Reactive Gameplay and Molten Whip

Sergykid · February 2023

yall exaggerate, always expect a dk to have a full whip when engaging. If u see him casting flames and a breath or claw then it's obvious.
also what reaction u want cuz a stacked whip will be used on a fossilized target. Now u want a fossilize indicator, right?

dk will always make stacks for whip, u can't deny that, it only needs to cast abilities and not even hit u with it, even if u dodge a claw, a stack has been gained. It's part of how dk works, an indicator will be useless and just more visual clutter

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

The best Dragonknights don’t exclusively use 3-stack whips, they take advantage of the “mix-up” to confuse players on how low they can drop their health as a means to ensure a kill.

ie; If I hit you with a Ferocious Leap then Molten Whip and it puts you from full health to 2/3 of your bar, you’re going to assume that you’re safe as long as you don’t reach 1/3rd of your bar.

High skill gameplay rewards confusing your opponent, and being able to switch up from a 1/3rd cut of a health bar to a half or more with no indication or reactive measures is a massive problem; at least with a proper indication you can see how hard an individual whip hits when stacked up so you can just simply add that damage to whatever the leap hit and know where to keep your bar around.

Outside of random critical hits, you can gauge damage appropriately with every other class, except for Dragonknight… the outlier.

Edit; Have any doubt about the power of a mix-up? It’s the exact reason why Balorgh is so deadly, it acts the same way by unpredictably ramping damage, an opponent that’s got their guard down, is a dead one.

OBJnoob · February 2023

So Tim and I met up to duel. He won... Not sure what else to say. He killed me twice I believe-- I killed him once, and we had a lot of stalemates but if I'm being honest he was winning most of those.

I think he'll agree that I held my own. But more impressive than him beating me-- he then went to a dueler I consider to be one of the best I personally know and he beat him twice in a row. VERY impressive.

More impressive still, Tim plays a lot of different characters, and he brought like 4 of them to fight. He plays many specs at a high level.

But now, back to the topic at hand: one of Tim's characters was a MagDK. I got to see first hand the effects of some polymorphs on the visual indicators and... Well, they completely go away. There was actually one funny part of the duel where he was hitting me hella hard and I was slow to react because of this issue. I started laughing (we were on mic with eachother,) and I said to him "are you in corrosive? Be honest!" And he said "Haha, sure am."

SO! @Sergykid while I originally agreed with you, I must say, I think we are wrong. When in small/large scale battles the chaos is often such that you couldn't really keep track of all the enemies anyway-- in which case intuition and decent play can carry you through-- but in 1v1 scenarios where both players can focus on eachother the indicators are very important to counterplays.

I don't know how high this problem is on MY list of things that needs fixing... But it does need fixing.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

Well if either of you were any good, Tim and OBJ, you wouldn't've been using Whip at all in a duel. Good players only use Ground AoE DoTs against each other, because if you die to any skill which can be both blocked and dodged - you're a bad player.

I learnt that here from the best of the best over the years

danno8 · February 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well if either of you were any good, Tim and OBJ, you wouldn't've been using Whip at all in a duel. Good players only use Ground AoE DoTs against each other, because if you die to any skill which can be both blocked and dodged - you're a bad player.

I learnt that here from the best of the best over the years

That sounds like a challenge to either of them to me...

...unless I am missing the sarcasm.

OBJnoob · February 2023

LOL

Urzigurumash · February 2023

danno8 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well if either of you were any good, Tim and OBJ, you wouldn't've been using Whip at all in a duel. Good players only use Ground AoE DoTs against each other, because if you die to any skill which can be both blocked and dodged - you're a bad player.

I learnt that here from the best of the best over the years

That sounds like a challenge to either of them to me...

...unless I am missing the sarcasm.

