OBJnoob wrote: »

I think the problem with the PvE side of things is that it's just too easy to reach the pen cap and they don't really need/want it. But yes, I'm sure this addition would be received much better than the other replacement was. More is more. Trade two pieces of LA for MA-- good to go.

I still wouldn't like it TBH it would be a nerf of 900 penetration to bleed wardens and a loss of 2900 to me. And this is from a PvP perspective now, where I'm not necessarily gonna get minor breach from anywhere else because of bar space.

Of course I could just use WoF, but I'd rather not. I think it's a much better backbar skill than a frontbar skill because it procs weapon enchants. Kinda ironic, right? I wouldn't want to use it BECAUSE I use a frost staff. Better skills available for front bar-- especially if it doesn't immobilize anymore.

Honestly I think 2H wrecking blow wardens are gonna be the thing next patch though. It was always a halfway silly idea to make frost staffs their thing... But it was kinda balanced in a way. The flat damage done on frost staves roughly equalled the better damage passives and executes available on stam variants. Major berserk will make that go away.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

Thanks for the details, Kevin. Really do appreciate it. You mentioned they want to make it useful for more situations in PVE - which situations would those be?

I think they are putting the AoE Minor Breach and Slow as a "more useful for PvE" thought.

Which if you are in a Group, Minor Breach should be taken care of already and Slow is ok-ish. But that's precisely why we want the Unstable Morph to be something different, more useful for DPS, like increased damage to chilled targets or chilled procs to targets on the Unstable AoE affect a larger area.

I generally think there are more interesting things they could do, away from the Major Minor Buff/Debuff system, that could be much more interesting with a bit of imagination

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

Thanks for the details, Kevin. Really do appreciate it. You mentioned they want to make it useful for more situations in PVE - which situations would those be?

I think they are putting the AoE Minor Breach and Slow as a "more useful for PvE" thought.

Which if you are in a Group, Minor Breach should be taken care of already and Slow is ok-ish. But that's precisely why we want the Unstable Morph to be something different, more useful for DPS, like increased damage to chilled targets or chilled procs to targets on the Unstable AoE affect a larger area.

I generally think there are more interesting things they could do, away from the Major Minor Buff/Debuff system, that could be much more interesting with a bit of imagination

• Wall of Elements:
  • Unstable Wall of Elements (morph):
    • Unstable Wall of Frost: Chilled enemies while standing in Unstable Wall of Frost that take Frost Damage are afflicted with Hypothermia.

• New Status Effect:
  • Hypothermia: Enemies afflicted with Hypothermia take multiplicative stacking frost damage every 1 second for 4 seconds. This can be refreshed upwards to 8 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 16 seconds. This effect can be cleansed.
    • Damage Calculation:
      M = Initial damage hit that procced the status effect
      S = Subsequent damage ticks.

      • S = M * 0.1

      Each subsequent tick of damage deals an additional (multiplicative) 3% extra damage from the previous.
      
      Damage calculation is:
      
      First damage tick = S
      Second damage tick = 1.03 * S
      Third damage tick = (1.03)² * S
      Fourth damage tick = (1.03)³ * S
      Fifth damage tick = (1.03)⁴ * S
      Sixth damage tick = (1.03)⁵ * S
      Seventh damage tick = (1.03)⁶ * S
      Eighth damage tick = (1.03)⁷ * S
      
      If Hypothermia is inflicted again while an enemy is already affected, then the duration is extended by another 4 seconds with a cap at 8 seconds. The calculation can be reset from the beginning if the new initial damage hit (M) to trigger Hypothermia is 2.5x greater than the previous calculation's initial damage hit (M). This ensures strong abilities such as Ice Comet which would otherwise trigger Hypothermia do not go to waste.
      
      Example:
      
      Rakkhat, Fang of Lorkhaj is affected by chilled, then Unstable Wall of Frost explodes for 11 720 damage. Hypothermia procs:
      
      Tick 1: 1172 frost damage
      Tick 2: 1207 frost damage
      Tick 3: 1243 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 4: 1280 frost damage (normal end of calculation. However as it was re-applied above, we get another 4 seconds added going to 7 seconds, or 7 ticks of damage)
      Tick 5: 1318 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 6: 1357 frost damage
      Tick 7: 1397 frost damage
      Tick 8: 1438 frost damage

      • End of calculation. The target cannot be affected by Hypothermia for another 8 seconds, as in this calculation the target was affected by the full 8 second duration.

