance?”
Me neither.

Seeing the problem for what it is, acknowledging that any “fix” they provide to our servers will only be temporary, and pushing for content that these servers can actually handle, is the only approach that will progress ESO.

We're getting new hardware and a re-architecure. I don't think that their ability to fix things decreasing during a nationwide pandemic means that the fixes they are implementing now will only be temporary. A new server is a pretty serious change. So is a re-architecure. A lot of games would have sunset and put out a sequel before doing those things imo.

Therefore I don't think that their server performance is a reason to change trifectas. I wouldn't be opposed to such a change, but I'd be okay if they just left it alone as well. I mostly lean towards doing it because it might get more people willing to try.

Words, they’ve been stating similar words for years, all the way back to 2016 when the lighting patch ruined everything.

If the problem was with the game's architecture and base code, then ofc those fixes didn't help.

To me it's like they've had a drafty house that needed a new roof and windows. They've been plugging holes and buying those little draft plushies for the windows for years but it's never helped. Now they've admitted they needed new roof and windows and are installing them. Regardless if the plushie failed, there's no way new windows and a roof are meaningless. And we have watched them actually implement changes, it hasn't just been words. We can see the results with the no-proc campaigns, group size limits, and new champion points system.

I don't see a point in changing things like the trifecta achievement for that reason just because those more minor fixes failed. Although I suspect pvp won't ever hit it's performance peak since some pvpers have mentioned the big problems started with them moving some things server side from client side or something like that.

“I’d rather be pleasantly surprised, than fatally disappointed.” - Julia Glass

Living by that standard will go a long way towards tempering expectations. When our expectations are through the roof, they will never be met, and we will experience one disappointment after another.

Years have tempered my expectations of this game, so while a fix to performance would be incredible; I won’t hold my breath.

Assurances don’t mean a thing until you have visible results, and all you have to do is head into Cyrodiil during pop-cap to see that only one of your abilities are going off every other second.

Quality has deteriorated, not improved.

Achievements and balance need to be updated in line with respect to this, as getting burned by poor performance while trying to achieve anything is going to push players away, as you’ve mentioned.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Achievements and balance need to be updated in line with respect to this, as getting burned by poor performance while trying to achieve anything is going to push players away, as you’ve mentioned.

I don't necessarily expect performance to be completely fixed, but I do expect there to be a noticeable improvement after a big change.

I think balancing based off pessimism before the changes are even finished is putting the cart before the horse.

I prefer a more neutral/science approach to these kinds of matters. I prepare for the worst, but I don't assume it will happen.

Instead, I'd rather make an assessment of the situation. Plan out a fix. Implement the fix. See what the results turned out to be, and make changes based off actual results rather than either positive or negative assumptions.

Since the fix has not happened, I find it premature to make changes to the trifecta system. This is why I haven't renewed my plus yet, and am seriously considering not renewing it at all. But, I also haven't just left the game. I'll wait and see how it turns out. If it turns out badly, oh well, at least there was a try. If it turns out well, then that's a good thing.

But, that's just me personally.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Achievements and balance need to be updated in line with respect to this, as getting burned by poor performance while trying to achieve anything is going to push players away, as you’ve mentioned.

I don't necessarily expect performance to be completely fixed, but I do expect there to be a noticeable improvement after a big change.

I think balancing based off pessimism before the changes are even finished is putting the cart before the horse.

I prefer a more neutral/science approach to these kinds of matters. I prepare for the worst, but I don't assume it will happen.

Instead, I'd rather make an assessment of the situation. Plan out a fix. Implement the fix. See what the results turned out to be, and make changes based off actual results rather than either positive or negative assumptions.

Since the fix has not happened, I find it premature to make changes to the trifecta system. This is why I haven't renewed my plus yet, and am seriously considering not renewing it at all. But, I also haven't just left the game. I'll wait and see how it turns out. If it turns out badly, oh well, at least there was a try. If it turns out well, then that's a good thing.

But, that's just me personally.

I can respect that, and understand completely.

I’ve been in the same boat… after the block bug ruined over a month of Planesbreaker progression, aswell as any semblance of competition in PvP, I dropped my subscription.

I now own all of the DLC and am purchasing them outright here on out, at least until we have noticeable lasting improvements to our game. Premium subscriptions demand premium products, and that’s not what we’ve been getting.

Balancing for pessimism is not by any means what I’m suggesting, I’m suggesting that with 12 different contingents upon perfection, you’re banking on stability, in a game notoriously lacking it.

Individualizing it would not make it any easier, just faster, and more social, as you don’t have to exclude others when forming groups, a change like that would enable a more relaxed approach to filling the last one or two spots.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Grant Trifecta Achievement Individually (For Player, not the Group)

Also, @Chevaliemew, you should change the header for this post to “Suggestions for Trifecta Achievements” and to acknowledge the possibility that people won’t like any of the options you provide for future polls by either having an “Other” option or a “No Change Necessary” one.

Naming your post “Removal of Trifecta Achievements” is as abrasive as sandpaper to people as the overwhelmingly vast majority of us can all agree that these need to remain a thing, whether we disagree about the form they should take or not.