Soon as I see a player using a single target direct damage skill against me I log out, no way I'm dying to a bad player

VaranisArano · February 2023

So from what I'm seeing and hearing:

Polymorphs masking the effects are a problem
Other DK skills masking the effect are a problem

So that would seem to indicate that the counterplay is adjusting visual effects to allow the opponent to better see what's coming. I've got no problem with that change - though I also think that part of the answer is reducing the ability of players to cleverly mask effects by wearing cosmetics like atronach polymorphs/skins. ZOS disabled certain disguises in Cyrodiil for similar reasons, it's worse that most polymorphs come from the crown store/crates.

But at least one player here thinks it doesn't matter even if you can clearly see the visual effects "a huge flashing light" because the melee-focused DK can lock you down and thus you can't possibly react once you've gotten yourself stuck in that position.

So what counterplay is enough?

StaticWave · February 2023

I think the counter play requires more than just having an indicator. It also depends on the match up. A clearly visible indicator for Whip will benefit mobile ranged players because they know it’s time to kite. For melee players though, not so much. Eventually they still have to fight the DK in melee range and that’s when Fossilize will certainly guarantee Whip to land.

With that said, we also can’t just nerf Fossilize. I’m honestly not quite sure how to even go about balancing this ability without making it unusable for the DK lol.

ForumBully · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the counter play requires more than just having an indicator. It also depends on the match up. A clearly visible indicator for Whip will benefit mobile ranged players because they know it’s time to kite. For melee players though, not so much. Eventually they still have to fight the DK in melee range and that’s when Fossilize will certainly guarantee Whip to land.

With that said, we also can’t just nerf Fossilize. I’m honestly not quite sure how to even go about balancing this ability without making it unusable for the DK lol.

I really hope no attempt is made to balance whip. Does no one else remember what happened with balancing Jabs?

danno8 · February 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well if either of you were any good, Tim and OBJ, you wouldn't've been using Whip at all in a duel. Good players only use Ground AoE DoTs against each other, because if you die to any skill which can be both blocked and dodged - you're a bad player.

I learnt that here from the best of the best over the years

That sounds like a challenge to either of them to me...

...unless I am missing the sarcasm.

Soon as I see a player using a single target direct damage skill against me I log out, no way I'm dying to a bad player

My inside joke detector and sarcasm meter are both confirming my initial suspicions. Good to give them a workout every now and then.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the counter play requires more than just having an indicator. It also depends on the match up. A clearly visible indicator for Whip will benefit mobile ranged players because they know it’s time to kite. For melee players though, not so much. Eventually they still have to fight the DK in melee range and that’s when Fossilize will certainly guarantee Whip to land.

With that said, we also can’t just nerf Fossilize. I’m honestly not quite sure how to even go about balancing this ability without making it unusable for the DK lol.

I really hope no attempt is made to balance whip. Does no one else remember what happened with balancing Jabs?

No one is asking for them to change to the damage, stacks, or the core way it functions. However, it absolutely stands to reason it needs more counterplay like a visual indicator (once again, unlike now this can be used at partial charge or no charge and still hits comparable to surprise attack or greater. This is the problem).

ForumBully · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the counter play requires more than just having an indicator. It also depends on the match up. A clearly visible indicator for Whip will benefit mobile ranged players because they know it’s time to kite. For melee players though, not so much. Eventually they still have to fight the DK in melee range and that’s when Fossilize will certainly guarantee Whip to land.

With that said, we also can’t just nerf Fossilize. I’m honestly not quite sure how to even go about balancing this ability without making it unusable for the DK lol.

I really hope no attempt is made to balance whip. Does no one else remember what happened with balancing Jabs?

No one is asking for them to change to the damage, stacks, or the core way it functions. However, it absolutely stands to reason it needs more counterplay like a visual indicator (once again, unlike now this can be used at partial charge or no charge and still hits comparable to surprise attack or greater. This is the problem).

No one asked for what happened to jabs either.

Vevvev · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?

It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.

It’s so insignificant that it leaves doubt.

Not really, but as someone pointed out it can get lost in the shuffle, but on it's own it's glaring obvious.

No stacks

1 Stack

2 Stacks

3 Stacks

edit to put the images in spoiler tags.