      
      Total damage done to enemy (excluding critical hits) = 10 412 frost damage.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

Thanks for the details, Kevin. Really do appreciate it. You mentioned they want to make it useful for more situations in PVE - which situations would those be?

I think they are putting the AoE Minor Breach and Slow as a "more useful for PvE" thought.

Which if you are in a Group, Minor Breach should be taken care of already and Slow is ok-ish. But that's precisely why we want the Unstable Morph to be something different, more useful for DPS, like increased damage to chilled targets or chilled procs to targets on the Unstable AoE affect a larger area.

I generally think there are more interesting things they could do, away from the Major Minor Buff/Debuff system, that could be much more interesting with a bit of imagination

Man I remember in the day being a noob and using an Ice Staff (before they made it a tank weapon). It was weak even then, but I really love Ice elements in games. I'd love DPS options on the staff .

IMO, something like this would be cool:

Destruction Staff:

• Wall of Elements:
  • Unstable Wall of Elements (morph):
    • Unstable Wall of Frost: Chilled enemies while standing in Unstable Wall of Frost that take Frost Damage are afflicted with Hypothermia.

Buffs and Debuffs:

• New Status Effect:
  • Hypothermia: Enemies afflicted with Hypothermia take multiplicative stacking frost damage every 1 second for 4 seconds. This can be refreshed upwards to 8 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 16 seconds. This effect can be cleansed.
    • Damage Calculation:
      M = Initial damage hit that procced the status effect
      S = Subsequent damage ticks.

      • S = M * 0.1

      Each subsequent tick of damage deals an additional (multiplicative) 3% extra damage from the previous.
      
      Damage calculation is:
      
      First damage tick = S
      Second damage tick = 1.03 * S
      Third damage tick = (1.03)² * S
      Fourth damage tick = (1.03)³ * S
      Fifth damage tick = (1.03)⁴ * S
      Sixth damage tick = (1.03)⁵ * S
      Seventh damage tick = (1.03)⁶ * S
      Eighth damage tick = (1.03)⁷ * S
      
      If Hypothermia is inflicted again while an enemy is already affected, then the duration is extended by another 4 seconds with a cap at 8 seconds. The calculation can be reset from the beginning if the new initial damage hit (M) to trigger Hypothermia is 2.5x greater than the previous calculation's initial damage hit (M). This ensures strong abilities such as Ice Comet which would otherwise trigger Hypothermia do not go to waste.
      
      Example:
      
      Rakkhat, Fang of Lorkhaj is affected by chilled, then Unstable Wall of Frost explodes for 11 720 damage. Hypothermia procs:
      
      Tick 1: 1172 frost damage
      Tick 2: 1207 frost damage
      Tick 3: 1243 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 4: 1280 frost damage (normal end of calculation. However as it was re-applied above, we get another 4 seconds added going to 7 seconds, or 7 ticks of damage)
      Tick 5: 1318 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 6: 1357 frost damage
      Tick 7: 1397 frost damage
      Tick 8: 1438 frost damage

      • End of calculation. The target cannot be affected by Hypothermia for another 8 seconds, as in this calculation the target was affected by the full 8 second duration.

      
      Total damage done to enemy (excluding critical hits) = 10 412 frost damage.

Blackbird_V wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

In chatting with the dev team, they provided some insight into Ice Staff. Ice Staff is a support weapon by design, so it is not intended to be optimal for every possible playstyle. Instead, the change addresses, as you accurately noted, making it less frustrating to fight in PvP and making it useful in more situations for PvE overall.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

Thanks for the details, Kevin. Really do appreciate it. You mentioned they want to make it useful for more situations in PVE - which situations would those be?

I think they are putting the AoE Minor Breach and Slow as a "more useful for PvE" thought.

Which if you are in a Group, Minor Breach should be taken care of already and Slow is ok-ish. But that's precisely why we want the Unstable Morph to be something different, more useful for DPS, like increased damage to chilled targets or chilled procs to targets on the Unstable AoE affect a larger area.

I generally think there are more interesting things they could do, away from the Major Minor Buff/Debuff system, that could be much more interesting with a bit of imagination

Man I remember in the day being a noob and using an Ice Staff (before they made it a tank weapon). It was weak even then, but I really love Ice elements in games. I'd love DPS options on the staff .

IMO, something like this would be cool:

Destruction Staff:

• Wall of Elements:
  • Unstable Wall of Elements (morph):
    • Unstable Wall of Frost: Chilled enemies while standing in Unstable Wall of Frost that take Frost Damage are afflicted with Hypothermia.