So I’ve finally been able to grab my pictures, here is the same effect shown earlier, but with a Polymorph on, and it is MUCH worse with the Iron Atronach one...

3 Stack, no other effects

3 Stack, with Flames of Oblivion

3 Stack, with FoO and Green Dragon’s Blood

Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that there is zero chance you are going to be able to track the stacks from any of these animations. It’s completely masked, leading back to discussion…

Are the visual queues enough?
No.
Should they be more prominent?
Yes.

What in the world.... okay, that's definitely a problem as it seems it's conformed to the default character model with polymorphs messing it up. I say they should fix the polymorphs, but there is another way to fix this problem.

Enable the ability to see buffs and debuffs applied by other people in settings, or an addon which will probably be cleaner, and you'll be able to see the Seething Fury stacks on the target's buff bar under their health.

I believe the icon is that pair of eyes, but I'd have to get ingame to take a picture of it.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the counter play requires more than just having an indicator. It also depends on the match up. A clearly visible indicator for Whip will benefit mobile ranged players because they know it’s time to kite. For melee players though, not so much. Eventually they still have to fight the DK in melee range and that’s when Fossilize will certainly guarantee Whip to land.

With that said, we also can’t just nerf Fossilize. I’m honestly not quite sure how to even go about balancing this ability without making it unusable for the DK lol.

I really hope no attempt is made to balance whip. Does no one else remember what happened with balancing Jabs?

No one is asking for them to change to the damage, stacks, or the core way it functions. However, it absolutely stands to reason it needs more counterplay like a visual indicator (once again, unlike now this can be used at partial charge or no charge and still hits comparable to surprise attack or greater. This is the problem).

No one asked for what happened to jabs either.

Not to derail.

Templar main here, the problem with Jabs and why they attacked the damage was specifically due to the fact that the ability had so many flavors to it, it was an AoE snare that granted Major Savagery, when all of the abilities were looked into, the damage was reduced to scale with those variables where the ability needed more of a delicate approach, as it’s considered a channel, it should have made up for the AoE aspect at least.

Molten Whip is a single target direct damage ability that can be dodged if predicted, therefore it should be balanced as such. the damage is warranted, it just needs more reliable telegraphs, also, most players with more than 33% stamina will never die to Fossilize + Molten Whips, whenever I finally die fighting that class (when I’m not on it), it’s usually to DoT Dragonknight’s running cancer proc sets, or to a Balorgh Ferocious Leap + Molten Whip mix-up. Rarely will I ever die to a Fossilize combo, hard stuns only really punish players that have exhausted their resources.

Also, @OBJnoob great duels, I had a blast, still can’t get over how awesome it was when we headed to Bergama and after we had been dueling a few minutes we looked over and saw that girl sitting in her chair watching us, even more surprised to see her compliment after. We might have inspired her to start getting into PvP!

Sergykid · February 2023

what indicator a nb has that its a.w. is ready to fire?

against a dk, indicator or not, u still gonna get hit by the whip, it's not like if u know it's coming u can do anything about it.

no point arguing about a counterplay that even if it exists or not, it does nothing. Counterplay are for telegraphs and or delayed, like meteor ult.

and, @OBJnoob , was there any point to have u know enemy's stacks of whip?

OBJnoob · February 2023

@Sergykid I found not being able to know about Corrosive more problematic than not knowing about the whip stacks. The whips occur often and is predictable to a certain extent, as both you and I were saying.

But I am on a small-scale build and Tim was on a higher damage less tanky build. Which is why I apologized to him several times for our stalemates because it was I who was dressed slightly inappropriately.

So those of us that small-scale or X may have builds that block FREQUENTLY and just feel like we block half the whips anyway with our eyes closed so who cares? But in 1v1 scenarios, with people built around 1v1, it really does matter. It's a different meta... The best aren't running defensive sets. They rely on reactions, and performing certain costly actions ONLY when necessary.

@The_Titan_Tim yes, great duels. Like I said I may like some rematches in the near future. But I think we accomplished our goal.

Yeah that chick was pretty funny watching us in the middle of the desert. Like she mustve zoned in on her way to something but was like hold the phone... What's this??

Caribou77 · February 2023

Nice work drawing an audience of the fairer variety to your duels. Too bad no one got a screenshot. 😁

OBJnoob · February 2023

I told him he wasn't allowed to take screenshots if he was gonna win 😝

Iriidius · February 2023

Molten whip already was nerfed, it used to be 100% extra dmg, now it is only 60% more dmg than normal whip. Dizzy swing and power lash already do 20% more dmg than normal molten whip, as much as 1 stack molten whip and 75% of 3 stack molten whip. 3 stack molten whip deals only slightly more dmg than blastbones and deep fissure and lower dmg than even the base morph of assassins will(mag morph deals 15% more) and these skills are usually comboed with a dizzy swing/concealed weapon/other spammable, while 3 stack molten whip dmg already includes molten whip spammable dmg. You can use deep breath as delayed spammable but most dks dont. Crystal frag procs deal comparable dmg to 3 stack molten whip.
And it shouldt be so difficult to remember if the dk used Noxious breath, venemous claw and Flames of Oblivion before using the whip or not, but 60% of a standart spammable as extra dmg isnt that much anyway and wont kill you alone.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

Iriidius wrote: »

Molten whip already was nerfed, it used to be 100% extra dmg, now it is only 60% more dmg than normal whip. Dizzy swing and power lash already do 20% more dmg than normal molten whip, as much as 1 stack molten whip and 75% of 3 stack molten whip. 3 stack molten whip deals only slightly more dmg than blastbones and deep fissure and lower dmg than even the base morph of assassins will(mag morph deals 15% more) and these skills are usually comboed with a dizzy swing/concealed weapon/other spammable, while 3 stack molten whip dmg already includes molten whip spammable dmg. You can use deep breath as delayed spammable but most dks dont. Crystal frag procs deal comparable dmg to 3 stack molten whip.
And it shouldt be so difficult to remember if the dk used Noxious breath, venemous claw and Flames of Oblivion before using the whip or not, but 60% of a standart spammable as extra dmg isnt that much anyway and wont kill you alone.

Once again, as previously mentioned. Every other one of those either is telegraphed in some meaningful way, has a minimum travel time, and/or has a cast time.

The biggest problem is that the majority of those don’t moonlight as a standard spammable or a partially empowered spammable. This is why it either needs a minimum time before hit and/or a better visual indicator (at least for full charge). Especially with as many effects that there are in combat.

robpr · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Once again, as previously mentioned. Every other one of those either is telegraphed in some meaningful way, has a minimum travel time, and/or has a cast time.

The biggest problem is that the majority of those don’t moonlight as a standard spammable or a partially empowered spammable. This is why it either needs a minimum time before hit and/or a better visual indicator (at least for full charge). Especially with as many effects that there are in combat.

Has travel time? Yes. Is telegraphed? Not really. You don't see NB holding bow stacks. You don't see Shalks if they were cast outside of view (there is that cyan ring on the feet but its visuals are lost in the fight fervor and completely disappear on the second proc). You don't see Sorc having frag proc ready (there are particles on hands, that are lost when using Hurricane/Boundless). Purifying Light has no fancy sword like Power of the Light so you don't see exact time it blows.

I'm for more reactive visuals but if there is a need to add them, all classes should have them applied equally. And travel time is not an excuse as Whip or Dizzy can also be dodged.

Best proper telegraphs are Bound Armaments and Blastbones at the moment, where you can see clearly amount of charges and BB has a loud sound before its charge.

Some excessive obscuring visuals should also look at, Dragon Blood, Boundless, Ice destro shield and so on.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Once again, as previously mentioned. Every other one of those either is telegraphed in some meaningful way, has a minimum travel time, and/or has a cast time.