Buffs and Debuffs:

• New Status Effect:
  • Hypothermia: Enemies afflicted with Hypothermia take multiplicative stacking frost damage every 1 second for 4 seconds. This can be refreshed upwards to 8 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 16 seconds. This effect can be cleansed.
    • Damage Calculation:
      M = Initial damage hit that procced the status effect
      S = Subsequent damage ticks.

      • S = M * 0.1

      Each subsequent tick of damage deals an additional (multiplicative) 3% extra damage from the previous.
      
      Damage calculation is:
      
      First damage tick = S
      Second damage tick = 1.03 * S
      Third damage tick = (1.03)² * S
      Fourth damage tick = (1.03)³ * S
      Fifth damage tick = (1.03)⁴ * S
      Sixth damage tick = (1.03)⁵ * S
      Seventh damage tick = (1.03)⁶ * S
      Eighth damage tick = (1.03)⁷ * S
      
      If Hypothermia is inflicted again while an enemy is already affected, then the duration is extended by another 4 seconds with a cap at 8 seconds. The calculation can be reset from the beginning if the new initial damage hit (M) to trigger Hypothermia is 2.5x greater than the previous calculation's initial damage hit (M). This ensures strong abilities such as Ice Comet which would otherwise trigger Hypothermia do not go to waste.
      
      Example:
      
      Rakkhat, Fang of Lorkhaj is affected by chilled, then Unstable Wall of Frost explodes for 11 720 damage. Hypothermia procs:
      
      Tick 1: 1172 frost damage
      Tick 2: 1207 frost damage
      Tick 3: 1243 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 4: 1280 frost damage (normal end of calculation. However as it was re-applied above, we get another 4 seconds added going to 7 seconds, or 7 ticks of damage)
      Tick 5: 1318 frost damage
      -- New tick of damage from Unstable Wall of Frost dealt to chilled enemy. Hypothermia calculation is extended by another 4 seconds, for 4 more damage ticks. It's still capped at 8.
      Tick 6: 1357 frost damage
      Tick 7: 1397 frost damage
      Tick 8: 1438 frost damage

      • End of calculation. The target cannot be affected by Hypothermia for another 8 seconds, as in this calculation the target was affected by the full 8 second duration.

      
      Total damage done to enemy (excluding critical hits) = 10 412 frost damage.

Very interesting idea. Looks neat.

Yeah not as broken as it looks. Considering if it goes on cooldown and then you use a fat Ice Comet for 64k crit, you won't get the stacking damage bleed starting from 6400 damage. Still somewhat gives Ice a damage option, and if lucky you can deal an absurd amount of damage. I JUST WANT TO DPS WITH ICE STAFF [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

OBJnoob wrote: »

When they first made the change I really thought I was supposed to use a lot of frost damage abilities. I later realized that there really aren't enough frost damage abilities to fill an offense. When I stopped trying to use frost damage my build became much better.

I think it's kinda a wrong view that because you're using a frost staff you have to do frost damage. The bonus to damage done replaced a bonus to damage type. It is perhaps recommended to use a frost staff but NOT do frost damage. On my pvp build I use beetles for magic damage, arterial burst for magic damage, and dawnbreaker for physical. All receive the damage bonus from using a frost staff-- no real reason for them to be frost damage.

If your only goal is to apply the chilled status effect there are ways to do that without going full frost. My warden uses hrothgars-- free AoE chilled and brittle every 8 seconds. I use gripping shards to proc it when my ultimate isn't up.

Then of course there's ice reach or whatever it's called... Commonly used in conjunction with the corresponding arena weapon, but a free chilled/brittle proc with or without.

Or you could just use force pulse as a spammable, get fairly frequent chilled procs from that alone plus the other two status effects as well.

I dunno I'm just not sure why people's goal is to proc chilled over and over like it's the new combustion passive or something. Just because something is available doesn't mean you have to lean on it super heavily. There are guaranteed ways to proc it... Again, namely, ice reach/clench. Trying to fill your bar with frost damage isn't really beneficial so I'm confused on why people are trying.

I see no real reason for it? Being tied to a frost staff is bad enough, I thought we all agreed. Being tied to a frost staff AND frost damage would be even worse.

Also... More of a question than a statement... But don't Destro staves light attacks deal their damage type? Or do they do magic damage? If ice staff LAs do frost damage then there's yet another easy way to be proccing chilled.

Honestly if there was a decent magic damage ultimate available I'd be using a War Maidens frost staff right now. "War Maidens Frost Staff," is a weird sentence... But it about sums up my take on the whole thing.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I hope we might see a change next week but I'm kinda doubting it after the response from kevin.