The biggest problem is that the majority of those don’t moonlight as a standard spammable or a partially empowered spammable. This is why it either needs a minimum time before hit and/or a better visual indicator (at least for full charge). Especially with as many effects that there are in combat.

Has travel time? Yes. Is telegraphed? Not really. You don't see NB holding bow stacks. You don't see Shalks if they were cast outside of view (there is that cyan ring on the feet but its visuals are lost in the fight fervor and completely disappear on the second proc). You don't see Sorc having frag proc ready (there are particles on hands, that are lost when using Hurricane/Boundless). Purifying Light has no fancy sword like Power of the Light so you don't see exact time it blows.

I'm for more reactive visuals but if there is a need to add them, all classes should have them applied equally. And travel time is not an excuse as Whip or Dizzy can also be dodged.

Best proper telegraphs are Bound Armaments and Blastbones at the moment, where you can see clearly amount of charges and BB has a loud sound before its charge.

Some excessive obscuring visuals should also look at, Dragon Blood, Boundless, Ice destro shield and so on.

I want to agree with what you wrote as the result aligns with what I would like to see, but you lost me at comparing Molten Whip to Backlash and “Whip or Dizzy can also be dodged.”

Dizzy has a cast time, Whip does not. You might accidently dodge a whip, or preventatively dodge it off of instinct or from recognizing the pattern of your opponent, but you are never going to see a backflipping whip and make the connection in your brain, back to your controller, in the time it takes to react to the damage applying, as it applies the second you press the button. There’s no cast time, there’s minimal indication, there’s zero travel time.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I agree that Spectral Bow needs an andequate indicator when it’s holstered, I agree.

Shalks make an extremely loud sound when the player hits the ground so if you can’t see it, which I don’t get how you couldn’t, you can hear it, it’s very distinct.

Purifying Light does less damage than a spammable, and the visuals and sound progressively change as it’s about to go off.

Honestly referencing Backlash as a comparison to Molten Whip would probably have to be the funniest thing I’ve seen all week.

Crystal Fragments might not have a very good visual indicator; but the ability has a travel time as it’s ranged, and hits less than both. Even more so when the target is a Vampire, something all players in PvP are pigeonholed into being if they aren’t a Werewolf.

All in all, we need better reactional AND strategic gameplay, whatever gets us there, I’m all for, lowering damage isn’t the answer, I want reasons to accept why certain abilities hit as hard as they do. Right now, that isn’t Molten Whip.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Once again, as previously mentioned. Every other one of those either is telegraphed in some meaningful way, has a minimum travel time, and/or has a cast time.

The biggest problem is that the majority of those don’t moonlight as a standard spammable or a partially empowered spammable. This is why it either needs a minimum time before hit and/or a better visual indicator (at least for full charge). Especially with as many effects that there are in combat.

Has travel time? Yes. Is telegraphed? Not really. You don't see NB holding bow stacks. You don't see Shalks if they were cast outside of view (there is that cyan ring on the feet but its visuals are lost in the fight fervor and completely disappear on the second proc). You don't see Sorc having frag proc ready (there are particles on hands, that are lost when using Hurricane/Boundless). Purifying Light has no fancy sword like Power of the Light so you don't see exact time it blows.

I'm for more reactive visuals but if there is a need to add them, all classes should have them applied equally. And travel time is not an excuse as Whip or Dizzy can also be dodged.

Best proper telegraphs are Bound Armaments and Blastbones at the moment, where you can see clearly amount of charges and BB has a loud sound before its charge.

Some excessive obscuring visuals should also look at, Dragon Blood, Boundless, Ice destro shield and so on.

With most of those, you see the initial effect (aside from bow stacks), and could easily count in your head or use game sense in order to avoid them. Beetles is easily avoidable by moving slightly, necro BB is on obvious block, bow with min travel time is an easy roll/block, sorc frags are an easy roll/block (min travel time and/or cast time, Templar’s light just hits like a noodle so avoid other dmg.

They are not in your face melee moves with a charge you can hold and release like a standard spammable.